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Author Frank Schaeffer to speak on his Orthodox faith
modbee.com ^ | February 22, 2003 @ 05:45:12 AM PST | AMY WHITE

Posted on 02/23/2003 12:27:57 AM PST by Destro

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:55:56 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Frank Schaeffer, son of the late renowned Christian theologian Francis Schaeffer, will be in Modesto next weekend to discuss the Orthodox church and faith. Schaeffer holds a photo of his son, John, a Marine.

Author Frank Schaeffer will speak at Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church in Modesto next Saturday on the historic Orthodox tradition and his conversion to the Orthodox faith.


(Excerpt) Read more at modbee.com ...


TOPICS: Announcements; Culture/Society; Free Republic; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bookreview; easternorthodox; francisschaeffer; frankschaeffer; greekorthodox; orthodox; orthodoxchurch; orthodoxy; russianorthodox; theeasternchurch
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To: Destro
All well and good about Schaeffer and his beliefs about Christianity. As an Orthodox myself however I am frankly disappointed that the Greek Orthodox Archbishop did not offer a proclamation on the Sanctity of Life Day this year or any year. Why doesn't the Orthodox Orthodox speak out against legalized infanticide? If this isn't the moral question for our times what is?

I have asked and I keep getting told that we will bring it up at the Synod meeting bla bla...

One more thing - the Orthodox Church is honoring Sarbanes, senator from Maryland - a Demorat - who vote FOR partial birth abortion. Does that make sense?

51 posted on 02/24/2003 7:49:45 PM PST by eleni121
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To: Mamzelle
Although Francis Schaeffer was moving away from Protestantism at the end of his life, he never converted. In fact, his last book was entitled "The Great Evangelical Disaster". Who know what would've happened had he stayed on this Earth a little longer.

Frank tells a story about how his father, at the end of his life, refused to stay at a Protestant hospital becaue they performed abortions there & instead stayed at the Catholic one across the street because they didn't. And every time he had some strength he'd go across the street & picket the hospital; such an amazing man.
52 posted on 02/24/2003 9:28:01 PM PST by Keme (You're what? Orthodox? Huh? So, you're Jewish?)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Marysecretary
WOW! I'm the luckiest guy at FR today! Another hug, a smootch AND a great, serious, thoughtful, revealing reply.

Thank you both. Mary, I can see from your post that you've had a very different experience than I, that you're very happy and fulfilled where you are, and that, were we to attempt a detailed dialogue about matters of faith, it would be way more detailed than I have time for!! HA! I've got a wife and kids, for crying out loud!

I'll just say this: When I got involved in a few charismatic churches, they were all run, basically, by disaffected, unaffiliated, pie-eyed youth who were idealists looking to rediscover, for themselves, the perfect new testament church. We tapped into all the "hot teachers," and we had truly dynamic worship and all that, but it was a very shallow group. Not much fruit, and definitely, not much fruit. The biggest lack, IMO, was peace.

Well, since the "kingdom of God is not food nor drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the holy ghost," and my "fellowship" didn't seem to have a lot of peace (and I certainly wasn't experiencing much,) I decided the teachings were off. (And my reaction was atypical. Most of my friends in that church, when they found their joy and peace waning, realized they had to pray and fast more. To try harder. That's exhausting, over the long haul!)

To make a long story short, I found a church, the Lutheran Church, Missour Synod, that, first and foremost, introduced me to the distinction between law and gospel. Very liberating. Then, my last pastor was a liturgist, and very "confessional." He taught me the beauty of the ancient faith, with its engaging ritual, solid doctrine and traditions that bring a sense of rhythm to life that I find very satisfying. It's 180 degrees out from the "for the moment" very hip, very "now," very exciting, but very hubristic (in its contempt for tradition) religion I experienced 20 years ago. Liturgical worship is not very exciting in an emotional sense, but intellectual, and in terms of feeding one's soul, I find it VERY exciting!

So, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, sister! It is my hope that my experience will hold out hope of "something more" for people who, unlike you, have been involved in "slap-happy" churches and have grown tired of it, but assume there's nothing better going on "out there" in mainline Christianity. I think there's a lot going on "out here." And I think the Orthodox church is a pretty happenin' place, too!

FReegards.

53 posted on 02/24/2003 9:38:17 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: crazykatz
#47 is very touching, and I can relate to it very much. I moved recently and attend a new church. I think it's pathetic that, when I go to the Lord's table, each Sunday, there is no image of Christ upon which to focus. There's a processional cross (not a crucifix). There's a big stained glass cross (with a bible, a shell, a dove, etc.) but no corpus. There are lots of furnishings and lovely banners, but I ask myself, each week, "Where's Jesus"?

Now, before you fundies get excited, I realize he's in my heart! But so are my mom and dad (RIP). But I like to look at a photo of them once in awhile, "in rememberance." It helps me remember how much I love them.

When I look upon the cross, yes, with Christ on it (yes, yes, he's risen. I know that,) but when I gaze upon his nail scared hands and his riven side and that awful crown of thorns, everything is placed into perspective. Everything. Sunday after Sunday. My whole life revolves around that rememberance, and the rememberance is enhanced by gazing upon that awful scene . . . and reflecting, with my whole being. The experience is just not the same without the crucifix. (I am saving up to buy my church an altar cross!!!)

54 posted on 02/24/2003 9:51:24 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: eleni121
Does that make sense?

Not to me.

55 posted on 02/24/2003 9:53:25 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: TPartyType
Thank you so very much for sharing your experience with all of us! Thank God for you! Hugs!
56 posted on 02/24/2003 10:05:17 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: BibChr
Jealous aren't you ? Too bad bub!
57 posted on 02/24/2003 10:15:40 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: eleni121
Abortion is an anathema to the Orthodox as it is to Catholics and most Protestant groups.

ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS AND ABORTION

In addition Greeks have been against abortion even during pagan times as enshrined in Hippocrates' Hippocratic Oath

The father of medicine as envisioned by a Byzantine artist.

58 posted on 02/24/2003 10:19:31 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: TPartyType
bump
59 posted on 02/24/2003 10:22:07 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: eleni121
I have this bit of information for you concerning the Orthodox Churches in the U.S. and the pro-life cause. Recently, with the 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the Family Research Council, along with other influential groups and individuals active in the pro-life cause, compiled a statement that is titled "Building a Culture of Life." It is printed in their document Building a Culture of Life: 30 Years After Roe v. Wade. Among the signatories to this document (along with promenient Catholics and Protestants) are the following Orthodox clergy:

His Eminence Metropolitan Christopher - President, Episcopal Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada

Father Stanley S. Harakas - Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology, Emeritus, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Church School of Theology

The Most Blessed Herman - Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada, Primate, Orthodox Church in America

Metropolitan Iakovos of Krinis - Diocese of Chicago, Greek Orthodox Church of America

Metropolitan Maximos of Aenos - Bishop of Pittsburgh, Greek Orthodox Church of America

Subdeacon John Protopapas of Orthodox Christians for Life

Father Patrick Henry Reardon - Archpriest of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, Pastor of All Saints Church, Chicago, Illinois

Father Alexander F.C. Webster - St. Mary Orthodox Church, Falls Church, Virginia

I know Metropolitan Herman was down at the March for Life this year because I saw him being interviewed on EWTN. He actually gave a blessing for the mostly-Catholic audience. Even though the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches have been historically at odds, they have worked together in this noble cause over the past 30 years. It's a good sign for the future of the relations between Christian churches.

60 posted on 02/24/2003 10:42:05 PM PST by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: crazykatz; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Jealous"? Of what?

The likelihood of a man who has been blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Ephesians 1:3ff.), who has been filled full in Christ, Who is the Substance (Colossians 2:10), who holds in his own free hands the God-breathed, complete, and fully-adequate Word of God (2 Timothy 3:15-17), being "jealous" of anyone who settles for a big, glittery sham and delusion...

...is about the same as the likelihood of a man with a 32 ounce steam being "jealous" of a bum munching on a plastic carrot.

Dan
What Is Biblical Christianity?

61 posted on 02/25/2003 6:46:06 AM PST by BibChr ("You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" [Mark 7:8])
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To: BibChr
Funny in that in your search for "biblical christianity" you ignore the Orthodoxy those writers of the Gospels set in stone.

Maybe the musings and understandings of the Gospel by Northern Europeans of the last century is good enough for you, but if I do ever go for it I would go for true biblical Christianity, the people whose language was the key of the Gospels. I doubt men 1,800 years removed from the Source would get it more right than a peole whose culture and language was tool Christ's Apostoles chose as the basis for the Gospels.

Protestant "Biblical" Christians think they are recovering something that was lost and dig and dig and go back as far as they can to the original and all they do is uncover their hallowness and Orthodoxy's holiness. At least they learn Greek.

I believe Christ set up One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church...and there is no other.

62 posted on 02/25/2003 7:06:40 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: TPartyType
I'm very glad you found the peace you were looking for in the Lutheran Church. I have friends who are Lutheran and my parents and families were (in Norway). I was brought up Episcopalian because it was the closest thing to the Lutheran church. I know that each person is designed by God in a unique, different way, with different personalities and perspectives so I also believe that they are attracted to different kinds of worship. The main thing is to believe in Jesus as the second person in the Trinity, the Father, and the Holy Spirit and what Jesus did on the cross for mankind. When we have received Him as Lord and Savior, we've done the important thing; then we go on to obedience, holiness, purity and all that other good stuff! Love, Maryxxx
63 posted on 02/25/2003 7:11:01 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Marysecretary
#63 is a great explication of "different strokes for different folks!" HA!

Pax

64 posted on 02/25/2003 7:16:22 AM PST by TPartyType
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Some people actually wait until they know what they're talking about before they open their mouths in public. You might consider trying it, for a switch.

For my part, I've studied NT Greek for about thirty years. I find the NT itself is most helpful, but I also compare notes and usage from the classics through the papyrii and the Greek Christian writers.

I don't believe the Gospel was ever lost. Perhaps you're thinking of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe it was always right there, on the surface of the pages of the Bible.

And as far as all this chatter about 1800 years later and all... maybe you're thinking of the various Ortho's or Roman Catholics. They're great believers in (=insisters on) playing "telephone" with the Bible.

Not Christians, though. We don't rely on men writing 1800 years later, or 1500 years later... or 1000, or 500, or even 100 years later.

We rely directly on God's Word itself. Drives cultists and the otherwise enslaved absolutely nuts (as predicted; Galatians 4:29), but that's what being a Christian is: standing faithfully on the Word of God Himself. It'll steer you straight TO Christ, and PAST silly (at best) diversions like trying to chat up dead people, and all -- to say nothing of the time and energy that goes into trying to spin and "defend" the silly practices.

I cannot recommend it to you too highly.

Dan

65 posted on 02/25/2003 7:27:47 AM PST by BibChr ("You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" [Mark 7:8])
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To: BibChr
The Orthodox rely only on what was written up front, not latter day interpretations. Who would be in a better position to know?

"Now people look at Orthodox and think it is just one more denomination," Schaeffer said. "But I look at it as unbroken continuity

From the laying of hands from the Apostles to their chosen bishops to the New Testament - unbroken continuity.

66 posted on 02/25/2003 8:08:37 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
The Orthodox rely only on what was written up front, not latter day interpretations. Who would be in a better position to know?

Who?

How about...anyone willing to let the Bible speak for itself, rather than shackling himself to the accumulated errors of centuries of fallible men?

For that softball, I owe you a nice latte' or something if we ever meet. (Gyro?) For now... thanks!

Dan

67 posted on 02/25/2003 8:20:14 AM PST by BibChr (Don't settle for four-hundred-and-thirty-seventh-hand when you can get the Real Deal!)
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To: TPartyType
Is that good or bad? I couldn't tell. M
68 posted on 02/25/2003 8:53:11 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Pining_4_TX
"You are playing with words here. One should never venerate or honor an object. All honor, veneration, glory, and worship belong to God alone. Icons are a violation of the second commandment."

I honor the American flag, and feel no shame in calling it Old Glory. I honor the Texas flag. I honor my mother and father (as God himself commands). I honor the men and women who founded this great country, and I also honor and venerate the martyrs of the Orthodox Church for the example they set. I think it is not Destro playing with words. I think it is you.
69 posted on 02/25/2003 8:58:49 AM PST by No Truce With Kings (The opinions expressed are mine! Mine! MINE! All Mine!)
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To: BibChr
Christ let the founders of the Church continue in error? Until the 20th century someone re-learned to re-read the Greek the Orthodox Church still speaks so they can re-understand the Gospels as they really are?

Those of today know more than the founding fathers who knew and where taught by the Apostles or new men who were taught by the Apsotles and had it explained to them first hand what the Gospels said?

Is the Nicean Creed still valid for this group you champion?

70 posted on 02/25/2003 9:03:40 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: The_Reader_David; George W. Bush
We are seeing a handful every few months from the Rc in our parish, already large and growing with lots of babies too.
71 posted on 02/25/2003 1:12:39 PM PST by MarMema
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To: BibChr
Just wait a few hundred years and see how beautiful is the church body created by men who presume they can read the Bible for itself without the "shackles" of the work of past biblical scholars, theologians and established practice. You and your ilk are bound to accumulate centuries of your own errors, and worse ones, I suspect, because you have the hubris to reject the wisdom of past ages. I should think a conservtive would know better.
72 posted on 02/25/2003 4:18:59 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Marysecretary
I was just pointing out that the last sentence of your #39 says, pretty much the same as the body of #63, only #63 is stated with a lot more elegance!
73 posted on 02/25/2003 4:29:10 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Destro
This is great stuff, very inspiring, even for a lapsed Orthodox Christian like me. The faith of converts to Orthodoxy is a sight to behold. They are so informed and passionate. It puts things into perspective. Thanks for posting!
74 posted on 02/25/2003 4:47:11 PM PST by drew
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To: TPartyType; OrthodoxPresbyterian
...men who presume they can read the Bible for itself....

Ah, yes. We Christians call these sorts "believers." Why? They believe God when He says that His word is for them, and not for some specialized class (cf. Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; etc. ad inf.). They can't be classed with those so "wise" that they know better than God, and take it out of the hands of His intended recipients, reserving it to their selected shapers and molders.

... without the "shackles" of the work of past biblical scholars, theologians and established practice.

This is so hard for a slave to understand.

I am free to consider seriously all who have labored over the Word, and to benefit from their wisdom. I am simply not shackled by their mistakes! God, speaking to His people through His word (see above), remains the judge.

So when an august individual like Chrysostom or Calvin illuminates a passage, I benefit from the light. But when they stray (as both do), and am not shackled to repeat their mistakes.

If I did, I might end up being chained to silly and anti-God practices like chasing after dead people; or to heresies, like adding my works to Christ's blood to win salvation.

You and your ilk are bound to accumulate centuries of your own errors, and worse ones, I suspect, because you have the hubris to reject the wisdom of past ages.

Yes I will, but that won't be the cause. The cause will be my own fallibility. That is why it is so wonderful that God never chained anyone to my interpretations, any more than He did to Justin Martyr's nor Papias'.

I should think a conservtive would know better

Maybe, maybe not. But a Christian knows to believe God. Slaves of Greece or Rome may do a 2 Timothy 3:5/Titus 1:16 on such passages as 2 Timothy 3:15-17, but a Christian reads it, studies it, understands it, praises God for it, and lives it.

You know, nothing external to you keeps you from knowing the freedom of life in Christ, as a child of God rather than the slave of a sect (Galatians 3:23-29). What Christ says to all, He says to you as well:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light"
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV)
Nothing compares with the excellency of knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. Pride, stubbornness, tradition -- all rubble, compared to that knowledge (Philippians 3:7-11).

Dan
How Can I Know God?

75 posted on 02/25/2003 6:18:05 PM PST by BibChr ("If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" [John 8:31])
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To: TPartyType; BibChr
This too is not new to Orthodoxy, TPartyType--This kind of theology resembles the Paulican heresy of old.
76 posted on 02/25/2003 6:24:15 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: All
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77 posted on 02/25/2003 6:25:38 PM PST by Bob J (Join the FR Network! Educate, Motivate, Activate!)
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To: BibChr; TPartyType; OrthodoxPresbyterian
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11583b.htm

Paulicians

Excerpts: Jesus' work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John, iv, 10. But many Paulicians, nevertheless, let their children be baptized by the Catholic clergy. They honoured not the Cross, but only the book of the Gospel. They were Iconoclasts, rejecting all pictures. Their Bible was a fragmentary New Testament. They rejected St. Peter's epistles because he had denied Christ. They referred always to the "Gospel and Apostle", apparently only St Luke and St. Paul; though they quoted other Gospels in controversy.

The whole ecclesiastical hierarchy is bad, as also all Sacraments and ritual. They had a special aversion to monks. Under the apostles and prophets were "fellow-workers" (synechdemoi) who formed a council, and "notaries" (notarioi), who looked after the holy books and kept order at meetings. Their conventicles were called, not churches, but "prayer-houses" (proseuchai). Harnack sums them up as "dualistic Puritans and Individualists and as "an anti-hierarchic Christianity built up on the Gospel, and Apostle, with emphatic rejection of Catholic Christianity" (Dogmengeschichte, II 528).

Since Gibbon the Paulicians have often been described as a survival of early and pure Christianity, godly folk who clung to the Gospel, rejecting later superstitions, who were grossly calumniated by their opponents. Conybeare (op. cit. ) thinks they were a continuation of the Adoptionists. Dr. Adeney calls them "in many respects Protestants before Protestantism" (The Greek and Eastern Churches, 219). This idea accounts for the fact that the sect has met among modern writers with more interest and certainly more sympathy than it deserves.

78 posted on 02/25/2003 6:39:14 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Pyro7480
I appreciate your posting on the Orthodox position against abortion. I have been aware of individual bishops and others who have made public proclamations. I sure hope we can get the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of North and South America to do the same.
79 posted on 02/25/2003 6:57:40 PM PST by eleni121
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To: Destro
Thanks for the awesome posting about abortion and the Orthodox church. As an Orthodox (born and bred) I am aware of the traditions and the beliefs of the church. My questions remains however: Why does the Church honor men like Sarbanes? Why doesn't the Archbishop (GO) make a proclamations like others do? Why doesn't the church take public important and moral Christian stands like some Protestants do - Falwell, etc? Why is the Patriarch more insterested in saving the earth than saving souls? When I ask these questions of the church hierarchy I get smiles and referrals but no answers.
80 posted on 02/25/2003 7:07:14 PM PST by eleni121
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To: eleni121
The church, unlike Islam does not link the state and the faith. The Orthodox wish to convert but not control (as do other Christian faiths as well). Catholics who also do not get this fine point wonder why the Catholic Church would invite pro-abortion Catholics like Mario Cuomo to functions and not out right ban them, etc.,

The Christian Church is not a political party and seeks to lead through example and persuasion.

81 posted on 02/25/2003 7:19:26 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian; TPartyType
Thank you, very illustrative. So to sum up, a quick count:

My one posting: apposite Scriptures cited = eleven

Your two responses: apposite refutational Scriptures cited = zero

Sometimes the offhanded is the most revealing, isn't it? But we're just living our two mutually exclusive religions, aren't we? God-centered Biblical Christianity on the one hand, man-centered tradition-bound sectarianism in your case.

Your living illustration showed more than ten posts from me could have done. Thank you.

Dan

82 posted on 02/25/2003 7:39:14 PM PST by BibChr ("If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" [John 8:31])
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To: Destro
I love Francis Schaeffer but I wish he'd homeschooled his son.
83 posted on 02/25/2003 7:53:17 PM PST by Theophilus
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To: BibChr
May I ask if you follow the Nicean Creed?
84 posted on 02/25/2003 7:58:57 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Theophilus
The result would have been the same.
85 posted on 02/25/2003 8:00:14 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
The Christian Church is not a political party and seeks to lead through example and persuasion.

Understood, but the moral relativism and decay in our society in these times demands more than acquiescence and reliance on quiet diplomacy.

86 posted on 02/26/2003 5:53:03 AM PST by eleni121
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To: Destro
May I ask if you follow the Nicean Creed?

"Follow" it? In the sense that I accept it as an authority, independent of and equal to the word of God? Certainly not.

Dan

87 posted on 02/26/2003 6:31:44 AM PST by BibChr ("If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" [John 8:31 -- you *can* read this, right?])
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To: TPartyType
Oh, thank you. I'm a little dense at times. Bless you.
88 posted on 02/26/2003 6:48:38 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: BibChr; Destro
bibchr..... Satan can quote Scripture.... just like you do.

You just spout off in PRIDE, always in pride and vanity...always.

I see you on threads running down EVERYBODY else's Faith in Jesus Christ right on down to the dirt....you are a mean spirited man.

NOBODY here put you in charge of ANYTHING... much less ALL OF CHRISTIANITY!!

You need to get humble and get humble real quick!

I wouldn't trust you to interpret the embossing on toilet paper.

Your vanity and meaness are the reasons why I would never trust you. You..."HAVE NOT LOVE....".

"Tinkling brass"... yes, that sound is you ...definitely!

Frank Schaeffer is a wonderful man, Christian believer and a good father of a US Marine. Why are you on this thread running down the FAITH of a man who is so good?

Never mind answering... I already know....green eyed jealousy is evident in your postings. You try to disguise it by quoting scriptures...

HA! YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS OF FRANK SCHAEFFER because he got the attention that YOU would like to have.

89 posted on 02/26/2003 8:14:52 AM PST by crazykatz
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To: BibChr
I bring it up for a reason -- the reason the Nicean creed came about was because "lay men" and those who set themselves up as "Bishops" in churches (Ecclesia is Greek for community) would read the Bible and come up with their own spin on what the Word was (Logos) and what that relation of the Word is with God in relation to the Holy Spirt, etc. This led to heresy after heresy, the biggest one being Arianisim which influences Islam.

Orthodoxy is simply the right interpretation of the Gospels based on the scholarship of Bishops who were direct descendents of Churches founded by the Apostles and their first converts.

The Nicean Creed is the Readers Digest for the faithful - a study guide to the owner's manual that is the Bible.

90 posted on 02/26/2003 8:29:07 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I know that God knows all contingencies but knows nothing contingently and that God wills whatsoever comes to pass. But how does God find glory in the apostasy of his good servant's son?
91 posted on 02/26/2003 8:57:47 AM PST by Theophilus
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To: Theophilus
"Now people look at Orthodox and think it is just one more denomination," Schaeffer said. "But I look at it as unbroken continuity."

His son has joined the original Church that invented the Jesus Fish symbol. Protestants need to translate the Gospels. The Greek Orthodox worship in the Gospels' Greek language daily.

The Apostles founded NO protestant churches.

92 posted on 02/26/2003 9:20:41 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: TPartyType
I know exactly what you mean. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church. Then I was introduced to a PCA church in college where the minister had been raised Episcopalian. His influence was seen in a stronger liturgy than you usually see in a presbyterian church. I miss it a lot now. I don't think I could go Orthodox, but I miss that sense of worship I experienced at church in college.
93 posted on 02/26/2003 9:28:27 AM PST by twigs
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To: Destro
The Icthus, greek and founders notwithstanding, I'm only interested in the truth of the gospel.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

I do wish I knew the original greek.

94 posted on 02/26/2003 9:30:06 AM PST by Theophilus
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To: Theophilus
So the people in whose language the Gospel was written in and who were among the first Gentiles converted to Christianity, verily who actually coined the term "Christianos" as the defining name for the faith had it all wrong until Northern Europeans came along and learned to read Greek around the 17th century onwards?

May I ask when the "Christian" movement went into Apostacy in your faith and when was it corrected?

95 posted on 02/26/2003 9:43:11 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: crazykatz
I'm totally happy for honest readers to compare our focii:

You: personalities, Satan, personalities, personalities, personalities (based on blind mind-reading)

Me: Christ, God, God's Word, God's truth (laid out for any and all to see for himself)

Christ's invitation goes out to you, too. Pretend I'm dead; I'm of no consequence. But listen to Christ. You've nothing to lose but chains and deception, and everything to gain!

Christ says to you:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light"
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV)

Dan
96 posted on 02/26/2003 11:17:44 AM PST by BibChr (Sects enslave and degrade; Christ frees and glorifies)
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
There's a lot to be said for the Nicene Creed, in its place: as a manmade summary of Bible teaching.

But when I have folks over for dinner, I don't pass out pictures of food, or read stories of others who've had delectable feasts in the past. I cook up the real thing, and lay it out.

And so, as I deal with you, I deal with all. I lay out the Word of God, before your heart, mind and conscience. What you do with it is a matter that will bring God's judgment or blessing.

There's a definite place for respectful listening to wiser brothers, whether they lived in 400 AD or 2003 AD. But it's no substitute for laying out the Word of God. After all, Scripture is the fully adequate revelation of the person, ways, and will of God. The sinner finds the way of salvation through Scripture (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 2: 1-3). The believer is made fruitful (Psalm 1:2, 3) and successful in the will of God (Joshua 1:8), warned and kept from sin (Psalms 19:11; 119:9,11), made holy (John 17:17), given wisdom (Psalm 9:7) and freeing knowledge of the truth (John 8: 31, 32), taught the fear of God (Psalm 119:38), counseled (Psalm 119:24), taught, reproved, corrected, and disciplined in the way righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16) by Scripture.

Recollections of others' study of Scripture won't do any of that. It is Scripture itself. That is why God, as I showed you earlier, gave it to His children at large — not to a separate caste.

Dan
97 posted on 02/26/2003 11:23:16 AM PST by BibChr (Sects enslave and degrade; Christ frees and glorifies)
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To: cookcounty
How is it that a form of christianity that considers itself in "original" form squares the obsession with images (icons) in worship

You make a good point. It seems that those who are more interested in a feeling based emotional experience in worship, tend to be attracted by the grand old churches with their emphasis on architecture, statues, and ritualistic practices. My observation is, generally speaking, that people who are attracted to this kind of assembly are apt to listen to and believe what the church dictates as doctrine rather than read and study the bible for themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to guide them.

At the same time there are Protestent churches who claim uninterupted unity with the New Testament Church practices that came to be at Pentecost. These churches emphasize Christ as the head of the church and that the church is the people that make up the body and not a building where one goes to worship. The only ritual that they practice is the Lord's Supper where they break bread and drink wine as Jesus commanded "do this in rememberance of me". These churches are void of crucifixes and statues and believe these things to be graven images or idols which divert peoples attention from the main focus of the assembly, which is to worship and glorify Christ.

98 posted on 02/26/2003 11:59:03 AM PST by slimer
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To: BibChr; The_Reader_David
Thank God those Orthodox fathers sat down and TOLD Christians what read (through the divine guidence of the Holy Spirit I am sure) or you wuld have been reading the apocrypha and thinking it was authentic too.
99 posted on 02/26/2003 12:20:04 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Thank God those Orthodox fathers sat down and TOLD Christians what [sic; add "to"?] read (through the divine guidence of the Holy Spirit I am sure) or you wuld [sic] have been reading the apocrypha and thinking it was authentic too

Well, now we're guessing, aren't we? And why, with such realities to occupy us?

I'm grateful that they were Biblical in so many things. I enjoy Chrysostom, in Greek as well as English. I think that Chalcedon contains a marvelous confession of what the Bible teaches about Jesus.

But neither is the Word of God! God put that Word in the hands of each of His children, as I've shown you; it is our birthright. Nobody will take it from us.

But to carry on your thought: do you think "the Orthodox fathers" gave us Jesus, too? Because they made a splendid statement of Biblical Christology, in your mind does that mean that, in spite of the clear teaching of the Word of God (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13, etc. etc.) we'd all be saying He was a mere creature, if not for them? In your mind, when I say "Look! A beautiful sunrise!", am I creating the sunrise, and do I now own it, so that others have to report to me to enjoy it secondhand?

Dan

100 posted on 02/26/2003 12:27:51 PM PST by BibChr (Sects enslave and degrade; Christ frees and glorifies)
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