The Salon Interview: Camille Paglia

Salon.com ^ | 2/7/03 | David Talbot

[andrew]

The Salon Interview: Camille Paglia Bad omen: Why the Columbia disaster should make Bush think twice about rushing to war with Iraq.

- - - - - - - - - - - - By David Talbot

Feb. 7, 2003 |

Camille Paglia is a rarity in the increasingly polarized world of public intellectuals, a high-profile thinker and writer who is not readily identified with any political camp or party line. She burst onto the scene in 1990 following the publication of her book, "Sexual Personae." Paglia was a rough-trade feminist not afraid to challenge the orthodoxy of the women's movement or its reigning sisterhood; a professor from a small college with no qualms about torching the Parisian academic trends then enthralling Ivy League humanities departments; a self-proclaimed "Democratic libertarian" who voted twice for Bill Clinton and then loudly denounced him for bringing shame to his office.

Given Paglia's originality and unpredictability, we had no idea what to expect when we phoned her earlier this week for her opinions on the Bush administration's looming war with Iraq. Paglia proudly describes herself as a Dionysian child of the '60s, a generation not known for its martial spirit. And yet, during her long run as a Salon columnist, she developed an enthusiastic following among conservatives, including retired and active military personnel, for her eloquent tributes to family, tradition, country and uniformed service, as well as her stop-your-blubbering take on modern American life.

Paglia retired her Salon column last year to focus on teaching -- she is university professor of humanities and media studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia - and to finish her fifth book, a study of poetry that will be published by Pantheon Books. She returns in the Salon Interview to reveal her opinions on Iraq for the first time. "The foreign press has asked me repeatedly to comment on Iraq, and I've said I don't think it's right as an American citizen to do that. I said I should reserve my criticisms of the administration for home consumption," said Paglia. "That's why I'm talking to you now."

Click the source above for article.

[kerberos3]

Go FreeRepublic !!!!!!! Referenced on Drudge. Why not reference the original article though?

Go Freepers !!!!!

BTW...Paglia is an idiot.

[Henk]

This is Salon Premium content and really should not have been posted here. It needs to be removed. Haven't we learned this the hard way once?

[Cicero]

Just one word for Paglia on this one: weak.

Who would have thought that self-proclaimed diesel-dyke Paglia would take such a feeble, even a dull and conformist, stand? It's as if she read every wimpy article in the liberal media and sucked it up without a thought.

[Rocko]

I'll never forgive her for celebrating the Clinton/Reno blitzkrieg in Miami.

[GeorgeWBiscuit]

Wow! Drudge linking directly to Free Republic. Talk about moving on up.

[dirtboy]

I have some advice to Camille - take her check from Salon for this interview straight to the bank.

[steve-b]

Already posted here.

(Admin Moderator pinged to lock duplicate thread.)

[Russell Scott]

Hard for a Zebra to change it stripes on real issues. That’s why I love this Iraq situation. It’s a great barometer of where people are coming from.

[The_Reader_David]

Actually, unlike most lefties, who are idiots and fancy themselves clever, I have the impression Paglia really is too clever for her own good. For one thing she writes way better than most leftists, and for another, she seems to have a sense of humor.

[ricpic]

Subtle bitch, isn't she?!

[Cicero]

They probably gave her 20,000 shares of stock.

[Cicero]

Should the Admin Moderator lock the thread Drudge has linked to?

[Shermy]

However, I'm extremely upset about our rush to war at the present moment.

What rush? This is the French/Saudi/Daschle line, hoping that delay will end up with no action, like in 1998. This whole charade has less to do with Bush and Hussein than French and Russian fears their Saddam approved oil contracts will be revoked, and Saudi strategic policy to keep Iraqi oil production depressed while they assume the Iraqi shortfalls of previous OPEC allotments. It's called "containment" ie, money for Saudi and France.

Don't take it from me, hear it from an OPEC official himself:

The ideal outcome for Russia is exactly the same as that for Saudi Arabia and OPEC, i.e. maintenance of the status quo and the sanctions regime on Iraqi oil. Thus, Russia's opposition to a U.S. invasion of Iraq is completely rational.
It would be an irony indeed if events in Baghdad this winter were to signal the end of the modern oil era and OPEC, just as 42 years ago they saw its start

If there truly were an authentic international coalition that had been carefully built, and if the administration had demonstrated sensitivity to the fragility of international relations, I'd be 100 percent in favor of an allied military expedition to go into Iraq and find and dispose of all weapons of mass destruction.

Again, the French/Saudi/Daschle delay tactic. Totally disconnected from reality, totally connected to some lefty and ill-informed media hypothecations. Jeez, our receptionist who doesn't follow the news much knows that we have allies. At least Paglia doesn't use the word "unilateral" - a slogan of the ignorant.

But most members of the current administration seem to have little sense that there's an enormous, complex world beyond our borders.

"Seem"...meaning what columnists did she read to filter the information for her? Another example of media-privileged "intellectuals" wrapt up in their own daily business, but speaking with "authority" about something some teenager with a computer has a better understanding of. Maybe she reading too many French representations of America and our admin.

The president himself has never traveled much in his life.

Sniff...nose in air.

They seem to think the universe consists of America and then everyone else -- small-potatoes people who can be steamrolled. And I'm absolutely appalled at the lack of acknowledgment of the cost to ordinary Iraqi citizens of any incursion by us, especially aerial bombardment.

Let me guess ... their "voices" aren't beang "heard" because some American newspaper doesn't talk about them enough? I'm surprised, she's just reacting to the patina of media representations and interests as if it reflected some reality.

Regime change

That's been US policy since 1998.

[dirtboy]

They probably gave her 20,000 shares of stock.

Probably dropped $200 in total value by the time she got to the door.

[Norman Arbuthnot]

Wow! Drudge linking directly to Free Republic. Talk about moving on up.

Actually, Drudge listed FR in his resources column a couple of years ago and then decided to take the FR link down. Who knows why? I think some of the views expressed on FR maybe a little too hardcore right-wing for Drudge.

[jimbo123]

Drudge delinked to FreeRepublic a longtime ago. Didn't like the competition, it seems.

[jimbo123]

Someone should ask Drudge about why his website has been running ads for a website that sells old videos that would be of high entertainment value to Senator Robert Byrd.

[Drango]

Infiniti is one of the few advertisers left on Salon. To help Salon get below .05 cents a share....send Infinite a comment. Ask why they are funding this vulgar site that hates America, hates our military and hates our values?

Tell 'em your a rich Republican and you'll never drive one of their cars! Link: Infiniti

[marts]

You have to tip your hat to her for her "ominous" reading of the shuttle disaster. That was, at the very least, one of the creepiest arguments for rethinking a full-throttle, speedy assault I've come across yet.

[RobFromGa]

Under the previous SLIMEBALL administration, here's how we would have known it was an ORANGE alert:

This is what she would have worn yesterday:

And watch out for this outfit.

[rrcobra]

What a self absorbed crock....

[canuck_conservative]

Camilla Paglia is one bizarre package.

She's pro-war, but wanted the antiwar demonstrations to succeed. She's understands "tribal politics", but then can't comprehend how the US could be fired up by 9-11. She likes Condi's strength, but then complains she's too macho. And on it goes ....

And that comment about the shuttle "omen" over Texas - she's one weird woman.

[RobFromGa]

Here is why Ms. anti-American Paglia uses a cartoon:

[ggekko]

Ping.

Geostrategy has never been Camille's strong suit. She always showed her best and most surpirsing talents in analyzing the psyches of world leaders.

What Camille doesn't seem to grasp is that Saddam is following a assymetric warfare strategy in which his objective is to acquire WMDs the goal of which is to make him immune from Great Power attack. Having achieved his first goal Saddam would then be free to pursue a strategy of regional domination and thereby become the reincarnation of King Nebuchadnezzar (which his view of himself) .

Britain and France could have stopped Hitler at little cost when, in contravention of the Versailles treay, he annexed Austria. But they waited and dithered and hoped for more International consensus. Eventually the cost to Britain and France became immense.

We do not need to follow their example.

[Dialup Llama]

Could use a bit more sun, maybe some exercise, how about eating at least once a day?

[Dialup Llama]

Disney's animatronic robotics are getting really good, almost lifelike.

[Dialup Llama]

>You have to tip your hat to her for her "ominous" reading of the shuttle disaster. That was, at the very least, one of the creepiest arguments for rethinking a full-throttle, speedy assault I've come across yet.

Its all they discuss on what's left of the Art Bell show.

[ggekko]

Ping.

Geostrategy has never been Camille's strong suit. She always showed her best and most surpirsing talents in analyzing the psyches of world leaders.

What Camille doesn't seem to grasp is that Saddam is following a assymetric warfare strategy in which his objective is to acquire WMDs the goal of which is to make him immune from Great Power attack. Having achieved his first goal Saddam would then be free to pursue a strategy of regional domination and thereby become the reincarnation of King Nebuchadnezzar (which his view of himself) .

Britain and France could have stopped Hitler at little cost when, in contravention of the Versailles treay, he annexed Austria. But they waited and dithered and hoped for more International consensus. Eventually the cost to Britain and France became immense.

We do not need to follow their example.

[thwack]

"They seem to think the universe consists of America and then everyone else -- small-potatoes people who can be steamrolled."

Is she talking about how the lefties view the many European countries (other than France and Germany) that are on board with the "unilateralist" policy of the United States?

[Bobby777]

Disney's animatronic robotics are getting really good, almost lifelike.

yes, but for some reason, the women still look like men ... odd ...

[The Great Satan]

What Camille doesn't seem to grasp is that Saddam is following a assymetric warfare strategy in which his objective is to acquire WMDs the goal of which is to make him immune from Great Power attack.

And what everybody else fails to grasp is that he has already achieved this goal.

[big bad easter bunny]

I have to disagree, she is not an idiot. She is the opposite, she is very bright. Reading her book, you will need an unabridged Oxford dictionary to get through even a page or two. I guess you already read it.

[TheMole]

I originally discovered FR through the "Whitewater File" link on Drudge. I believe Drudge delinked because he got flamed and insulted by idiots and trolls coming from this site. Drudge still links to a remarkable plethora of conservative sites. it would be nice if he relinked, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Kenny Bunk]

You know, I had never been able to figure out why the Left considers Drudge (or us) so "Right Wing."

We are the modern "Reader's Digest." Where else could any concerned individual scan so many news sources so efficiently. The Freepers are to the right, but hardly uniform in our views.

I think what is pissing off the left is they had control of access to what was mainstream news for decades. When their dirty little secret came out, i.e. they never print the important news in its entirety, and they never print some of the most important news at all.

When the people of the country can see everything by trading news with each other, these bastards haven't a chance.

[lainie]

Perhaps everyone that WAILS about Drudge not linking FR will shut up for awhile.

[lainie]

I think you're absolutely right -- and an example is last week, when a rallying cry from some parrot lefties became "Take Back The Media." Can it be put any more succinctly?

[jejones]

Interesting--and also depressing to see someone normally pretty rational go on so about the Columbia's explosion as an evil omen.

[pook]

Paglia's book 'Sexual Personae' had an incredible influence on me. I recognized myself in her 'Pagan Beauty' chapter... she infected me with realizing I was a 'beautiful boy'. Her thoughts later aided my metamorphosis like something out of Ovid.

The next few years, in my spare time, I've been studying sexuality and I've found some of the same conclusions as Paglia but many more unturned stones.

Paglia's thoughts on Iraq are completely predictable. Here's why:

Ever since the beginning, people have always thought themselves controlled in some way. People turned rivers, volcanos, clouds, and the sun into gods. Others imagined a grand prince who would tend his nation like a gardener does his garden. And as a gardener has his hooks and shears, so does the prince have his laws, regulations, and armies.

People view tyranny as a 'slavery'. But when someone like Moses freed people from slavery, they still reverted to a paganism and demanded that Moses act like a prince. They even created a golden calf to control them. Throughout Chinese history, the pattern is cyclical. The people thought the emperor to be a 'prince' and to 'control' them. Alas, an earthquake or flood occurs and the prince is thrown out with another taken in his place.

The point of what I'm getting at is that most of Human history, man has thought himself controlled rather than free. He places his destiny in a prince or god. This is why for thousands of years, humanity often starved or perished from the elements (or slaughtered each other in stupid wars).

This is the fruit of classical education: the notion of a prince to control people from Plato's 'philosopher kings' on up to Rousseau.

Man knowing himself free has happened in spurts and spasms throughout history. But a nation did so here a couple of centuries ago, and the world forever changed.

There is an intellectual fashion to say or try to prove that Humankind is CONTROLLED by something. Some people say speech and media controls us and alters us. Others say everything is a matter of psychology. Yet, a few say that it is entirely our environment. A more popular idea coming forth now is that GENETICS controls us. Whatever it is, it is that Humanity is under control of some 'authority' and free will is an illusion.

Paglia believes that Humankind is under some authority. She gives it the name of 'nature' with 'sexuality' pulling the rug from our lofty ideals.

I live in north Texas. I heard the explosion and looked up at the brilliant sky. I know that Columbia blew apart due to some malfunction, perfectly reasonable and caused by error. Paglia insists that it is an 'action' from the 'Authority'. She then digs into classical romanism to say that the romans would think that. Of course they would! They believed everyone was under an authority as does Paglia.

This is the grounding reason, no matter what evidence is present nor how damning it is, why people insist on going through the UN or some coalition. They still demand some 'authority'. But diplomacy is a made up world of theories and more theories. Oh, how I wish I could move to this World of Theory all the intellectuals come from! For in Theory, everything is correct.

This rooting for some 'authority' is the same everywhere for these people (to them, Democracy means creating a god whose name is Will of the People and we see his scriptures in charts, polls, and such).

The American Revolution has turned global. People are learning that they do not live under some authority, that they possess free will. THESE are what cults like extreme like Islam hate (remember, they believe Allah is the 'authority' and sets the destiny for them all!). The technology unleashed from this revolution is wonderous. But the old school of thought will use them to their own ends. The tank was meant for farming. They made it into a weapon. On 9/11, we saw airplanes (used solely for transportation) be turned into missiles. Box cutters became used to slit people's throats.

The same trend is following with biological technologies. Paglia can believe in some great overall 'authority' that controls. But I will believe that we are free people, independent, who are composed with life, liberty, and the quest for joyfulness. We will tell these authority worshipers that freedom is not the cutting of chains or food stamps. Freedom is a matter of mind where people take up their own responsibilities and tell the leaders what to do, rather than dumping responsibility on a leader and have him tell us what to do. One day, it will become absurd to blame a politician for the faults of the economy just as it is now to blame a politician for hail and frost.

Ms. Paglia, you will not place a crown on Nature. We don't see your 'authorities' which is why the commentary seems silly as a child demanding he go ask Santa Clause before he acts.

What you call arrogance, I call independence. What you call destiny, I call a matter of will. And what you call extremism, I call a day's work.

[gcoolidge]

I've always found her to be an independent thinker and thought-provoking. very refreshing actually - an objective, intelligent liberal who, above all, does not subscribe to the liberal orthodoxy (or anyone else's, for that matter).

[tet68]

Very Good!

[Viking2002]

OK, I only made it to page two, and hit the silk.

'Libertarian Democrat' - there's a friggin' oxymoron, if I've ever heard one. Next.

[lainie]

The Camille Paglia Checklist

So, you've missed the beginning of this interview and don't know whether it's Camille Paglia or not? Nothing simpler than that. Just fill out this handy checklist, and the revolutionary Pagliameter will do the work for you!

• Is she talking about herself?
• Does she contrast something Judeo­Christian with something Pagan?
• Something Apollonian and something Dionysian?
• Hardcore porn is great?
• Mainstream feminism sucks?
• Foucault's an overvalued fake?
• Art is porn?

Follow the link to use the Pagliameter.

[lainie]

If I could, I would assign everyone to watch "Gone With the Wind" -- which is dismissed these days as an apologia for slavery. But that movie beautifully demonstrates the horrors of war. Everyone is so wildly enthused for war at the start, but Ashley Wilkes says, "At the end of a war, no one remembers what they're fighting for." It shows the destruction of a civilization, the slaughter of a whole generation of young men, and people reduced to squalid, animal-like subsistence conditions. And that's what's missing right now, as we prepare to march off to Baghdad -- a recognition of the horrors and tragic waste of war.

How can anyone take her seriously with this? (Everyone?) She is telling me I don't understand the gravity of war and need to use GWTW to get my education?

[faithincowboys]

perhaps I am as kooky as camille. I also saw a message in the space shuttle tragedy. how could you not? a fatal shuttle flight with the first israeli astronaut (one who bombed the Iraqi osirak nuclear plant no less), an indian american(hindu) and at least one devout christan (Rick Husband-flight commander)that occurs in the sky over Texas
(partly Palestine) in a shuttle called Columbia (Columbus
found america-- but you know that). the whole thing is rod serling weird. most interesting was the cause of the accident, a problem on the left wing-- likely to be the achilles heel of all three countries. the american left, israeli left and indian left will be very dangerous in the struggle ahead.

I think out of the horrfic tragedy the citizens of all 3 countries have realized that we will shed and draw blood together, dream and live and die together. we have common fates.

No one goes to war happily, we all should and must have trepidation. Could everything go terribly wrong--yes, it's possible. but perhaps it is a beautifully naieve and very
american belief, but evil will not win. it's the difference between us and the french. when the nazis came in, the french believed that their fate was to be a part of hitler's reich and as a result practiced the ways of their occupiers. we ,and the brits, are different, exceptional...we said no, "we can win, we must confront evil." during the cold war, the global left lost faith in our way of life and got seduced by communistic fascism. Lonely and brave people like reagan stood up to that evil and millons were liberated. now the global left tells us that we shouldn't challenge saddam and ,to lift from michael ledeen, the terror masters, but we must, we have no choice in the matter. there will never be a better time.the only deterrent we have in this new normal is regime change.
if the terror masters send terrorsts to kill us, it will not do to just kill the terrorists. the deterrent is to kill or overthrow the mullahs, the dictators, the leaders
of these homicidal states.

the evil will not win. and despite what hollyweird and the lefty intellectuals think we are not the evil ones. as we mourn our dead (the columbia crew) they celebrated.
we send people into space for the betterment of mankind, they send their young to die and kill. the difference couldn't be starker and barbarians like that will never win.
we are on the side of freedom and freedom must win.

[faithincowboys]

i did really appreciate her saying that if war is inevitable, we must support those in harms way and maintain our nat'l morale-- 2 very important things. that separates her from 99.9% of the anti-war movement who are hellbent
on demoralizing our troops and our country.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

I was intrigued by the three Paglia books I have read. She does have brilliant insight about art, literature and human nature. My dear Camille is way off base on this one.

According to Ms. Paglia's previously stated admiration for pagan beauty, she ignored the application of Aristotle's logic.

The space shuttle Columbia has no relation to Iraq. This huge red herring cannot be hauled up by the fishing trawler rig Madeline Albright uses to get into her girdle.

Equating the Columbia disaster with an omen or some supernatural event is best derscribed by the words of Thomas Hobbes:

Part IV. Of the Kingdom of Darkness

Chap. xlv. Of Demonology and other Relics of the Religion of the Gentiles.

[10] Another relic of Gentilism is the worship of images, neither instituted by Moses in the Old, nor by Christ in the New Testament; nor yet brought in from the Gentiles; but left amongst them, after they had given their names to Christ. Before our Saviour preached, it was the general religion of the Gentiles to worship for gods those appearances that remain in the brain from the impression of external bodies upon the organs of their senses, which are commonly called ideas, idols, phantasms, conceits, as being representations of those external bodies which cause them, and have nothing in them of reality, no more than there is in the things that seem to stand before us in a dream. And this is the reason why St. Paul says, "We know that an idol is nothing": not that he thought that an image of metal, stone, or wood was nothing; but that the thing which they honored or feared in the image, and held for a god, was a mere figment, without place, habitation, motion, or existence, but in the motions of the brain. And the worship of these with divine honour is that which is in the Scripture called idolatry, and rebellion against God. For God being King of the Jews, and His lieutenant being first Moses, and afterward the high priest, if the people had been permitted to worship and pray to images (which are representations of their own fancies), they had had no further dependence on the true God, of whom there can be no similitude; nor on His prime ministers, Moses and the high priests; but every man had governed himself according to his own appetite, to the utter eversion of the Commonwealth, and their own destruction for want of union. And therefore the first law of God was: they should not take for gods, alienos deos, that is, the gods of other nations, but that only true God, who vouchsafed to commune with Moses, and by him to give them laws and directions for their peace, and for their salvation from their enemies. And the second was that they should not make to themselves any image to worship, of their own invention. For it is the same deposing of a king to submit to another king, whether he be set up by a neighbour nation or by ourselves.

[14] An image, in the most strict signification of the word, is the resemblance of something visible: in which sense the fantastical forms, apparitions, or seemings of visible bodies to the sight, are only images; such as are the show of a man or other thing in the water, by reflection or refraction; or of the sun or stars by direct vision in the air; which are nothing real in the things seen, nor in the place where they seem to be; nor are their magnitudes and figures the same with that of the object, but changeable, by the variation of the organs of sight, or by glasses; and are present oftentimes in our imagination, and in our dreams, when the object is absent; or changed into other colours, and shapes, as things that depend only upon the fancy. And these are the images which are originally and most properly called ideas and idols, and derived from the language of the Grecians, with whom the word eido signifieth to see. They are also called phantasms, which is in the same language, apparitions. And from these images it is that one of the faculties of man's nature is called the imagination. And from hence it is manifest that there neither is, nor can be, any image made of a thing invisible.

[15] It is also evident that there can be no image of a thing infinite: for all the images and phantasms that are made by the impression of things visible are figured. But figure is quantity every way determined, and therefore there can be no image of God, nor of the soul of man, nor of spirits; but only of bodies visible, that is, bodies that have light in themselves, or are by such enlightened.

[16] And whereas a man can fancy shapes he never saw, making up a figure out of the parts of divers creatures, as the poets make their centaurs, chimeras and other monsters never seen, so can he also give matter to those shapes, and make them in wood, clay or metal. And these are also called images, not for the resemblance of any corporeal thing, but for the resemblance of some phantastical inhabitants of the brain of the maker. But in these idols, as they are originally in the brain, and as they are painted, carved moulded or molten in matter, there is a similitude of one to the other, for which the material body made by art may be said to be the image of the fantastical idol made by nature.

Hobbes was aware of the tactical rhetoric of liberals way back in 1668...

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

See my comment, #48 above...

[giotto]

Great comments. Paglia is like so many other intelligent, once morally-grounded but now morally confused liberals who have occasional flashes of insight which they then attempt to expand on. But, using the faulty assumptions they learned in college and have never questioned, their arguments lack coherence and logic. This educated, analytical person builds her case on omens? I think she's been reading too much poetry.