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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: river rat
I call it the "Rule of Trump." My pistol trumps your karate, period. Your AR-15 trumps my pistol. My tank trumps your AR-15. Your A-10 trumps my tank, and so on up the line.
301 posted on 02/28/2003 9:11:15 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: NMC EXP
I was thinking more of belly guns and snubby 5 shots, but that would be a fine gun I guess, but I don't know much about the cost or reliablity of antique revolvers.
302 posted on 02/28/2003 9:14:01 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
The M1917 ain't a belly gun to be sure. I've been looking for one for a collector and shooter. Average condition with US Property marks is $500 around here. Many w/o US marks were sold to south american govts and are cheaper.

Quality and reliability were what you would expect for Colt and S&W in those days. Old pistol bullseye shooters have told me they were very accurate.

Regards

J.R.

303 posted on 02/28/2003 9:23:58 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: NMC EXP
They used half moon clips, didn't they?
304 posted on 02/28/2003 9:27:47 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Yup -- half moon clips.
305 posted on 02/28/2003 9:31:48 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: Travis McGee
Pistol, .45 Cal., Revolver, M1917

During World War I, due to a shortage of M1911 pistols, the Army procured Colt New Service and Smith & Wesson hand ejector cal. .45 six-round double-action revolvers. These pistols were standard issue until World War II, when they were only issued to Military Police and security personnel. Both pistols used the same rimless .45 cal. cartridge as the M1911/M1911A1 pistol (305,000).

306 posted on 02/28/2003 9:39:10 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
"Good .45 ACP hollowpoints cost me about $23 per 50"

Handloading Gold Dots for the .40, the price is $7/50. For teh .45, it's only a buck more.
307 posted on 02/28/2003 9:41:22 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: Travis McGee
How often do you consider the luck that it has taken to see you through until today?

There is no doubt I've been lucky. I was lucky I loaded a mag wrong that day because I had lost all track of time and place,and would have most likely been overran if I had hung around for even a few more minutes.

The bullets and frags that whizzed past you and missed by one inch?

I've got some pieces of frags laying around somewhere that didn't miss. One big piece pulled from my rucksack near the anti-tank mine (Korean War-era with TNT) I carried,and another piece from the bottom of my bootheel. The big piece came from a RPG round that took me off my feet. I don't remember how I got the one from my boot heel.

Proving once again that is it MUCH more important to be lucky than it is smart.

308 posted on 03/01/2003 12:49:12 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: Travis McGee
Hi, Travis, It's been quite awhile, have been out of circulation for some time now, just getting back.

Also have a couple speedloaders but it chills me to think I would ever need them.

Wounded a buck this fall, a running shot, hate that. Dispatched the poor thing with the CA 38, another strong reminder of limitations, but also a reminder reflexes work. Deer have very small brains, tiny target really, lots like liberals. Hope I don't have to defend myself from a liberal.

Aim small, miss small. Tiny thinking centers must be the same with all the lefties. Easier to confront a plain old misguided criminal, I guess, and anyway forget a head shot.
309 posted on 03/01/2003 4:54:08 AM PST by 8mmMauser (molon labe)
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To: sneakypete
Let me start by stating I think both the .44spl and the .45acp are excelent stopping cartridges. Further, let me state that I think reloading is an excellent hobby and something that should be encouraged.

The above said lets face it not everyone not even a majority of those who carry for self defense will be reloaders. Reloaded ammunition is great for practice but God help the person in an anti-gun state with an anti-gun prosecutor who uses hand loads in a self defense situation. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Not only did this person shoot this poor disadvantaged youth but he was not satisfied shooting him with the deadly ammunition available over the counter he had to make up his own even more harmful ammunition....."

Now, a factory hollow point has the advantage that it can be argued to the jury. "The defendant was responsible enough to pick ammunition that would not over penetrate and even went to the trouble of getting the same ammunition used by _______ police department." Is a .44 spl wad cutter a better stopper than a .45acp hollow point? I personally would be satisfied with either. It a Charter Bulldog pug a good self defense sidearm? Most certainly. Is a model 1911 .45acp a good self defense sidearm? Again most certainly. Is the ammount of practice one gets with a sidearm more important than caliber choice? IMHO again most certainly.

My usual choice of sidearm is a .45acp semi auto pistol with a ten round magazine. Is this for everyone? Certainly not.

310 posted on 03/01/2003 5:00:22 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: sneakypete
All I knew at that time was that the click I heard when I dropped the hammer on a empty chamber was the loudest noise I had ever heard in my life,...

The scariest sound in the world is click when one expects to hear bang.

311 posted on 03/01/2003 5:11:18 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Travis McGee
Possibly, in some jurisdictions. But at some point gun owners, esp veterens, will simply not comply. It will start "LA Korean style" with people guarding their kids schools open carry, and it will spread, with police told to back off, and "the 2nd amendment and my DD214 are all the papers I need

I agree eventually that will be the case but getting from here to there will involve a whole lot of pain. The initial reaction will be for the gun grabboids to demand banning everything.

312 posted on 03/01/2003 5:24:52 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: sneakypete
Well I think about that "luck" you had, I think about all the 19 year old Marines that I have seen leave San Diego in the last few months, and I promise that when the bullets start to fly over there any Saddamites who go out on the streets to call them baby killers are going to be met this time, and will not enjoy the meeting.

Agree with the war or not, we are going to support the troops tht go into harm's way this time, all the way home.

313 posted on 03/01/2003 8:12:43 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 8mmMauser
Great to see you posting again! This has been the default gun thread for a week. Check out my book's website, I have 28 chapters posted there. It's called Enemies Foreign And Domestic, and it's about what happens after an "assault rifle massacre" at a stadium, when semi-auto rifles are all banned.
314 posted on 03/01/2003 8:19:42 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: harpseal
That will be an interesting interval, getting from here to there. I can imagine some civil disobedience on the lines of forcing the police to arrest a responsible veteran standing on private school property, where he has permission to stand guard with his SUR. That will be very difficult for police if other unguarded schools have been targeted by Islamofascists. Once that precedent is set open SUR carry could spread to private businesses, and so on.
315 posted on 03/01/2003 8:23:51 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: harpseal
However, the big problem is that a long gun is just not socially acceptable to take arround with one in public in most cities these days.

With the ubiquity of backpacks these days a handy little Kel-Tec sub 2000 might be a good investment. It can be had in .40 or 9mm. At least you would get similar ballistics to an MP5.

A death-ray it ain't, but I'd prefer it to my .45 in a terrorist as opposed to a criminal confrontation.

316 posted on 03/01/2003 10:38:52 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: Travis McGee
SUR?
317 posted on 03/01/2003 10:44:04 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: sneakypete
People who screw around with sight alignment end up getting killed.

I stated in my previous comment that if your assailant was too close, you may not have time for sight alignment with your handgun. If there is no time for sight alignment it would be stupid to try and align your sights with your firearm.

They teach the good old draw and shoot at your firing side if your opponent is too close. (I'll see if I can find a picture of the shooting position that I am describing.)

318 posted on 03/01/2003 5:55:44 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: harpseal
Reloaded ammunition is great for practice but God help the person in an anti-gun state with an anti-gun prosecutor who uses hand loads in a self defense situation. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Not only did this person shoot this poor disadvantaged youth but he was not satisfied shooting him with the deadly ammunition available over the counter he had to make up his own even more harmful ammunition....."

Harp,I know the Boob rent-a-cop has preached this nonsense until it has become accepted as a fact,but I defy anyone to find me ONE single case where this has happened. You can't,and neither can A-Boob. The fact is that if it is a "good shoot",it makes no difference if you shot him with a 105 canister round. You were justified in killing him. If it WASN'T a "good shoot",it's not going to help you if you shot him with a 25ACP.

319 posted on 03/02/2003 12:36:21 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
They teach the good old draw and shoot at your firing side if your opponent is too close.

I don't know who "They" are,but somebody needs to slap some sense into them. You could miss a Buick at 10 feet if you're trying to shoot that way. Form a triangle with your back being the back side,your two arms being the left and right angles,and the centered handgun being the point. If you are holding it out in front of you and facing and looking at your target with both eyes,it's damn near impossible to miss. You need your eyes open and looking at your target instead of your sights so you can see where the bullets are striking him to adjust fire,and to see how he is reacting to the bullets that are striking him. If he continues to bring his gun to bear on you,this would be a excellent time for you to step to the side as you continue to face him and fire. You won't see him doing this if you are focusing on your sights. Neither will you see any of his buddies coming to his aid from the side. Or as far as that goes,if you are being attacked by more than one person,your ability to see the first attacker you are shooting going down gives you the instant option of transfering fire to his buddies. This could be worth a couple of seconds to you. Seconds that are vital for your survival.

320 posted on 03/02/2003 1:03:37 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: sneakypete
I honestly can not point to a specific case where such has happened and I would not expect a problem outside NY, NJ, MA, CT HI, IL, or maybe some parts of CA. In NJ possession of a hollow point round is a crime. I waqs thinking more of the case where it is very much marginal and the prosecution is for possession of a firearm instead of the righteousness of the shoot. No I can not cite any specific example and I am relying on a certain "expert's" logic in this. The primary reason for using that logic is that said expert is a regular "expert" witness in justifiable shooting cases.
321 posted on 03/02/2003 5:30:06 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Travis McGee
I call it the "Rule of Trump." My pistol trumps your karate, period. Your AR-15 trumps my pistol. My tank trumps your AR-15. Your A-10 trumps my tank, and so on up the line.

Depends on circumstances. If your pistol is within arm's reach of my teacher, you're not likely to keep it for long. If your pistol is within 3 yards of my rifle, you're likely to be faster to the shot than I will. If your tank's crew are outside the tank fixing a tread, my rifle will create problems for them, as would your tank's main gun as it crashes through the airstrip's fence catching my A-10 on the ground.

322 posted on 03/02/2003 9:20:34 AM PST by SauronOfMordor (Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
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To: Woahhs
SUR = Sport Utility Rifle, AKA semi auto military pattern rifle.
323 posted on 03/02/2003 2:47:17 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: sneakypete
You won't see him doing this if you are focusing on your sights. Neither will you see any of his buddies coming to his aid from the side.

My training covers this point too. If you have time to align your sights you take two shots, then a quick look at your assailant. If your target is down, a fast glance to the right and left sides of you. After this is completed you look back at your assailant and check him out for two seconds, then scan the area for any remaining enemies. If the area is clear it is time for a tactical reload. Reload your pistol then look around. If area is still safe, reholster your weapon.

324 posted on 03/02/2003 10:16:08 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I need to make an annoucement. There is a small error in the Hatcher Ratings on the .45 ACP round.

The .45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain should be rated at 60.7

The .45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain should be rated at 66.8

325 posted on 03/03/2003 6:25:05 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: harpseal
The primary reason for using that logic is that said expert is a regular "expert" witness in justifiable shooting cases.

This same "expert" makes a VERY good living selling books and videos,yet even HE can not come up with ONE single case where the type of bullet or load fired had anything to do with a case. I guess it would be possible in NJ for a zealous DA to charge someone involved in a "good shoot" with the local felony of being in possession of hollow-points,but even that hasn't happened. I suspect the biggest reason for this is it would get thrown out of court,and the DA making the charges would look foolish. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been convicted of this "crime" in NJ. It's just a political pose.

326 posted on 03/03/2003 9:00:12 PM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
My training covers this point too. If you have time to align your sights you take two shots, then a quick look at your assailant. If your target is down, a fast glance to the right and left sides of you. After this is completed you look back at your assailant and check him out for two seconds, then scan the area for any remaining enemies. If the area is clear it is time for a tactical reload. Reload your pistol then look around. If area is still safe, reholster your weapon.

If you're happy believing that nonsense,I'm happy for you.

327 posted on 03/04/2003 1:27:43 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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9/10 times that I say I have a Glock 22, people ask "Glock makes a .22?"
328 posted on 03/04/2003 2:44:21 AM PST by KneelBeforeZod (Deus Lo Volt!)
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To: sneakypete
If you're happy believing that nonsense, I'm happy for you.

How are the techniques I described nonsense? Is it nonsense to know what is going on around you?

329 posted on 03/04/2003 10:21:00 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
How are the techniques I described nonsense?

I already explained this to you in a earlier post. You don't believe me.

Is it nonsense to know what is going on around you?

No,and that's the very point I was making. The shooter looking over his gun with both eyes open will know what's going on around him. The one worried about sight alignment won't,but go ahead and believe what you want to believe.

330 posted on 03/04/2003 6:42:01 PM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Great post to start a bigger is better thread.
I personally do not have .357 Sig or a .41 at this time,
but my .44 Special Bulldog sure is comforting when something goes 'bump in night' out here on the prairie. Just for grins, I ran my Desert Eagle .50AE through the
formula (love those ballistic software packages)---WOW,
a 308.263 rating! I guess bigger is better, but until I get in some more practice--still waiting on reloading dies--I think I'll keep that .44 Special close at hand.
331 posted on 03/04/2003 7:38:57 PM PST by RyeWhiskeyJoe (Remember---etc..........empty the clip!!!!)
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To: sneakypete
The shooter looking over his gun with both eyes open will know what's going on around him. The one worried about sight alignment won't, but go ahead and believe what you want to believe.

There are many factors to using a gun in self defense. To say there is only one way to do things in every situation is not logical.

To say that one will not be able to see anything because they are using sight alignment is not true. There are statistics that point to the facts over and over to show that by in large those who only point shoot hit their targets only about 15% to 20% of the time. S.W.A.T. teams use sight alignment and hit their targets about 85% of time. I would wager to say that members of S.W.A.T. know what is going on around them in hostile situations.

It would be foolish to not use your sights to shoot if your wife had a knife at her throat and was being held by a deranged madman who was using her as a shield and only had his head exposed.

There are also times to point shoot as well. Every hostile situation could call for different self defense techniques.

332 posted on 03/04/2003 11:45:44 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: RyeWhiskeyJoe
If you used the Hatcher formula to determine the stopping power of a rifle round it will not work. The Hatcher formula is only intended to measure the approximate handgun cartridge stopping power.

A .44 Special Bulldog is a very adequate handgun. .357 Sig and .357 Magnum are not as good as the .44 Special round in stopping power.

333 posted on 03/04/2003 11:51:44 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: boltCutter
But for police, carrying long guns routinely should be seriously considered.

No thanks, I'd rather not have our police forces looking like Rambo wannabes or mexican federales even if they are.

334 posted on 03/04/2003 11:55:40 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Take charge of your destiny, or someone else will)
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To: harpseal
Let me start by stating I think both the .44spl and the .45acp are excelent stopping cartridges. Further, let me state that I think reloading is an excellent hobby and something that should be encouraged.

I just started doing this myself ... it's actually quite fun to know that you are making the ammo that may one day save your life or take down whatever you hunt.

Developed my perfect load .... 360 solid LBT in 45 colt at about 1200 fps ... works like a champ in my ruger.

335 posted on 03/05/2003 12:08:31 AM PST by Centurion2000 (Take charge of your destiny, or someone else will)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
S.W.A.T. teams use sight alignment and hit their targets about 85% of time. I would wager to say that members of S.W.A.T. know what is going on around them in hostile situations.

ROFLMAO! See a SWAT team raid,and from all the laser lights flying all over the place,you would swear you are in a scene from Star Wars. The reason they use these lasers is so they can point shoot. Usually the wrong person.

336 posted on 03/05/2003 6:22:16 AM PST by sneakypete (Music is magic you can hear.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I agree wholeheartedly---by the way, the .50 AE is a handgun round--seven of them fit nicely in my 84 oz. Desert Eagle semi-auto pistol. 325 grain softpoint at 1600 fps or a stomping 350 grainer at about 1525 fps. Pretty much puts the stop on anything it runs across. I never really got too excited about 50 calibers (except muzzleloaders) until I saw Klintoon and Reno at a press conferance declare that there was no legitimate reason for anyone to own a handgun like the Desert Eagle .50 AE. That did it for me--best d__m reason I ever heard of to go out and buy one. At 84 oz., the recoil is not too bad (I,m 6'5" and 250#) but accurate quick follow-up shots do require lots of practice.
337 posted on 03/05/2003 7:04:57 AM PST by RyeWhiskeyJoe
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To: NMC EXP; Travis McGee; harpseal; sneakypete
May I join in? If so, have you ever considered this?

http://www.handloads.com/articles/45lc.htm
338 posted on 03/08/2003 6:00:52 AM PST by 30-06 Springfield
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To: 30-06 Springfield
Clearly a handloaded .45 Colt (or .45 Long Colt since there also is a .45 Colt in shorter version) can be an excellent defensive caliber. I still will be carrying my .45acp.
339 posted on 03/08/2003 6:41:41 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Sadly it is no longer socially acceptable to walk down the street with the venerable "45" strapped on one's hip. Maybe those days will one day come back. I pray they come back in light of peace and not because we are forced to defend ourselves against the scum of the earth on a daily basis.
340 posted on 03/08/2003 6:54:23 AM PST by 30-06 Springfield
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To: resistance
3o cal for 00 Buck, or is it 33 I forget?
341 posted on 03/09/2003 1:26:02 AM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: 30-06 Springfield
May I join in?

Of course, and welcome.

I am not a big time pistolero. For defense purposes I am partial to the Model 1911 in .45 ACP. I am not a fan of the .44 magnum handguns for defense or hunting (use a shotgun or a rifle instead). For relatively close range work I am an advocate of large diameter, heavy bullets at moderate velocity. Sounds like a souped up .45 Colt has potential.

Regards

J.R.

342 posted on 03/09/2003 7:55:27 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: ez
Heckler & Koch USP.40, simply amazing weapon. And you are right, the .40 is the way to go for a concealable piece. The .45 Colt is also a great piece, but does conceal as well.
343 posted on 12/22/2003 6:31:31 PM PST by Dead Burglar
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
There's nothing wrong with a 9mm with the right load -- has all the stopping power of premium .45s and .40s. Not quite as much as .357, but that's a slightly different comparison. 9s are great in that target ammo is cheap, and if you shoot correctly, one shot stopping power is totally irrelevent. I'm not sure if the tactic is taught in all special forces, but the ones I've heard of teach 2 to the body and one to the head (boom boom, ...boom). Practice that, and I defy anyone to show me a case where that was used and a perp kept coming. But either way, you don't stop shooting until they stop. Just hit what you aim at.
344 posted on 12/22/2003 6:39:23 PM PST by 1L
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To: Centurion2000
"454 with a 300 grain hollow point @ 1600 fps"

Should rate about a 350 on this scale. I would guess that means you could 1 shot stop about 7 bad guys if they stood in a column! That round can penetrate an elephant's skull. And the muzzle flash would bar-b-q it.
345 posted on 12/22/2003 6:53:16 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian (Part of the Vast Right Wing Apparatus since Ford lost. ><BCC>)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge.

He was a loudmouthed self proclaimed authority. Try Marshall and Sanow. They have catalogued every law enforcement shooting for many years and last I heard the 357 was at the top of the heap. It was barely above the rest. The modern 9mm cartridge was ranked very high

346 posted on 12/22/2003 7:49:53 PM PST by Nov3
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To: 1L
"There's nothing wrong with a 9mm with the right load -- has all the stopping power of premium .45s and .40s. Not quite as much as .357, but that's a slightly different comparison... I'm not sure if the tactic is taught in all special forces, but the ones I've heard of teach 2 to the body and one to the head..."

Every time you pull the trigger the bullet leaving your barrel is a liability. I want as few liabilities as I can get if I am ever involved in a self defense shooting. Your accuracy in a pressure situation will only be about half as good because of your high adrenaline rate.

If the 9 X 19 round is so great why are almost all police departments now going to the .40 S&W round? The 9 millimeter round has much less stopping power than the .40 S&W and .45 ACP rounds. If you ever fire a .40 S&W or .45 ACP you can feel the difference in power.

347 posted on 12/29/2003 1:25:57 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: NonValueAdded
The American Derringer Co. makes a model like that. I think you can get the stack barrel with a 410 rd on top and a 45 Colt round on the bottom. But remember, it is something to be used at contact range. Not much accuracy beyond say three feet. Pretty close! Also remember how much it will kick, especially with the Colt 45 load, and it has damn tiny grips by necessity. For it's rather small size, it will also be fairly heavy. I considered one of these myself (after seeing the same movie, lol) but took into account what I just mentioned to you, and decided not to specialize that much. Also remember it will be slow to reload and what happens if you have to shoot more than two rounds?

I'd like to know the Hatch ratings on the various prefrangible rounds such as the GLASER series or the MagSafe rounds, which I carry in my Glock (M27) 40 and M1911 series 45's. I also have them for my Beretta M92 9mm.

348 posted on 02/24/2004 9:16:57 PM PST by ExSoldier (When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I'd like to know the Hatcher ratings on the various prefrangible rounds such as the GLASER series or the MagSafe rounds, which I carry in my Glock (M27) 40 and M1911 series 45's. I also have them for my Beretta M92 9mm. Low recoil, low flash and very good accuracy. No threat of a T-N-T (Thru-N-Thru gunshot wound) to injure an innocent, or of a richochet wounding.

"If you have not fired a firearm within six months you are probably incompetant with your weapon."

My wife is the exception! Geeze, she is a QUILTER for godssakes! She shoots to please me. ONCE a year, she takes her Combat Commander 45 out to the range, draws from a holster and BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! She scores all "A" ZONE hits and goes home.

Me? I'm not a warm weather competitor. So my IDPA season is fairly short. I get in some practice when I take clients to the range to check them out for their Florida CCW Permit apps. But that's about it. December to May I'm on a range with IDPA at least twice a month. June thru November, forget it. I think my next gun (to be purchased this weekend) is going to be a Colt Defender, in .45. That will be my new all around carry gun. I'll just need to put some tritium night sights on it.

349 posted on 02/24/2004 9:26:43 PM PST by ExSoldier (When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.)
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To: ExSoldier
a Sneakypete bump!
350 posted on 02/24/2004 10:21:58 PM PST by budwiesest
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