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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: Travis McGee
That caliber....22...kills more than anything else...due to widespread ownership to be sure but still...

I won't go over my own getting shot by one story again but it stung.

OTOH....if it had been a .30-06....I'd be long ago worm fed.
51 posted on 02/22/2003 10:08:14 PM PST by wardaddy (The calm before the storm is in the air.....does anyone else feel it?)
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To: Hootowl
This is why you double-tap...always!


/ / / /
Sounds good to me. Supposedly that is a Mossad MO.
52 posted on 02/22/2003 10:11:54 PM PST by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: Polycarp
Great addition! Thanks!
53 posted on 02/22/2003 10:14:40 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
Is she a shooter already? If not I'd lean to revolvers, .38 special or .44 special in a five shot snubbie.
54 posted on 02/22/2003 10:16:04 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Super Mak90kid
My Girlfriend really likes her .38 Special Ruger SP101.


/ / / / /
I like it too, and I'm a guy. (I should have bought it in the .357 caliber, though!)
55 posted on 02/22/2003 10:16:30 PM PST by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: Squantos
And don't forget to add that the gun you can reach is ALWAYS superior to the gun locked up at home in a safe!
56 posted on 02/22/2003 10:19:29 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: wardaddy
A day you will not soon forget I am sure.
57 posted on 02/22/2003 10:20:53 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee; glock rocks; SLB; Fred Mertz
Goes without saying in present company ........Stay Safe !!
58 posted on 02/22/2003 10:21:39 PM PST by Squantos (If the speed limit is 75 mph, why are vehicles made to go 76 mph or faster ?........:o)
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To: Travis McGee
Yep.....January duck season, Matthews Brake, Mississippi Delta, Last Hope Hunting Club, 1977.

I would have sworn I had a bullet in my brain pan rather than fortunately in my inner ear canal.

What I remember most is the instant lack of equilibrium and the overwhleming nausea....and the blood of course....not to mention the look on my assassin's face as I stumbled through the swamp up to the camp steps...lol
59 posted on 02/22/2003 10:27:28 PM PST by wardaddy (The calm before the storm is in the air.....does anyone else feel it?)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
The eleven year old girl that shoots IDPA with us uses a 9MM FN Highpower .
60 posted on 02/22/2003 10:28:23 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Travis McGee; All
Is she a shooter already?

Yes, she came well-trained in firearms from her Dad (small caliber rifles mostly), but she doesn't get out to practice as much as I'd like her to. My plan is to get her to the range on a regular basis, get her a concealed carry license and something that is practical to carry.

Thanks for the input. I probably should take her to the range and rent some of these to see what she likes best. But this gives me some good ideas for starters.

But I must say, I would think a .44 would have way too much kick for her.

61 posted on 02/22/2003 10:28:51 PM PST by ConservativeLawyer (Gun control means keeping it on target until the magazine is empty.)
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To: Squantos; harpseal; Travis McGee; sneakypete; Chapita
I have found a 155mm TOT to be efficent, failing that a 1 kt nude should settled the hash.
62 posted on 02/22/2003 10:32:42 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: Shooter 2.5; wardaddy; Squantos
Thanks for your insight, gentlemen. I'll check out your suggestions.
63 posted on 02/22/2003 10:33:41 PM PST by ConservativeLawyer (Gun control means keeping it on target until the magazine is empty.)
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To: Travis McGee
Travis, have you seen that new rifle Kel-tec is coming out in .223. It's the SU-16. Sport Utility 16. It has room for spare mags in the buttstock and the foregrip splits in two halves and folds down into a bipod. I love new toys but I must wait until the thing gets out and gets some reviews that aren't in a gun mag before I will buy one. They are also coming out with a .38 cal pistol (P3AT) in the size of their P32. That seems more practical to me. I might be able to pocket carry that at work, where I'm not supposed to carry.
64 posted on 02/22/2003 10:34:16 PM PST by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: kAcknor
The best round out of the .357 is the 125Gr JHP. I don't see it listed.
65 posted on 02/22/2003 10:35:17 PM PST by KaiserofKrunch
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To: razorback-bert
A 1 kt nude can ruin your whole day.
66 posted on 02/22/2003 10:36:11 PM PST by ConservativeLawyer (Gun control means keeping it on target until the magazine is empty.)
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To: big ern
Damn, I just realized I posted a huge picture of a rifle on a pistol thread. Sorry folks but this happens sometimes on a bang_list thread.
67 posted on 02/22/2003 10:40:37 PM PST by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: ConservativeLawyer
Not .44 mag, .44 special, which has a nice soft non-jarring push.

If she would get into it enough to practice, let her handle various semis from 9mm and up, and let her find the one she likes best, the one that she "fits" will be the one she enjoys, and will therefore be more interested in practicing with, setting up a happy positive feedback loop.

If she's not interested enough to practice much, stick with a wheelgun.

68 posted on 02/22/2003 10:40:48 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
Key point is to let "her" decide if she can handle recoil. You'd be surprised at the little ladies I know that pack 1911A1's...... Your smart to go the range rental avenue first as she can try before she buys that way.

WARNING: BEWARE THE GUNSHOP COUNTER COMMANDO ! ......They "sell" more than they shoot or carry........

One more consideration is the weight. That is why I suggested the TiLite series "scadnium" snub nosed revolvers......she'll carry a comfortable firearm and leave a heavy one in her car purse, or worst yet .....at home. That barimi grips also make it easy to don and doff .

Conveinance is a big part of the choice. She has to be happy and confident in the selection or your just wasting yer time.

One more suggestion. Join IDPA and shoot some of the competition "games" that promote skills and practice while having some serious fun. It's the best practice a civilian can get IMHO.

Stay Safe !

69 posted on 02/22/2003 10:40:54 PM PST by Squantos (If the speed limit is 75 mph, why are vehicles made to go 76 mph or faster ?........:o)
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To: razorback-bert
I try to stay away from 1k nudes.
70 posted on 02/22/2003 10:41:30 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: BenR2
Thanks for the ping. I think this is the formula. I found it on a game website.

(Velocity * Mass (in grains) * (Caliber / 2) ^ 2 * 3.14159265) / 490) *.9


I can figure out what everything means except the ^. It will have to wait until morning.
71 posted on 02/22/2003 10:42:58 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: razorback-bert
LOL......That's an awful fat nekid gurl ya have protecting ya bert ?....... Ikt Nude

Anything that works in a barfight heh..... :o)

Stay Safe !

72 posted on 02/22/2003 10:43:19 PM PST by Squantos (If the speed limit is 75 mph, why are vehicles made to go 76 mph or faster ?........:o)
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To: Shooter 2.5
I can figure out what everything means except the ^. It will have to wait until morning.

/ / / / /
Thank you. I'm tired, too, but I believe it means "to the power of," so, in this case, it would mean "squared."
73 posted on 02/22/2003 10:44:33 PM PST by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I've got a Colt 1911 Gov. mod 38 super. It shoots only + P with the wallop of a mid-range 357 mag. The clip holds 9+1 , little recoil. I can get off 2 well aimed shots while a 45 cal shooter is readjusting from the muzzle flip of their 1st shot ! (Depending on who shoots 1st) ... If the 45 doesn't have an accurate primary shot , he's a Dead Duck !!
74 posted on 02/22/2003 10:45:03 PM PST by circularletter (Hoosier worse lib)
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To: big ern; Squantos; wardaddy
KelTec is a good little company with a lot of cutting edge innovations at an affordable price. Their 9mm folding carbine has been considered a great success, if you want a 9mm carbine that is.

I had not seen the .223 folder, and would not be surpised if it's not another winner! Great forestock/bipod idea also!

75 posted on 02/22/2003 10:46:02 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: big ern
Smart choice for a handgun fight "is" a rifle Ern....:o)....yer subconscious at work per se....

Stay Safe !

76 posted on 02/22/2003 10:46:03 PM PST by Squantos (If the speed limit is 75 mph, why are vehicles made to go 76 mph or faster ?........:o)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Glock 23 and 27 bump...
77 posted on 02/22/2003 10:48:10 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: big ern; Shooter 2.5; archy
PS I'd like to know about the KelTec SU=16's gas tube/piston operation. It would be a shame if it was another Mini-14 accuracy wise with great changes in zero as it heats up.
78 posted on 02/22/2003 10:49:35 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Not .44 mag, .44 special, which has a nice soft non-jarring push.

Duh! I missed that. I'm not all that familiar with that caliber to start with, so we'll have to try one out.

79 posted on 02/22/2003 10:50:02 PM PST by ConservativeLawyer (Gun control means keeping it on target until the magazine is empty.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
When I was managing The Old Sacramento Armoury 28 years ago, the Hatcher Relative Stopping Power Scale was defined to be a scale of zero to 100 in which ascore of 100 was the capability of STOPPING a man, in a fight situation, with one shot EVERY TIME. Essentially, the score was the percentage odds that any given round would do the job with one shot. No handgun/ammunition combination came close. The score you report for one round of 136 is not possible under this definition.

The highest rated round in 1970 only rated a HRSP of 72.

80 posted on 02/22/2003 10:55:17 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline Extermination Services, franchises available, small investment, big profit)
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To: Squantos; Travis McGee
One more suggestion. Join IDPA and shoot some of the competition "games" that promote skills and practice while having some serious fun. It's the best practice a civilian can get IMHO.

I just checked out their website. There are two affiliated clubs not that far from me. Looks like a good time and you can come away with some knowledge and skills. Thanks.

You guys are the best, but if you ever tell anyone I said that, I will deny it.

81 posted on 02/22/2003 10:57:51 PM PST by ConservativeLawyer (Gun control means keeping it on target until the magazine is empty.)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
You'll like it. Very nice purse gun as well, where the slightly fatter cylinder does not matter.
82 posted on 02/22/2003 10:58:32 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: ConservativeLawyer
LOL......I understand .........:o)

Stay Safe !

83 posted on 02/22/2003 11:01:15 PM PST by Squantos (If the speed limit is 75 mph, why are vehicles made to go 76 mph or faster ?........:o)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Glock 23

/ / / /
I'll bump to that!
84 posted on 02/22/2003 11:13:36 PM PST by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: Polycarp
that is just FReeping awesome...

THANKS!

TC
85 posted on 02/22/2003 11:14:45 PM PST by USMC_tangocharlie (Victory belongs to the man who wants it the most, and believes in it the longest.)
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To: ConservativeLawyer; Squantos
even better than the training and fun you'll have with idpa is the network of like minded folks you'll meet.

one of the local chapters i've shot with usually has the trainers from two different county sheriff depts, a gun law author/attorney, several deputies from the various counties, former marine gunnys, idpa champs from ours and visiting neighboring states, nra champs, etc. you can't help but learn some useful stuff, and also get some further leads on training... this has been the real benefit for me.

a group of my friends and i make our own scenarios and have built target stands, etc. ... timers, the whole ball of wax, just to practice on our own. it's a class A hoot!

86 posted on 02/22/2003 11:16:28 PM PST by glock rocks (God bless America.)
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To: Polycarp
Any advice?

Get the Para. You won't be sorry. I've got a P-12 LDA and it's simply an outstanding weapon.

87 posted on 02/22/2003 11:19:35 PM PST by Euro-American Scum
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To: razorback-bert
" a 1 kt nude"

I'll sleep well tonight. Thanks for not posting a pic.

88 posted on 02/22/2003 11:21:46 PM PST by spunkets
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To: glock rocks
Did ya try the drop stop targets with the balloon in the head part of a box holding up the target box ? Hit the head in a failure drill and the balloon breaks and the target drops to the ground......

Stay Safe !

89 posted on 02/22/2003 11:23:42 PM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: glock rocks
Hey GR --

Have you ever shot the Springfield Armory XD pistols? I'm seriously considering one or more after all this Glock frame rail/ballistic fingerprinting nonsense.

Of course, if they ever come out with an XD45, I'll be first in line, gun licensing or no gun licensing. -:)

90 posted on 02/22/2003 11:28:50 PM PST by Euro-American Scum
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To: Squantos
that sounds great!

we have some very imaginative folks (who seem to have way too much time on their hands LOL)... one of the guys built a um, i guess you'd call it a wooden railroad track, that curved out from behind a portable wall... right up to your toes... anyhow, once you double tapped the first two targets on your left, the range officer released the last target... and this whole target stand with silohuette would roll down the ramp behind the wall, and curve around the corner and charge you. you had about 1.5 seconds to get two to the center before it ran over your toes (if you weren't paying attention).

i have never laughed so hard in my life watching people do this cof.

these folks were in total panic, and nonetheless, were putting some perfect holes in the target. amazing.
91 posted on 02/22/2003 11:33:28 PM PST by glock rocks (God bless America.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender; All
Thanks for this post, it is timely for me.

I have been practicing at the range with a Glock 22 (0.40) and a Glock 21 (0.45). Both are comfortable and I can shoot fairly accurately with my limited practice (several hundred rounds each). I have also shot revolvers and some other handguns and don't like them as much as these Glocks.

I have been leaning towards the 21 because it is bigger, I am a big guy. What do you Freepers think?

I would also like to buy a shotgun and/or rifle for family defense. Any suggestions? I have kids in the 7-10 year old range at my house. Thanks? Any suggestions for safe storage? (I don't consider myself in imminent danger).
92 posted on 02/22/2003 11:34:39 PM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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To: ez
45
93 posted on 02/22/2003 11:35:17 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: Euro-American Scum
hi my friend. no, i haven't even seen the xd in person yet. it does look promising.

i'm thinking this thread is a keeper. lotsa info to digest here... it's a task to read some and post some and so on :-) so i'm going to bookmark it and read it while the little ones are in ccd tomorrow morning.
94 posted on 02/22/2003 11:38:35 PM PST by glock rocks (God bless America.)
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To: Servant of the Nine
any ideas on my post #92. You sound knowledgable.
95 posted on 02/22/2003 11:38:35 PM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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To: Euro-American Scum
I'm pretty much sold on the CrimsonTrace laser sights. I'm not sure if they make them yet for the smallest Para's. I'm looking at the 12.45 LDA, 14.40 LDA, and PARA CARRY C6.45 LDA.

I've ruled out the Steyr m40.

I'm also considering the SigSauer P229 in .40 S&W. But I don't think its near as small as the Para Carry.

Its going to come down to which models I can get the Crimson Trace for, then size/concealability, then brand/price. I'd prefer the Para, not sure I can afford it.
96 posted on 02/22/2003 11:42:37 PM PST by Polycarp
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To: glock rocks
Trajectory x Mass - Time + Fear is quelled by Pucker Ffactor with proper training every time ......:o)

You ever play the chain game ? ya take a line and suspend it across the range. Hang about 7 bowling pins from individual lines suspended from the original "clothesline" across the range. Everyone gets their basic load (this was a game I played in DOD & LEO world) of say three magazines. Best when all involved have same load capacity or else mandate a 7 round limit in HiCap magazines.

Now each shooter gets to draw and try and hit each pin (that is stationary till ya hit the first one and then they are all moving.).....:o)

If the shooter hits all 7 pins, they stop and their time is taken down. They safe and holster their sidearm, "DO NOT" allow em to top off their mags and the next shooter does the same drill/COF. The most hits or last shooter with ammo left is declared the winner. In the case of a tie the time is the factor.

Good stress breaker for range day.......Stay Safe !

97 posted on 02/22/2003 11:52:24 PM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: Travis McGee
That new KelTec IS another Mini-14 with AR-7 accuracy, only it's even worse because it's another leech on the dwindling supply of AR-15 mags. Does the folding rifle concept really have a genuine market following anyway?

If there was a gunmaker out there who wanted to make something useful in .223, why not an HBAR Mini-14 that uses 10-round En-Bloc (Garand-style) clips and can actually shoot straight?

I'd buy one like that even if it looked like the rifles from 'Planet Of The Apes'.

98 posted on 02/22/2003 11:54:58 PM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: RobFromGa
A good shotgun out of the box for home defense is the Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12 gauge IMO. Simple,durable finish, easy to use , high capacity for a scattergun and fairly inexpensive. A little accessory called a side saddle ammo carrier makes it a fairly simple rig to keep handy with a few extra rounds.

There are better,more complex, worse, cheaper and more expensive out there but this was my choice for the 12 gauge that doesn't reside in the gun safe.......:o)

Stay Safe !!

99 posted on 02/23/2003 12:00:36 AM PST by Squantos (Life is like an analogy...........)
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To: Squantos
Thanks. Do you have a handgun as well? What do you recommend?
100 posted on 02/23/2003 12:04:34 AM PST by RobFromGa (It's Time to Bomb Saddam!)
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