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China boom argument ignores the golden rule
scmp ^ | JAKE VAN DER KAMP

Posted on 02/12/2003 7:50:32 PM PST by maui_hawaii

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1 posted on 02/12/2003 7:50:32 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: *China stuff; *"Free" Trade
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
2 posted on 02/12/2003 7:53:24 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: maui_hawaii
What difference would it then make that the workshops are located in China? How does that constitute domination of the world economy?

It will make a big difference when we try to defend ourselves and the only place boots for our army are made is in China. Now, the technology is leaving the U.S. to China so some CEO can buy a third home in the Bahamas. Greed is killing the blue collar American and compromising your National security.

Go to the mentioned Walmart and try to but something made in the U.S...A few coat hangers, a Maglite flashlight, an American flag {but read the label, some flags are now made in China) and a Skil saw that has Made in U.S.A. written on the box. This must piss the Walmart crowd off. I really like when the label says: Made exclusivly for Walmart, Bentonville, AK... Made in China

3 posted on 02/12/2003 8:08:43 PM PST by dirtydanusa
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To: dirtydanusa
Slave labor is very cheap.


Never Again Speech
Boycott Made in China
The Laogai Research Foundation

4 posted on 02/12/2003 8:35:08 PM PST by HighRoadToChina (Never Again!)
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To: maui_hawaii
Yeah, and then when you pi$$ off your biggest customer, where do you go? The thing about America is, we will buy it cheaper when we can, but if we have to do for ourselves we are perfectly capable of doing it.
5 posted on 02/12/2003 8:49:59 PM PST by McGavin999
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To: maui_hawaii
I tend to agree with your analysis of the China Boom claims. And I would add a further corollary regarding oil demand, which makes the same point from another angle and also points up the vulnerability of China's economy and political system to protracted economic war against the US and Russia, which I believe has been under way in earnest since late 1998.

First, note that China has gone from being an oil exporter in 1993 to being a major importer, single-handedly accounting for a large share of cross-border growth in world oil consumption. It needs to keep growing those imports to grow its economy, which uses about 5 times the energy per unit of GNP that the US uses.

The US, of course, is still a bigger absolute user and importer of oil. So the runup in world oil prices above $35/bbl, or nearly triple their low in late 1998, would hurt us more than the Chinese. Not so. Because we are also the predominant SELLERS of oil. By "we" I mean the western oil majors, the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Mexicans, PdVSA (if not Chavez) and now the Russians, who more or less are now politically alligned. We take the money out of one pocket and put it in another of "our" pockets. The Chinese just pay and pay...US or our allies.

I think it is no coincidence that the oil strike in Venezuela, which took a couple of million bbl/d off the market, has come just as China has been desperately trying to build up a strategic petroleum reserve. Indeed, the real reason behind the Iraq war threats is not so much for us to get ahold of cheap oil for ourselves: It is to keep it out of the hands of Chinese, who have a little known concession to develop a major oil field there.

Notice who the "terrorist states" are: Sudan, Yemen, Iran, Iraq. It is no mere coincidence that they also happen to be the bigggest oil exporters to the PRC, according to the EIA. And that French tanker blown up offshore Yemen? Dollars to donuts that was Sudan crude destined for China. Make no mistake about it, the US and Russia, Japan, Europe and all of South Asia are worried silly about China: its massive population, its ruthless trade practices, its brutal totalitarian proclivities. Especially the Russians, who are out-numbered across the Siberian border by something like 100 or more to one. The numbers are relentless and pose an inevitable strategic threat to anyone who gets in China's way. Which is why, after the Clinton Administration's "nice doggie" approach to this doberman, we have undertaken a defacto encirclement and isolation campaign against China. And they're pissed.

Ask yourself why oil prices are so high? It's not because the world is running out of oil, or that demand is all that robust (despite a cold winter). OPEC is showing unprecendented production restraint. All the US majors have cut capex and are actually lowering production when common sense would say "make hay while the sun shines." Washington, however, says nothing and even encourages such cartel behavior. Not to merely make Bush family friends rich. It is a geopolitical squeeze play aimed squarely at our one and only real world strategic threat: China.

It is equivalent to the oil embargo we placed on Japan before WWII, but more subtly applied. A sort of rubber-hose treatment that leaves no visible body marks, or fingerprints. But I assure you the Chinese feel the pain and see what's going on. And they are making a continual calculation of relative strength: are they growing stronger or weaker against the West day by day, year by year. On the surface, they seem to be stronger. But their long-range thinkers have to see the squeeze play going on and wondering when they will have maximum relative strength to undertake the inevitable confrontation they KNOW is just a matter of time.

A senior foreign diplomat friend of mine, who knows the Chinese well, said a couple of years ago the Chinese have come to assume there will be a major confrontation with the US within the next 10 years or so. My fear is that they may move up the timetable. Not because of their strength, as argued in the article, but because of their increasing vulnerability.

That is a worrisome thought, and one against which the North Korean situation must be viewed. We are witnessing the playing out of very high stakes poker. And Iraq is just a side-bet.

6 posted on 02/12/2003 9:15:33 PM PST by Tenega
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To: Tenega
thanks for that analysis.
7 posted on 02/13/2003 7:35:13 AM PST by Red Jones
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To: maui_hawaii
bump
8 posted on 02/13/2003 9:20:13 AM PST by Red Jones
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To: Tenega
RE #6

If N. Korean crisis blows, bye-bye to Chinese boom. E. Asian economy could tank. China has to deal with angry Japan.

9 posted on 02/14/2003 4:31:55 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: Tenega
A recent Wall Street Journal article stated that as of this year China has become the world's 4th largest auto market. Every major car maker is setting up factories in China as fast as possible, and GM's CEO even said that the profit margin on a car sold is China these days is twice that of one sold in the US. In light of this, it's hard to imagine the US tring to cut off China's oil supply anytime soon. If the US decided to cut off China's oil supply, it'd just end up destroying the Fortune 500's most promising future market. The Fortune 500 isn't investing in China these days merely so that the US can ruin their investment. In an age of globalization and saturated markets in the West, the biggest source of growth over the next several decades is China. And it's not just the car industry that wants China to get as much oil as possible. It's the banking (auto loans), construction (highways, bridges), fast food industry (drive-thru restaurants), and every other industry that benefits from the growth of China's car industry that wants China to get as much oil as possible. We live in an interrelated, globalized world today, and it's really hard to isolate what will eventually become the world's largest economy. China's GDP will exceed America's around 2020 and be twice as big around 2050. China will be the main source of revenue for the Fortune 500. China today is already the #2 PC market and the #2 market for tech companies like Intel, the #1 market for light bulbs, cell phones, elevators, air conditioners, beer, and scores of other product categories. The only thing America would achieve by cutting off China's oil is bankrupt the Fortune 500 and, thus, America itself.

In addition, the rest of Asia eventually got rich off of cheap exports to the West too. So now China is following this proven strategy. China may have low wages today but eventually they'll rise like they did in Japan or S. Korea. The 100 mil. people living along China's coast already enjoy a standard of living on par with S. Korea or Taiwan. 20 years ago, that wasn't the case. Over the next 20 years, you can expect another 100-200 mil. people to join this middle class. Then China will have a middle-class population almost as big as America's entire population. And then China has the rest of the century to pull ahead.

The author of this article worries about foreigners owning too large a portion of China's economy. But this is a bogus argument. Even in the US, only 5% of the US GDP eventually ends up in the hands of shareholders. The vast bulk of the rest of the 95% goes to employee wages ultimately. Same with China. And these days, lots of people claim foreign investors aren't making any profit at all in China, which only means that average Chinese are getting even more than 95%.

10 posted on 02/14/2003 10:47:28 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Every Japanese corporation is investing like mad in China these days. China is about the only hope for Japan's economic future really. There's Hitachi, Honda, Toyota, Sony factories popping up all the time in China these days. If Japan ever went to war with China, it'd just end bankrupting most of its own large companies.
11 posted on 02/14/2003 10:52:38 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TaiwanSemiconductor
Re #11

They can always go someplace else if China is unavailable. By the way, welcome back formorsaplastics!

12 posted on 02/15/2003 2:53:02 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Where are they gonna go? As we speak, foreign investors are pulling out of democratic Third World basketcase countries like Indonesia and Brazil. Democracy in these Third World countries has only brought about dysfunctional government plagued not only by gridlock but all sorts of other societal commotion that scares away foreign investors like the Japanese. Witness Venezuela. After America preached democracy to Latin America, America is faced with a bunch of democratically-elected socialists like Hugo Chavez and Brazil's Lula. In Argentina, the local Citibank branch offices had to board up their windows because Argentians daily try to throw bricks through them.
13 posted on 02/15/2003 12:46:51 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TaiwanSemiconductor
RE #13

They can go back to S.E. Asia. There is also a political cost to consider. What caught up with Latin America can affect China, too. They were not exactly democratic for a long time. China can play fast and loose during the boom time. We will see how well China deal with her people when the bust comes.

14 posted on 02/15/2003 6:18:01 PM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: Tenega
*bump* for outstanding Freeper analysis
15 posted on 02/15/2003 6:28:59 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: TigerLikesRooster
There's capital flight out of SE Asia as we speak. Indonesia, the largest country in SE Asia, has had $10 bil. of capital flight a year for each of the past 5 years. And the cause? Indonesia's democratization about 5 years ago, which transformed Indonesia into such a weak, rudderless, lawless society that SE ASia today is considered one of the prime breeding grounds for terrorists! Who'd want to invest in such a place?

Indonesia isn't the first country to experience capital flight after going democratic. All of Latin America today is experiencing capital flight after abandoning authoritarian rule. A recent Washington Post op-ed noted that Latin America's GDP growth rate today after adopting democracy is only 1/10th of what it was in the preceding 20 years when Latin America was ruled by authoritarian governments like Pinochet's.

Ironic, isn't it? It just seems that whenever a country goes democratic, capital flight follows. It happened in Russia, even Taiwan after Pres. Chen got elected 2 years ago. Taiwan's lost more money in the past 2 years than in all of the previous 8 years combined! Foreign investors don't like the inherently weak, chaotic governments that result when Third World countries adopt democracy and tend to flee. Every Taiwanese thinks Taiwan's grid-lock plagued pariliament is a chaotic joke. The Western liberal intelligentsia preach democracy all day but their foreign investor counterparts all flee whenever a Third World country adopts democracy and put their money into authoritarian China instead.

16 posted on 02/15/2003 6:53:00 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TigerLikesRooster
You also predicted China's economy may experience a "bust." There's no doubt that China's economy will eventually slow down, but China today is like where Japan or S. Korea was back in 1960. China is really only just getting started today.
17 posted on 02/15/2003 6:55:32 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TaiwanSemiconductor
Re #16

If you love authoritarian rule so much, at least China should do it like Singapore. If things continue as they are, China will be like a corrupt authoritarian country with failing economy. I won't worry too much if China is doing 1/10 of Singapore. Don't forget that.

18 posted on 02/15/2003 6:57:16 PM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster
The only failed economies these days are those of the Third World republics. You predict China will "one day" fail while ignoring that today's Third World republics have already failed! Given a choice between being the next one-party E. Asian success story or a democratic Third World basketcase, the choice is easy for China to make.
19 posted on 02/15/2003 7:04:42 PM PST by TaiwanSemiconductor
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To: TaiwanSemiconductor
RE #19

You are really silent on Singapore angle. China has incompetent corrupt authoritarians who are more interested in wallowing in coming glory, and whipping up people's expectation too high. Singapore did none of that.

Besides, neither S. Korea nor Japan had sick banking system like China does now when they develop.

20 posted on 02/15/2003 7:24:18 PM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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