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Missouri Cherokee Tribes proclaim Jewish Heritage
Christians Unite dot com ^ | February 7, 2003 | Editorial Staff

Posted on 02/21/2003 1:42:37 PM PST by vannrox

Missouri Cherokee Tribes proclaim Jewish Heritage


by Staff
February 7, 2003

The Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory has recently shocked the world by claiming their ancient Oral legends tell of a Cherokee migration made to America from the area known as Masada.

This startling evidence is being offered to the public by Beverly Baker Northup whom is the spokesperson for their organization. The evidence offered in support of this connection to Cherokees escaping the mountain fortress of Masada is based in part of what Northup claims is stories passed down from elders and the similarity between ancient words.

Beverly Baker Northup believes there is a connection between these two peoples based on evidence of Jews of the region around Masada during Roman times wearing braided hair and the similarities that the spokesperson attributes to Hebrew language.

In explaining this connection Beverly Baker Northup is quoted as saying:

"The story has been kept alive among our Cherokee people that the Sicarii who escaped from Masada, are some of our ancestors who managed to cross the water to this land, and later became known as Cherokees. (Please note the phonetic resemblance of Si'cari'i and, Cherokee or Tsa'ra-gi'.)"

Northup claims that the famous scholar Josephus wrote that there were escapees from Masada in which the spokesperson for the Northern Cherokee states that this is evidence that gives credence to this connection between the Cherokee Indians and the Jews.

In addition to other startling claims, there is also the belief by the Northern Cherokee that a rock that was uncovered in Tennessee in 1889 that is named the Bat Creek Stone, proves a transatlantic connection to Jews.

Northup believes that the scratched writings on the rock indicate that the stone is evidence of a first century Atlantic Crossing to America by these escaped Jews that later became known as the Northern Cherokee Indians.

The Northern Cherokee attempted to gain full legislative recognition in the State of Missouri in 1985 that was eventually vetoed by Governor John Ashcroft. Governor Ashcroft made the following statement concerning his decision to veto the recognition of the Northern Cherokee:

"The Federal Government has traditionally exercised authority with respect to Indian Affairs. I am not persuaded that the state has such a substantial interest in this area that it should become involved in the recognition of Indian tribes."

Sources among some federally recognized Indian Tribes have stated that Mr. Ashcroft's comments were 100% correct and should be referred to from time to time.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Missouri
KEYWORDS: bible; cherokee; decalogue; godsgravesglyphs; heritage; history; indian; jew; jewish; loslunas; losttribes; oy; past; tencommandments; tribe
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To: C19H28O2
"Anger Management for Dummies"
151 posted on 02/21/2003 6:37:39 PM PST by ApesForEvolution (This space for rent (Not accepting bids from the United Nations))
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To: blam
Wax on, wax off?
152 posted on 02/21/2003 6:38:43 PM PST by Old Professer
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To: Bosco
They would be double victims, right? Indian and Jewish.

SIGH.

153 posted on 02/21/2003 6:38:49 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Eleven. Exactly. One louder.)
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To: Hodar; StolarStorm; fishtank; drstevej
The masada incident occurred in 66 AD and Masada was builty by King Herod. Now the Book of mormon has the Jews coming over in 600 b.c. over 600 years BEFORE Masada was built.

If this story of the Cherokee connection to Masada is true, it does not validate Joseph Smith, it repudiates him.

You'd better go looking for some new golden plates because the ones Joe Smith dug up are not vindicated by this legend.

Keep Trying.

154 posted on 02/21/2003 6:41:43 PM PST by P-Marlowe (If the King James Version was good 'nuff for Old Moses then its good 'nuff for me.)
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To: Spunky
Yes, I read your post and bookmarked the link.

If DNA suggests that the American Indians are closer related to peoples of Asia (rather than the Jews), then I would think that the Umatilla Tribe could still lay claim to the Kennewick man.

155 posted on 02/21/2003 6:42:16 PM PST by RipeforTruth
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To: Eastbound
"Similar to Sumer, it appears. Wouldn't surprise me if they find evidence showing both had the same benefactor(s)."

LOL. I just completed reading the book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, by Dr Robert Scoch, that's exactly the theme of this book. He speculates that all the world's pyramid builders came from the Sunda Shelf (around present Indonesia) as the shelf went underwater at the end of the last Ice Age. I found out from this book that the world's second oldest bronze metal working site is in Thailand.

156 posted on 02/21/2003 6:44:22 PM PST by blam
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To: Hodar
Please, J. Smith was a false prophet.
157 posted on 02/21/2003 6:45:03 PM PST by Hila
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To: Spunky
'Arlington Springs Woman,' 13,000 Years Old Skeleton, California Island
158 posted on 02/21/2003 6:50:02 PM PST by blam
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To: Spunky
"If I recall Jim Chatters said the Kennewick Man most resembled Asiatic ancestary."

The DNA analysis on Kennewick Man was officially declared 'undetermined.' Unofficially Chatters gives a 'rough' rundown of the DNA that was obtained and Ainu at 23% was the highest.

Chatters said that there are no American Indian/Native American (as we know them today) skeletons ever found in North America that are older than 6,000 years.
Skeletons like Kennewick Man, Spirit Cave Man, Buhl Woman and etc, belong to another earlier and completely different racial group of people than the American Indians.

159 posted on 02/21/2003 6:59:37 PM PST by blam
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To: Illbay; fishtank; drstevej; C19H28O2
I think it's "sad and sick" to believe that we are all doomed because Adam transgressed.

You're not doomed because Adam transgressed;
You are doomed because you're LDS

Hey that rhymes!

160 posted on 02/21/2003 7:04:42 PM PST by P-Marlowe (If the King James Version was good 'nuff for Old Moses then its good 'nuff for me.)
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To: Alouette
So? You think this guy's practice just started overnight?

http://www.torahview.com/bris/
161 posted on 02/21/2003 7:06:21 PM PST by ohmage
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To: Spunky

9,400 year old Spirit Cave Man was found in a cave in Nevada. He is also the oldest mummy ever found in the Americas. See the resemblance to Kennewick Man.

162 posted on 02/21/2003 7:07:42 PM PST by blam
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To: C19H28O2
I try to reserve my hate for satan and his cohorts.

Billdo and Shrillary do test that resolve at times.

Hating the willfully ignorant could keep one extremely busy.

Children and the mentally challenged can be easy to love. Living anxious for nothing can be very attractive.

Thanks for an informative reply.
163 posted on 02/21/2003 7:12:48 PM PST by Quix (OTHER TASKS DELAY ME BUT STILL PLANNING TO GET KATHLEEN'S FINAL WARNING EXCERPTS UP)
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To: blam
The DNA analysis on Kennewick Man was officially declared 'undetermined.' Unofficially Chatters gives a 'rough' rundown of the DNA that was obtained and Ainu at 23% was the highest.

You are correct. I couldn't remember Ainu.

164 posted on 02/21/2003 7:29:26 PM PST by Spunky
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To: CCWoody; P-Marlowe; Wrigley
***Equal parts Cherokee & Sioux. ***

That makes you part Indian and part lawyer!
165 posted on 02/21/2003 7:55:19 PM PST by drstevej
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To: kcamtx
The language before the Tower of Babel was not Hebrew, nor was it even Judaic-based. That started in the time of Abraham who came along some time after the Tower.
166 posted on 02/21/2003 7:57:56 PM PST by frosty snowman
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To: vannrox
When the Cherokees were forcibly removed to Oklahoma many of them later intermarried with the incoming white settlers.
When the US government started a registration of the indians many people, ashamed of their indian ancestery refused to enroll.
When the government started giving the enrolled indians MONEY everyone in Oklahoma suddenly "discovered" indian ancestery and claimed to have a "jen-u-wine chero-kee indian prin-cess" as a grandmother.
Now, several indian groups in Missouri and the Ketowa Cherokees in Arkansas want recognition from the government that they are true indians. This means government checks, land set asides, freedom from state laws and CASINOS! What are the old jokes about jews and money?
167 posted on 02/21/2003 7:58:03 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (My great great grandmother was a jen-u-wine chero-kee indian princess! Pay up, white man!)
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To: Quix
Would that be Blood Atonement? Gary Gilmore wanted to be shot due to this particular Mormon teaching (his mom was a very dysfunctional Mormon). Most modern LDS do not discuss this topic much (tends to really get a less than positive reaction for some reason). Polygamists do use this as a threat according to Tapestry of Polygamy.
168 posted on 02/21/2003 8:06:47 PM PST by CARepubGal (I want to see the Klintoons report to Marion Prison's underground cellblock as inmates)
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To: CARepubGal
Yes, I think that's what they call it.

Interesting. Didn't know that about Gilmore.

I can imagine how popular is to talk about. Especially if you're a Jack Mormon amongst a bunch of rabid TRUE BELIEVERS.

169 posted on 02/21/2003 8:21:13 PM PST by Quix (OTHER TASKS DELAY ME BUT STILL PLANNING TO GET KATHLEEN'S FINAL WARNING EXCERPTS UP)
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To: Texas Mom
"The Mormans have believed the Indians to be the lost tribe of Israel for a long time."

Just to go into some detail on that...

We belive that about 600 years before Christ a group of Isrealites (from the tribe of Joseph) were lead by God out of the Holy Land and to the americas. After they got there, they divided into two civilizations that were frequently at war with eachother. In about 400AD, both civiization pretty much destroyed themselves in a brutal war. We claim that at least some native american tribes are decendants of the survivors of that war, although no specific tribe is identified as being direct descendants of them.

The Book of Mormon (a record made the prophets of God among these people) mentions other groups being there before them, and arriving after them as well (and also group of them leaving on exploration trips and never being heard from again), so although this claim by the Cherokee doesn't directly relate to the civilizations that are the focus of the Book of Mormon, it certainly is supportive of the Book of Mormon being just what it claims to be.
170 posted on 02/21/2003 8:28:17 PM PST by Grig
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To: Quix
Bessie Gilmore was born and raised in Provo Utah and did teach her version of being Mormon to her 4 boys. The youngest child Mikal is a writer who had some interesting (and sometimes horriffic) stories from childhood. I would have to say Bessie does NOT represent conventional Mormons but does speak for the folks who wear tinfoil.
171 posted on 02/21/2003 8:33:38 PM PST by CARepubGal (I want to see the Klintoons report to Marion Prison's underground cellblock as inmates)
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To: flying Elvis
"What does the DNA say?"

DNA is very limited when it comes to trying to determine who all your ancestors are. After nearly 2000 years of being appart I expect it would be nearly impossible to find a strong genetic link between current day Cherokee and Jews.
172 posted on 02/21/2003 8:35:57 PM PST by Grig
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To: stand watie; rmlew
You seen this one yet??!
173 posted on 02/21/2003 8:40:36 PM PST by Black Agnes
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To: xm177e2
"Didn't Joseph Smith also say the natives here were white, and were turned dark-skinned by God when they refused to accept Him?"

When they arrived in the americas, one group rebelled against God and made it a point to teach their kids to hate and kill the other group. God made their skin darken so that the other group could tell them apart and keep separate from them for their own safety.

"Because that don't exactly follow modern science... "

Neither does walking on water or thousands of other things in the scriptures. That's why we call them miracles.
174 posted on 02/21/2003 8:43:16 PM PST by Grig
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To: Quix
"He also taught that some people's sins are soooooo bad that even Christ's blood isn't good enough to cover them [WHAT BLASPHEMY!]. "

Is it also blasphemy when Christ teaches it?

Matt 12:32 ...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall NOT be aforgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

"And that therefore, the super guilty people have to shed their own blood for their own sins. "

I think you should read this before making such accusations:
http://www.shields-research.org/General/blood_atonement.htm
175 posted on 02/21/2003 8:47:48 PM PST by Grig
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To: Quix
"by someone convicted a number of times of defrauding farmers . . . "

The only thing he was ever convicted of was of casting out an evil spirit. The judge then noted there was no law against it and released him.

"telling farmers he had a secret map found on each of the farmer's property . . ."

Didn't happen.

"Then there's the fun story from the father of my best man at my wedding . . ."

A 4th or 5th hand story with no confirmation. Come on, if you want to attack someone's religion with rumours and hearsay, take it somewhere else.
176 posted on 02/21/2003 8:55:09 PM PST by Grig
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To: Spunky; blam
"Unofficially Chatters gives a 'rough' rundown of the DNA that was obtained and Ainu at 23% was the highest."

Thank you for the post, Blam. That 23% leaves a great deal of "wiggle room" to come up with verifiable truth.

Spunky, I deeply appreciate knowing from someone on spot what happened with regard to the destroyed archealogical site. (I love FR for that.) I was utterly enraged when that happened and still cannot think about it calmly.

We have so many varied "vested interests" resident in diverse groups that claim authority in the matter that the struggle to get at or verify anything other than what was supposed, surmised or dreamt up in the past is almost as impossible as getting into the next galaxy.

Academians who have written books, if proven wrong will loose revenue. Schools at which they have taught will lose prestige. People groups will have to alter their deeply and reverently held belief systems and perhaps give up their tightly clutched benefits or privileges. Scientists would need to be able to admit that their conclusions, calculations could have erred in some way and politicians might need to give up some group manipulation advantages for any headway to be made on this entire subject world-wide.

That is more pride to be excised than is humanly feasible. One has to assume that only a G_d Almighty could achieve it.
I'm willing to watch.
177 posted on 02/21/2003 8:57:56 PM PST by Spirited
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To: C19H28O2
"Joseph Smith's "ideas" were already in circulation when he plagiarized most of the Book of Mormon"

That idea was discredited a long, long time ago.

http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagazines/Ensign/1976.htm/ensign%20september%201976.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC2
178 posted on 02/21/2003 9:00:16 PM PST by Grig
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To: Hodar
Funny how an uneduated farm kid, who is accused of starting a 'cult' has been (or is being) validated by modern science.

You're kidding, right? Validated? The claims made in this article are beyond tenuous. It was written for pure shock value. If there is real, hard, genetic or linguistic evidence of such a connection, let them present it. Explorers and pseudo-scientists have been blathering about the Indians being the "lost tribes of Israel" almost from the time of Columbus. No direct or indirect link has EVER been established.

The closest anyone has come is the genetic link between the mysterious Melungeons of Appalachia and Mediterranean peoples. But there's no indication that they're Jewish--probably Portuguese.
179 posted on 02/21/2003 9:03:26 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: C19H28O2
"We're not directly doomed because Adam transgressed. We're doomed when our inherited sinful nature is knowingly and willfully expressed by our actions."

Then you agree with us on that, wonderful. Sadly it is very common for orthodox christian faiths to teach otherwise.
180 posted on 02/21/2003 9:07:36 PM PST by Grig
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To: P-Marlowe
WELL said! How are you my old friend??
181 posted on 02/21/2003 9:14:05 PM PST by ApesForEvolution (This space for rent (Not accepting bids from the United Nations))
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To: EggsAckley
A quick google search turns up some info that casts serious doubt on the provenance of this artifact:

The Bat Creek Stone

A very interesting read!
182 posted on 02/21/2003 9:14:15 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: Quix
My understanding is that the linguistic confirmations have been fairly extensive.

Speaking as someone who works in the field, "extensive" is hardly the term I'd use to describe the linguistic links. "Absurdly speculative" would probably be better.
183 posted on 02/21/2003 9:20:26 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: P-Marlowe
"If this story of the Cherokee connection to Masada is true, it does not validate Joseph Smith, it repudiates him. "

Bad logic. If the Cherokee claim is true, it does show that the migration claimed in the BoM was possible, and as the BoM claim, not unique either.

The BoM is a very brief record of over 1000 years of history, and even so it records that other groups were in the americas before them, and some groups arrived after as well. The Cherokee claim, if true, doesn't give direct proof of anything in the BoM, but it certainly disproves nothing in the BoM either and harmonizes extreemly well with what is in the BoM.

Other evidences that support the BoM can be found at
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai024.html
184 posted on 02/21/2003 9:21:48 PM PST by Grig
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To: Grig
Mormon isn't a Christian faith. Different Jesus for starters. Both can't be true, and I've studied the Mormon cult at length with an open mind (and a discerning Spirit). Good people but sorely deceived. The add on Book of Mormon contradicts the Old and New Testaments all over the place.. But, no point trying to persuade you. Only the Holy Ghost can do that.
185 posted on 02/21/2003 9:23:24 PM PST by ApesForEvolution (This space for rent (Not accepting bids from the United Nations))
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To: Jim Noble
One wonders if the Cherokee suffer from Tay-Sachs disease....?
186 posted on 02/21/2003 9:32:57 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: ApesForEvolution
"Mormon isn't a Christian faith."

from dictionary.com
Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
- Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
- Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.

The Living Christ
The Testimony of the Apostles
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20april%202000.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0

Mormonism certainly is a Christian religion. It is NOT an orthodox christian religion (we belive that orthodox christianity has strayed from the gospel taught by Christ) but it a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus and derived from Jesus's teachings. Our understanding of what those teachings are etc. are not exactly the same, but that doesn't mean we are not christians.

Even though we disgree with the orthodox faiths on a number of points, we still recognize that their intention is to follow Christ and we hail them as fellow-christians just the same.

"The add on Book of Mormon contradicts the Old and New Testaments all over the place."

LDS theology is consistant. One purpose of the BoM is to contridict FALSE interpretations of the Bible, there is no conflict between the BoM and the Bible from the LDS POV.
187 posted on 02/21/2003 9:39:11 PM PST by Grig
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To: blam
and let's not forget about this guy...


The Pedro Mountains Mummy

188 posted on 02/21/2003 9:47:26 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: Grig
Different Jesus in BoM versus the Holy Scriptures. Both can't be the truth. You can quote lds garbage all you want, but when the rubber hits the road, you are not following the Son of God. Mormon isn't Christian, it's cult.
189 posted on 02/21/2003 9:54:01 PM PST by ApesForEvolution (This space for rent (Not accepting bids from the United Nations/Boycotting German/French Industry))
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To: vannrox
Hey, I'm Jewish!!!! Does this mean I can open a casino?

Mark
190 posted on 02/21/2003 10:17:33 PM PST by MarkL (... but I'm not bitter... NO!!)
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To: Just mythoughts
Do you know anything about the Heavener, OK., Viking Ruinstones?

No, I don't know anything about them. I've been to Spiro Mounds State Park near Heavener, but I don't remember anything about Viking artifacts. Spiro Mounds had displays of American Indian artifacts and a trail past some mounds. I don't remember any claim about Vikings. Can you fill me in?

The Melungeons: Appalachian Mystery
Bill

191 posted on 02/21/2003 10:18:54 PM PST by WFTR
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To: ApesForEvolution
"We're not directly doomed because Adam transgressed. We're doomed when our inherited sinful
nature is knowingly and willfully expressed by our actions."

***Then you agree with us on that, wonderful. Sadly it is very common for orthodox christian faiths to
teach otherwise.***


Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...
..Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that has not sinned after the similtude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that is to come. Romans 5: 12-14.
For by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesuc Christ.
192 posted on 02/21/2003 10:28:01 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Jesus paid it all.)
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To: Antoninus
The closest anyone has come is the genetic link between the mysterious Melungeons of Appalachia and Mediterranean peoples. But there's no indication that they're Jewish--probably Portuguese.

The Melungeons likely have a Portuguese connection, but they also likely have other connections as well. One point that must be remembered is that "Portuguese" is not a description of a homogenous people. The Iberian penninsula was home to many different groups of people at the time that the Portuguese became active in exploration. Another point is that Melungeons have many of the same diseases as Semitic peoples. DNA testing has shown Middle Eastern genes in their background.

The Melungeons: Appalachian Mystery
Bill

193 posted on 02/21/2003 11:03:34 PM PST by WFTR
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To: Grig
The Palmyra sp? New York court records are evidently quite clear on what--3 or 4 different convictions for defrauding farmers?

Walter Martin--I think also a descendant of B Young or J Smith, I forget which--researched such things exhaustively. His research skills and integrity stand as models.

Another famous couple who left the church having had to fact far tooooo much uncomfortable truth to any more pretend there was anything valid to believe also has done extensive research on such things. Wish I could think of their names. Guess I'll have to go to Google when I have the time.

I don't think B Young NOR J Smith have ANY grounds to stand on in terms of integrity. Their abuse of a long list of people is just far too extensive.

I standy by the walking on water story. It was not 5th hand. I talked to the son of the man who saw it happen.


Just the changes in the Book of Mormon alone--the Book they used to deny was ever changed--but went through AT LEAST 5 revisions--just those changes alone are enough to call foul about.
194 posted on 02/21/2003 11:10:47 PM PST by Quix (OTHER TASKS DELAY ME BUT STILL PLANNING TO GET KATHLEEN'S FINAL WARNING EXCERPTS UP)
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To: Antoninus
You must be right. I'm not the expert and it's been many months since I read the stuff. I'll try and look it up again next week.
195 posted on 02/21/2003 11:18:47 PM PST by Quix (OTHER TASKS DELAY ME BUT STILL PLANNING TO GET KATHLEEN'S FINAL WARNING EXCERPTS UP)
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To: blam

196 posted on 02/22/2003 12:19:00 AM PST by Paleo Conservative
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To: Quix
Hello Friend,

My name is Longee Barba. I am an official in the Bank of Masada and here in my country, we have a problem.

It seems that a famous person has died and no heirs have been found from his esteemed lineage leaving us in a quandry as to disposal of his immense fortune.

Your name has been selected, from a large grouping of.................
197 posted on 02/22/2003 4:19:45 AM PST by Elsie (The ONLY hope you have is Jesus!)
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To: Elsie
cute
198 posted on 02/22/2003 5:14:41 AM PST by Quix (OTHER TASKS DELAY ME BUT STILL PLANNING TO GET KATHLEEN'S FINAL WARNING EXCERPTS UP)
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To: Heidi Doody
My, we are sensitive, and my, we are lashing out !
Looks like " victimology " at work.

Well, since you have seen fit to trash my ancestry, and my "defective genes" -

( Gee ! Where did I hear that one before ? Oh, yeah ! When I was a kid, they had this little club in Germany, called the Waffen SS ,which used the same rhetoric as "justification" for the murder of millions. Some of my defective relatives-" Bog Trotters" all- went over to visit them, and to lay down their lives putting them out of business ) -

I can't quite figure out whether you are arrogant, ignorant, or a combination of both.

Whatever.

199 posted on 02/22/2003 5:42:25 AM PST by genefromjersey (In the immortal words of Bubba Clinton : " Ah...ah feel yer pain !")
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To: Grig; drstevej; CARepubGal; P-Marlowe
A TBM arrives.

Let the spin commence.
200 posted on 02/22/2003 5:58:55 AM PST by Wrigley
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