Assault rifles offer a bit too much for home defense

Indy Star ^

[ezoeni]

engine block - big deal. 30 rounds from a AK at a car will pretty much render the car and occupants useless. AKs are fantastic rifles for urban under 150 yards combat. I wouldn't want to have one firing in my direction in anyway.

[wita]

Unless one has an M1 Abrams in the driveway, with a trained crew from the neighborhood, an F-16 or F-22 on the ramp, a ring mount 50 caliber mg on the roof and an arsenal in the home, you are letting someone else do your job. That's how I feel about government telling honest citizens who love their country, what they can and can't do. Ok, maybe we could shrink down to a VFW grade used Patton, a P-51, and a box of rocks on the roof, and the arsenal stays.

[JavaTheHutt]

I'm curious why people always tout pump shotguns. I have a Remmington semi-auto 12 ga. which works just fine. I'll admit that the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber is pretty intimidating, but there must be more to it than that.

Nope. That's really all there is to it. A semi auto beats a pump action 9 ways to Sunday for squeezing off a second shot at the second perp, but the sound of a pump action being readied for that first shot could very well eliminate the need for even one shot to be fired.

[yarddog]

The Benelli M-1 super 90 or is it super 90 M1, is a beautiful gun and looks wicked. I suspect it is just as reliable as everyone says but I only kept mine a month or so and traded it off.

The problem is everytime I fired it, the thing kicked the living daylights out of me. It kicks worse than a pump. I almost wonder if they didn't build a recoil accelerator into it.

I plan on getting one of the Remington 11-87's which have been remade into combat configuration as soon as I can afford it. I don't think Remington makes one but am not sure.

Actually I think a 7.62X39 just might crack an engine block if it didn't have to penetrate sheet metal, plus a generator, or air conditoning compressor to get to it. Of course if he meant penetrate as going right through it, then of course not.

[humblegunner]

Eeeevil assault rifle ping.

[Blood of Tyrants]

I have one of the K-31's. Great rifle. However, the ammo is somewhat expensive and not readily available. Mail order is about the only way to go.

If money is a serious issue (as with most of us) you need to go here http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Curio___Relic_Rifles.html and get yourself one of the Yugo SKS's at the bottom of the page. At $110 shipped to your FFL dealer it's price can't be beat. Low recoil, cheap ammo, cheap 20 and 30 round mags available, excellent reliability, and fair accuracy. I have bought 2 of them and they are great rifles.

Take off that folding bayonet to shed a pound of weight.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Exactly. The best gunfight is the one that you avoid.

[chicagolady]

I could not have said it better myself! We should have sent some of those to the common folk in Afganistan to ward off the Taliban!

[chicagolady]

Ok, where do I sign? do you take personal checks? Visa? Master Card?

[chicagolady]

Chicago Big Gun Bump! Oh wait! We can not have guns in Chicago, never mind!

[FreedomPoster]

Homeland Defense Rifle bump!

[FreedomPoster]

>>but the sound of a pump action being readied for that first shot could very well eliminate the need for even one shot to be fired.

Anecdotal story - many years ago, my cousin cleared out an intruder from his ground-level apartment with that sound. Never saw the guy, who had snuck in through an open window, and got away with a few bucks and some pocket artifacts that were on the kitchen table.

I suspect that guy had to clean his shorts after leaving in haste.

[harpseal]

I stand corrected. I guess it will be nostalgia for the old west that governs.

[Constitution Day]

dumber than a bag of scared hammers

LMAO!

[Blue Jays]

Good Morning All-

Everyone keeps on talking about the imaginary benefits of "racking the slide" to frighten a potential home invader. If your shotgun doesnt't have a round chambered before the fight starts, you're already behind.

Guess what? You don't need to "warn" goblins about the danger of being shot in another man's castle. Criminals already accept that job-related danger.

If the scumbag is armed, he'll turn around a shoot you before you can bring your shotgun to your shoulder. With the shotgun aimed at center-mass, you can optionally command the criminal to leave, lay down, or whatever...but you don't have a moral responsibility to telegraph your actions beforehand.

No flame intended, but there tends to be quite a bit of misinformation distributed online about shotgun technique.

~ Blue Jays ~

[razorback-bert]

Gee, I am sure under powered with my $50 rusted Sears (Stevens) single shot 16 guage.

[FreedomPoster]

You can hear a round being racked from a couple of rooms away. Someone else made the point that the best gunfight is the one that doesn't occur, and those that like the "noise scares 'em off" aspect of pumpguns have a point. I don't think anyone is suggesting not racking until you see a goblin.

For me, I prefer a much-more-"wieldy" pistol inside my house. There are many opinions, there is no, one, "right" way, that's why there are horse races.

[LTCJ]

You can hear a round being racked from a couple of rooms away. ..."noise scares 'em off"...

IMHO, that's what the dog is for. He's the o'dark-early warning system and first line of defense. Anything that gets through him will have missed the chance at hearing me chamber shell.

[Marauder]

Dang that hurt!

Yeah buddy. I guess an alternative option to the folding stock would be to install one of those overhead racks from Cabela's; out of sight out of mind, and room for my favorite rifle as well.

[matthew_the_brain]

Engine block is a bit of an exaggeration, although as a younger man, i was able to make a cast iron frying pan look like swiss cheese with my AR 15.....

[from occupied ga]

Even #7 1/2 bird shot at 20 feet will inflict a wicked wound that will take the fight right out of an intruder.

Unless the intruder is wearing a IIA vest.

[from occupied ga]

This is not to say that a shotgun is not an execellent home defense pice just that like everything it has its limitations.

You forgot about the one where the home invaders are wearing kevlar vests. Shotgun is worthless in this situation. AK or AR round will do just fine here.

[Nebr FAL owner]

If you get a Fal go with the metric version rather than inch, reason being more magazines at lower price also the inch pattern mags have a small metal piece brazed/welded on the top front of the magazine just below the feed lips to strengthen the magazine while you can put metric pattern mags in a inch rifle & have them function you can't do the same with inch pattern mags in a metric rifle unless you grind the little metal tab off since there is no space milled out of the reciever to accomodate the tab

[bc2]

I, too have a Mossberg 590 with 20" barrel, full-length tube that holds 8 (+1 in the chamber!), ghost ring sights, and speed feed stock.

I sleep better at night knowing that anything coming in without an invitation will be scraped up and put into a bodybag.

[Shooter 2.5]

Absolutely.

If this so-called great idea of chambering a round in the dark and when a person is nervous is so wonderful, why isn't it used for every weapon?

All weapons can be chambered or revolver cylinders closed. Why is it only applicable to shotguns?

Answer: it isn't.

The only solution is to be aware of where the housebreaker is before he knows where the homeowner is. The homeowner should be behind hard cover and holding a ready weapon. Everything else is Hollywood B.S.

[harpseal]

Gee, I am sure under powered with my $50 rusted Sears (Stevens) single shot 16 guage.

It is not the gun it is the man behind the gun that counts. Some of us do live by the rule one can never ever have too many guns.

[Nebr FAL owner]

One other little oddity concerning FN-Fal's if you do get one be certain to check the gas piston /operating rod several folks have been cutting the steel rod in half & then threading on an aluminum piece at the end to make the rod the correct length to qualify as a required American made part. The problem is that after firing a few dozen round the aluminum BENDS & is able to cause damage to the reciever end of the gas system but for $20.00 you can get a new made stainless steel gas piston as well as other parts from tapco.com .

[SauronOfMordor]

"You just point it in the general vicinity, and you're actually going to hit what you're pointing toward, because (the shot) scatters."
Only very slightly at indoor distances.

Shot generally expands about 1 inch per yard of travel, which translates into a plate-size pattern at the end of the hall

Although one time I did absent-mindedly shoot buckshot through a rifled 12-guage barrel (which is designed for rifled slugs). It produced a yard-wide doughnut pattern at 7 yards, due to the spin imparted to the buckshot.

[sneakypete]

No flame intended, but there tends to be quite a bit of misinformation distributed online about shotgun technique.

EXACTLY! Racking your slide when you have a intruder in your home mostly accomplished two things,you give away your position to a intruder who may be armed with a gun that is already loaded,and you risk a jam by "short-stroking" it while under pressure. Don't laugh. It happens. So does forgetting to take the safety off.

[sneakypete]

Gee, I am sure under powered with my $50 rusted Sears (Stevens) single shot 16 guage.

Shhhh! If they want to think that,let them.

[harpseal]

Regarding the Kevlar vests. A shotgun is not necessarily worthless in these cases but one would need to have the foresight to use Flechette rounds. Further unless the armor plates were also used it would cause significant blunt trauma to the individual wearing the vest. In short it may just give sufficient time for the head shot.

Is it the best weapon for such without the aforementioned flechette rounds? Probably not, but it is still not useless.

[sneakypete]

There are many opinions, there is no, one, "right" way,

No,but there is only one "right" way that increases your chance of survival,and that is the one that doesn't give away your position until you are in a position to control the situation. Why not just shout out,"Here I come! If you have a gun,you had better shoot me on sight!"?

[sneakypete]

Shotgun is worthless in this situation.

Not really. Shoot for the hands and disarm and bleed them out at the same time.

[from occupied ga]

Is it the best weapon for such without the aforementioned flechette rounds? Probably not, but it is still not useless

Flenchette rounds are not common. Probably most people don't have them.

significant blunt trauma to the individual wearing the vest

Agreed, but I'll take penetration of the enemy over blunt trauma any day, and the military style rifles beat a shotgun for that Of course a good ol' 30-06 has pretty good penetration too. I'm not sure even a trauma plate will stop one of those. Mostly the trauma plates are rated for .308

[from occupied ga]

Not really. Shoot for the hands and disarm and bleed them out at the same time.

You shoot for the arms and hands. You may be cool enough under fire to aim at the arms and hands, but I'll go with the center of mass with my AK where I have a better chance of hitting.

[AnAmericanMother]

How does the .416 Rigby compare with the .375 H&H?

I've always been a .30 cal rifle shooter (.308, .303 Brit, .30'06, and my dad's .348 Win), but I'm thinking about adding a big game rifle to the stable. I'm a traditionalist and the English calibers are appealing. The next question is whether to go with a double or a magazine type rifle . . .

I love the .348, but (1) it's my dad's and HE's got it (2) it's an orphan (I do the reloading for him) (3) it's purely a close range gun, those big old pills really fall off after about 100 yards

[Taxman]

Does anyone on this forum find it odd that with all the advice we have been peppered with about Terrorism and such, not one (save the usual pro-2nd Amendment folks) person or agency has recommended that we carry a personal weapon 24/7? And provide ourselves adequate "home and land defense?"

I know logid is number six (sex, politics, pecking order, budget, schedule, logic) in the decision tree, but it seems logical to me that if the bad guys knew that the good guys were carrying, they would be less apt to commit an act of terror.

For example, on 9-11, had four citizens (one per plane) been armed, nearly 3,000 people would still be alive, and 19 bad guys would be dead. Four handguns and 19 bullets would have done the trick.

One could logically (There you go again with that "logic" stuff, Taxman!) conclude that the government's obsession with "security" caused nearly 3,000 deaths, couldn't one?

"An armed society is a polite society?"

Just a thought . . .

[Gritty]

Whatever works best for you in your individual circumstances is what you should have for home defense. Only you can determine that - not the writer of this article!

Quite frankly, I'm less worried about an Al Qaeda terrorist bursting through my front door than an Al Qaeda attack which leads to civil breakdown, in which case home-grown looters and criminals may come through my "defenseless" neighborhood looking for easy prey. I would like to have something that can stop them further away than my front door.

In the case of looters, they generally travel in packs, so it is prudent to have something that can take on a vicious pack at a variety of ranges, which can mean more than one or two rounds. The same weapon should suffice nicely for lesser numbered and more crafty criminals that might show up.

An assault rifle of some type works fine in all these circumstances, whereas Dad's old double barreled shotgun might not - despite the writer's insinuation that anything more is silly.

[Constitutional Patriot]

"The AK-47 will give you a jolt, but with that kick you get a larger round capable, they say, of going through a car's engine block. "

A Yugo, perhaps....

I also hear that these rifles are only effective out to 200 meters.

[sneakypete]

I'll go with the center of mass with my AK where I have a better chance of hitting.

Modern JBT body armor will defeat a AK round --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[SauronOfMordor]

I am so sorry, but the main purpose of an assault rifle is to wound, NOT kill.

Using mil-surplus FMJ ammo, that's true. But you can also get hollow-point expanding hunting ammo in those calibres that will do a lot more damage

[Travis McGee]

Only if they are wearing hard composite armor plates, which cover the 8X10" of their "center mass".

They are under 4 pounds now, and while not common, are getting fairly common for police raiding units in full gear.

Ditto kevlar (pistol proof only) helmets.

[Inyo-Mono]

Gee, I am sure under powered with my $50 rusted Sears (Stevens) single shot 16 guage.

LOL! I've got an old 16 guage Stevens double barrel hammer gun for home protection. It was made in the 1930s, and it's quick, no safety, just cock the hammers and fire.

[Constitutional Patriot]

"If you are looking at the sub $500 FAL's"

Does this include the Cemte rifles (.308) that I have seen at a lot of the gun shows lately? They look a little rough, but not to the point of being junk. I was thinking of getting one.

[from occupied ga]

Modern JBT body armor will defeat a AK round

Yes standard rounds and IF they have trauma plates, but.. look here

I understand that if you "roll your own" you can get similar performance with a core of hardened T-15 (NOT that I would do anything like that of course :-)

[sneakypete]

I'm curious why people always tout pump shotguns.

The theory is that they are less prone to jam than a autoloader. Provided that your high state of excitement doesn't cause you to "short-stroke" it,that is.

They are also the cheapest multi-shot shotgun,and I'm sure that has something to do with it.

[SauronOfMordor]

You forgot about the one where the home invaders are wearing kevlar vests. Shotgun is worthless in this situation. AK or AR round will do just fine here.

If the first shot doesn't do the job, aim low. Most non-SWAT-level vests don't cover the pelvic area, and having your testicles blown off and your femoral artery severed will take the fight out of most people.

[sneakypete]

My home defense weapon is a Ithaca model 37

THE finest pump shotgun ever built! I keep mine loaded with #4 buckshot. If I lived in a city or in a apartment,I would probably keep it loaded with #6 or #4 shot. This is providing I lived in a warm climate. If I lived in the north where a intruder is likely to be wearing layers of clothing or even a leather jacket,I'm most likely go to #2 shot or heavier.

[Squantos]

I have fired a whole lot of AK ammo both professionally and for fun at all sorts of materials and targets . Even the steel core russian issue didn't bust an engine block on our range targets. Exhaust manifolds, radiators, batteries, car doors and PS1 and 2 glass with deflection but never saw a water jacket or block crack. But that is just my experience with it.

Recoil is indeed the Benelli's nemisis IMO. As you know a spare round can stack on the follower if loaded carefully giving a capacity of 9 rounds. With the "Vang" modifications to the barrel the recoil is lessened to a certain degree while enhancing the lethality, accuracy and speed of the hits in the "A" zone.

Ability to handle recoil is a skill that must be "learned" with regards to such a firearm as the M1 Benelli. Managing such recoil is not easy but when mastered the Benelli is indeed a wonder to watch in the hands of such a skilled shooter.

Uncle Sugar sent me to a lot of schools to learn such or I may have done as you did, dropping / selling the M1 for a new Scatter-Gun Tech /Wilson or stock remington pump.

Stay Safe !

[sneakypete]

For the less-well informed, you post is entirely misleading.

The AK round IS the ballistic equivalent of the old 30/30 Winchester,though. When was the last time you heard a 30/30 being refered to as a "high-powered rifle"?

BTW,generally speaking,the AK series of rifles are the most inaccurate pieces of crap ever made,and if you hit a man with one at 200 yards,it could be considered to be a accidential shooting. Even the old 30/30 lever actions are much more accurate.

They are super reliable,though.