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Author Frank Schaeffer to speak on his Orthodox faith
modbee.com ^ | February 22, 2003 @ 05:45:12 AM PST | AMY WHITE

Posted on 02/23/2003 12:27:57 AM PST by Destro

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:55:56 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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Keeping Faith: A Father-Son Story About Love and the United States Marine Corps by John Schaeffer, Frank Schaeffer

Dancing Alone: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion by Frank Schaeffer

1 posted on 02/23/2003 12:27:57 AM PST by Destro
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To: Stavka2; crazykatz; wildandcrazyrussian; MarMema; The_Reader_David
bump
2 posted on 02/23/2003 12:34:02 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I have heard that Prostants converting to Orthodoxy is a big trend now in theological circles. People fed up with how liberal mainline protestants have become, but cannot quite bring themselves to become Catholic, become Orthodox.

It's a strange country we live in.

3 posted on 02/23/2003 12:39:51 AM PST by Boston Capitalist
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To: Boston Capitalist
Coming Home: Why Protestant Clergy Are Becoming Orthodox by Peter E. Gillquist (Editor)
4 posted on 02/23/2003 12:44:57 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Boston Capitalist
I is not that they can't bring themselves to become Catholic, it is that the local Catholic churches are hotbeds of leftist, Marxist, feminist theology. Atleast that is my experience.
5 posted on 02/23/2003 7:29:09 AM PST by mlmr
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To: xzins; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; InvisibleChurch; Alamo-Girl
FYI.............ping!
6 posted on 02/23/2003 12:01:54 PM PST by maestro
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To: Destro
Having heard Frank (I still want to call him Franky) speak on several occasions, I'm sure this will be an interesting and though-provoking talk. He's long been a strong voice for the pro-life viewpoint, whether as a Presbyterian or Orthodox Christian. I would encourage all to have their church rent his film series "Whatever Happened to the Human Race?"
7 posted on 02/23/2003 12:15:32 PM PST by mountaineer
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To: mlmr
it is that the local Catholic churches are hotbeds of leftist, Marxist, feminist theology.

Alas, this is too often true. They certainly don't have anything to do with the Catholic faith that I knew.

The Orthodox, fortunately, seem to be immune to this at the moment. Hope they stay that way!

8 posted on 02/23/2003 2:42:17 PM PST by livius
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To: Destro; MarMema; RnMomof7
Interesting. I didn't know Schaffer's son went Orthodox. Given what his father preached, I can't be surprised.

The Orthodox have been on a bit of a roll in recent years even though they're not particularly well-known for proselytizing. I think most of their growth is ex-RCs fleeing the Roman church's pedophiles and theological scandals.
9 posted on 02/23/2003 2:45:17 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: Destro
Bravo! I will certainly buy Dancing Alone

I've toyed with the idea of writing my own book to explain to charismatics why traditional, liturgical worship can be more fulfilling than "praise gatherings."

I'd love to use this occasion to have a dialogue with other Christian FReepers about the merits of traditional, patristic, confessional, (small "c") catholic faith and liturgical worship. Anyone interested?

I was raised Methodist, got born again and "spirit-filled" in the '70s, then became a Missouri Synod Lutheran in the 80s. What I have come to appreciate about historical Christianity since is very profound, IMO. I have a suspicion that many FReepers would, by inclination, really appreciate these truths as well, if only they were exposed to them.

I was into Francis Schaeffer when I was a charismatic, and the last book by Franky that I bought was his Christian Manifesto. Really liked it, but I haven't followed him since. Very cool that he's gone Orthodox! Things aren't going well in the Missouri Synod at present (thanks to the libs,) and, when I become frustrated, I toy with the idea of going Orthodox. Their worship practices are simply stunning. Very deep, engaging and, I would bet, fulfilling. Fortunately, my present church is going in the right direction, so I still have a church home where I and my family are fed and fulfilled.

10 posted on 02/23/2003 3:03:29 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Destro
This book was very helpful to me:

It came out about the time I was discovering historic Christianity. Amazon.com shows several other related works, Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church, and Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail: Why Evangelicals Are Attracted to the Liturgical Church.

11 posted on 02/23/2003 3:19:11 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: maestro
Thanks for the heads up!
12 posted on 02/23/2003 3:19:38 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Hey, A-G! Care to have the dialogue I mention in #10 above?
13 posted on 02/23/2003 3:46:11 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: George W. Bush
Actually all but one of the converts to Holy Orthodoxy whom I know personally (and that includes about 100 people all told, one of whom I catechized) converted from Anglicanism or protestantism (including ex- Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and Mennonites).

The one exception is a man who converted from Byzantine Rite Roman Catholicism for the same reason St. Alexis Toth led most of the American uniates of his generation back to the Church: the Latins in North America will not honor the terms of the "Union" of Brest, and attempt to Latinize their Eastern Rite coreligionists.

Have there been a new wave of conversions from the Latin church since the clerical scandals broke? I've not heard anything about it. (Though my priest waggishly suggested to me on an occasion when I spoke about Holy Orthodoxy at one of the Latin parishes in our town that I tell the "Your children are safe with us." I did not take the suggestion.)

14 posted on 02/23/2003 5:10:39 PM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: TPartyType
Some historic Christianity on the web:

THE FALL OF ORTHODOX ENGLAND

15 posted on 02/23/2003 5:34:52 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
This should be interesting. If more people today were to read the writings of Ephraem the Syrian (not Psuedo-Ephraem) they would be surprised at how different, not to say alien, they are when compared to the New Testament. Things took a radical turn after the first century.
16 posted on 02/23/2003 5:45:41 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Destro
"While other faiths have changed over the years, the Orthodox tradition has remained the same, he said..."

I'm not trying to put anyone down, maybe somebody out here can answer this:

How is it that a form of christianity that considers itself in "original" form squares the obsession with images (icons) in worship with the the abhorrance of images in worship common among the Jews who were the "founders of christianity?

17 posted on 02/23/2003 5:51:12 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: Boston Capitalist
I have heard that Prostants converting to Orthodoxy is a big trend now in theological circles. People fed up with how liberal mainline protestants have become, but cannot quite bring themselves to become Catholic, become Orthodox.</> A big trend? I don't think so. The problem is the same as it has always been - the Bible has all one needs - John says "You have no need of teachers with the Holy Spirit". Yet everyone wants a "religion' that makes them feel good - instead of one that communcates the soverignity and holiness of God - which often is "too much" for many. This guy is no exception - as he says himself he fell in love with "the liturgical life of Christianity's most ancient body." As for me, I choose to focus on Christ, not religion, church or "liturgical life".
18 posted on 02/23/2003 5:59:24 PM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: cookcounty
Holy Fathers – On Veneration of Icons

Most Protestants and Roman Catholics do not know that a tremendous doctrinal controversy once raged over the issue of "images'' in the Church. This subject would be well worth 'their investigation, for Protestants are almost Puritanical in their use of sacred art, and Catholics for the most part still make use of statues--neither of which reflects the Apostolic mind of the Church of Christ.

According to Tradition, as most Orthodox Christians know, the first "images" or icons were painted by St. Luke--and some of these (of the Mother of God holding Christ as a Child) survive to this day and are greatly venerated. In addition, the walls of the Roman catacombs provide a dazzling and moving display of sacred art: these fresco-icons depict Christ and the truths of our Faith from Scripture and Tradition; not surprisingly ,they also show the Mother of God holding the Christ-child, certain early martyrs, and various Sacraments (such as the Eucharist, Baptism, etc.). Some of these date from the end of the first century, when certain Apostles and disciples were still living. It is said that it would be possible for a non-Christian to understand many deep things about Christianity simply by walking through these wonderful underground passageways. One modern scholar has made the interesting observation that these early icons show how the first Christians "were accustomed to consider themselves not so much as individuals but rather as members of the Church." (The Roman Catacombs and Their Martyrs).

And so it was for seven centuries until, in the year 726, a vicious destruction of icons broke out, waged by people (including the Emperor) who did not fully understand the doctrine of Christ and the Christian attitude towards created matter. Icons were burned, frescoes were white-washed, and those that defended them were imprisoned and sometimes put to death. This first phase of persecution was stopped by the Empress Irene in 780, but a new attack which began in 815, did not end until another Empress, Theodore, ended the persecutions once and for all, in 843--an event still commemorated on the first Sunday of Lent as "The Triumph of Orthodoxy."

In between these two great persecutions the Seventh (and last) Ecumenical Council was held, at Nicea in 787. This Council of Holy Fathers not only defended the use of icons in churches and homes, but proclaimed the necessity of having them. Why?

One of the arguments used by the icon-haters (iconoclasts) was that images of any kind were forbidden in Scripture and therefore icons are nothing more than idols. They also tended to believe that created matter was in some way evil or defiled, and holy things could not be represented by matter; to be truly spiritual, they believed, a thing should be invisible, or at least non-representational. This idea was actually a subtle attack on the doctrine of Christ's Incarnation, and therefore had to be condemned as a heresy.

One of the greatest defenders of icons, the Holy Father St. John of Damascus (see "Orthodox America," Vol. II, no. 1), gave an eloquent explanation of icons in three treatises called Against Those Who Attack The Divine Images. Very briefly summarized here, St. John expresses the consistent thought of the Church from the time of the Apostles to the Seventh Council.

First he reminded his readers that "no created thing can be adored in place of the Creator." God forbade the making of idols he says, because "it is impossible to make an image of the immeasurable...invisible God." Yet at the same time, "under the Old Covenant God commanded images to be made: first the tabernacle, and then everything in it"--which included images of angels surmounting the Ark. These images were not idols because they were not worshipped.

Secondly, he explains how God can be portrayed now because He took upon Himself flesh and became man. "If we attempted to make an image of the invisible God, this would be sinful indeed," he writes, and "if we made images of men and believed them to be gods...we would be truly impious. We do neither of these things. But we are not mistaken if we make the image of God incarnate, Who was seen on earth in the flesh, associated with men, and in His unspeakable goodness assumed the nature, feeling, form, and color of our flesh."

Thirdly, he shows that we do not worship icons, for worship belongs to God alone, but we venerate or show honor to them, for the image is one thing, and the thing depicted is another," and he cites the veneration given in Scripture to the rod of Aaron, the jar of manna, and holy places like Mt. Sanai or Golgotha.

Finally, this Holy Father answers those that believe matter is in some way "bad." He begins by quoting Scripture: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. It is obvious to everyone that Flesh is matter, and that it is created. I salute matter and I approach it with reverence, and I worship that through which my salvation has come. I honor it, not as God, but because it is full of divine grace and strength."

Icons in our churches and homes are, in the words of St. John "opened books to remind us of God." (indeed ,an icon is a painted image of Christ just as Scripture is a written image of the Saviour.) This is why Timothy (Fr. Kallistos) Ware writes in The Orthodox Church: He who lacks learning or leisure to study works of theology has only to enter a church to see unfolded before him on the walls all the mysteries of the Christian religion. If a pagan asks you to show him your faith, said John of Damascus, take him into church and place before him the icons."

Sincerely yours, Fr. Alexey Young

19 posted on 02/23/2003 6:00:03 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: txzman
A big enough trend to write books about it - see #4
20 posted on 02/23/2003 6:01:31 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Thirdly, he shows that we do not worship icons, for worship belongs to God alone, but we venerate or show honor to them, for the image is one thing, and the thing depicted is another,"

You are playing with words here. One should never venerate or honor an object. All honor, veneration, glory, and worship belong to God alone. Icons are a violation of the second commandment.

21 posted on 02/23/2003 6:08:04 PM PST by Pining_4_TX
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To: Destro
Wow, you type fast!!

Interesting, but you haven't really addressed my question. "According to tradition..." certainly has a pleasant ring to it, but am I to believe that these 1st century Jews were painting Icons and kissing them in worship and IT BROUGHT NO CONTROVERSY OR COMMENT? One would have thought it would have been front and center in the book of Acts, the Jerusalem Council and the Epistles

22 posted on 02/23/2003 6:15:22 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: cookcounty
..and they did away with the need for circumcision and keeping kosher too.
23 posted on 02/23/2003 6:25:25 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Writing books does not make a trend. One can write a book about anything that any idiot will pay money for - just look at any Barnes and Noble.

The difference is one of commitment to Faith. It is there that you rarely (being aware of the real numbers we are talking about) find people jumping from say Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity - not that there aren't good cases for people to do so in seeking God.

However making this kind of thing a "trend" I think trivalises Christinaity in general. As Sara Groves sings "...people trying on truth as if it were a new suit, will it fit around the shoulders, will it fade when I get older?"

The God of the Christian Bible is much greater, far more awesome and supremely "other" than the little boxes man strives so hard to fit Him into.
24 posted on 02/23/2003 6:26:58 PM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: Pining_4_TX
Icons in our churches and homes are, in the words of St. John "opened books to remind us of God." (indeed ,an icon is a painted image of Christ just as Scripture is a written image of the Saviour.)

When the Second Coming happens and Jesus descends from the heavens and I snap his picture and venerate it did I just sin?

I wonder why God asked images of Angels to be made? and for the Arc to be venerated then? "under the Old Covenant God commanded images to be made: first the tabernacle, and then everything in it"--which included images of angels surmounting the Ark. These images were not idols because they were not worshipped.

25 posted on 02/23/2003 6:33:00 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: txzman
Me thinks thou dost protest too much. The issues you have are your own. The book I linked you to seems to address your question. There are others books on the subject I assume so you would do well to read them to see their validity. I am not an authority on the matter.
26 posted on 02/23/2003 6:36:46 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
"..and they did away with the need for circumcision and keeping kosher too."

But this supports my point. These were major controversies in the New Testament, dealt with and argued at length. Why no controversy about images in worship?

27 posted on 02/23/2003 6:49:33 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: Destro
Let me suggest that one could take the approach that "images in worship" was at times more and at other times less important to Jews. After the christians began worshipping Jesus (or icons?), they recoiled and in reaction and became more "anti-image", than they in fact had been at christianity's first appearance.

...I'm not convinced of it, though.

28 posted on 02/23/2003 7:01:26 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: cookcounty
You are wrong since the Jews have always venerated certain types of religous images - veneration is not worship.
29 posted on 02/23/2003 7:13:00 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: cookcounty
You can suggest it but I did not. The bible is full of refrences to images of veneration. The temple was full of them. You just could not make an image of God since God had no image until Jesus was made flesh. You can depict what is depictable in Jewish law.
30 posted on 02/23/2003 7:16:20 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: TPartyType
Thank you so very much for thinking of me!

I’ve never been associated with either the charismatic or the liturgical. My roots are Southern Baptist, my walk with the Lord is about 43 years long and counting, my faith in the Father is built on a personal relationship with Jesus. I abide in Him and He abides in me. My guidance is by the Holy Spirit and the Word.

I rarely read commentaries, non-Scriptural books or listen to sermons. It’s not that I don’t respect the opinions of others, it’s that I respect them all equally. Your opinion means as much to me as the Pope’s. Perhaps it is a Baptist thing, but the little blue haired lady five rows back with her worn out Bible may have a deeper spiritual knowledge than Billy Graham. I’m sure he would agree.

To me, church affiliation is a secondary thing which I have not changed in all these years. I believe that God is not a respecter of denominations, if He were the twelve disciples wouldn’t have been so different.

For all these reasons, I’m confident that I’m not the kind of person you would want for this dialogue.


31 posted on 02/23/2003 7:19:54 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Destro
' The bible is full of refrences to images of veneration. The temple was full of them. You just could not make an image of God since God had no image until Jesus was made flesh. You can depict what is depictable in Jewish law."

Images of what? Humans? I don't think you can cite me a single example, (unless it's Nebuchadnezzar, the proto-Saddam!!).

32 posted on 02/23/2003 7:53:51 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: cookcounty
I feel like i'm getting a bit huffy, I better calm down...Headin for the sack, Destro, Good nite, may God bless you much.
33 posted on 02/23/2003 7:57:04 PM PST by cookcounty
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To: cookcounty
I did write - You just could not make an image of God since God had no image until Jesus was made flesh. You can depict what is depictable in Jewish law.

The Orthodox Church claims decent from the Apolstolic tradition that arose after the crucifiction up until it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. In between there was alternate movements like Arianisim that died out and some even inspired Islam.

34 posted on 02/23/2003 9:17:52 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Point well taken :)

My belief is a very serious matter and at times I stretch when replying to matters of Faith. I will try to lighten up in the future :)
35 posted on 02/23/2003 10:53:44 PM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Well, you certainly said a mouthful, sister! I guess you're right. Go in peace; serve the Lord.
36 posted on 02/23/2003 11:16:44 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: mlmr
Gee and I had thought that it was the Roman Catholic Church which put a stop to lay investiture of bishops (political leaders or bosses choosing bishops) and the Orthodox Church which, rejecting the papacy, had to fall back on the Soviet Politburo and KGB to name the leaders of the Orthodox Church in Russia and its satellites.
37 posted on 02/24/2003 7:12:54 AM PST by BlackElk (Put International ANSWER at Ground Zero too!!!!)
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To: TPartyType
Thank you so much for your understanding! May God bless you in all that you do. Hugs!
38 posted on 02/24/2003 7:42:58 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: TPartyType
Since God inhabits the praises of His people, we praise Him and He visits our services. Our worship and praise has been tremendous lately. God moves in our midst during those special times. I wouldn't go back to a liturgical church for love nor money unless God appeared to me in person and said I had to. Give me the freedom of a balanced, spirit filled charismatic church any time. That's my stand. I know others feel differently and that's good, too. Different strokes for different folks.
39 posted on 02/24/2003 10:02:29 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: George W. Bush
Actually, I thought Francis himself converted before he died.
40 posted on 02/24/2003 10:05:26 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Alamo-Girl
I haven't had a hug from you in the longest time! (*sigh* of contentment . . .)
41 posted on 02/24/2003 11:29:54 AM PST by TPartyType
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To: Marysecretary
Mary, what was your experience in a "liturgical church?" I don't intend this to come off sarcastic, so please don't take it that way, but I think "balanced charismatic church" is an oxymoron. You may have found one, I won't deny that possibility, but in my experience, charismatic churches lack balance, by definition. For one thing, they don't balance law and gospel, for another, they don't balance the demands of the world with the demands of God's Kingdom (tendency toward "super-spirituality") and they don't generally balance the physical, emotional and spiritual dimensions of life very well.

You're right, when it comes down to it, "different strokes for different folks." But I had hoped to dialogue with some people about what each approach has to offer so that, if some fundamentalist FReeper somewhere is searching for a different kind of faith walk I can convince them that organized religion is not all just a bunch of hypocrites who put their dollar in the plate on Sunday and live like the devil the rest of the week. Traditional Christianity has much to offer, and I would think conservatives would find much to their liking "over here."

I bet you'd like to convince some of us to come "over there," wouldn't you? So . . . make your case! :o) FRegards.

42 posted on 02/24/2003 11:44:42 AM PST by TPartyType
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To: TPartyType
I was Episcopalian much of my younger life. I loved singing in the choir, etc. I've been a fundamental Baptist and enjoyed that, too. But when I was exposed to the charismatic movement, WOW. I know that movement wasn't balanced. It was more signs and wonders (which I needed at that time in my life). Now I believe it's more bible based, at least ours is. My pastor is a former Catholic, as is my husband, and he is cautious about being too "charismaniac." Our church was American Baptist before he came and we are now a spirit filled church, although still in the AB conference. It's not emotion or commotion. We have three pastors who hear what God is saying and they preach it and live it. Our worship team is dedicated and they walk the walk--something you have to do when you're in leadership.

We ARE different from a lot of, say, Assembly of God churches because our base is Baptist. But, our old Baptist ladies love the church and I've seen so much growth in them even at their age. One is 92, still drives and bowls, and cooks for her four farmer sons. Amazing lady. I tell her she's my hero. We have a good balance of young and old and many families with good men at the head of them.

It really is a spiritually balanced church (yes, we even sing hymns!). God demands purity and holiness and righteousness and we have sermons that try to move us in that direction. Many of us just finished the Cleansing Stream seminar from Jack Hayford. It has been a fantastic experience for me. We dealt with a lot of spiritual issues that kept us back from serving God the way we should.

We aren't an "emotional" church at all. It's a joyful church, lots of singing, clapping, dancing, banners, and people truly want to be the best they can be. They're very loving and giving. We're mostly just blue collar folks but we can raise money better than anyone I know, through tithing and the giving of gifts. We have a good missionary focus as well and support a number of them. Our christian school is truly a school of excellence in all areas. Our teachers are dedicated and some have been there since it began, around 16 years ago. They don't make much money either.

We're scriptural in our beliefs. My pastor continually seeks for us to read the Word and to obey it.

I don't know if I've answered your questions so if you need to ask more, fire away. Maryxxx
43 posted on 02/24/2003 12:02:36 PM PST by Marysecretary
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To: TPartyType
You're quite right, it's been waaay too long between hugs! So here's another {{{hug}}} and a *smooch* to boot!
44 posted on 02/24/2003 12:10:58 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Destro
When the Second Coming happens and Jesus descends from the heavens and I snap his picture and venerate it did I just sin?

Wait a minute. You're telling me when Christ returns you're going to stand there with a camera? And, yes, if you venerate an object, a photo, while the real God is present, you will definitely be sinning. On the other hand, if you are a believer, at that time sin will be done away with. So, I guess you won't need that camera, eh? :)

45 posted on 02/24/2003 1:57:41 PM PST by Pining_4_TX
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To: Pining_4_TX
veneration is not worship - look it up. You, for instance, venerate the bible. Jews kiss the Torah.
46 posted on 02/24/2003 2:14:53 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro; MarMema
I walk to the icon of the Christ...I kiss the feet of Christ on the icon.... UNTIL SUCH TIME THAT I AM ABLE TO KISS THE ACTUAL FEET OF THE CHRIST IN PERSON. I am reminded of the Savior everytime I see the icon.

When I was a small child my beloved Grandmother, who lived with me, died... all I had to remind me of her was a small picture of her...which as a small child... I would kiss each night before going to sleep...

47 posted on 02/24/2003 7:29:29 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: BlackElk
THIS IS 2003...commies in Russia are outta power... you can come out of the closet now. BOOOO!
48 posted on 02/24/2003 7:35:12 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: cookcounty
How is it that a form of christianity that considers itself in "original" form squares the obsession with images (icons) in worship ...

Maybe they own stock in the Dollar Stores. Ever see the candles they sell there?

49 posted on 02/24/2003 7:42:36 PM PST by PJ-Comix (A Libertarian Is A Conservative With A Water Pipe)
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To: Boston Capitalist; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I have heard that Prostants [sic] converting to Orthodoxy is a big trend now in theological circles. People ...cannot quite bring themselves to become Catholic, become Orthodox. It's a strange country we live in

Strange, indeed, but not unpredicted.

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV

Dan
What Is Biblical Christianity?

50 posted on 02/24/2003 7:43:29 PM PST by BibChr ("You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" [Mark 7:8])
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