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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

BTTT


351 posted on 05/15/2005 11:12:37 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo

Kinda strange to see Harpseal's posts here. He was a good guy.


352 posted on 05/15/2005 11:23:29 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: Shooter 2.5
He was indeed.

I found this thread by accident today after doing a Yahoo search for stopping power / wound ballisics.

Just discovered recently that I shoot 158 gr. .357 mag rounds more accurately than I shoot the 125 gr. variety (out of my Ruger GP-100, 4"), and I wanted to see if there was any data on their relative effectiveness in self-defense applications (in HP design). From what I've read so far, there seems to be no consenus.

353 posted on 05/15/2005 11:40:18 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo
.....any data on their relative effectiveness in self-defense applications (in HP design).

Assuming identical accuracy, of course.

354 posted on 05/15/2005 11:42:29 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: ExSoldier
I'd like to know the Hatch ratings on the various prefrangible rounds such as the GLASER series or the MagSafe rounds, which I carry in my Glock (M27) 40 and M1911 series 45's. I also have them for my Beretta M92 9mm.

Glaser rounds are not good for self defense purposes. Glaser rounds expand very quickly and cause shallow wounds. Shallow wounds equal no vital organ damage. No vital organ damage equals you can guess.

Get the heaviest round possible in grains that are hollowpoints for all your handguns. I would not however take over 135 grain bullets for your 9 x 19 handgun. The 135 grain are more effective than the 147 grain. Navy SEALs were using 147 grain in sound suppressed submachine guns for less sound signature. 135 grain have more powder behind the round I believe than the 147 grain.

355 posted on 05/16/2005 8:10:35 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: Nov3
The modern 9mm cartridge was ranked very high.

About all U.S. forces prefer the 1911 .45 handgun over the Beretta 9 x 19. There was a rally to dump the 9 x 19 and go back to the .45 ACP because .45 ACP has much more stopping power. 230 grain bullet versus 135 grain bullet. I think they didn't do it because our N.A.T.O. allies use handguns with the 9 x 19 round.


356 posted on 05/16/2005 8:17:48 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
In BALL ammo the 45 does have a substantial increase over 9mm. With modern +P+ hollow points the difference is negligible. Also the standard nato round is either 124 or 147 grain. Some 115 can be found in service. I am unaware of any 135 grain ball ammo but you seem well read on 9mm stopping power so perhaps you can shoot me a link? I am interested. BTW the top stopping round is the 357 with a mere 125 grain hollow point.

IMHO the main difference in stopping power between modern pistol cartridges is the user. The 9mm ranks a little lower because of all the poorly trained shots using it.

Also the Special Forces and others are using the 45 today.

357 posted on 05/16/2005 9:14:26 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: Nov3
I didn't know the military was using only 115 grain with the M-9. I made a mistake assuming military was using 135 grain bullets.

Here's a link below you can read about stopping power of pistol cartridges:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1394162/posts

358 posted on 05/16/2005 9:31:15 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Glaser rounds expand very quickly and cause shallow wounds.

That was Glaser Blue Glaser Silver penetrates more deeply and has been known to penetrate car windows and then disable or kill the target. Also MagSafe is an order of magnitude more effective than either of the Glasers and all prefrangibles are not equal!

Plus there is not any body of sufficient studies on the new round known as RBCD which my buddy in SpecOps swears by. RBCD Picture a 45ACP round screaming along at 2000 fps! I understand that there are currently studies underway on these rounds. I just have to believe that we've not reached peak development in ammo technology.

359 posted on 05/16/2005 10:37:16 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
They are not using only 115 grain with the M9. I said they were using some. The Nato standard is 124 and 147 as far as I know. I just asked about the 135 because the only 135 I know of is the federal Hydroshock. You seem to know a lot about the 9mm ballistics and I was wondering about the 135 grain ball load for the military? I have never seen it in 9x19. Is this a new load? I have never seen the 1st shoot knock down percentages on this load?

We can agree to disagree on "stopping" power of handguns but I say if a modern hot 9mm hollowpoint to the chest won't stop a gunfight a 45 wouldn't either. Now with ball ammo BOTH are shitty stoppers but the 45 has a definite edge. If I had to carry a handgun using only ball ammo it would be a 45.

BTW the Nato 124 gr load is right next to a duplicate load to the 125 grain 357 load. I know everyone here is big bore happy but even most of them will admit the 357 WILL stop a gunfight fast. As you know there are 4 load standards for the 9mm Saami, +P, +P+, and Nato. The Nato load is a 124 grain bullet at 1350 fps. It is also loaded to 42,000 PSI if I remember correctly. No American Manufacturer will load to that pressure. The top pressure loaded in the USA is +P+ which is plenty hot and will get the bullet out plenty fast enough. If the 9mm was available with Nato pressure loadings and a modern hollowpoint it would be my personal favorite. As it is I just carry the Corbon 115 gr but I feel real good about that round doing its part if I do mine.

360 posted on 05/17/2005 12:40:15 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: Nov3
I don't know anything about 9 millimeter loads that the U.S. military uses (I tend to ignore the handguns that our armed forces use and I study a lot about rifles).

A word of advice about hot powder +P loads in your 9 x 19 handgun: some handguns are not built for +P loads (consult your user's manual for your handgun).

With handgun loads your hollowpoint will not expand about 50% of the time. This is what they have found in numerous shootings where handguns have been used as handgun bullet velocites are so low.

Go to the website below and read the information there for more information on handgun stopping power.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm


361 posted on 05/17/2005 4:26:17 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

Bookmarked!


362 posted on 05/17/2005 4:35:21 PM PDT by Doomonyou (I don't think so, Scooter...)
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Comment #363 Removed by Moderator

To: ExSoldier; Mr. Mojo; Shooter 2.5; 2nd_Amendment_Defender

http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/magsafeammo/page3.html

Magsafe is a proven one shot stopper from the 9mm. I can't imagine what it would do in a .357 or a .45 ACP.


364 posted on 05/17/2005 5:20:07 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
First modern 9's like the glock and sig will safely handle the Nato loads which make the +P (and +P+ for that matter) look mild.

Second as far as expansion goes what you say is true. That is why every one of my posts specifies a MODERN +P or +P+ hollow point. The modern bullets do expand reliably even when fired through multiple layers of denim or leather.

Third as far as wounding characteristics go, it is all fine and good that he can write a scholarly article. Fackler also does a good job of running his mouth and produces articles and equations that show that a 45 ball round is more effective than a modern 9mm hollowpoint. (For that matter his equations have shown that 124 or 147 gr 9mm Nato ball are both much more effective than a modern 115gr 9mm hollow point) Both are manifestly bull$#!T.

If you want real wounding characteristics go to the actual shootings. The actual shootings show a different reality.

The modern 230 gr 45 hollow point is an excellent round but it is only slightly more effective than a modern 9mm hollow point in ACTUAL shootings. The actual shootings are what counts.

You can post these articles until you are blue in the face. I love Jeff Cooper more than the next guy and his opinions were correct WHEN he formed them. Now they are patently WRONG. Technology has marched on and is producing more effective rounds every year. BTW the MODERN 45 rounds are looking more and more like 9mm in their loadings (though I would carry the 230 if I carried my 45).

365 posted on 05/18/2005 8:07:20 AM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

Amend Fackler to say Hatcher


366 posted on 05/18/2005 8:29:21 AM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
In the 45ACP (when not using MagSafe) I prefer using 185gr Hydra-Shok's or 185gr Cor-Bon +P's.

In the 40S&W (again when not using MagSafe) I prefer the 165gr or 135 gr Hydra-Shok or the 165 gr Speer Gold Dot. At the ned of June, my wife and I will be driving out to Texas from our home in Miami, FL to pick up a Newfoundland pup (an adoption, lol). I'll be carrying my Glock M27 40S&W. For concealabilty and comfort, I'll have the short 9rd mag in the gun stoked with MagSafe. My backups will be Hi-Cap M22 or M23 mags with the A & G grip extenders so as to provide a seamless grip A & G

I figure that I'll be capable of launching 72 rounds before I even have to worry about topping off mags (wife's job) from the two 50rd boxes of backup ammo. Thanks be to Governor Jeb Bush for all the reciprocity agreements that will allow me to be "legal" for the entire trip.

367 posted on 05/18/2005 12:14:40 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Nov3
I have not read anything on the 9 millimeter being an extremely effective handgun cartridge.

What I do know is our troops would much rather carry .45 ACP handguns rather than the M-9. Many police departments have taken the .40 S&W over the 9 x 19.

You will never convince me that a 9 x 19 handgun is more effective in stopping power than a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP handgun.

Granted there are a few advantages to the 9 x 19 cartridge. You can generally get a smaller more concealable handgun for carry and ammo is quite common. Carry what you want though. In the end it's your preference.

368 posted on 05/18/2005 12:30:46 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Most of the people I know who talk a bunch of big bore trash can't hit anything with a handgun anyway. It won't make up for not shooting well. (I know you have been through Gunsite so that doesn't apply to you!) Again if a modern +P 9mm hollowpoint in the chest won't stop someone a 45 wouldn't either.

We can agree on one thing nobody wants to carry a full size Baretta M-9, it is a clunky POS. If my choice was a 1911 or that I would be carrying a 1911 especially since I would be using ball ammo. As far as that is concerned I would lose the pistol and carry a few more 30 round mags if I was in the military.

369 posted on 05/18/2005 1:11:56 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: Mat_Helm

For myself, the smoothest shooting and most accurate without a brace is the 454 Super Redhawk shooting the 45 long colt round. I also own the H&K USP in the 45 Cal and it is super accurate for a short barrel 45 automatic. Takes a smooth trigger pull to keep it on target though.


370 posted on 05/18/2005 1:30:44 PM PDT by FireTrack
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Probably all for the better anyway. Frangible ammo such as Magsafe has become somewhat of a joke within the terminal ballistics community.

A good source of information for proper ammo selection can be found at www.tacticalforums.com.
371 posted on 05/18/2005 2:30:33 PM PDT by kildak
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

I BELEIVE I HAVE DEVELOPED THE MOST POWERFUL AUTO PISTOL CARTRIDGE EVER, IT IS VERY FAST AND ACCURATE, IT WILL PENETRATE 3/16" STEEL AT 25YDS AND WILL HOLD LESS THAN 1" ACCURCY AND IT WILL REACH 2600+ FPS MUZZEL VEL, A HAND GUN CLOSEING THE VELOCITY GAP BETWEEN RIFLE AND PISTOL.


372 posted on 08/26/2006 2:35:25 PM PDT by sflapper
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To: Squantos

Hi Squantos. Why stainless? Isn't that really shiny in the daylight? It's humorous how everybody has their own opinions on so many aspects of firearms. Really keeps everything interesting. Take care.


373 posted on 03/07/2007 4:48:46 AM PST by MikeyCC (Always assume your guest is tired, cold, and hungry, and act accordingly.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

Thanks for the info


374 posted on 03/07/2007 4:50:43 AM PST by bmwcyle (It is time to stop the left at the wall.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Good advice, I prefer the 1911 but I have never noticed that the hollow point expanded significantly when used on most subjects (as the chart seems to indicate). I postulated that it was the relatively slow bullet speed.

If i could presume to add to your advice - practice, practice, practice - there IS NO substitute.

375 posted on 03/07/2007 5:01:16 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (So many geeks, so few circuses.)
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To: Hootowl
Two in the chest, one in the head, shoot that F'er till he's dead.
376 posted on 03/07/2007 5:02:03 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (So many geeks, so few circuses.)
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To: quidnunc
I can tell you from first hand experience the following. I shot a guy in VN at about 75 yards with three rounds of 5.56 FMJ. He kept coming, F'er was going to get him a gringo that day, M16 empty I drew my 1911 with some "special" (very hot) ammo my Uncle had hand loaded for me. Hit him once in the upper chest and dropped him like he had been hit with a club. When the smoke cleared we checked the body; 5.56mm clean through and through the belly area. 45 completely blew up a lung and destroyed the shoulder. That shot was at about 60 feet.

Many years later I shot a perp in a store hold up with a 44 mag. That was not very pretty either but it stopped him. He had killed the clerk, a friend of mine for $25 and an arm load of smokes.

Now all that said I am a firm believer in shot placement with any shot. Of course you don't always get that option.

377 posted on 03/07/2007 5:11:10 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (So many geeks, so few circuses.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge

The theoretical stopping power rises in inverse proportion to the ability of the average, minimally trained shooter to hit the target.

Four hits with a .22 are better than four misses with a .44.

378 posted on 03/07/2007 5:13:51 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
What I do know is our troops would much rather carry .45 ACP handguns rather than the M-9. Many police departments have taken the .40 S&W over the 9 x 19.

Soldiers, marines, and policemen are not representative of the general population.

379 posted on 03/07/2007 5:28:58 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: Jim Noble
"Soldiers, marines and policemen are not representative of the general population."? You are kidding right? You typed that facetiously right? I will assure you that 99.9% of all weapons advancements via ballistically or in terms of delivery systems ... have been the result of feedback from solidiers, marines and policemen over the centuries. Your statement could not be any more incorrect imho - not counting the obvious lessening of the value of our soliders, marines and policemen contained within your premise Jim.
380 posted on 04/18/2007 5:34:41 PM PDT by JRPerry
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To: JRPerry
Soldiers, marines, and policemen are not representative.

First, they are trained. Secondly, they practice with their weapons. Third, they are stronger, younger, and more coordinated than average. Fourth, they are indoctrinated with concepts of duty, honor, country, and mission.

And so on...

381 posted on 04/18/2007 5:48:14 PM PDT by Jim Noble (But that's why they play the games)
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To: JRPerry
Soldiers, marines, and policemen are not representative.

First, they are trained. Secondly, they practice with their weapons. Third, they are stronger, younger, and more coordinated than average. Fourth, they are indoctrinated with concepts of duty, honor, country, and mission.

And so on...

382 posted on 04/18/2007 5:48:30 PM PDT by Jim Noble (But that's why they play the games)
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To: Hootowl

Rule of thumb:

One to the head, two to the chest.

That said, I do not trust a 9mm auto as much as I trust a 1911 .45.

If push comes to shove, give me the .45.


383 posted on 04/18/2007 5:53:56 PM PDT by alarm rider (Why should I not vote my conscience?)
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To: ez

For about the same amount of money and a lot more stopping power why not go with a .45 ACP such as a Springfield XD 45 or maybe a Glock Model 21? You don’t want to have to depend on a smaller piece of lead when it really counts. Not only does the .45 make bigger holes, it also hits like Mark McGuire with a baseball bat. It’s hard for the bad guy to shoot back even if he’s not quite out yet when he’s been knocked backwards and is completely dissoriented by the impact. If you hit him in the torso he’s most likely going to be knocked completely of his feet by the .45. Smaller faster rounds can go right through and not do a whole lot of immediate dammage. Even though he might be dead he might not know it yet with the smaller faster round.


384 posted on 03/18/2010 3:32:31 AM PDT by thogle
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To: ez

For about the same amount of money and a lot more stopping power why not go with a .45 ACP such as a Springfield XD 45 or maybe a Glock Model 21? You don’t want to have to depend on a smaller piece of lead when it really counts. Not only does the .45 make bigger holes, it also hits like Mark McGuire with a baseball bat. It’s hard for the bad guy to shoot back even if he’s not quite out yet when he’s been knocked backwards and is completely dissoriented by the impact. If you hit him in the torso he’s most likely going to be knocked completely of his feet by the .45. Smaller faster rounds can go right through and not do a whole lot of immediate dammage. Even though he might be dead he might not know it yet with the smaller faster round. Of course none of this matters if you can’t shoot and it would probably be good to shoot first.


385 posted on 03/18/2010 3:32:31 AM PDT by thogle
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

/mark


386 posted on 03/02/2011 12:46:05 AM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: IncPen; Nailbiter; Bartman; Forecaster

ping


387 posted on 03/02/2011 12:55:38 AM PST by Nailbiter
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To: Travis McGee

Will .44 specials work in a .44 magnum?


388 posted on 03/02/2011 1:01:35 AM PST by fella (.He that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough." Pv.28:19')
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To: fella

Yes. Ditto .38 Special in .357 mag.


389 posted on 03/02/2011 8:03:40 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender

I don’t know where you ever got your, “training”, but you NEVER dry-fire ANY weapon.


390 posted on 02/06/2012 9:36:09 PM PST by USMC0351Grunt ("Trained to kill, prepared to die, prefer to live, Semper Fi!")
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To: ez

NOW you’re using your head.


391 posted on 02/06/2012 9:36:25 PM PST by USMC0351Grunt ("Trained to kill, prepared to die, prefer to live, Semper Fi!")
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To: Hootowl

You ever shot a human-bein with a .40 caliber or larger?


392 posted on 02/06/2012 9:36:43 PM PST by USMC0351Grunt ("Trained to kill, prepared to die, prefer to live, Semper Fi!")
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To: Polycarp

I carry a Taurus PT1140 as a conceal carry during the summer and a Glock Model 22, .40 Caliber during the cooler seasons (Jackets and shoulder holster or side holster) and transfer my Taurus to the back-up position.

You want to play ganes carrying anything less than a .40 caliber, then write your obituary now so it looks good and sounds cool in the newspaper.


393 posted on 02/06/2012 9:37:31 PM PST by USMC0351Grunt ("Trained to kill, prepared to die, prefer to live, Semper Fi!")
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To: BenLurkin

Now THIS is an excellent choice! This man is serious about staying alive!


394 posted on 02/06/2012 9:37:49 PM PST by USMC0351Grunt ("Trained to kill, prepared to die, prefer to live, Semper Fi!")
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To: USMC0351Grunt

A .40 caliber will stop even the worst of intentions. I couldn’t agree more.


395 posted on 02/06/2012 9:40:16 PM PST by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)/?)
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To: joesnuffy
I agree that stress fire is VERY different than range fire.
. That being said, in stress situation you will rarely notice any recoil. Muzzle rise will affect your follow up shots but not felt recoil.
396 posted on 12/18/2012 6:07:46 PM PST by TxAg1981
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