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World War II Rescued American Airmen Defend Serbs [WARNING-GRAPHIC PHOTOS]
National Committee of American Airmen ^ | April 9, 1999 | Richard L. Felman

Posted on 02/07/2003 6:24:30 PM PST by Karadjordje


US airman under Serbian care


Award for Serbian Chetnik leader Dragoljub Mihailovich


Award for Serbian Chetnik leader Dragoljub Mihailovich


The cover of Time Magazine, May 25, 1942. Their article began: "He clasps the crag with crooked hands...he watches from his mountain walls, and like a thunderbolt he falls."

Open letter—April 9, 1999
To Our Troops In The Former Yugoslavia

"We Found Out The Truth About the Serbs...When We Were Shot Down"
World War II Rescued American Airmen Defend Serbs
By Richard L. Felman

Over 500 MlAs Saved By The Serbian People During WWII

During World War II, we were in the Army Air Corps list as "Missing in Action" in the very same area you are now serving.  If we may, we would like to relay to you a frank, soldier-to-soldier message about our personal experience while there—something which politicians who sent you there have not told you and something which you have not read or seen in the anti-Serb media.

In 1944, the members of our committee were flying bombing missions out of Italy over Southern Europe.  During that time over 500 of us were shot down over enemy-occupied Yugoslavia and saved from certain death by the Serbian people.  Ours was the greatest rescue of American lives from behind enemy lines in history but has been kept under wraps all these years because of pressure from foreign sources. [Emphasis added]

While we were there, those of us who were wounded were given whatever medical supplies they had even at the deprivation of their own troops.   If there was one piece of bread in the house, or one egg, it went to the American airmen while the Serb went hungry.

If there was one bed or one blanket, it went to us while the Serb slept on the bare ground.  No risk of sacrifice was too great to insure our safety and well being.  One experience which is forever seared in my memory is the time a village with 200 women and children was burned to the ground by the Germans because the Serbs would not tell them where they were hiding us.  To this day, I can smell the terrible stench of their burning flesh.  One does not forget such things.

The most incredible part of our rescue was that before each mission, our bomber crews were briefed by the highest levels of American intelligence that if shot down over Yugoslavia, we were to stay away from the Serbian people as they were collaborating with the Germans and "cutting off the ears of American airmen" before turning them over. Only after we were shot down did we find out the amazing thoroughness with which the truth about the Serbs was being distorted. [Emphasis added]

Further compounding this deception is the fact that while the Serbs were our allies in WWII, Croatians and Muslims (who we are favoring today) were allies of the Nazis, shooting at us and responsible for killing many of our fellow American fliers.  In view of the lies we were told about the Serbs during World War II, we could not help but wonder if our foreign policy there today is the same anti-Serb bias we encountered 52 years ago.

Could our career diplomats sacrifice former friends and reward former enemies in the name of political expediency?  Could it be because in the world community there are over one billion Muslims and only 9 million Serbian Orthodox Christians with the same proportionate power in the global economy?  Could it be because the Serbs have no oil wells and no unlimited oil money?

Could it be because the Croatians and Muslims outspend the Serbs 50 to one on lobbyists, media firms and campaign contributions?  Could this be why, "atrocities" are manufactured to make the Serbs look bad while gaining sympathy for their opponents?  Could this be why the Serbs are branded "aggressors" in land they have lived on for over 600 years? 

Could our policy have something to do with the fact there are 540 members of Congress, none of whom are Orthodox Christians?  Could the State Department’s bitter bias, against General Draza Mihailovich, the anti-Communist guerrilla leader who saved us, be based on the fact he was a Serb?

Could these be the reasons the State Department has covered up the truth of our rescue all these years and opposed our petition to express   gratitude for saving over 500 American lives (a petition which is supported by the 8 million veterans of the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign  Wars and the Air Force Association and which has been approved by the United States Senate.)?

Could it be these are the reasons the Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee has also denied our petition by saying to us here are "ethnic groups in Yugoslavia" who oppose it?

Are we mad?  You can bet your next month’s paycheck that we are mad!  We did not leave our families, risk our lives and watch our buddies get their arms, legs and heads blown off so that "ethnic groups in Yugoslavia" could tell us what we could or could not do in our own country.

Now that the spring thaw has set in, temperatures and tempers will start to rise in the volatile area you now find yourselves.  All we ask is that in your dealings with the local people you be made aware of the eyewitness experience of your fellow comrades-in-arms.  By speaking out now we have nothing to gain except a burning moral passion to tell the truth, a sworn duty to protect our national honor, a patriotic desire to express heart felt gratitude to those on foreign soil who save American lives while they are fighting in defense of our glorious country.

Now that you have been sent to foreign soil and asked to risk your lives we feel you should know the truth and not be "suckered in" by the rhetoric of highly paid public relations firms, foreign lobbyists and self-serving politicians who know absolutely nothing of the region’s history.

We might also add that had it not been for the Serbian people, Air Force General Donald J. Smith, our chairman and one our rescued airmen, would not have survived the war and been able to dedicate 40 years of honorable service to his country.

Had it not been for the Serbian people, technical Sgt. Curtis "Bud" Diles, another of our airmen, would not be alive today in Dayton, Ohio, enjoying retirement with his four children and 12 grandchildren.

There are hundreds of us with stories just like those.   Some of the greatest testimony to the many sacrifices made on our behalf us the many thousands of American children who are alive today solely because the Serbian people saved over 500 of their grandfathers during World War II.  Some of them could very well be serving with you today in Bosnia. 

I was one of three rescued American airmen who returned last year to the former Yugoslavia to commemorate the 50th anniversary of victory in Europe with the people who saved us and to visit the cow pasture that  served as a landing strip from which we were rescued.  The most moving  experience of our sentimental trip was being cheered by over 50,000 Serbs who gathered at a mountain top to welcome us and who kept chanting "USA, USA".

As American military men, we have a proud tradition of "duty, honor and country" to uphold and a fierce sense of loyalty to those with whom we fought side by side in combat.  We never forget their kindness nor do we return their battlefield sacrifices for us by bombing their women and children.  The Serbian people helped us when we were desperate and in trouble. Now that the situation is reversed we can do no less.

Please keep these untarnished truths in mind as you now serve our country and all it stands for, and may God bless you all as we pray for your safe return.

This war will not last long.  If for no other reason, it appears the US Forces are already running low on missiles.  And, Clinton’s blustering threats of "escorting the Albanian Kosovars back to their home" is silliness.

So far Clinton’s war has failed to even find ONE of Milosevic’s mobile units to shoot at.  How does he plan on personally escort back the reported 1,000,000 Albanians his spokespersons claim have fled the country?   The Serbs tied up 10 divisions of Hitler’s Crack troops—even after they lost the war.

If he continues the kind of bombing he conducted last couple of nights, he is going to lose the humanitarian war on CNN.  Pictures of mothers and newborn premature babies being evacuated from the hospital 100 yards from the Interior Ministry’s spectacular blaze, a father on the street being interviewed saying it was "easy for Clinton to drop bombs on the children from the skybut we will see what kind of man he is when he comes to our soil" or the flames from a residential area hit in last night’s bombing raids, are far more dramatic and horrifying than watching Albanian refugees who are riding trains to the border and walking across.

Pictures of bombs on civilian targets.  So far this week, over 1000 people are reported to have died so far in the bombing raids. That is a far higher death toll than Christiane Amanpour has been able to muster up in her drive to sell the Albanian side to a jaded, suspicious American public.

The world is seeing the results of the bombs.  The effort to portray the Serbs, as US News and World Report does in its April 12, 1999, issue on "Balkan Hell" as crazed killers is largely verbal so far.

Stories of "summary executions," US News and World Report noted, were hard to "prove" but are "quite credible given the Serbs’ vicious record.  These stories are being challenged by those, such as Col. Felman, USAF Ret., who have had personal experiences with the Serbs.

We are in a whole new kind of warfare, folks, and it appears that Milosevic has pretty much won it. It already sounds like the Clinton administration is trying to figure out who it can blame for the debacle.

Redacted for inclusion on this site.   Contact information:

Richard L. Felman Major USAF (Ret), President
National Committee of American Airmen
Rescued by General Mlhailovich, Inc.
PO Box 17478
Tuscon, Arizona 85731

DISCLAIMER: The content of this message is the sole responsibility of the originator. Posting of this message to the POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK © list does not show AIIPOWMIAI endorsement. It is provided so you may make an informed decision. AIIPOWMIAI is not associated in any capacity with any United States Government agency or entity, nor with any non-governmental organization.  Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc.1220 Locust Avenue, Bohemia, Long Island, New York 11716-2169 USA Voice: (1-516) 567-9057 Fax: (1-516) 244-7097 TDD: (1-516) 244-6996 E-mail: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com (Bob Necci) andi@earthlink.net (Andi Wolos) Website: http://www.aiipowmia.com/

Karadjordje


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: airman; balkans; campaignfinance; flyboys; kia; mia; mihailovic; mihailovich; pilots; ploesti; pow; serbs; truman; us; usaaf; usaf; yugoslavia
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1 posted on 02/07/2003 6:24:31 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
Wow, interesting read!
2 posted on 02/07/2003 6:26:17 PM PST by Excuse_My_Bellicosity
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To: MadIvan
Bump, Ivan.
3 posted on 02/07/2003 6:52:59 PM PST by xJones
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To: xJones
Back then (1999) I took part in an anti-intervention demonstration in Washington, D.C. Although I was completely soured by the way the left hijacked the demonstartion for their own purposes, I did meet and get to talk to a number of Serbian-Americans. Their anguish that their adopted country was doing this to their homeland was real and heart rending. I recall one man in particular. He was about my father's age, and he was holding a sign on which he proclaimed to be an ex-Partisan who had taken part in one of the rescue operations mentioned in the article above. "60 years ago, I helped save hundreds of American airmen's lives. Why are you bombing my grandchildren?" he asked me. I had no answer.

We may have choosen the wrong side in that fight. We may have been wrong to have chosen sides at all.

VietVet
4 posted on 02/07/2003 7:36:15 PM PST by VietVet
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To: VietVet
It was done under Clinton's presidency, which means no thought went into it.
5 posted on 02/07/2003 7:40:40 PM PST by xJones
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To: Karadjordje
GOD BLESS THE PEOPLE OF SERBIA who have been there for the USA in the past...And who know what it is to fight a war on terror... And to the people of our armed services who endured the hardship of capture..God be with you for you have been with him.. AND To clinton for fighting the wrong enemy in kosovo TO SHAME SLICKSTER TO SHAME!
6 posted on 02/07/2003 7:43:44 PM PST by DAPFE8900
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To: Karadjordje
Croatians are mostly Roman Catholic. Given your last name, you probably know that. Except for Venezuela, not too many Roman Catholics have oil.

Why did we stop the nice Orthodox Serbs from butchering Muslims? Maybe if you think about it for a while, you'll figure it out.
7 posted on 02/07/2003 8:02:08 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
They did NOT butcher any muslims...there was a civil war in 1991 and the Serbs gave as good as they got and rightly so....

NO muslims or NO croats saved ANY AMERICAN pilots in WWII...NEVER, not one.

In fact, the croats were nazis...some folks say they still are...the muslims, were nazis too and.... well....9/11 showed their muslim "true love" of AMERICANS!!

SERBS SAVED AMERICANS DURING WWII...WHILEST THE CROATS AND MUSLIMS GOOSE-STEPPED ALL AROUND WITH THEIR NAZI FRIENDS!!

SERBS SAVED AMERICANS FROM NAZI CROATS AND MUSLIMS!! HUZZAH!!!!HUZZAH FOR THE SERBS!!

8 posted on 02/07/2003 10:06:32 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Karadjordje; CobaltBlue; MarMema
THE LAST SERMON OF A GERMAN CLERGYMAN

Friedrich Griesendorf, who died in 1958, was a very educated man. He was, at one time, a court clergyman for the German Kaiser, Wilhelm II (1888-1918).

After World War II, he was a pastor in the Eversburg church parish where a camp of Serbian prisoners of war was located. Before retiring, he delivered these lines to his German parishioners:

"Our country lost the War. The English, Americans, and Russians won. Maybe they had much better equipment, larger armies, better leadership. In reality, it was an explicit material victory. They took that victory.

However, here among us is one nation that won another much more beautiful victory, a victory of the soul, a victory of the heart and honesty, a victory of peace and Christian love. They are the Serbs.

We knew them earlier, some a little and some not at all. But we all knew what we did in their homeland. We killed hundreds of the Serbs, who defended their country, for one of our soldiers who represented the occupier- the oppressor. And not only that, we looked favourably when others shot at the Serbs from all sides: the Croatians, the Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians, and Hungarians.

Yet we knew that among us in the prisoner of war camps were 5000 Serbian officers, who earlier were the elite of the society and who now resembled living skeletons, exhausted and spent from hunger.

We knew that among the Serbs smoldered the belief, 'He who does not revenge is not sanctified.'

We were truly afraid of the revenge by these Serbian martyrs. We were afraid that after our capitulation they would do what we did to them.

We imagined that tragedy and visualized our children floating dead in canals, or being roasted in the local bakery. We imagined murder, plunder, rape, demolition and destruction of our homes.

However, what happened? When the barbed wires were torn down and 5000 living Serbian skeletons found themselves free in our midst, those skeletons caressed our children.

Only now can we understand why our greatest poet, Goethe, studied the Serbian language.

Only now can we comprehend why the last word for Bismarck, on his deathbed, was - Serbia.

That kind of victory is more sublime than a material victory. It seems to me that only the Serbs could win such a victory, being brought up in their St. Sava's spirit and epic poetry, which our Goethe loved so much.

This victory will live for centuries in the souls of us Germans. I wanted to dedicate my last clergyman's sermon to that victory and the Serbs who won it."

9 posted on 02/07/2003 10:11:41 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Karadjordje
Sadly, Major Felman died in 1999....November, I believe.
10 posted on 02/07/2003 10:13:48 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: VietVet
I was there as well...I think I saw that sign or one like it, as well.
11 posted on 02/07/2003 10:16:03 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: crazykatz
Crazy, indeed, and crude revisionism. Some Serbs collaborated with the Nazis, some Croats and Bosnians fought the Nazis.

Worse, Serbs wanted, and many still want, to "cleanse" "Greater Serbia" of "racially inferior" Hungarians, Croats, Jews, Albanians, Catholics and Muslims.

Milosovic is a war criminal. I hope he's executed.
12 posted on 02/08/2003 8:51:28 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
Do you know David Binder?

No, ok he is an American jounalist who writes for the US Paper New York Times.

Read now what he writes about the serbs:


"David Binder

Thoughts About Serbs

Chicago - June 25, 2000

I have been thinking about Serbs for almost six decades - not every day, to be sure - but more and more in the last 30 years.

The first time I became aware of the people called Serbs was in 1942. Here in Illinois. I was 11 years old and I was already passionately interested in the course of World War II. My father was the foreign editor of The Chicago Daily News and his whole activity was devoted to the war. My brother had enlisted in the Army Air Force and my sister was soon to join the Navy. One day in the corner drugstore I picked up a comic book called War Comics and the main story in it was about the Chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic fighting the Nazis in Serbia and their bravery and self-sacrifice in battling the better armed Germans. I was dazzled. There was Col. Mihajlovic with his beard and wire-rimmed glasses. Here were people inside occupied Europe who dared for the first time to resist the mighty war machine of Hitler... not in France, not in Poland, not in Czechoslovakia, not in Holland, not in Scandinavia, but in Yugoslavia, in the Balkans. I talked with my father about those brave Serbs. Later in the war I read a bit about Tito and his Yugoslav Partisans. But it was Draza's Serbs who remained most vivid in my memory. ..."

read complete article (<- Click)

Oh yes, I believe you, Major Felman is a disgusting liar.

And also US journalist Binder is a disgusting liar.

I believe you, because you are a Muslim Albanian or perhaps a Muslim Bosnian (full of envy), like Clinton did it.

Karadjordje

13 posted on 02/08/2003 10:41:20 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
BlueCobalt will now turn from blue into green - he will get green with envy.



President Harry S. Truman


"General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslav Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory."

President Harry S. Truman, March 29, 1948

Karadjordje

14 posted on 02/08/2003 10:57:09 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
Karadjordje:

Excellent...excellent...I think old colbalt(tropi-jack@ss) turned just plain PUTRID GREEN...like the smoldering carcass' of those disgusting Croats....

THAT COMMIE:tito; THAT FASCIST: ante pavlic and THAT NATIONALIST-SERB HATING,COMMIE: trudjman!!!!

Now, more about WWII..

GOD ALREADY KNOWS WHAT CRIMES THE CROATIAN-NAZIS DID AT JASENOVAC CONCENTRATION CAMP....

MOST OF THOSE NASTY CROATIAN WAR CRIMINALS FROM WWII MAY HAVE ESCAPED EARTHY JUDGEMENT WHEN THEY RAN TO ARGENTINA, CHILE, BRAZIL, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, THE USA AND OTHER PLACES....

They may have grandchildren running around saying that the Croats did not willingly ally themselves with Hitler or that Jasenovac Camp existed only as a "work camp" and NOT the death camp it really was. BUT THE TRUTH IS:

THOSE CRIMINALS HAVE NOT ESCAPED GOD'S ETERNAL JUSTICE!!

OLD blue-green colbalt should... READ IT AND WEEP BIG TEARS....your croatian-nazis countymen/women have NOT escaped ETERNAL HELL FIRE!! tropi-jack/blue colbalt should pray for those criminals still alive.... that they ask GOD'S forgiveness, instead of denying their part in the HOLOCAUST!

And, colbalt wants Slobo hung....what a joke!! colbalt never suggested ANY disgust with Croatian nazis!! Like I said, some folks think the Croats still have a sizeable neo-nazi population. Hmmmmmmmmmm, do you think cobalt KNOWS any of them?????

15 posted on 02/08/2003 11:54:03 AM PST by crazykatz
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To: CobaltBlue
READ IT AND TURN A DEEPER SHADE OF PUTRID GREEN!!

"General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslav Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944.

Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory."

President Harry S. Truman, March 29, 1948

16 posted on 02/08/2003 11:57:47 AM PST by crazykatz
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To: CobaltBlue
READ IT AND TURN A DEEPER, DEEPER, SHADE OF PUTRID GREEN!!

"General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslav Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944.

Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory."

President Harry S. Truman, March 29, 1948

17 posted on 02/08/2003 11:59:08 AM PST by crazykatz
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote:
"Worse, Serbs wanted, and many still want, to "cleanse" "Greater Serbia" of "racially inferior" Hungarians, Croats, Jews, Albanians, Catholics and Muslims."

Do you know the famous spech of Slobodan Milosevic at the Kosovo field in 1989?


No? Here you are...


"Serbia has never had only Serbs living in it. Today, more than in the past, members of other peoples and nationalities also live in it. This is not a disadvantage for Serbia. I am truly convinced that it is its advantage. National composition of almost all countries in the world today, particularly developed ones, has also been changing in this direction. Citizens of different nationalities, religions, and races have been living together more and more frequently and more and more successfully."

Slobodan Milosevic, 28 June, 1989

read complete speech of Slobodan Milosevic (<- Click)

Surprised?

Karadjordje

18 posted on 02/08/2003 12:16:01 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
What a pointless argument you're making. One doesn't judge people by their words, but by their deeds. Especially politicians. Talk is cheap.
19 posted on 02/08/2003 12:30:12 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: crazykatz
Good for General Mihailovich, but that doesn't refute the fact that many Serbs were fascists and Nazi sympathizers. Not all, of course.


In America, we don't judge people by their religion. We judge them by their actions.

Nor do people get a "pass" on all future wrong-doing because they had an ancestor who did the right thing in the past.

20 posted on 02/08/2003 12:32:52 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote:

Crazy, indeed, and crude revisionism. Some Serbs collaborated with the Nazis, some Croats and Bosnians fought the Nazis. Do you remeber Franjo Tudjman's statemant in 1991?

Read it carefully and compare it with Milosevic's statements!


Franjo Tudjman

"I [F. Tudjman] am glad to say that my wife is neither a Jew nor a Serb"


The Jerusalem Post, "Goebbels lives in Zagreb", December 21, 1991

Do you know Mr. Tudjman "Mein Kampf"? Here you are again:

THE MASTER MIND OF TODAY'S CROATIA'S "DEMOCRACY"

Mr. Tudjman's Main Kampf

    The current president of Croatia claims in his book 'Wastelands - The
Historical Truth' that - JEWS ARE GUILTY FOR THE HOLOCAUST. This he
wrote in 1989 before he became 'freely elected President of Democratic
Croatia', the term that Western media likes to repeat.

                   FRANJO TUDJMAN ON THE JEWS



    (excerpts from the book: ``Wastelands -- Historical Truth'',

    F.Tudjman: Bespu'ca -- povjesne zbiljnosti, second edition,

    Nakladni zavod Matice Hrvatske, Zagreb, 1989




1. The term holocaust has been used for the terrible hardships and
extermination of Jews in Nazi Europe. The Jewish writer and Nobel
Prize winner Elie Wiesel introduced this term from the Greek
translation of the Hebrew Biblical word 'shoah' which means a burnt
offering$^{(1)}$. This very term reminds us that it is a question of
victims similar to those in Biblical times as well as to the
burning and to the self-immolation of Jews in medieval and  more
recent  history.  How present  this  ancient  tradition was  with
reference to survival is also indicated by the example of the Jews
in the Netherlands where on the day the Hitlerites arrived (May 15,
1940) they rather committed suicide than to be latter on killed by
the Nazis$^{(2)}$. An explanation for such, especially group cases of
suicide, can of course be explained more by the cult of the victim
rather than by cowardice or desperation. (p. 148)



(1) In the Bible we find the motif of burnt offering among pagan
peoples and the chosen Jewish people. The victims offered to God
were both living beings and plants: food, animals and human beings.
Gradually  in Temple  offerings  to  God,  human  sacrifices were
rejected while the animal offerings continued,  but in the New
Testament also ``The servant of God will offer his own death as a
sacrifice of  conciliation'' (53).  The highest expression of
continuity of the Old and New Testment understanding of the victim
is to be found when Jesus offers himself as a victim on the cross
which is at the same time  burnt offering, a  repentance and a
victim of whole the nation (see comp. RBT, p.1571-9). Among the
ancient Greeks holocaust (holos -- the whole + kaustos -- burnt)
burnt offering during which ceremony a whole animal was burned. (B.
Klaic, Rjecnik stranih rijeci, 1980, 551). On Wiesel's revival of
the term see GK, XXVI, 36(691). 06.09.1987,1,4.

(2) N. Levin, The Holocaust, The Destruction of European Jewry
1933--1945, 1973, text with the photography between 158-9.



2. If we disregard the medieval racial theories particularly those
from 15th century Spain, then the subsequent ones originated first
on the French and on the English soil (J.A. Gobineau,  Lapouge,
Ammon, H.S. Chamberlain) probably as part of the need to justify
imperialist colonial conquests and domination but the fullest
development will be reached in Germany and be made finally obvious
in Rosenberg's racist doctrine and Hitler's Pan-Germanic program.
The idea of the world mission of the German Herrenvolk, as the
highest  race,  was based also on the assumption for a ``Final
solution'' of the Jewish issue, in the sense that they would be
definitely  excluded  from  German  and  European  history.  An
explanation for this should probably be sought,  in addition to
historical layers, in the fact that German imperialism for
geo-political reasons was oriented primarily to the attainment of
domination over Europe.  For this reason the establishment of
Hitler's new European order could be justified by the need both to
remove  the  Jews  (undesirable  more  or  less  in  all  European
countries)  and  to  correct  the  French-British sin  of  the
Versailles order. (p. 149)


3. As the idea to settle the Jews ln Madagascar could not be
realized  because of opposition to this by other powers,  the
Hitlerite leadership after dividing Poland end seizing the bulk of
European Jews, adopted a basis for territorial solutions by setting
up the Lublin Jewish Autonomous Region. It was here that bout
1,400,000 Polish Jews and about 600,000 from Germany and elsewhere
were to be collected. However, already in May 1940 this plan was
abandoned. The reason was the unsurpassable difficulties in piling
up such a huge population in an inappropriate area  without
sufficient settlements although melioration works and labor camps
were envisaged. Later on this territorial solution was abandoned in
this area that was to become a part of the German ethnic corridor
from the Baltic to the Carpathians. However, the very idea of a
Jewish autonomous area (``reservation'') in this region continued to
exist during wartime. The German Government would use it to justify
its demands for Jews from other countries to be sent to the East.
Among the Jews of Poland and others, the idea was fairly widespread
that the Germans wanted to establish a Jewish area in eastern
Poland. An echo of this can be found also in the draft that Zygmunt
Kaczynski presented on behalf of the Polish emigre government in
1942 in the USA, referring to the post-war solution of the Jewish
question by settling them in eastern Poland or in Bessarabia.
Judging by this, this proposal was also supported by the Polish
resistance movement in Warsaw.

The sensational victory over France opened up visions of  final
victory and also the possibility for a ``final'',  ``territorial''
solution of the Jews in one of the African or American colonies,
most likely in Madagascar. It is interesting to note that this
solution was favored also by all of Hitler's associates including
Goering,  Ribbertrop,  Goebbels,  Himmler,  Rosenberg,  Frank  and
Heydrich. In  speaking about the division of the French colonies
(June l8, 1940), Hitler told Mussolini that ``in Madagascar a Jewish
state could be formed'' and this was also heard by Ciano from
Ribbertrop. Dr. F. Rademacher was given the task to elaborate this
plan from the view point of international law. According to his
memorandum  approved  by  Ribbertrop,  Petain's  France was  to
relinquish Madagascar to Germany and resettle 25,00 Frenchmen from
the island in order to create conditions for the solution of the
Jewish question. All the Jews would be settled in Madagascar and
would enjoy full autonomy which would ensure ``a good attitude'' of
the American Jews towards Germany. All preparations for this were
made in Germany under the supervision of Eichmann and Rademacher
for the transport by sea of 4 million Jews to Madagascar as well as
for settlement conditions on the island itself in cooperation with
the French ministry for Colonies. Of course, the transport could
not begin until the end of the war.

After Hitler's armies became stuck in the USSR vastness, and the
failure of the German myth of invincibility in the Blitzkrieg, the
German possibility for the territorial solution of the Jewish
question outside Europe also fell through. (p. 152--153)


4. Thus in the War's third year (1942) the leadership of the Third
Reich adopted the plan to exclude the Jews from the life of German
and other European peoples by exterminating them gradually. But as
such a goal could not be announced publicly, but was secretly told
only to a narrow circle of Nazi intimates, it remained concealed
also  for  the  majority  of  the  Germans  who  understood  the
deportations of Jews to the East as being their re-settlement to
Polish and Russian areas and therefore accepted the concentration
camps as a labor camps and not death camps. (p. 153)


5. That the estimated loss of up to 6 million dead is founded too
much on both emotional biased testimonies and on exaggerated data
in the post-war reckonings of ar crimes and squaring of accounts
with the defeated perpetrators of war crimes, can be concluded
among other things by the fact that even in serious books (such as
N. Levin's unquestionably is) is evidenced, for example, a highly
Multiplied data on Jasenovac with the assertion that of the
allegedly 770,000 killed there, 20,000 Jews were killed even though
it is stated that the Jews from Croatia under German orders were
deported to the East and partly that they found salvation in the
Italian zone. And when the Jasenovac mythic figure seemed to be
realistic, than it is no surprise that even Malaparte's invented
basket of eyes becomes duplicated probably for the sake of greater
authenticity of such data and testimonies. (p. 156)


6. In the mid-Eighties, world Jewry still has the need to recall
its ``holocaust'' even by trying to prevent the election of the
former UN Secretary General Kurt Waldheim as President of Austria!
And for this there was certainly no reasonable excuse because he in
the Second World War (in a minor officer's rank of the German Army)
was neither a war criminal nor could he make any decisions on the
execution of such orders. And as at the same time one can be deaf
and blind to every thing that is happening in front of ones face on
orders of the Israeli generals and Government, demonstrates the
inviolable domination of historical unreasonableness and narrowness
in which Jewry certainly is no exception.

And precisely for this reason the example of the Jewish people has
remained historically instructive in many ways. After everything
they suffered in history, particularly the hardships in World War
Two,  the  Jewish people soon afterwards became so brutal and
conducted a genocidal policy towards the Palestinians that they can
rightly be defined as Judeo-Nazis. And this was stated not by a
hardcore anti-Semite but by Israeli professor J. Leibowitz, one of
the rare Jews who advocates the recognition of the rights of
Palestinians. The general  revolt of  the Palestinians  on the
occupied Western Bank and in Gaza,  areas which the Jews call
according to the Old Testament Judea and Samaria, revealed at the
end of 1987 to the world and to Israel itself that the problem does
not lie only in the expulsion of the Palestinians or in Arafat's
PLO, but in the Palestinian people under Israeli occupation. The
fact that 20-year olds, that is, men born after the ``Six Day War''
occupation in which Israel seized a three times bigger territory
than  its  own,  that these young people have  appeared  on  the
historical scene indicates how intolerable is the ``Judeo-Nazi''
policy and the irreconcilability of the subjected people to be
deprived of their homeland. The essential policy of the erection of
the new Jewish settlements in the place of destroyed Palestinian
homes is not only a political, economic and cultural discrimination
but also the harsh persecution of the Palestinians that has brought
about an even bigger rift between the two peoples. During the past
20 years 350,000 Palestinians from the Occupied Territories have
passed through Israeli prisons which means more than 50 per cent of
the adult population. And in Israeli universities the Arabs are not
allowed to study aeronautics and electrical engineering nor geography
and archaeology because these sciences are connected to frontiers
and to history. And this,  of course,  is not the only form of
spiritual genocide alongside what has already been done through the
mass expulsion and brutal wartime reprisals.

What does this small historical step from Nazi-Fascism to
Judeo-Nazism indicate?

When a movement or a people, a state or an alliance, a religion or
ideology is confronted with an enemy it considers fatal to its
survival or  barrier to its domination, it will do everything
possible and use all available means to conquer and even destroy it
if it has no other way to subject it to his will. This intention
will be abandoned only by the possible danger of being itself
destroyed in such a plan. (p. 160--161)


7.  Of  all  original  mythological  concepts,  up  to  all latter
religious  end  ideological  essences or else philosophical  and
scientific outlooks on the world, the human brain has moved in an
equally accursed labyrinth of contradictions on the sense and
nonsense of violence in historical existence. Because in man's and
people's historical march violence has been a constant accompanying
phenomenon, cause and supposition of its survival or disappearance.
We  are  confronted  with  its inevitable presence  and  eternal
wrestling and changes of all those phenomena of destiny that make
for a historical fate, both human and national. Which means: life
and death, good and evil, love and hate, harmony and conflict,
peace and war, or the beatitude of all beauties and a horror of all
horrors...


As we have already been able to conclude from the aforegoing, it is
in all the Judean origins that all our latter western civilizations
in ancient times at the peak of the philosophical thought as
expressed by the Biblical God Jehovah -- genocidal violence is a
natural  phenomenon,  in  keeping  with  the  human-social  and
mythological-divine nature.  It is not only allowed,  but even
recommended. Moreover, it is advised in the words of the Almighty
Jehovah  whenever  it is  useful  for  survival  or  the  renewed
establishment of the kingdom of the chosen people, or for the
maintenance and spread of His only genuine faith.

Understandably with such thinking human historical thought from the
very outset found itself in contradiction to itself. Aware of the
depth of the gap and the inter-conditionality of life's efforts and
destructive impulses and being impotent to remove them in the
historical reality, it certainly will not be able to overcome even
its own cowardly desperation and whenever it tried to rise above
good and evil, historical movements and durations, it lost the
ground under its feet, escaping from earthly historical reality
into heavenly bliss or into other worlds, or into  peaceable
shining future which constantly remains on an unreachable horizon.

Every violence is the fruit of hatred which is  barrier to love
but so close to it that it can be called its inseparable side.
Although according to Biblical teaching God created the brotherhood
of men to live  in love,  hatred is born out of jealousy by
destroying ones rival and murder ensues in already the first
generation. Since then the world has remained  victim of hatred
and violence. And just as Cain raises against Abel, Esau against
Jacob and Jacob's sons against Joseph, so also will the Egyptians
rise against Israel, the aliens against Jerusalem. The enemies of
the chosen people are also God's enemies, they are identified with
criminals,  which justifies hatred and the holy war of Israel
against its hateful enemies. The commandment: ``Thou shalt love thy
neighbor, and hate thine enemy'' confirmed in the lesson that in
every  national  enemy  (Israel's)  one  also  sees  God's  enemy,
necessarily led to the justification of even the most outrageous
violence. In this way the God of love is described ambiguously as
a God of hatred who hates his enemies, aggressors and all sinners,
either as individuals (who often signifies a whole community, as
for example Jacob means Israel and Essu mean Edom), or else whole
nations.  In  order  to  preserve  its  identity  and  attain  an
independent state the Jewish Biblical idea made Israel into a
chosen tribe and even a holy nation which in the name of Jehovah
assumes special rights in relation to all other peoples, with the
tendency through religion to include them organically into its own,
God' people, so that David's son is king over all other peoples
and Jerusalem becomes the hub of the whole world. And, of course,
in order to achieve this consecrated goal, all means are allowed.
And why should they not be when even the Almighty Jehovah is not
only identified with the Jewish people but even placed in its
service: ``I shall be the enemy of your enemies''. For this reason
Israel's national wars will be ``Jehovah's wars'' with the purpose of
exterminating the enemy. Conditioned by the status of its people,
the Biblical Jewish thought made God into an awesome warrior who
for the sake of Israel kills the first born Egyptians, demands
anathema, that is, the total destruction of the enemy -- of living
beings and the acquisition of material booty. The massacre of the
enemy becomes one of the religious principles of the holy war,
which must not be infringed upon because if the enemy is not
destroyed there will follow defeat as a punishment. For the sake of
total hatred the enemy is identified with the devil  and the
dangerous beasts. God himself will make use of the threat of the
wild beasts in cursing Egypt and every infidel nation. And the
frightening picture of devastated towns and settlements abandoned
to the wild beasts intimates pogrom over the whole human community
and whole nations.

Born out of the lunacy of oppression, extermination, persecution,
devastation and destruction, Biblical thought does not recognize
any other way of salvation for the oppressed and the threatened
except in a powerful counter-attack: ``May evil strike the tyrant,
may every blow be answered by a blow''. And of course all such
actions and all forms of the holy war are not considered aggressive
but only  means of extirpating evil from the world. Of course, it
is easy to overstep the boundary line between just and unjust
violence. By branding on the one hand all crimes in the name of
justice and allowing, on the other hand, all violence in order to
curb them, Biblical thought realizes that it is involved in the
trap of contradictions and double meanings. That is why instead of
approving the devastating power of revenge it speaks against crimes
that signify unjustified violence and specifically states : the
resettlement  of  the population,  ripping open pregnant women,
burnings, crushing infants against rocks, oppressing strangers.

Biblical reflections arrive at the knowledge that every aggressive
war and even the holy Israeli war, leads to new conflicts. And also
to the fact that the enemy whom the oppressed just nation was not
able to defeat, finally perishes as a victim of his own doing, that
is because of his own madness. War and violence provoke moral
discomfort and spiritual hesitation from which, however, there is
no way out. Because although peace is the purpose of God's idea,
experience tells us that every people can attain it only on the
assumption that victory is won through conflict and violence.
(p. 172--173)



8. All this indicates the need to investigate in an objective way
all the ``collection'' and ``labor camps'' and Jasenovac above all. The
crimes of the Ustashi as well as those of the Chetniks or any other
actors in other places and at other times,  will not lose the
``enormity'' of the brutalities if they are depicted exactly as they
were.  It is precisely by monstrously multiplying them that an
opposite effect is obtained: on the one hand due to the fact that
they are unconvincing and on the other hand because they foment
even more irrational hatred. The promoters of the Jasenovac myth
have since the very outset to the present day been insisting on the
fact that the Jasenovac camp was organized with the express purpose
of liquidating all the inmates so that there were daily massacres
of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Communists.
The truth is that the camp was organized as a ``labor camp'' with
many field and factory units. To the camp individually and mostly
in small groups of tens or one hundred persons, tens of thousands
of unfortunate persons were brought but also released and shipped
to labor camps in Germany. The inmates during their stay in the
camp were worked hard end maltreated under exceptionally difficult
and unhygienic conditions at work and they were also tortured and
killed for the least disobedience especially the aged and the
feeble,  and from time to time on the pretext of reprisals for
killed Ustashi or attempted escape they were brutally killed in
smaller or bigger groups (in tens end even hundreds). In this way
in the Jasenovac camp probably 3--4 tens of thousands of inmates
were killed in this way. Most of these were Gypsies, Jews and Serbs
and even Croats.  I am convinced that this figure can also be
exactly established -- except perhaps for the Gypsies -- through
further detailed investigation.

In estimating the situation in the camp in view of its purpose and
the  crimes  committed,  we  should  bear  in  mind  its  internal
management which was based on the inmates themselves running the
camp. In this connection I have long ago arrived at a conclusion
that in exaggerating Ustashi crimes some individuals who had some
special,  hidden reasons,  became particularly prominent in this
effort. In this context the report made by Vojislav Prnjatovic, an
inmate from Sarajevo, on March 11, 1942, after being released from
Jasenovac, to the Commissariat for Refugees of Nedic's Government
in Belgrade, contained  fairly true picture of Jasenovac. The
inmates were used for work on several large farming estates between
Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska whose owners were Serbs and who were
``partly voluntarily and partly forcibly deported''. And as in this
area there was a ``factory owned by the firm of Bacic and Co., which
was confiscated by the Croat state, because Bacic emigrated to
Serbia'', it was the intention of the Ustashi ``to make of Jasenovac
not only a collection camp but also an industrial camp seeing that
on that land good factory workshops had already been built for the
production  of  iron  mongery,  tin-plates,  upholstery,  riffles,
automobile parts, carpentry, electrical appliances, bricks, a steam
saw-mill, an electric power house, which supplied electricity for
the town of Jasenovac itself''. The inmates were placed into three
groups: the free men, the partially free and the simple inmates.
And  next  to  the  camp  command  there  was  also an  inmates
management. The Ustashi management consists of a supervisory body
while the ``self-management of the inmates meant that the inmates
themselves ran their lives and work in the camp according to the
orders and intentions of the Ustashi. In this way the inmates ran
their own food supplies, accommodation, order and cleanliness in
the camp''. The inmates who were free could not only move freely
about the camp and in the town of Jasenovac, but they could also go
without  guards on official  trips to procure goods  throughout
Croatia. The partially free inmates could move about in the camp and
the town of Jasenovac ``where they usually went in order to procure
goods or take over merchandize''. ``The ordinary inmates could move
about in the camp in daytime on condition that they did not
approach the wired fence from nearer than 5 meters''. Heading this
hierarchy of inmates was the camp foreman who had a deputy, head of
the food department and  clerk's office. He was followed by the
barracks commanders and heads of the working groups. All these
people in the inmates management were free  and all these posts were
held by Jews and only three out of twenty five barracks commanders
and working groups were Serbs. Every individual barrack had its
superintendent  and  four  orderlies. ``All  the  inmates  ...were
employed mainly according to their profession in civilian life and
it was easiest for tradesmen end skilled worker because they were
sent to work in the workshops'', and for field work only if the
professional jobs were filled.

``The free inmates do not live inside the camp but in the village of
Jasenovac in private homes and they could also bring their families
with them. Therefore, they could live freely with their families in
Jasenovac. Unfortunately this refers only  to Jew''.

``Inmates in groups have special group food which is good and tasty
and they receive one whole loaf of bread of 900 grams per day''.
This refers to those in the work groups. While ``ordinary inmates
receive simple food'' which is just as the food for the sick ``below
all standards''. Poor food, heavy work and unsanitary conditions
were the reasons why the inmates lost weight and fell ill, ``which
led them directly into death because once ill and exhausted they
are usually liquidated''. It was only in January 1942 before the
arrival of the International Commission that a hospital was put up.
But the inmates went there only in dire need because the Ustashi
would break into the hospital every two to three weeks and drag
the sick out and liquidate them in front of the hospital building
or at a cemetery. All the inmates except the sick in the hospital
had to work and if they violated the discipline the Ustashi were
``entitled without any responsibility to kill the inmate'' and ``not
a day went by without the Ustashi making use of this right''. In
addition to individual killings, there were also ``mass killing''s
when new transports arrived or when the numerical status in the
camp ``exceeded one thousand'' and then the Ustashi would order ``a
selection to be made among the inmates for liquidation''. As to the
figures, Prnjatovic states that from December 1941 to January 1942
about ``3--4 thousand newly arrived inmates were killed''. In the camp
there were 5--8 times more Jews than Serbs. As they arrived earlier
and ``succeeded  in the  inmates  hierarchy  to grab  the  better
positions'' in order to retain their privileges ``they constantly
intrigued  against  the  Serbs''  and ``as  the  Ustashi  had  more
confidence in the Jews'', the Serbs ``in addition to suffering from
the Ustashi, suffered also from the Jews'': ``a Jew remains a Jew in
the Jasenovac camp as well. In the camp they retained their defects
which  became  more  visible  now.   Selfishness,   craftiness,
unreliability, miserliness, underhandedness and secrecy are their
main characteristics''. Prnjatovic's Judgment is exaggerated and we
might say even anti-Semitic. But similar statements were made by
other witnesses. Some of the Jewish camp officials were armed and
even took part in the killings. Moreover, they held in their hands
a good many of the ``selection jobs'' that is the selection of
inmates for liquidation and partly also for their execution.

Ante  Ciliga,  onetime member of the Politburo of  the  Central
Committee of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, on the basis of his
personal experience in an Ustashi camp and latter on in the
Jasenovac camp for more than one year, from December 14, 1941 to
December 31, 1942, fills in the above account and other similar
testimonies. He could also follow what was happening during his
soldiering in Zagreb up to the summer of 1944. In his recollections
he compared this most notorious Pavelic camp and the Stalin camps
in Siberia through which he also passed. But from his Marxist
standpoint he was particularly concerned with the problem of the
behavior of  Jews  in camps. Although the  Jasenovac  camp was
organized according to German models, the barracks having even been
brought from Germany, its main ``originality'' was precisely in the
position  and  role  of  the  Jews. ``In the  Jasenovac  camp  the
management was in the hands of the Jews, that is, they were the
internal camp management''. The Ustashi camp commander appointed
only the camp supervisor of the inmates and the latter chose his
own associates and these down the line their ``group chiefs for
other groups of tens or hundreds of inmates''. All of them from the
highest to the lowest  were Jews, ``except in rare instances''. This
system was against the official anti-Semitism of the Pavelic regime
as required by Hitler. And this happened because ``in its origins
Pavelic's party was philo-Semitic, precisely the Jewish Party among
the Croats'', because the Jews were ``in Croatia the least important
or dangerous enemy''. Because ``the enemy number one were the Serbs
and the enemy number two were the Communists''. This conclusion was
arrived at by the Germans themselves as is seen in the above
mentioned report to the effect that the Jewish question had finally
been solved according to the German guidelines only in Serbia but
not also in the NDH because there they had the protection of the
Catholic church and the Government.

The participation of Jews in the Jasenovac liquidation of Gypsies
became apparent particularly in the so-called affair of the Gypsy
gold (1942). ``The liquidation command in Gradina -- writes Ciliga --
was also entrusted to a Jewish group'' and as the Jews were in
charge of the storehouses where the goods of those liquidated were
placed they obtained  large quantity of gold coins that had been
sown into the cloths of those killed. In order to conceal the coins
outside the camp (``for better times''), the Jews ``interested'' a
lieutenant among  the Ustashi who was  a brother of  the camp
commander. As one of the members involved  in the management
informed Luburic about this undertaking, the Ustashi lieutenant and
5 Jews were executed in front of all the inmate and the new
internal camp official who had revealed this theft was appointed to
that post. On another occasion four men were killed for selling
camp merchandize including two Ustashi guards who helped the Jewish
warehouse attendant to send the stolen goods outside the camp.
These cases point to the links between the camp and the Ustashi
management which had to undertake drastic measures in order to
preserve the ``purity'' of its ranks. But in the camp and especially
among the Jews the ``general norm was to report such activities to
the Ustashi if this could be useful''. After the liquidation of the
Jewish group (D) because of the gold, ``the Gypsies were then formed
into groups of killers in Gradina''. ``They were given special food
with wine'', until their turn came. (p. 316--319)



9. The explanation for the Jewish behavior who ``jealously kept the
monopoly of the management inside the camp and took the initiative
in provoking not only individual but also mass slaughters of the
non-Jews, Communists, partisans and Serbs'', was made by Ciliga in
view of the specific features of the Jewish religion and mentality.
``The Old Testament hardness and unreasonableness, Moses' double
yardstick, two kinds of regulations on the same matter and act,
according to whether it referred to Jews or non-Jews and finally
Moses' Commandments...: God orders you to exterminate others and take
their  place  because  you  are  the  chosen  people'', all  these
principles in one way or another ``govern the whole group'' and lead to
their ruthless dominant self-confidence and relentlessness: ``You
kill others... to save yourself and your group''. More intelligent
and educated on the average than the others ``the Jews carried out
this mutual extermination more intelligently and farsightedly to
their own benefit''. From their point of view this was ``justified
and moral''. Moses'  monotheism and the principle of the chosen
people led to the Jews being at the same time the most ``closed'' and
``most  universal''  nation among  mankind.   Universalism and
internationalism  is only  one  of  Moses' aspects  of  Jewish
nationalism.  In Jasenovac also ``it was not  the non-Jews who
separated themselves from the Jews but exactly the opposite, the
Jews proclaimed themselves to be a chosen people''. They think that
``as  a chosen  people  they  could  do  what  others  could  not
do...imagining that in this way they were more intelligent than all
the others and that they would be able to outwit all the other
peoples in the world''. And due to this the ``Jasenovac -- mutatis
mutandis is the world history of Jewry for over two thousand
years''. The Jews provoke envy and hatred but actually they are ``the
unhappiest nation in the world'', always victims of ``their own and
others'  ambitions'',  and whoever tries  to  show that  they are
themselves their own source of tragedy is ranked among the
anti-Semites and the object of hatred of the Jews.

It transpires from Ciliga's account that the Jews held in their
hands the inmates management of the camp up to 1944  by which time
there were three Jewish camp officials (Diamantstein, Spiller and
Wiener), and they were followed by two Croat Communists (R. Vlah
and V. Bornemisa). These changes allegedly came about because of
changes in the Ustashi policy under new conditions of way. (p. 320)



   translated by: Vida Jankovi'c

                  Svetlana Raivcevi'c

Source:http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Tudjman.html (<- Click)

You blethered on "crude revisionism", didn't you?

Karadjordje

21 posted on 02/08/2003 12:57:22 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
We as Americans owe Slobodan Milosovic an appology. He was fighting against Moslem terrorists as we are doing now. Clinton made him out to be the next Adolph Hitler...How many times have we heard that before?

Mr. Milosovic was said to have killed tens of thousands and put them in mass graves. We never did find those mass graves.

Shame on Clinton and shame on the media for passing on those lies.

22 posted on 02/08/2003 1:05:35 PM PST by Radioactive
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To: Karadjordje; CobaltBlue
I am not very knowledgeable in the history of this multi-ethnic conflict, but blanket statements about ethnic groups (Croats were Nazi collaborators, Serbs are innocent) are not helpful in such a discussion. We only repeat the mistakes of the actual groups over there, which lead to the conflicts themselves.

I am sure of one thing however in the history of this region (it isn't entirely related, but it is relevant). I read parts of the book "The Black Book of Communism," and the Communists' atrocities against Christian people of all backgrounds, particularly Latin and Eastern Rite Catholics, in Central and Eastern Europe are a DOCUMENTED FACT. Since the Catholics' hierarchy was based out of the Vatican, and it took an active anti-communist stance, the Catholics were particularly targeted for torture and execution. Demonic ceremonies that mocked the Mass and the Catholic faith were held in prison camps in attempt to get seminarians to renounce their faith. Many of the Orthodox Churches, which were divided by country, collaborated with the Communists, and some Catholic priests also colloborated with the Commies. But most devout Christians, whether Catholic or Orthodox, were persecuted by the Communists, and had to flee, many to the U.S.

I think we should remember this instead of bickering of who colloborated with whom, and who killed what group. As long as Christians are at other Christians' throats, the forces of evil will use that to their advantage.

23 posted on 02/08/2003 1:12:14 PM PST by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Radioactive
The thing which was on all the front pages of American newspapers the day before Kosovo started was the Juanita Broaddrick story. A week after Kosovo started, there were pictures in the papers of Slick and his toadies doing high fives and talking about hitting a "home run".

That's not one of your more difficult deals to figure out...

24 posted on 02/08/2003 1:12:16 PM PST by merak
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To: merak
BTTT
25 posted on 02/08/2003 1:17:22 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaldBlue wrote:

What a pointless argument you're making. One doesn't judge people by their words, but by their deeds. Especially politicians. Talk is cheap.

You want deeds?

Here are your deeds!

Ustasha fascist Terrorists murderer unstoppable:

Books


Ustasja

Jahn Otto Johansen

J.W. Cappelens Forlag A.S. 1984




26 posted on 02/08/2003 1:23:54 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Pyro7480; MarMema
You are so right.. YOU ARE NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THIS CONFLICT.

Instead of posting...just drivel about Eastern Orthodox Christians collaborating " with commies... why don't you do some research on just HOW SO MANY R.C. CROATIAN nazis WERE ABLE TO GET TO THE WEST with the help from certain R.C. leaders??? Amazing and TRUE!!

And, just so you know this...the commies on Russia....murdered over 60 million Orthodox Christians for their Faith...about 1 million Church clergy and Church lay people as well.

I suppose NO Polish R.C. ever collaborated with commies. HA! That would be IMPOSSIBLE, right?? NOT!!

27 posted on 02/08/2003 1:27:02 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: crazykatz
Umm... did you see this sentence in my post? "But most devout Christians, whether Catholic or Orthodox, were persecuted by the Communists, and had to flee, many to the U.S.

Read a little more carefully. I never DENIED anything that you pointed out. In fact, in this sentence from my post, "Many of the Orthodox Churches, which were divided by country, collaborated with the Communists, and some Catholic priests also colloborated with the Commies," POINTED OUT the very thing you just said. In fact, in another part of "The Black Book of Communism," the authors DOCUMENTED the slaughter of Orthodox Christians in Russia and other countries. I wasn't making a blanket statement, like many do. Again I say that I never DENIED this.

Could the real issue you have be the statement I closed my post with? Please clarify, and also reread my post.

28 posted on 02/08/2003 1:36:49 PM PST by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Pyro7480; crystalk; MarMema
I am very tired of hearing that Orthodox Christians collaborated with anybody....That Church has survived the muslims, the tatars, the Croatian nazis, the muslim turks, the KLA, the Germans, the nasty commmies.

And, they sit right now in the hot seats surrounded by extremist muslim hords...in places like Chetyna, KosovO, Mcedonia, Bulgaria, Egypt, Uganda and Ethiopia .

They are always in danger...if ever there were a Church which has suffered EXTREME persecutions from satan...it is the Eastern Orthodox.

If ever they falter, even slightly...there are always those safe-little Christians in foreign lands who say...."BOO HISS-naaaaananana"... to the Orthodox Christians.

Instead of saying, "There but by the GRACE OF GOD, go I", these little safe Christians... look for what they perceive as Orthodox "flaws".

I heard pat robinson say one time on his TV show...that the Orthodox worship "idols"

Of course they don't worship idols.... and they also don't go on TV and cast aspersions on other Christians, who have suffered for their FAITH, either.

29 posted on 02/08/2003 1:58:32 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Karadjordje
Right after 9/11, someone wrote something about when history begins, that to some Americans, history will begin on that date, while to the Muslims, they might think history begins in 1948, with the establishment of Israel. The fact is that the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians and the Albanians have been at each other's throats since time immemorial. When the country is occupied (as it usually is by some power or other--Turks, Austro-Hungarians, Nazis, Communists), one group aligns themselves with the power and avenges old grudges. Then the wheel turns and it's the other group's turn, avenging the wrongs of the last cycle. The whole idea of a single Yugoslavia uniting all those nationalities was a stupid one that was bound to end badly. And it's not until old grudges are forgotten that it's going to end. Don't hold your breath.
30 posted on 02/08/2003 2:06:15 PM PST by Heyworth
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote:
Why did we stop the nice Orthodox Serbs from butchering Muslims? Maybe if you think about it for a while, you'll figure it out.

Ah, you are aiming at the happenings in Srebrenica in 1995?

Let me show you how the Canadian Paper The Ottawa Citizen describes the Situation of Serbs in and around Srebrenica,

before

a single Serbian soldier arrived there my friend:


The Ottawa Citizen , December 16, 2001

Bin Laden´s Balkan Connections

Dateline: Skopje, Macedonia

By Scott Taylor

With the swift collapse of the Taliban regime, the U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan has been reduced to an Osama bin Laden manhunt cum mop-up of the Al-Qaeda network. As U.S. jets pound the cave entrances around Tora Bora, Special Forces teams are closing in on the last redoubts of Taliban fanatics. Following the quick success in Afghanistan, President George Bush has already warned Americans to prepare for a "wider war" aimed at punishing those nations which "harbour terrorism." Although there was no proven link between Iraq and the anthrax scare, in recent speeches Bush has repeatedly singled out Saddam Hussein as "an enemy of the U.S." Similar ominous threats have been levelled at the governments of Sudan, Libya, Syria and the leaders of Palestinian extremist groups.

While it is believed that Saudi-born Osama bin Laden remains surrounded in Afghanistan, U.S. Intelligence agencies cannot be sure of his exact whereabouts. What is known is that his extensive Al-Qaeda terrorist organisation still has operating cells around the world.

As the U.S. dragnet is cast ever wider, it can only be a matter of time before the counter-terrorist effort revisits the Balkans. Over the past decade, Mujahadeen fighters - and in particular, bin Laden´s followers - have practised their brutal brand of terror in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and are currently believed to be participating in Macedonia´s civil unrest.

On 20 November, while the Taliban was still offering organised resistance and extremists from around the world were volunteering to join their ranks, Pakistani police apprehended five of these Muslim "fighters" carrying Macedonian passports at the Afghan border.

For Macedonian Intelligence officials, these arrests were only further proof that Mujahadeen formed the veteran core of the ethnic Albanian guerrilla army known as the UCK. Since March of this year, the UCK have mounted a very successful military offensive against Macedonian security forces. By the time that a shaky peace plan was brokered in September, the UCK controlled nearly 30 per cent of Macedonian territory. Originally inexperienced and ill-equipped to fight a guerrilla war, the Macedonian security forces have maintained since the outbreak of hostilities that up to 120 Mujahadeen were active in the UCK ranks.

Nikola, a senior director with Macedonian Intelligence, confirmed that following the 11 September terrorist attacks, his agency has "supplied a substantive dossier to the CIA," outlining bin Laden´s Balkan activities. The information forwarded to the CIA included eyewitness accounts offered by Macedonian civilians who had been held hostage by Mujahadeen, along with incriminating photographs and videos, which security forces captured from the UCK-Albanian guerrillas.

Macedonian Minister of Interior Ljubo Boskovski is anxious for his police forces to return into the areas presently controlled by the Albanian guerrillas in order to uncover additional evidence. Since 13 November, Macedonian security forces have been conducting an exhumation at a mass grave outside the ethnic Albanian village of Trebos. To date, the police have unearthed the bodies of six Macedonians, from a total of 21 civilians who have disappeared following UCK attacks. Intelligence officer Nikola believes it was Mujahadeen fighters who perpetrated the Trebos massacre "because of the manner in which the bodies were cut up and scattered."

Nikola also suspects that Mujahadeen fanatics perpetrated a brutal ambush against security forces last April. In this incident, eight policemen were shot outside the village of Vejce, their bodies viciously dismembered to provide the victors with grisly trophies. The Macedonian authorities are not the only ones to affix the blame for the Vejce ambush on the Mujahadeen.

During the summer offensive around Tetovo, Albanian guerrillas eagerly admitted they had gained combat experience in previous conflicts. Twenty-three-year old Commander "Jimmy" claimed he was a veteran of Chechnya and Kosovo, while "Snake" Arifaq bragged of service in Bosnia and displayed a scar he received during the fighting in Croatia. Both of these Albanians acknowledged the involvement of Arab/Afghan "volunteers" in training members of the UCK. As for the Vejce incident, Commander Jimmy said such an atrocity could "only have been committed by the Foreigners [Mujahadeen serving in the UCK] because Albanians do not cut up bodies."

Once the UCK insurrection began in March, the Macedonian government hastily acquired a fleet of six Ukrainian helicopter gunships to provide their troops with tactical air support. "Shortly after that, our pilots reported being tracked by sophisticated [U.S.-made] Stinger [anti-aircraft] missiles," said Nikola. "It is the information [of Macedonian Intelligence] that the UCK received these Stingers from their Mujahadeen connections in Afghanistan."

American advisors and covert military aid have also contributed to the UCK´s combat effectiveness, but since 11 September the Macedonians have noted a shift in U.S. foreign policy. "The CIA have been much more receptive to our reports about the Al-Qaeda," said Nikola. "Particularly after they discovered that one of the suicide hijackers had been active in both Kosovo and Macedonia."

Given their common goal of neutralising Albanian terrorists, Macedonian police have been working closely with their Yugoslavian counterparts. More importantly, as part of the U.S.-led global initiative to combat terror, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has been reinstated to the ranks of Interpol - after a ten-year banishment. As a result, Intelligence Officers from the Yugoslavian Army have been able to supply their international colleagues with a wealth of information outlining Mujahadeen activity in Bosnia and Kosovo. Yugoslav Intelligence believes that at least 50 of the 150 Mujahadeen that fought in Kosovo are still active members of the UCK.

Even without this Yugoslav co-operation, Interpol was already tracking the Al-Qaeda´s Balkan activities. On 23 October this year, Interpol released a preliminary report outlining bin Laden´s personal links to the Albanian Mafia. In this report, Interpol alleges that a senior Al-Qaeda lieutenant had been the commander of an elite UCK unit in Kosovo during the fighting in 1999.

While U.S. President Bill Clinton´s regime was the driving force to garner NATO support for the UCK, numerous media reports clearly show that the CIA were well aware of bin Laden´s Albanian links prior to NATO´s commitment in Kosovo.

On 17 January 1999 the international press was filled with news of an alleged massacre of 45 Albanian Kosovars in the village of Racak. Clinton seized upon this particular incident (later disproved, by UN pathologists, to have been an Albanian hoax) to proclaim that the West could no longer overlook "Serbian atrocities." With Clinton´s statement, NATO was irrevocably launched on the path towards its confrontation with Yugoslavia.

Although lost in the U.S. media hype, Greek media outlets that same day were detailing the Taliban´s widespread entry into Albania at the invitation of ex-President Sali Berisa and former head of Intelligence Bashkim Gazidede. According to The Tribune, an Athens daily newspaper, Albanian security official Fatos Klozi confirmed that "bin Laden was one of those who had organised and sent groups to fight in Kosovo. There were Egyptians, Saudis, Algerians, Tunisians, Sudanese and Kuwaitis from different organisations among the [UCK] mercenaries."

Ten days later, on 27 January 1999, the Arab-language news service Al Hayat reported that an Albanian commander in Kosovo, code-named "Monia," was directly connected to Osama bin Laden. The Al Hayat piece also proudly proclaimed that "at least 100 Muslim Mujahadeen" were serving with Monia´s force in Kosovo.

The Washington Post reported in August 1998 that the CIA were not only aware of bin Laden´s association with the Albanian regime, but that U.S. operatives had been "prominent" in the arrest of four Al-Qaeda agents in Tirana. At that time, U.S. State Department officials even speculated that the bombings of their embassies in Kenya and Tanzania might have been bin Laden´s revenge for the Tirana arrests.

The Al-Qaeda suspects detained by the CIA in Albania had been operating the Islamic Revival Foundation, "a charitable organisation that official sources say provided a useful cover for the [suspects] efforts on behalf of bin Laden," reported the Post.

In February 1998, the U.S. State Department had removed the UCK from their list of terrorist organisations. However later that same year, the CIA and their Albanian SHIK intelligence counterparts co-operated to successfully shut down a Mujahadeen Jihad cell operating in conjunction with the Albanians inside Kosovo.

Some of the most revealing links surfaced in December 1998 when Al-Qaeda agent Claude Sheik Abdel-Kader was arrested in Tirana for the murder of his Albanian translator. During his trial, Abdel-Kader confessed to being a senior commander in bin Laden´s network, and claimed he had recruited a force of some 300 Mujahadeen to fight in Kosovo. European media covering the trial reported Abdul-Kader´s revelation that Osama bin Laden - although a wanted terrorist - travelled freely to Tirana in 1994 and 1998 to meet with senior Albanian officials. Abdel-Kader also confessed that when the Albanian regime of Sali Berisa collapsed into anarchy in 1997, state armouries and government offices were looted. Many of the 10,000 heavy weapons and 100,000 passports that went missing conveniently fell into the hands of the Al-Qaeda.

Osama bin Laden - stripped of his Saudi citizenship in 1994 - is alleged to have retained the Bosnian passport he was issued in Vienna in 1993. The granting of official travel documents to bin Laden was first reported 24 September 1999 by Dani, a Bosnian Muslim weekly newspaper. The rationale behind bestowing citizenship on a wanted terrorist was that Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic had been thankful for the Mujahadeen´s contribution in his quest for a Balkan "fundamentalist Islamic Republic."

It was also reported by Dani that Al-Qaeda terrorist Mehrez Aodouni had been arrested in Istanbul while carrying a Bosnian passport. Like bin Laden, his citizenship had been granted "because he was a member of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army."

Canadian soldiers serving with the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) were among the first to report the presence of Mujahadeen in the ranks of the Bosnian Muslims as early as 1992.

The Asian Wall Street Journal reported that, in 1993, bin Laden had appointed Al Zawahiri, the Al-Qaeda´s second-in-command, to direct all his operations in the Balkans.

While no exact numbers exist, it is estimated that between 1500 and 3500 Arab volunteers participated in the Bosnian civil war. Their main area of operation was in the region of Zenica, with most Mujahadeen serving in the 7th Brigade of General Sakib Mahmuljin´s 3rd Corps, nicknamed "the Guerrillas." Identified by red and green "Rambo" bandannas emblazoned with the crest "our road is Jihad," this unit earned a reputation for criminal brutality.

On 27 June 1993, the Sunday Times reported that even Bosnian Muslim officers had reservations about the Mujahadeen volunteers. Colonel Stjepan Siber, then-Deputy Commander of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, admitted to the Times that "It was a mistake to let [the Mujahadeen] in here. They commit most of the atrocities and work against the interests of the Muslim people. They have been killing, looting and stealing."

According to reports, it was the Mujahadeen who were serving with General Nasir Oric in the Muslim enclave of Srebrenica who committed some of the most barbaric atrocities of the war. Beheadings of Serbian civilians were commonplace, and in some villages the Mujahadeen would dynamite homes with the inhabitants trapped inside.

No attempt was made to hide such atrocities. In fact, General Oric would often address media at the site of the massacres. On one such occasion, while standing in front of Mujahadeen brandishing human head trophies, Oric pointed to a flaming ruin and proudly said to reporters, "We blew those Serbs to the moon."

Alija Izetbegovic was also proud to display the fighting prowess of his Mujahadeen volunteers. Following a successful attack against Serbian positions around Vozuce on 10 September 1995, the Bosnian President held a televised medal presentation parade. The Mujahadeen had provided the vanguard of the assault force, and were awarded 11 decorations for valour, including the Golden Crescent, Bosnia´s highest honour.

Yugoslav Intelligence estimates that over 1500 Bosnian citizenships were granted to Mujahadeen/Al-Qaeda fighters following the Dayton Peace Accord in 1995. Most of those soldiers are believed to have settled in the Zenica region.

According to Miroslav Lazanski, author of the new book Osama bin Laden Against America, Al-Qaeda still maintain two operational bases in Bosnia. One of these contains only the best fighters and was commanded by an Algerian, Abu Al Mali.

Following the 11 September attacks, FBI and CIA agents uncovered evidence that two of the suicide hijackers had originated from this Bosnian camp. Abu Mali was subsequently arrested while travelling in Istanbul on a Bosnian passport.

It is evident from recent events that the U.S. military is also well aware of the continued Mujahadeen presence in the Balkans. General Myers visited NATO troops stationed in Bosnia in late November to warn them against a possible Al-Qaeda retaliation attack. In addition, on 4 December, the White House added two Albanian terrorist groups operating in Macedonia and Kosovo to their list of outlawed organisations.

President George Bush´s campaign against bin Laden´s terrorists would appear to have come full circle to confront the Clinton administration´s dubious Balkan legacy.

Source: http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/dec01/hed4473.shtml (<- Click)

Here again the interesting passage for you, CobaldBlue

According to reports, it was the Mujahadeen who were serving with General Nasir Oric in the Muslim enclave of Srebrenica who committed some of the most barbaric atrocities of the war. Beheadings of Serbian civilians were commonplace, and in some villages the Mujahadeen would dynamite homes with the inhabitants trapped inside.

Here are some nice pictures from Bosnia that show the brave deeds of the Bosnian Muslim Mudshahedin fighters in order that you can sleep better, CobaltBlue


By Muslim Bosnian Mudshahedin butchered Serb


By Muslim Bosnian Mudshahedin butchered Serb


This photograph was seized from Saudi Arabian fighters captured in Crni Vrh near Teslic, Bosnia. A Muslim solder displays the severed head of Blagoje Blagojevic, a Serb from the village of Jasenovo near Teslic.


The severed heads of three Serbs (identified as Blagoje Blagojevic, Nenad Petkovic, and Brana Djuric) beheaded by Muslim fighters. This picture was seized from Saudi Arabian solders captured near Teslic in Bosnia.


A Muslim Bosnian Mudshahedin in front of killed serb soldiers

http://www.karadzic.org/rat/svedok_mudzahedini_toholj_e.html (for more Information) (<- Click)


So tell me, when did this happen and where?

Karadjordje

31 posted on 02/08/2003 2:52:59 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: crazykatz
The real kicker is, that sooner or later the UN and the NWO crowd is going to come over here demanding that we simply hand the American southwest including Texas and California over to Mexico on the same stupid basis of ethnicity being everything and ownership and sovereignty nothing. I don't know how long we've got, but I would guess less than five years.

The precedent of Kosovo cannot be allowed to stand. We've got to give the place back to its rightful owners, i.e. to Serbia.

32 posted on 02/08/2003 2:59:43 PM PST by merak
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To: crazykatz
I am very tired of hearing that Orthodox Christians collaborated with anybody....That Church has survived the muslims, the tatars, the Croatian nazis, the muslim turks, the KLA, the Germans, the nasty commmies.

Please let me clarify. I have NO problem with Orthodox Christians. I have the utmost respect for Orthodox liturgy and mysticism. They have retained elements of Christian worship that many in Catholic circles have lost after Vatican II. In the U.S., Catholics and Orthodox Christians have worked together on a variety of issues, most promeniently in the pro-life movement. In fact, the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church in America gave an interview on the Catholic network EWTN during the March for Life which I saw, and he gave the mostly Catholic audience watching a blessing for their efforts.

The Orthodox Christians in Central and Eastern Europe are in a bad spot at the moment, between the Muslim terrorists who have plundered their churches and monasteries in the region, and the unsympathetic forces in the EU and NATO. It was a mistake for the U.S. to side with the Kosovar extremists in the late 1990s, but that was the result of the Clintons.

When I said that many of the Orthodox Churches colloborated with the Communists, I mean the Christians-In-Name-Only who only wanted to preserve their wealth and power by becoming part of the "official" state churches of the Communist realm, both Orthodox and Catholic. Many who refused to be part of these abominations started underground churches, just as there are in Communist China and Vietnam, and they were actively hunted by the secret police forces. They were tortured, forced to take part in demonic cermonies that mocked their Christian faiths, and executed. They were all martyrs.

My problem is with these very CINOs who sold their souls to the Communist devils. My problem is also with those who use ethnic conflicts, which may have started as a religious conflict, to tag a whole religion as "impure." People on all sides of this conflict are guilty of this.

In regard to so-called "Christians" who state that Orthodox Christians (as well as Catholics) are "idol worshippers," in my opinion, they have fallen prey to the half-truths of Protestantism and fundamentalism. It was sin and corruption, both in the Catholic Church at the time, and in the infant "Reformist" churches at the time that created these denominations. They profess a faith in Christ, but it is incomplete, as G.K. Chesterton once said.

I don't want to be misunderstood, and then lumped with these people who have thrown insults, bad words, and even persecuted the Orthodox Christians. As I have said, I have the utmost respect for them. Many are on the front lines of the civilizational battle that is going on right now. As I have called for in the past, devout Christians, and all who believe that Western/Christian civlization is worth fighting for, should band together and fight back the evils of secularism, atheism, militant Islam, and socialism/Communism that threaten us all. All of these forces all the tools of the Devil and his minions, in their ongoing spiritual warfare against devout Christians everywhere. We need to fight for what is true, good, and beautiful in this world.

33 posted on 02/08/2003 3:14:36 PM PST by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: CobaltBlue
Read it carefully, CobaltBlue

"Call that safe?

[...]'Safe' Srebrenica was supposed to be demilitarised but this did not stop Mr Oric's soldiers raiding nearby Serb villages. A recent raid, occuring soon after the collapse of the heavy-weapons exclusion zone around Sarajevo, plus the slow gathering of the West's reaction force, gave General Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb commander, the reasons he needed for extracting the thorn of Srebrenica from the Bosnian Serbs' eastern side. But Mr Oric escaped.[...]"

The Economist, 15-21 July 1995 (<- Click)


leader of the brave mudshahedin
Nasir Oric

Karadjordje

34 posted on 02/08/2003 3:25:56 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
Look at the date exactly, CobaltBlue!

"Nasir oric's war trophies don't line the wall of his comfortable apartment. They're on videocassette tape: burned serb houses and headless serb men, bodies crumpled in a pathetic heap. ... We had to use cold weapons that night,' Oric explains as scenes of dead men sliced by knives roll over his 21-inch Sony ... Reclining on an overstuffed couch, clothed head to toe in camouflage fatigues, U.S. Army patch proudly displayed over his heart ... the Muslim commander [Nasir Oric] is the toughest guy in this town, which the U.N. Security Council has declared a protected 'safe area.'"

The Washington Post, "Weapons, Cash and Chaos Lend Clout to Srebrenica's Tough Guy", February 16, 1994 (<- Click)


Bosnian Muslim Mudshahedin in action (CobaltBlue's civilized friends!)


Bosnian Muslim Mudshahedin in pretty pose (CobaltBlue's heroes!)


Bosnian Muslim Mudshahedin smiling (CobaltBlue's idols!)

Karadjordje

35 posted on 02/08/2003 3:42:59 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
This is what happened in Lebanon in the '70s and 80s too. Just like now, the media and the U.N. sided with the muslums in their assault against Christians. The same is true in Indonesia, Sudan, etc. The increasing global persecution of Christians is sponsored and protected by Western institutions.
36 posted on 02/08/2003 4:14:20 PM PST by Justa
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To: Karadjordje
Remember Bubba-1 saying all US troops would be withdrawn within 1 year? Remember everybody saying and thinking Bubba-2 would withdraw them? Now they have bowling alleys and movie theaters built there,and we are STILL supporting the wrong side! Do the Muslims REALLY have THAT much money?
Anybody know any Muslims we could maybe talk into buying a few congressmen and Senators to work for America?
37 posted on 02/08/2003 4:22:26 PM PST by sneakypete
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To: xJones
It was done under Clinton's presidency, which means no thought went into it.

Yes,and it still exists under Ali Bubba Bush's presidency,which means there is still no thought going into it,other than maybe pleasing his Muslim buddies in Saudi Arabia.

38 posted on 02/08/2003 4:24:36 PM PST by sneakypete
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To: Karadjordje
Bump for later read.
39 posted on 02/08/2003 4:31:41 PM PST by Gore_ War_ Vet (I told you so #;o))
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To: sneakypete
Yes,and it still exists under Ali Bubba Bush's presidency,which means there is still no thought going into it,other than maybe pleasing his Muslim buddies in Saudi Arabia.

The only argument I would have with you is that Ali Bubba dosen't love El Presidente Fox of Mexico even more.

40 posted on 02/08/2003 4:44:37 PM PST by xJones
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To: All

Here are some pictures of General Dragoljub "Cika Draza" Mihailovic and of the 54th Anniversary of Ravna Gora and the 50th Anniversary of V-E Day on the mountain top at Ravna Gora on May 13, 1995 in Serbia.


Commander in Chief
General Dragoljub "Cika Draza" Mihailovic



With the Chetnik High Command during WW2.



A WW2 Chetnik, 50 years later.



Rescued US airman, Maj. Richard Felman at Ravna Gora with the Draza Mihailovic Memorial

Capt. Lalich and Major Felman with the PRANJANI village priests in front of a memorial containing the names of the Chetniks from that area that were killed during World War II.



Chetniks and American Airmen commemorate the 54th Anniversary of Ravna Gora and the 50th Anniversary of V-E Day on the mountain top at Ravna Gora on May 13, 1995. Standing behind the man with the long stick is Capt. Nick Lalich and holding the flag is Major Richard Felman. To the left of Nick Lalich is Vojislav Mihailovich, the grandson of General Draza Mihailovich.

Rescued Airman Major Richard L. Felman with Chetnik Hat

A new generation of Chetniks at Ravna Gora.

A tearful first meeting between Richard Felman and Misha Stefanovich from Cacak, the son of the Chetnik corporal who saved his life over 50 years ago. After the war, the Communists killed Stefanovich’s father for allegedly turning Felman over to the Germans.

Karadjordje

41 posted on 02/08/2003 5:18:22 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: xJones
The only argument I would have with you is that Ali Bubba dosen't love El Presidente Fox of Mexico even more.

That's true because Fox represents millions to the Bush family through future sweetheart oil deals,and the Saud Royal family is old bidnez that is becoming high maintenence.

42 posted on 02/08/2003 5:25:30 PM PST by sneakypete
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue you can be more direct than this. Serbs practice the wrong religion. Clinton and the Democrats have to attack any religion not Roman or they loose Boston's vote.
"Times, they are changing" All moral religious people must unite against the Clinton's of the world. The Clinton's and the Demoncrats have been very successful in building a Godless society. We must fight back!!!!
43 posted on 02/08/2003 5:32:07 PM PST by Blake#1
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To: Karadjordje
Bump
44 posted on 02/08/2003 5:35:04 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Karadjordje
bttt
45 posted on 02/08/2003 5:37:15 PM PST by prognostigaator
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To: Karadjordje
LOL!
46 posted on 02/08/2003 6:09:28 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Justa
Serbs don't have any problems killing Christians. Croats are also Christians.
47 posted on 02/08/2003 6:10:29 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Blake#1
Is the moon full? What are y'all drinking? Too much slivovitz, from the way y'all are raving.
48 posted on 02/08/2003 6:12:33 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
A special information for CobaltBlue from me:

"[...] Over the past year, THE NEW AMERICAN has profiled 25 of these extraordinary individuals in a series entitled '20th Century Heroes.' (Other worthy candidates could have been profiled, space permitting.) In one of those essays - the one honoring World War II freedom fighter Draza Mihailovich - Fr. James Thornton observes: 'Without heroes and without heroic sacrifices, there would be no liberty, no law, no order, no justice, no civilization, no great nations or peoples, and no history as we understand that word. Without heroes, such records as might exist among men would be squalid tales of cravenness and brutality.' But thanks to heroes, the history of the 20th century is not confined to "squalid tales of cravenness and brutality.' Liberty, law, order, justice, civilization, and great nations and peoples still exist, even though all are under attack. Without 20th century heroes, the Total State would have triumphed long ago; because of them we still have the opportunity to save our Christian-style civilization. [...]"

http://www.aobs-store.com/reviews/tch.htm (<- Click)

You should order this book.

Karadjordje

49 posted on 02/08/2003 6:12:43 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
Draza Mihailovich fought the Communists. I doubt he'd be proud of Milosevic, a Communist.

I am surprised to see Communist sympathizers on Free Republic. Shame!
50 posted on 02/08/2003 6:18:06 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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