Germany's leading role in arming Iraq

Atimes | 2.4.03 | Marc Ericson

[Michael81Dus]

To use this graphic in Germany is a crime under German law and will be persecuted by the attorney. I am not allowed to use it - just to tell you how free I am.

[americanbychoice]

Michael, you know that the BND has given their info. to the Government and such to Schroeder himself.

[Enemy Of The State]

ok, just ping me and put (insert graphic here) ;)

[Michael81Dus]

Yes, but that was AFTER these delieveries happened.

[An.American.Expatriate]

According to the report the BND has been monitoring this since the 1980's, which emans that both the Kohl and Schröder Governments have had knoweldge of this.

No one is denying that the US supported Saddam during his war with Iraq. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the equipment he had/has was at one time purchased from US companies.

What is damning in this report is that fact that Schröder & Co. are purposely deceiving the public and the world.

I find it quite interesting that, during all the years the "evil" CDU was in controll, the only major use of the German Army was a humanitarian mission (Somalia), even though the Germans may have had valid interests elsewhere. Then, no sooner do Schöder & Fischer come to power (traditional pacifists!) - boom war in Kosovo. Anyone know who the big winner was there? Deutsche Telekom! And now, when Schröder knows for a fact that Saddam is viloating numerous UN resolutions.....

One last point Micheal, please stop using the rhetoric of the left when presenting your case. Germany was never a satallite of the US. Germany is and was an equal partner in NATO. Other than the few years of occupation after then war (and Berlin until 1990), Germany was not subjected to edicts from Washington or any other such rubish.

[Michael81Dus]

"What is damning in this report is that fact that Schröder & Co. are purposely deceiving the public and the world."

Correct. Mr. Pflügler does a good job.
Yes, of course the Fed. Rep. of Germany is and has always been a ally of the US. I wanted to express by calling us satellites, that we did nothing "Big Brother" didn´t know. You know, you watch our steps everywhere we go.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Micheal, your last statement is simply not true! While there was a great deal of cooperation between the FRG and the US in most governmental areas, there was never a requirement to do so. To state otherwise implies that, if the US had not been "happy" with a particular decision in Germany, that the US could have somehow forced you to make a different one.

[Michael81Dus]

I said you watch our steps, and that is correct. How do you conclude from my words that we were compelled to work with you? We had no alternative than doing so and have none today. So why bother? It´s not the worst decision made in our young countrys history.

[longjack]

Post 17 - I think it´s naive the way you´re talking about the German government. Even if the government knew what was going on (you should prove that first)

Post 21 - To use this graphic in Germany is a crime under German law and will be persecuted by the attorney. I am not allowed to use it - just to tell you how free I am.

Michael:

My interpretation:

1. The government wouldn't/didn't/couldn't know if one sold weapons/dual purpose materials/weapons building componbents, etc. to a foreign country. (post 17)

2. The government would find out if one posted an illegal graphic on a foreign website. (post 21)

?

Also, Michael: I posted a reply to a post a week or so back about government agencies (most likely BND) monitoring phone calls for key words. I read that in a German paper a few years back, I think. Do you know if that is accurate or not?

longjack

[Michael81Dus]

As a student of law I will not break the law - no matter if the state knows it or not.

The BND does not listen to all our phonecalls (forbidden by the constitution), but of suspicious people. That´s what you´ve probably read. The NSA has a huge modern facility in Germany to monitor phonecalls from and to Germany - and our government has no chance to get them away. If you leave Germany, our phonecalls will be safier, I´m sure.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Again, this is a bit misleading Micheal. The NSA has facilites in Germany that monitor calls and radio etc from all over Europe, not just Germany.

The BND is generally prohibited from Wire Tapping, but it is not just suspicious people who can be tapped. Anyone even remotely associated with a suspicious person can likewise be tapped. This was facilitated by "constitutional" ammendment back around 1998 or so (Grosser Lauschangriff = Big Eavesdropping).

[longjack]

"constitutional" ammendment back around 1998 or so

I was in Germany in 1998, that's when I read the news reports.

Thanks for the clarification A.A.E.

longjack

[Happy2BMe]

Agreed it is "galling" about the Huns and the Galls making a profit off of WMD materials to Saddam.

Remember though, that American companies participated also - so the US is not "squeaky" clean either.

Just pointing that out. And the list of American companies selling WMD materials to Iraq were quilte long and included major American companies (Ratheon, Motorola, etc.).

[Michael81Dus]

"Misleading" - because I see the truth without pink glasses? Even worse, that the NSA (10 times bigger than the CIA I´ve read) has these possibilities to tap whole Europe here. BTW - now we´ve found another important reason why the US troops won´t leave Germany.

The Big Eavesdropping was in March 1998, correct. In addition to your words, this tapping must be allowed by a judge and only beyond reasonable doubt.

[An.American.Expatriate]

No, misleading because you said it was monitoring calls to and from Germany which is not the entire truth. These Facilities are there with the full knowledge and approval of your government. If you don't like them, tell your government to request thier removal. Please remember though, these facilities helped end the cold war and continue to provide valuable security for your people, europeans in general, and of course the US.

BTW, the reason the troops haven't left is because their presence is required by NATO. Indeed, when the US did begin drawing down the same groups who earlier protested us being there, suddenly wanted us to stay so the jobs wouldn't be lost and other adverse impacts on your economy.

[Michael81Dus]

Don´t present America as the altruistic nation. I don´t like having these facilities here and if it would mean that all US soldiers will leave Germany, then feel free to move! I hate spies, in particular from "friendly" nations.

[Enemy Of The State]

Oh yes, I would never infer that the US is totally innocent of doing such things. We are usually just a little more sneaky about it.

In fact, If I remember correctly there are a couple of firms (Hughes and Boeing) that are currently in trouble for such technology transfers to China.

[An.American.Expatriate]

I'm sorry Micheal, you're absolutely right. America is a self serving, arrogant, imperialist oppressor.

I mean, just look what America has done over the last hundred years for world peace and security - NADA.
When Europe was threatened twice in the early to mid 1900's America, not wanting to risk the blood of it's young men and women, sat back and let Germany take over Europe.
A few years later, as the USSR threatened to impose communism all over the world - again America sat back and twiddled thier thumbs.

Not once, in all of it's ignoble history has American ever come to the aid of any nation or people, no matter how loud they begged.

Instead, American used the oppurtunity to oppress and subjugate the people. Once the imperialist americans had squeazed the life blood out of a country, it simply discarded them and left them to thier fate.

And of course no one could ever accuse Americans of being "humantitarian" - no way. From 1962 through 2002, instead of speading $733'380'895'773 (based on 1996 Dollars) on Direct Foreign Humanitarian Aid, the greedy Americans used that money for themselves to buy luxary goods to mock the rest of the world.

It's best to just round up any stray Americans you may find lurking around (they could be imperialist spies sent to sabotage your wonderful workers paradise!!) and ship them off to some penal colony somewhere - theres not an ounce of good in any of them. < / rant >

[Michael81Dus]

I think a discussion with you is no longer reasonable, since you´re diverting from my reproach. The US abuse their intelligences for economical advantage, don´t negate it.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Micheal,

every country in the world uses it's intelligence services to thier own advantage and every country in the world spies on every other country in the world. This is life.

You initially claimed that the listening posts in Germany were there to spy on YOU, although they were built during the cold war to spy "primarily" on "THEM". I merely corrected this point.

Later you stated that you wanted them to go. I said fine, but please remember the good they have done for you, europe and of course the US.

Then you state that America is not "altruistic". This was the basis for my "rant".

I ahve no quarrel with you wanting troops to leave germany, nor do I have a problem with you wanting such installations removed. I DO have a problem when you revert to the tactics of the left by claiming that america is imperialistic, a hegemon, selfish and others. The facts don't stand up under scrutiny and force others on this forum to doubt you sincerity.