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Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.

TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I like the model of the Colt but I have to say one thing about those rubber grips. I had a set like that on my Springfield Ultra-Compact and after carrying the thing for a couple of hours against my skin on a hot day, I was having some problems with my skin. The checkering was sawing away at my side. After I took the grips off, I noticed a lot of corrosion. I replaced the grips with some smooth "ivory" grips and stopped the problem of my side and the salt accumulation.
161 posted on 02/23/2003 12:41:45 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Well, I've had a CCW for years, even got one in Fulton County where it's not easy to get. Cobb County was much more agreeable, of course by the time I moved there I'd carried one for twenty years without incident (thank God!). Of course you KNOW I'd recommend a .45 to just about anybody - at least to try. And at least you can always find parts for a 1911A1!

Gotta love the story of "Two Gun Charlie"! The world's a smaller place for not having folks like that anymore.

He was something else. I wish there was a photo of him somewhere on the net, this is a guy who could freeze you with a glance. He was BIG - 6'3, probably 250, solid muscle even late in life when I knew him. His head had straight sides and went right down into his neck, if you know what I mean, and his eyes were those cold steel Clint Eastwood grey eyes. There was never any nonsense in his courtroom, and every lawyer in the vicinity had a healthy respect for him. He once ordered the National Labor Relations Board not to set foot in Early County, and the NLRB sent a young lawyer down to ask him what gives. He invited the nice young man into his office, fixed him a Co-Cola, and said, "Now what can I do for you young man?" The lawyer said, "My superiors have sent me to ask you, very respectfully of course, by what authority a Georgia superior court judge can ban a federal agency from a county?" Worrill replied, "Tell your superiors to violate that order, just a little, and we'll see by whose authority." The young man kind of stammered, and said, "I think I am in the wrong place," thanked the judge for the Co-Cola, and left. - this true story was told by one of his former law clerks at his memorial service.

Here's a true story from my dad: he and a bunch of guys went dove hunting with Judge Worrill, and as they walked through a thicket there was a thrashing noise from a little way off, and there was a wild pig. He pawed and snorted, and everybody went up the trees but the judge. The pig charged, and he just stood there while everybody was yelling for him to run. He clubbed his dove gun, smacked the boar up side the head and dropped it in its tracks, then put the muzzle to the pig's head and killed it. Everybody came down out of the trees. The judge was VERY upset - because he cracked the curly walnut stock on his dove gun!

162 posted on 02/23/2003 12:45:58 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . dad says this proves the rule: "Never share a foxhole with anybody braver than you.")
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Thanks, I'll look at the Glock 30 as well.

I appreciate all the tips, this is a big decision for me. I never fired a handgun until 3-4 months ago when I decided that I should know how at the age of 40.
163 posted on 02/23/2003 1:07:48 PM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Time to upgrade! I have been under the illusion of being adequately armed. Ignorance can be deadly.
164 posted on 02/23/2003 1:24:52 PM PST by gitmo ("The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain." GWB)
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To: Servant of the Nine
Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration. However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance. Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion.

I think that when one considers stopping power of a handgun round it is best to assume worst case scenario (your hollow point does not expand 40% of the time). I do not think that all Julian Hatcher's information is out of date. The point of this article is that bullet weights over 179 grain that are .40 caliber or larger will penetrate more tissue and cause damage thereby hopefully defeating your opponent more effectively than smaller caliber speedy rounds. Some of the information may be incorrect but there are things we can learn from Hatcher's work.

165 posted on 02/23/2003 1:30:31 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Travis McGee
There aren't too many .44 Specials around. I load my .44 magnum with .44 specials.
166 posted on 02/23/2003 1:32:58 PM PST by Mini-14
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To: AnAmericanMother
Re: ...If it was good enough for Judge Worrill, it's good enough for me.

Couldn't agree more, Mom! An old cop friend of mine carried a .44 Special 2-inch Smith as a backup in an ankle holster (He was a large fellow and pants were full cut in those days) years ago in the Houston area. He walked into a robbery at his cleaners where the perps got the drop on him. When Jim saw the two hoods were going to snuff him and the owner, he went for broke.

He took five hits from their two pistols, two 9 mils and three .38s in his body cavity. He returned two rounds. Both were deadly accurate, one through the heart of one bad guy and the other lost the right side of his head. Jim survived and finished out his 20 to retire to fish for anything that swam and play stud poker until a heart attack took him at 70 five years ago.

Jim was a Christian gentleman, a stud player without peer and a crack shot who only pulled his piece to serve and protect his fellow citizens. I miss him every day.

167 posted on 02/23/2003 1:36:43 PM PST by sonofatpatcher2 (Love & a .45-- What more could you want, campers? };^)
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To: wardaddy
"My first .357 was a 1972 or so S/W Model 28...huge heavy sucker. I put Pachmeyers on it when they first came and Parkerized it as well. I had finger gripped Zebra wood handles first....anybody remember those?"

The striped ones were probably Jay Scott grips, right?

168 posted on 02/23/2003 1:37:20 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird; 2nd_Amendment_Defender

Glock 23 and 27 bump...

77 posted on 02/22/2003 11:48 PM MST by 69ConvertibleFirebird

Bump G23 ( 14 rounds) G27 ( 10 rounds)

I teach NRA instructors how to teach Personal Protection and Pistol.

Most important selection of a carry handgun is "Functional Reliability".

If you are looking for a cartridge after you have selected a "Functionally Reliable" handgun.

See here MagSafe or MagSafe Inc


chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

169 posted on 02/23/2003 2:08:26 PM PST by Uri’el-2012
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To: ez; glock rocks
after reading this, I think I'll see what's out there in .40 S&W.

My Glock 23 is .40 S&W. Everyone likes shooting it. Really fits most hands well unless your hand is very large. Good control, acceptable recoil, and highly reliable. Works well for women too. The chart has it about right. It has the stopping power for most situations but isn't overpowered or oversized. A very good tradeoff in features for ordinary pistol owners.
170 posted on 02/23/2003 2:52:14 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: spodefly
...a weeny little 9mm Beretta 92F loaded with Cor-Bon +P 115 gr. JHP's is sufficient...

Sufficient for civilian use, I think. Card-carrying Gun Nuts seem to look down on the 9mm but there's nothing wrong with them. Very practical for a lot of people. Far better than any of the smaller stuff with a hot load in them. I'd still like to get a 9mm in Ruger or Beretta.
171 posted on 02/23/2003 3:12:26 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: Stopislamnow
love my Kahr Arms .40. P9 Covert...only problem I have with it is the normal clip leaves my pinky below the grips.

I wanted one very much. But this is what stopped me even though my hands aren't that big. Still, Kahr is well worth a look depending on your tastes and hand size.
172 posted on 02/23/2003 3:20:15 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I personally don't like the Para Ordnance. My brother owns a .45 Para Ordnance handgun and I'm not impressed. It jams every now and again because the magazines are not very good quality.

I found that to be true when I used after-market magazines. Never had a problem with Para mags though.

173 posted on 02/23/2003 3:25:57 PM PST by Euro-American Scum
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To: Atchafalaya
The point is, don't put too much faith in a handgun. Your brain is your best defense and your most lethal weapon. A big club isn't so bad either.
174 posted on 02/23/2003 5:22:28 PM PST by SBprone
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To: XeniaSt
From the magsafe web site that you posted the link to: " costs a whopping retail of $23.88 per packet of six rounds. "

Don't think I can afford $4/bullet even if they are a LOT better.

175 posted on 02/23/2003 5:25:16 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: Rockpile
If I recall the model 28 was originally made for the California Highway Patrol. Big N frame without the fancy polish of other Smiths. I thought they looked cheap back when they were made but now I think they're cool. Wish I had one!
176 posted on 02/23/2003 5:38:23 PM PST by SBprone
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To: Rockpile
Got me?????...30 years ago more or less
177 posted on 02/23/2003 6:01:10 PM PST by wardaddy (The calm before the storm is in the air.....does anyone else feel it?)
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To: KaiserofKrunch
The best round out of the .357 is the 125Gr JHP. I don't see it listed.

kAcknor Sez:

It's one of the best, that's for sure. I mis-typed in my post. The house gun is loaded with .38 special 110 gr SJHP over 4.4 grains of Bullseye. The recoil is far better for the wife, and both of us can get a second round off a lot faster.

The last thing I need is a round entering a neighbors house. Even the 12 gause has birdshot loaded for the first two shells. At 15 feet, the plastic wadding is going to do damage!! ;)

"bImejDI' reH betleHlIj yItlhap" (Never leave home without your bat'telh.)

Basic HTML help for new FR posters. <Ver 1.4>

178 posted on 02/23/2003 6:15:39 PM PST by kAcknor
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I use a special Proprietary load in my 9MM – it weighs 52 grains. It is a 9MM Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) with the lead melted out. The core is then replaced with birdshot bonded in epoxy. The muzzle velocity is in excess of 2100 FPS. It is an excellent load – accurate – easy to control – and very deadly at the ranges (7 to 21 feet) that most handgun battles occur.
179 posted on 02/23/2003 6:27:36 PM PST by fiftycal (9MM On Steroids)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
From the magsafe web site that you posted the link to: " costs a whopping retail of $23.88 per packet of six rounds. "
Don't think I can afford $4/bullet even if they are a LOT better.

175 posted on 02/23/2003 6:25 PM MST by 69ConvertibleFirebird

I draw your attention to MagSafe for it's safety and effectiveness.

They can be purchased for less at gun shows and online at places like cheaper than dirt

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

180 posted on 02/23/2003 7:12:26 PM PST by Uri’el-2012
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