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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: sneakypete
Get a five shot .44 special revolver, you won't be sorry!

What brand/manufacturer? Also, what's recommended for a not too expensive .22 for practice?

251 posted on 02/26/2003 8:12:00 AM PST by 1Old Pro
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To: Polycarp
the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.

This can't be repeated too often. It's the reason my normal daily carry piece is a 3inch 5-shot 44 Special with either 200gr WW Silvertip hollow-points,or handloads with wadcutters. The ONLY place I disagree with the quoted study is that a large diameter bullet at even moderate velocity can penetrate deep enough and still have enough "mass" to break a spine,ending the assault on you. This is just nitpicking,though. The head is a MUCH easier target to hit than the spine.

BTW,don't waste your time trying to give me grief about the handloads because some rent-a-cop preaches against them. I've heard and read all the arguements,and concluded I know more than he does. If you don't like that,tell it to somebody who cares,and be happy following his advise. I'm not trying to sell you any books or videos,and I don't care.

252 posted on 02/26/2003 8:12:58 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: sneakypete
Seems I recall from the past Strasboug goat tests(staked goats were shot in the lungs with various handgun loads and time to fall were measured. Lots of dead goats-PETA loved this test)that the fastest, hence best load tested was a 125 gr. JHP out of a .357 mag, velocity unknown. It stopped better than any 44 mag or 45 ACP load tested. In contrast, the 38 spl. 158 gr lead round nose frequently carried in the past by many police departments and still carried by those who are politically correct, only bothered the goat slightly and he went back to grazing for quite a while.
253 posted on 02/26/2003 8:39:37 AM PST by nomorecameljocks
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To: 1Old Pro
What brand/manufacturer?

Mine is a hammerless Rossi that is DAO,and it's not made anymore. Taurus bought out Rossi,and discontinued the Rossi in favor of their own heavier and slightly larger version. Seems like the prices have doubled since then,too. I bought mine for $219 new,retail in stainless steel. It's also one of the most accurate handguns I've ever owned,and I haven't touched it. It was that way right out of the box. It's not for sale at any price.

Also, what's recommended for a not too expensive .22 for practice?

If it were me,I would get a Taurus 22LR revolver,and the matching Taurus in 44 Special. Taurus makes the 22 in more than one frame size,so make sure you get one with the same size frame and barrell length as the 44 Special you want.

254 posted on 02/26/2003 10:56:58 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: nomorecameljocks
Seems I recall from the past Strasboug goat tests(staked goats were shot in the lungs with various handgun loads and time to fall were measured. Lots of dead goats-PETA loved this test)that the fastest, hence best load tested was a 125 gr. JHP out of a .357 mag, velocity unknown. It stopped better than any 44 mag or 45 ACP load tested.

Yeah,but enemy soldiers and violent felons are people full of adreneline,not grazing goats. Give me big and slow every time over fast and small for self-defense.

BTW,factory 44Mag loads are lousy self-defense loads,just like the 158gr factory 357 Mag loads are lousy self-defense loads. The reason for this is they WILL penetrate completely,expending a LOT of their energy in the thin air behind your attacker. Better a big moderate round that stops a inch from exit.

255 posted on 02/26/2003 11:07:43 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Atchafalaya
"Anyone have any experience with a CZ 75 or similar CZ models?"

Yup. I like mine alot. I've had a CZ 75BD 9mm for about 6 months. So far I have about 750 rounds through it with no malfunctions. Most of the ammo has been CCI Blazer target rounds, but GeorgiaArms JHP's have fed just as well. The CZ seems fo be far more accurate than its owner and, for about $340.00, it was a good deal (IMO)for a full-size, all metal gun.

As far as concealability, take a look at the CZ 75B Compact, PCR, or P-01 - all smaller and lighter than the full size, but basically the same platform.

256 posted on 02/26/2003 11:40:17 AM PST by AngryJawa (Aw, fer cryin' out loud!)
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To: sneakypete
It's the original user friendly point and click interface.
257 posted on 02/26/2003 4:03:36 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: sneakypete
"..... Better a big moderate round that stops a inch from exit."

Or better still ---- a huge round, that falls to the floor immediatly after leaving a huge gapping permanent exit wound....

This permits profuse bleeding from both entry and exit wound...

Never give a mark a break..
Semper Fi

258 posted on 02/26/2003 7:36:58 PM PST by river rat (Help save the planet ...... Work toward the extinction of Jihadists....ARM THYSELF)
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To: Travis McGee
OK, we picked it up tonite.

Right out of the box, we fed it 60 rounds of those 200 grain factory Silvertip ammo.

Mrs. Lurker fired 50 of them, your humble correspondent fired 10.

Being a brand new firearm, the trigger was a bit stiff for both of our taste, but the weapon functioned flawlessly. Every round went 'boom' every time we dropped the hammer.

The factory port job was more than satisfactory IMO. Follow up shots were quick, considering that the springs were still a bit stiff. A few hundred rounds should smooth the action out very nicely IMO. The cylinder break works easily as well.

The weapon ejects spent rounds without undue effort.

Here's an interjected comment from Mrs. Lurker: "It's so light, yet it hardly kicks at all! Firing single action it's easy to put my shots in the middle of the target at 30 feet. "

End of comments from Mrs. Lurker...

Keep in mind that this thing has a 2" barrel and she's shooting factory loads through a brand new gun.

The next hundred rounds we put through it were some handloads I made today. 240 gr. JHPs with over about 5.6 grains of Bullseye. According to my books, they should be moving about 800 fps or so, perhaps a bit less.(I gotta get a chronograph...)

I managed to put 4 out of 5 rounds through the head of a standard police silhoutte target at 30 feet in about 5 seconds firing DA. The one loose round hit a couple of inches low, but I'm certain that was the fault of the shooter, and not the weapon or the ammunition.

These heavier loads had a bit more 'bark' to them, but the weapon still functioned flawlessly for both me and Mrs. L. We both thought that our groups tightened up just a bit, but that could just be because we had some time to get used to this particular weapon.

Did I mention how light this thing is? According to Taurus, it's less than 20 ounces unloaded.

Let me get to the finish, lest I be called a poor gun reviewer. The matte blued titanium finish is even overall, and there are no sharp edges or evidence of unfinished machine work anywhere that I can see. After a thorough cleaning, no evidence of poor workmanship is evident to my eye. There are no obvious tool marks anywhere.

The molded rubber grips supplied by the folks at Taurus were comfortable for both my hands (somewhat small) and my wifes hands (somewhat large). They aren't Hogues, but they are definetely adequate for a titanium large bore revolver considering what we paid for it. (I'll tell you the purchase price when I'm done here.)

This pistol has been sitting in our local gun dealers display case for about a year or so, and we figure that more than a few folks dry fired it before moving on to something else, so maybe the springs had been worked in just a bit.

This revolver comes from the factory with some kind of 'safety lock' which uses a cheesy littly plastic key to 'lock' the firing mechanism by means of a small device milled into the hammer somehow. I'll let you know how this holds up once we hit the 5,000 round mark...LOL.

Overall, we would both recommend the purchase of one of these revolvers if one could find one in the now discontinued matte blue finish. Both Mrs. L and I think that the bright blue finish looks like something a pimp might fancy, but don't let that stop you if that's all you can find.

What I will most likely do is work up a fairly 'mild' load using the 210 grain JSP or the 200 grain JHP with either Bullseye or Unique powders. I figure if I can get either of these bullets moving at velocities over 850 fps they should perform very well.

But, you didn't ask about 44 Spl loads, you just asked about this particular sidearm.

The bottom line is, I like it. It seems to be made well, and did I mention that it's small and it's really light? You could carry this thing all day long and not even know you had it, at least until you needed it anyway.

I can't wait to shop for some leather. This thing will positively disappear on a person.

That's it for now, but if you have the chance, buy one. Oh, I almost forgot to mention the purchase price. It was $409.00 US. Not bad IMO.

Regards,

L

259 posted on 02/26/2003 10:50:58 PM PST by Lurker (When I want your opinion, I'll beat it out of you.)
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To: river rat
Yep, let 'em bleed both ways.
260 posted on 02/26/2003 11:17:00 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Lurker; ConservativeLawyer; sneakypete; harpseal; Squantos; wardaddy
Sounds great! I think 20 oz is less than my Charter Arms .38! That's a lot of man stopper for 409 bucks too, and one you don't have to think about much: just pull it out and pull the trigger.

If five rounds that are the equal of a .45 ACP won't do the job in normal "social situations", then you have a VERY big problem on your hands, and probably should have brought your shotgun or S.U.R.!

261 posted on 02/26/2003 11:23:46 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Lurker
Be sure you carry a speedloader or two of extra ammunition for your .44 Special Revolver. I always carry with an extra magazine even though my .40 S&W handgun already has 12 rounds in it. I think you would regret it the rest of your life if you could not save a loved one because you shot up all your ammunition. Who knows what situation you might run into. Multiple armed thugs are a possiblity though not likely at all. Better to carry it and not need it than need it and not have it!
262 posted on 02/26/2003 11:38:09 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Lurker; Travis McGee
Good choice Lurker..... I have a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug in .44 special and the S&W 696 and 296 and shoot .44 specials in my .44 magnum Ruger Blackhawks and Vaqueros. My favorite and most accurate load for my Bulldog is the 200 grain Blazer CCI, Gold Dot Hollow point .

Glad Mrs Lurker has no problems with it. Is this to be "her" pistola ? IMHO and experience .44 special is an excellant self defense round.

Stay Safe !

263 posted on 02/26/2003 11:51:26 PM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Multiple armed thugs are a possiblity though not likely at all.

I had 6 attackers waiting for me outside a Denver restaurant one night. I had a earlier run in with their leader over being nasty to a waitress,and he seemed mad over having to leave her a 20 buck tip when he left. Anyhow,there were 6 of them waiting for me,and all I had was my 5 shot 44 Charter Arms "Bulldog" in my pocket with Valmet bullets that were supposed to explode. Anyhow,I put my back to a brick wall,smiled at them,and told them I had a 5 shot revolver in my pocket,and my plan was to gut shoot the first 5,and beat the last guy to death with the revolver. I then sat down and told them to make up their minds who the first 5 to come at me would be,and to take their time because I wasn't in any hurry. They talked it over for a few minutes,and the general conclusion seemed to be their could hear their mamas calling,so they took off.

BTW,I never once thought I would be able to gut shoot 5 of them. One for sure,maybe 2,but then the others would be hauling ass so fast it would scare you. People don't come at you in packs because they are brave. I've never carried a spare magazine or speed loader as a civilian,and probably never will.

264 posted on 02/27/2003 12:11:22 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: Lurker
BTW here is the spare ammo carrier I use for my Bulldog's spare .44 ammo...........IMO It is fast, compact, and not as bulky as a speed loader.

http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/2X2X2.jpg

Stay Safe !
265 posted on 02/27/2003 12:47:57 AM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Squantos
Is the Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog a good gun? Does it have any problems? Is it accurate? They are priced very well and I may purchase one in the future. I just wanted your opinion.
266 posted on 02/27/2003 1:34:55 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: sneakypete
I've never carried a spare magazine or speed loader as a civilian, and probably never will.

I know that I will probably never use 22 rounds of .40 S&W ammunition. I most likely will never even pull my gun in self defense. It's not uncomfortable to me to carry a spare 10 round magazine so I do it. It's always best to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

267 posted on 02/27/2003 1:53:33 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
It's always best to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

It surely doesn't hurt anything.

268 posted on 02/27/2003 4:28:02 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: Travis McGee; Lurker
Taurus also is advertising their new .45acp revolver and it is a honey. I have had excellent luck with every Taurus revolver I have purchased. The late Mrs. Harpseal favored Taurus .357 magnums with Remmington hollowpoints as her load of choice.
269 posted on 02/27/2003 5:03:15 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Is the Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog a good gun? Does it have any problems? Is it accurate? They are priced very well and I may purchase one in the future. I just wanted your opinion.

yes it is an excellent gun. The CEO/owner of charter arms is quite clear that his guns do not have triggers that are as good as S&W's but on this particular gun and on the undercover .38spl the ones I have seen have been excellent.

270 posted on 02/27/2003 5:06:04 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: sneakypete
Words of wisdom! Great story. I agree with you, if five won't solve your problems, the odds of a speed reload solving them are VERY low.
271 posted on 02/27/2003 8:58:16 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Squantos
Looks a darn sight nicer too! Classy rig.
272 posted on 02/27/2003 8:59:34 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: harpseal
What is the advantage of a .45 ACP revolver over .44 special? Just ammo commonality for 1911 fans?
273 posted on 02/27/2003 9:01:28 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Polycarp
Although it is barely mentioned in the artice, I AM impressed with the fact that it mentioned something that has been known to the U.S. military for some fifty years, and studied in gross detail and with amazingly high subject numbers. But you seldom hear this in the hyperbola of "wound ballistics" debates. That 'something' is the simple realization that human beings do not handle firearms with the same proficiency under stress as they do on the gun range. In fact, the difference is astronomical. What the military, in particular, the U.S. Army discovered was that people who can effectively aim and shoot a handgun in real combat are exceedingly rare, and those that hit their targets are probably just lucky. Their marksman skills have little to do with it. Only long guns seem to compensate enough for the stresses of a firefight to allow reliable hits with small arms. Even conditioning doesn't seem to help much, save for the most ridiculous cases of ammunition expenditure in training. This is precisely why U.S. Navy SEALS expend so much ammunition in live fire training. It has little to do with actual marksmanship, and everything to do with reflexive conditioning. This training approach was a direct result of knowledge of past firefights. The short of the story is, if you wanna live, don't use a handgun AT ALL. Better have a long gun. Indeed, fragmentation weapons take it one step further, greatly enhancing the odds of incapacitation under mortal stress. But for police, carrying long guns routinely should be seriously considered.
274 posted on 02/27/2003 9:37:56 PM PST by boltCutter
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To: Travis McGee
.45 ACP ammuntion for one is cheaper than .44 Special because it is more available. I can get decent .45 ACP target ammunition for about $10 per 50 rounds. Good .45 ACP hollowpoints cost me about $23 per 50.
275 posted on 02/28/2003 3:21:16 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: boltCutter
The short of the story is, if you wanna live, don't use a handgun AT ALL. Better have a long gun.

The reason most don't hit with a handgun is under stress most don't look at their handgun sights. They just pull the gun, aim in a general direction, and fire. Spray the area with bullets and you'll hit your target right? WRONG!

I dry fire train several times a week with a handgun and one of my biggest habits is to line up my sights on my target before pulling the trigger. I know if I continually condition this into my head during stress I will do it.

If one wants to be effective with a handgun they need to train like this. If you don't line your sights up on your target, you will not hit your target. Obviously there are exceptions for very close quarters when you can't get your handgun out in time to aim. Different techniques should be used in these scenarios.

How can one carry a long gun into public? If you want to armed in public, a good concealable semi-automatic handgun is your best choice for a defensive weapon. Good handguns are effective weapons if you frequently train correctly and know how to use one.

276 posted on 02/28/2003 3:39:16 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Travis McGee
The advantages of .45acp over .44 spl are two as I see it. First practice ammunition is a whole lot more common and as a result less expensive. Second the ammunition commonality with the model 1911-A1's means that if you are with someone with such a firearm you could in a desperate situation share ammunition. The second is an admittedly minor consideration but the first is often a big consideration. I have heard that Charter is going to come out with a version of their bulldog and bulldog pug in .45acp.

Their goal is to tap the market for the less expensive .45acp ammunition.

277 posted on 02/28/2003 5:39:45 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: boltCutter; harpseal; sneakypete; river rat
Most of the VN era real deal SEALs I knew in the 80s agreed with you. Most thought that pistols were pretty useless in combat except for "the final bullet" to avoid capture (that's a joke, no seals surrendered or were captured in VN) or with suppressors to kill dogs (hush puppies).

As I recall, most said "I'd take two more thirty round magazines of 5.56 over a pistol any day. If you're down to a pistol against people with rifles, you are SCREWED.

Everything weighs somethinng, and a pistol is big chunk of iron to haul into battle, compared to the 60 rounds of M-16 ammo it kicks off your web belt. That's just what I was always told, I was never in combat.

278 posted on 02/28/2003 1:46:20 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Makes perfect sense. Then you also have ammo commonality between your big 1911 etc and your backup belly gun.
279 posted on 02/28/2003 1:47:25 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Squantos
bttt
280 posted on 02/28/2003 1:48:55 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
The rule of thumb was more ammunition rather than a handgun at all times. However, there were exceptions when one would have to carry a handgun because one expected one's hands to be otherwise occupied or as a back up when carrying M79 and a radio etc or when going after someone who was POW bait usually aircrew and one was probably going to be on the stretcher detail.

There also were those occaisions when one was sleeping in a supposedly secure area that the pistol was essential for the sapper inside the wire. Also there were occaisions when one would have to go exploring in a tunnel and then a handgun was all that one could take.

However, the big problem is that a long gun is just not socially acceptable to take arround with one in public in most cities these days.
281 posted on 02/28/2003 2:15:54 PM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Travis McGee
I see this thread is still alive after a week .... gotta love gun threads.

Despite all the good advice about handguns that start with a 4, I am still convinced that a weeny little 92F with CorBon +P 115gr. JHP's is a viable choice. The .44 wheelgun does look easier to conceal though.
282 posted on 02/28/2003 2:32:04 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: harpseal
However, the big problem is that a long gun is just not socially acceptable to take arround with one in public in most cities these days.

A few Islamikazis in the kindergartens and night clubs and that may chnge over night.

283 posted on 02/28/2003 2:51:42 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: spodefly
I don't see a long line of volunteer scoffers lining up to be 9mm test subjects.

And I sure do love these gun threads!

284 posted on 02/28/2003 2:53:07 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
A few Islamikazis in the kindergartens and night clubs and that may chnge over night.

The most likely response will be for the gun grabboids to try to ban more guns from Americans.

285 posted on 02/28/2003 2:56:07 PM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
If he takes your first shot, no matter the rating (.22's excepted), and you survive his first shot, you are likely to "win". Your second should be a kill (if you need it)!


286 posted on 02/28/2003 3:15:34 PM PST by lawdude
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To: spodefly
I am still convinced that a weeny little 92F with CorBon +P 115 grain JHP's is a viable choice.

Any functional handgun is better than no gun at all. Keep in mind that your hollowpoints are only going to expand 60% of 70% of the time. Why hit them with two or three rounds when one .45 ACP or .40 S&W round will do the job? Keep in mind also everytime your discharge your gun in self-defense you may have a possible lawsuit on your hands if your rounds miss and hit an innocent bystander. My thoughts why I would not use a 9 millimeter for concealed carry.

287 posted on 02/28/2003 3:21:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Travis McGee
Everything weighs somethinng, and a pistol is big chunk of iron to haul into battle, compared to the 60 rounds of M-16 ammo it kicks off your web belt.

True,but the pistol represents a spare weapon in case yours breaks or takes a hit that makes it inoperatable. Everybody has their own idea about what's best,but I carried a 4 inch model 10 S&W loaded with tracers in my left shirt pocket,over my heart. The butt was all that stuck out,and I had a lanyard cord tied to that that went around my neck. I even had cause to use it once to suppress fire as I hauled butt away from a ambush site with what I thought was a malfunctioning M-16. I discovered later that the only thing wrong with the M-16 was that I must have tried to load a mag in it backwards or upside down. All I knew at that time was that the click I heard when I dropped the hammer on a empty chamber was the loudest noise I had ever heard in my life,and I needed to get the hell out of Dodge right NOW. I was the only one left on the ambush site where we ambushed a couple of companies of NVA,and I had been providing covering fire so everybody else could retreat once the NVA started to get their stuff together and return fire. NOT the right time to set down and field strip your weapon,or even look to see if the magazine you jammed up there at about 3,000 mph was actually still in the rifle. Nope,it was clearly time to panic.

288 posted on 02/28/2003 3:35:50 PM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
The reason most don't hit with a handgun is under stress most don't look at their handgun sights.

HorseHillary! If you are in a fire fight and the situation is desperate enough you are using a handgun,you had damn sure better be able to point-shoot it. People who screw around with sight alignment end up getting killed. Using your sights is ok if you are behind a barricade or in a similar situation,but face to face with a armed bad guy out in the open,you need to point shoot.

289 posted on 02/28/2003 3:40:21 PM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: harpseal
The advantages of .45acp over .44 spl are two as I see it. First practice ammunition is a whole lot more common and as a result less expensive.

Maybe,but anybody who is serious about shooting needs to reload,and not all autoloaders feed wadcutters real well. This isn't a problem with a revolver,and a wadcutter is a MUCH more effective bullet than the RN acp load. Yeah,I know about hollowpoints,but my theory is start with a big enough bullet,and then put it where you want it.

290 posted on 02/28/2003 3:45:10 PM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: Travis McGee
Your comments are correct, in my opinion.

If you're going to a fist fight or knife fight -- the pistol is an ideal weapon..
(Remember rule 1- NEVER give the enemy an even break.. Do NOT "fight fair", fight to win)

If you're anticipating a real fire fight with armed men, a Cobra Chopper or Puff the Magic Dragon was the preferred weapon.......

If YOU have to carry everything yourself --- leave the pistol behind and carry more food for your rifle and pack grenades... If you're the type to commit suicide - your knife or your last grenade works nicely....or simply stand up!

If you're walking with 'yards ----- give them the bulky/heavy shit and pack your side arm (if it makes you sleep better)--- along with your weapon....

For some unclear reason --- prisoners always seemed to be more intimidated by a pistol in the ear during questioning.
Other than that - they didn't seem worth the carry.

Note -- Our M60 was manned by a kid that couldn't have weighed more than 135/145lbs... and about 5'7''.
Yet - he somehow managed to carry his weapon, lots of onboard ammo, his knife, a few grenades and a side arm..
He was 20' tall in a fire fight ---- but we nearly lost him every wet crossing..... he sank like a stone!
He constantly bitched about his feet or legs hurting....I wonder why?

Semper Fi

291 posted on 02/28/2003 3:49:22 PM PST by river rat (Help save the planet ...... Work toward the extinction of Jihadists....ARM THYSELF)
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To: harpseal
A few Islamikazis in the kindergartens and night clubs and that may chnge over night.

The most likely response will be for the gun grabboids to try to ban more guns from Americans.

At some point folks are just going to quit working so hard to draw distinctions between our enemies foreign and domestic.

292 posted on 02/28/2003 4:06:55 PM PST by meadsjn
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
All you need is a good 1911A1 .45ACP such as a Springfield milspec. that is not very tight and can shoot 1000 rounds without ever having a burp or hickup. A good heavy 230gr bullet moving @900 fps with 6 quick follow up rounds ready to go if you panick and miss and the fool doesn't run away.

For rare individuals such as myself who had a Marine Corps gunny sgt. for a father and mentor and shot his heavy magnum when you were 5yrs old without ear protection from the front porch while sitting on his knee, you would prefer the .44 magnum and would be fond of the Ruger Super Balckhawk and Redhawk. You would prefer the Super Blackhawk for its accuracy and simple ellegance. You would load your own and have a favorite round for each occasion such as the Keith 250gr SWC (hard cast 50/50 wheel weight and lynotype mix)loaded with 9.7gr of Unique for fun plinking days or loaded with 22gr of 2400 for the big bang buck days. For accuracy would load the 210gr Sierra JSP or JHP with 26gr of WW296 with the CCI-300 large pistol primers. Very good accuracy out to 150 yards and even at 100 yards you can hold a 4" group. For the bahemath stopper you would load the depleted uranium secret load you share with nobody becuase it may hurt others who attempt to load and shoot a round handled only by rare individuals who know the secret hand shake and can therefore pass on the load data for.

Peace brother!

293 posted on 02/28/2003 4:47:00 PM PST by Mat_Helm
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To: ez
Charter Arms undercover is maybe underpowered at a 38 but years of carrying aud use makes it an extension of my hand. I would always want a double tap anyway. Reliable, quality construction. Lots to love.

For defense I would always revert to those I was most familiar with, those which fall into position and function so naturally, like driving, it could operate without conscious thought and without surprises.
294 posted on 02/28/2003 5:06:28 PM PST by 8mmMauser (molon labe)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
"everytime your discharge your gun in self-defense you may have a possible lawsuit on your hands if your rounds miss ..."

Spodefly don't miss! ;)

295 posted on 02/28/2003 5:30:15 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: harpseal
A few Islamikazis in the kindergartens and night clubs and that may chnge over night.

The most likely response will be for the gun grabboids to try to ban more guns from Americans.

Possibly, in some jurisdictions. But at some point gun owners, esp veterens, will simply not comply. It will start "LA Korean style" with people guarding their kids schools open carry, and it will spread, with police told to back off, and "the 2nd amendment and my DD214 are all the papers I need."

296 posted on 02/28/2003 8:59:01 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: sneakypete; harpseal
Harpseal and I were just discussing revolvers, the pros and cons of getting a new .45acp revolver vice a .44sp revolver. Taurus makes them, and Charter is going to.
297 posted on 02/28/2003 9:00:44 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: sneakypete
How often do you consider the luck that it has taken to see you through until today? The bullets and frags that whizzed past you and missed by one inch?
298 posted on 02/28/2003 9:04:31 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 8mmMauser
I love my C.A. .38 also!
299 posted on 02/28/2003 9:06:15 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Why not a good Colt or S&W Model 1917 in .45 ACP? If they're tight and have a good bore they shoot real well.

Regards

J.R.

300 posted on 02/28/2003 9:10:39 PM PST by NMC EXP
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