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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: RobFromGa
I have been practicing at the range with a Glock 22 (0.40) and a Glock 21 (0.45). Both are comfortable and I can shoot fairly accurately ......I have been leaning towards the 21 because it is bigger, I am a big guy. What do you Freepers think?

Go with the .45
The .40 is perfectly adequate as long as the modern hollowpoints work. Unfortunately they have a tendency to pack with material from heavy clothing and fail to open. That is when you need the .45.

Try any of the hot 185gr hollowpoints in warm weather, and switch to Federal 230gr Hydroshocks for winter.

So9

101 posted on 02/23/2003 12:09:46 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: Servant of the Nine
thanks, and go Al!
102 posted on 02/23/2003 12:11:46 AM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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To: RobFromGa
I have a safe full....."expensive gun of the month habit"....I'm on the patch now :o)

1st Choice and everyday carry is a 1911A1 in 45ACP. Kimber IMHO is the only company making one that does not have to be tweeked out of the box by a gunsmith. Peek at the Kimber Stainless Pro Carry for that one. My 1911A1 is a custom Clark Meltdown.

2nd Choice of late is the new SIGP239 in 40 Short & Wimpy or .357SIG (I have both barrels and mags so I swap calibers sometimes).

I have a Glock 23/19/30/21/34/35 and like em all. The SIG 220 in 45 ACP is a great duty gun as is the SIG 228 in 9MM. The browning High powers are really nice too. My addiction starting to show yet ?

Key is to get what works for your needs. If a CHL day to day carry then weight and carry concerns are primary in some cases.........Lots of possibilities .

My choice is the 1911A1 as that is what I have carried and used the most and I tend to lean towards something I call muscle memory-matic when it comes to speed , presentation and accuracy in self defense mode.

Hope I helped, ....Stay Safe !

103 posted on 02/23/2003 12:15:34 AM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: resistance
60 yds, 3-4 hits.
104 posted on 02/23/2003 12:16:01 AM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: Squantos
thanks for the input. It is appreciated.
105 posted on 02/23/2003 12:18:20 AM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
But I must say, I would think a .44 would have way too much kick for her.

I have a .44 Mag that I shoot both Mags and .44 specials in.  I also have a .45 wheel gun.  The .44 special is a sweet round.  Less kick than either the .44 Mag or .45.  In fact less kick than my sons .357.  I would say any woman who can handle a .38 can probably handle the .44 special.

All my guns are wheel guns but I mention the .45 being a wheel gun so it won't be confused with the .45 auto round.

I like the .44 special round better than the .44 mag round in most cases.  The 44 Mags are just to powerful in congested areas.  The .44 Mag is certainly effective but can cause collateral damage.  

WarHawk42  

106 posted on 02/23/2003 12:25:03 AM PST by WarHawk42
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To: Travis McGee
I have a .22/.22 Mag revolver and it is accurate enough to pick your spot  anywhere you would be in your house.  I can't say I could shoot the eyes out at a hundred feet but I sure could inside the house.  Loaded with .22 Mag soft points it's not a bad choice if you can hit your target where you want.  It would be best used for head shots.

WarHawk42
107 posted on 02/23/2003 12:29:18 AM PST by WarHawk42
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To: SBprone
Your point?
108 posted on 02/23/2003 12:46:38 AM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: MarkL
Must be nice?
109 posted on 02/23/2003 12:48:57 AM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: fourdeuce82d; imhere; All
Re: Better a .25 on target (up the nose) than a .45 to the toe.

I've carried a .45 all my adult life and can attest to its stopping power. In Vietnam, one round to the body cavity was sudden death, even a round in any of the limbs was a death sentence unless there was prompt medical attention to halt the blood flow and parts loss.

That was with GI ball ammo. I've used +P hollow points on 200-250 lb. wild hogs and they are a tougher breed than old Charlie as I have had to use a second shot on occasion.

Remember, sportsfans, it ain't nothing like the flicks! You don't call "Cut!" and re-shoot if you miss.

So, unless your are dead solid perfect on each and every shot even when coming out of a sound sleep or drunk, anything less than a .40 is foolhardy. A .45 anywhere in the body cavity will put just about any critter down-- Or atleast make 'em stop to recline and think while you get off that second tap to the headbone.

When I came back to the world, I slept with my cocked 'n loaded .45 under my pillow and my K-Bar under my right foot. I have mellowed with the passing ages, the K-Bar is now on the end table.

That's my "toe" story and I'm sticking to it.

110 posted on 02/23/2003 1:32:02 AM PST by sonofatpatcher2 (Love & a .45-- What more could you want, campers? };^)
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To: NonValueAdded
over/under pistol with about a 4 inch barrel.****

Save your money and buy a real gun.

111 posted on 02/23/2003 4:48:57 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: razorback-bert; Squantos; harpseal; Travis McGee; sneakypete; Chapita
I have found a 155mm TOT to be efficent, failing that a 1 kt nude should settled the hash

Re: The 1 kt nude. That must be one ugly unclothed to be that effective

112 posted on 02/23/2003 6:18:22 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: facedown
ping
113 posted on 02/23/2003 6:23:04 AM PST by sistergoldenhair (Don't be a sheep. People hate sheep. They eat sheep.)
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To: Lion Den Dan; razorback-bert; Squantos; harpseal; Travis McGee; sneakypete; Chapita; AAABEST; ...
Elmer Keith quote: "Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it."
114 posted on 02/23/2003 6:24:51 AM PST by SLB
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To: sonofatpatcher2; Squantos
Concur on the .45.

I have carried a 1911A1 in one form or another - old rattletrap Army issue, Combat Commander, stainless Officer's Model - for most of my adult life. Recoil has never been a problem, and I'm a relatively small woman (5'6" and at the age of 47 I wish I still weighed 140!). The straight sides of the 1911 fit my hand better than the rounder grips of a revolver.

I recently picked up a SIG P245 and I like the double action feature. Once I got the bugs worked out of the magazine (heck of a spring - didn't want to accept that last round) it works like a charm.

I also like the .44 Special and if I carried a revolver that would be it. One of our more famous judges, Charles "Two Gun Charlie" Worrill, an ex-Texas Ranger and Industrial League baseball umpire (both high risk occupations), used to preside on the bench with two loaded .44 Bulldogs. He used one for a gavel (with an empty cylinder under the hammer - my dad asked him and the response was along the lines of "Think I'm a derned fool?") If it was good enough for Judge Worrill, it's good enough for me.

115 posted on 02/23/2003 6:38:03 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . of course, he would glare at people and they would surrender. Just that kind of guy.)
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To: SLB
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

A-yep. Of course, there are some folks who spend so much time shooting all sorts of stuff all the time, they can pretty much pick up anything and hit whatever they want within effective range.

I'm working on that myself... !


116 posted on 02/23/2003 6:47:25 AM PST by Joe Brower (http://www.joebrower.com/)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Morning to you AAM! No better way to start the day then a FR pistol thread.

Gotta love the story of "Two Gun Charlie"! The world's a smaller place for not having folks like that anymore.

My interest in CCW has been mostly hypothetical (except for a short stint in DC's war zone where I carried a 2.5" Smith Mod. 19) but it looks like New Mexico is going to pass it this year. I'd better start thinking it over more.

117 posted on 02/23/2003 6:48:36 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: ConservativeLawyer; Squantos
It is very difficult to recommend a caliber/sidearm for a person without talking to that person and observing said person shoot. In general I note the following. The lady I am seeing on a regular basis can handle a .45acp ported 10 shot semi-auto built on the high-power design for ergonomics. She still carries a 9mm stoked with Winchester Silver tip hollow points.

Clearly Squantos' recommendations will not lead anyone astray. The .44spl from charter arms is an excellent self defense piece. The .38spl's are adequate for self defense and to be honest even a .22LR or .25acp has its uses. A .22lr slug through the eye is a much better stopper than a .50 cal S&W through the wall, albeit not as impressive in terms of blast and recoil.

Kimber makes an excellent out of the box .45acp, although it will cost about $750. Geffen makes a good out of the box .45acp for about $350 retail. A $150 trigger job and one has an excellent .45acp for about $500. The lady who partly owns the range I go to carries a Fuscia framed Charles Daily .45acp (10 shot based upon the CZ design). My late wife carried a 4inch bbl .357 magnum revolver in her purse anda 2inch bbl .357 for back up. In short whatever your wife is comfortable with that she can hot her target with is what she should carry. The more comfortable she is with it the more likely she is to shoot. The more likely she is to shoot the more likely she is to become comfortable with other guns and concurrently aware of what is available and what the advantages and disadvantages are with each sidearm.

118 posted on 02/23/2003 6:50:32 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Joe Brower
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

The problem I had with shooting one gun almost exclusively was not that my practial accuracy with other's suffered, it was that the manipulation for things like reloading started to get hardwired. I remember shoving on the triggerguard of my Kimber to drop the mag, since I'd been shooting a Walther P99 alot and thinking "This would be really embarassing under certain circumstances."

119 posted on 02/23/2003 6:57:21 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: SLB
Elmer Keith quote: "Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it."

I like to think I know how to use several guns. I personally have some guns that I really do not like very much so I do not own any of that type. I for one do not like the feel of the Glocks, the new Walther designs, and some of the S&W designs. I could adapt to them if I had to but I really do not desire to do that.

120 posted on 02/23/2003 7:05:49 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
After reading thru this thread, I suspect that no one would think a weeny little 9mm Beretta 92F loaded with Cor-Bon +P 115 gr. JHP's is sufficient. You're all a bunch of size queens. ;)
121 posted on 02/23/2003 7:21:14 AM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
The single gun isn't the only thing.

My son mentioned that he wanted to make sure that he never changed the way he drew a pistol. We use the same holster for all occasions. A Galco Royal Guard "In the Waistband".

I talked to one guy last week and he mentioned that he uses a shoulder holster, an ankle hoster and a differnt style of holster that he uses under a shirt.
122 posted on 02/23/2003 7:39:33 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Travis McGee
It's not for military use so if you take care of the varmint, 2 or 4 legs, with a few shots you won't need to worry about it warming up.

Good question though. I'll ask them if they designed it themselves from scratch (I doubt it) or if they "borrowed" design from an existing design?
123 posted on 02/23/2003 7:46:47 AM PST by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: Shooter 2.5
Excellent point. My favorite saying about shooting is "Practice may not make perfect, but it sure does make permanent."

If we get CCW in New Mexico (it passed the Senate last week), I'm going to need to research the trade offs between concealability and accessability, and concealability and firepower. I'm wondering what I could successfully carry, being that the "Slim" part of my screename is accurate and the Southwest is not always partial to bulky clothing.

124 posted on 02/23/2003 7:47:51 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Super Mak90kid
I'd like to ask your opinion on the 9's if I might. I have a Beretta 92FS and load it with Federal Hydra-Shocks. I have read a couple of post suggesting the 115 grain rounds and noted that I have one box with 124 grain and one box with 135 grain. Is the 115 grain a better choice than these?
Also, can anyone reccomend a website with info on Texas Concealed Carry info.

Thanks-Greg
125 posted on 02/23/2003 7:50:25 AM PST by crude77
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To: crude77; Squantos; Shooter 2.5
Also, can anyone reccomend a website with info on Texas Concealed Carry info.

A this fellow could benefit from your input Ping.

126 posted on 02/23/2003 7:52:39 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Polycarp
Based on this article, a jacketed 9mm sounds like the best bet. Combines good penetration with minimal kick & lots of extra rounds. I have a .357 and a .45, but arguably my best bet would the .22/32 that I've fired thousands of rounds through. I don't have to concentrate much to hit the target with it.

For home defense, I prefer the 12 gauge in the bedroom defense. Wandering around the house at night gives the other guy a shot for free. Some one coming up the stairs to our bedrooms is dangerous - but not as dangerous as I am with a shotgun, clear line of fire, and the resolution to use it!
127 posted on 02/23/2003 7:53:27 AM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: Tijeras_Slim
LOL....Understand that well. Back before I knew better I decided that I had to have an HK P7M13. I had been issued a P9S in 45ACP and thought I needed at least 2 HK's in my paperweight collection aka Gun Safe.

One thing I could never master was the weird squeeze cocking action. Lot's of embarrassing technical pauses in the shoot house per se. Albeit the P9S is an outstanding handgun and shoots very well the P7M13 is now an investment gun.

Stay Safe !!

128 posted on 02/23/2003 7:53:37 AM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: crude77
As to 9mm ammo I highly suggest the cor-bon 115 gr JHP for personal defense use. Peter Pi has his ducks in a row on the little pill.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm

That Texas CHL web site is official.......

Stay Safe !
129 posted on 02/23/2003 7:58:11 AM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: Squantos
I've shot the squeeze cocker, and found it very accurate, but it was during a period of life where financial realities probably saved me from similar "paperweight" acquisition.

I'm in pursuit of the "perfect" three gun battery for bullseye/target shooting right now. Thoreau's phrase "Simplify, simplify..." is looking attractive.

Looks like we might get CCW in New Mexico soon, if so, I'll be in touch to pick you brain.

130 posted on 02/23/2003 8:02:23 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Any word of reciprocity with Tejas in that New Mexico version of the CHL-RKBA rental agreement ?

Stay Safe !!

131 posted on 02/23/2003 8:09:01 AM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: Squantos
Thanks for the input and the website-am checking it out now. I had been one that felt I did not need a license to carry (still feel that way), but have decided I would prefer not to have to convince a Judge.

Greg
132 posted on 02/23/2003 8:09:06 AM PST by crude77
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To: Squantos
Don't have all the details yet, but you know politics here...
133 posted on 02/23/2003 8:12:33 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Polycarp
If you like the Para LDA, be sure to check out Glocks and the HK USP LEM .40 (which comes in two trigger weights, so be sure you know which you are trying.)
134 posted on 02/23/2003 8:25:48 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Tijeras_Slim
CCW in New Mexico?

New Mexico moves up on the list of "move-to" states. I want to escape California, but it didn't seem reasonable to trade one communist country for another.

135 posted on 02/23/2003 8:27:06 AM PST by no-s
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Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: no-s
it didn't seem reasonable to trade one communist country for another.

Well, time will tell. We do have Clinton-crony Bill Richardson for Gov right now, but he cut the top tax rate last week as well. Clearly, he knows that what makes a Gov palatable for national office aspirations and what makes a Dem aparatchik are two different things.

137 posted on 02/23/2003 8:41:15 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: ez
Wow, I was thinking I wanted a revolver in .38 special, but after reading this, I think I'll see what's out there in .40 S&W.

I carry a 38spl Taurus Mdl 85 as backup to a glock 23. It also works when I can't carry the Glock.

I load it with Federal +p 158gr Gold Dots semiwadcutter hollow points with the Nyclad coating. Didn't see this load in the table, but would think it would be closer to the magic 50.

The snubby fills a special niche. In very close quarters, the snubby can be jammed into an adversary's torso, delivering a devastating wound, literally pumping clothing, powder, etc. into a torso. Automatics are not suited for this maneuver, since they could be pushed out of battery.

Visit the range, try em out, carry as much gun as you can.

138 posted on 02/23/2003 8:43:23 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: big ern; Travis McGee
Travis, have you seen that new rifle Kel-tec is coming out in .223. It's the SU-16.

I have the Kel-Tec Sub 2000. Lots of fun in 9mm. Plus it will take high cap magazines. Under $300.

139 posted on 02/23/2003 8:55:51 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
www.packing.org is the bible of the concealed weapons websites.

My son is about your built and we always use that holster for everything. Start with a loose colored t-shirt untucked. As it gets cooler, tuck in the t-shirt and then put on a flat bottomed shirt, again untucked. As it get colder, tuck in the shirt and put on a sweatshirt. When it's cold, take the sweater off and use a winter coat. The coat can't have the type of liner that hangs down without stitching. If that happens, you're grabbing the coat up and leaving the liner. If possible, you could sweep the unzipped coat open from the front.

When you draw, use the three fingers without the index finger to lift the material upward and use the thumb to jam behind the pistol. Keep a loose hold on the pistol as you draw because you could be grabbing material. As you come up, enclose the fingers tighter. When the two hands slam together, flip the safety off, not before for a tight hold. Put the trigger finger in the guard as you center on the target and not before. The tips of your weak hand fingers should be on your strong hand knuckles[common mistake for small handed people] If you're using a 1911, the strong hand thumb should be on the safety[NOT UNDER IT].
140 posted on 02/23/2003 9:10:47 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: TC Rider
The Charter Arms Charter 2000 Undercover is rated a best buy at Gun Tests, and at just $259 is in my price range. The hard part in NYS is being able to get your pistol permit in the first place. So far I am content to defend w my Mossberg 500 with pistol grip.

I'll have to check out that +p ammo.

141 posted on 02/23/2003 9:12:08 AM PST by ez (WHERE'S THE POLLING DATA ON THE ESTRADA FILIBUSTER???)
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To: humblegunner; dix
Bump 'cause you guys need educatin'!!!!


Stay safe; stay armed.


142 posted on 02/23/2003 9:16:49 AM PST by Eaker (64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday. Somehow, it didn't make the news.)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
If she has small hands... Browing Hi power for an autoloader and a S&W 442 38 special loaded with +P hollow points for carry and regular pressure lead bullets for practice
143 posted on 02/23/2003 9:17:54 AM PST by joesnuffy
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To: Shooter 2.5
Thanks for the tips. I'll be in touch as the status of NM CCW changes.
144 posted on 02/23/2003 9:25:48 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Voice in your head
LOL! But then I have to convince her to wear that outfit as well to complete the package!
145 posted on 02/23/2003 9:26:31 AM PST by ConservativeLawyer (What would the neighbors think?)
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To: NonValueAdded
I have a derringer manufactured by American Derringer which fires 4-10/.45 Long rounds. It has a hell of a kick.
146 posted on 02/23/2003 9:37:45 AM PST by Movemout
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To: WarHawk42
.22 mag will certainly penetrate a skull from any angle! A SEAL officer was assassinated in El Salvador in the 80s with a .22 mag revolver. (Historical footnote.)
147 posted on 02/23/2003 9:46:21 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: TC Rider; big ern
Doesn't KelTec do a VERY smart thing and build guns around existing (available!) magazines, like the S&W model 59 double stack 9mm mags?
148 posted on 02/23/2003 9:49:53 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Doesn't KelTec do a VERY smart thing and build guns around existing (available!) magazines, like the S&W model 59 double stack 9mm mags?

heh heh, yes they do.

The Sub 2000 can be ordered with a reciever for S&W, Glock or Beretta. The 9mm pistol takes a S&W.

149 posted on 02/23/2003 10:01:11 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: ConservativeLawyer; .38sw
What would you recommend for caliber/firearm for concealed carry for a woman?
I need to do a little shopping for the wife.

I started my son, when he was 5 feet tall and weighed 95 pounds with a chopped 45 automatic. he found the 'soft' recoil of it easier to handle than a .38 revolver or even a .32 auto.

I'm PINGing .38 SW
She has moved from an occasional shooter to a bit 45 fan in the last year or so.

So9

150 posted on 02/23/2003 10:11:31 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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