Evidence Aquits Clovis People Of Ancient Killings, Archaeologists Say

University Of Washington ^ | 2-25-2003 | Joel Schwartz

[JudyB1938]

I don't think people did it either. On the other hand, I have never been able to get a clear picture in my mind how a meteor or something could be so selective in its kill. Consequently, your theory of a cross-species virus targeting specific animal groups makes sense.

[merak]

That human existence all over the world coincideds with the extinctin of megas fauna should end the debate.

Not really. Correlation and causation are not the same thing. For instance, a sudden influx of money has caused simultaneous booms in construction of both churches and whorehouses in some areas. Believing one to be the cause of the other is an obvious logical fallacy; an unrelated phenomenon is causing both.

[marktwain]

Thank you for so cogently and succintly stating the case. I think anyone who studies the issue will come to the same conclusion. A freind of mine who is a research biologist with the Smithsonian said that amoung his peers there was general agreement of the human intervention causing the extinctions. The only question was that it was not politically correct.

He added an interesting twist: That the man - dog hunting team was unbeatable, especially for mega-fauna.

[vollmond]

Why can't both arguments be true? Populations of the creatures were dwindling due to climate change, and were heading for extinction. Throw some hungry humans into the mix, and the process is sped up by a few hundred years. Basically, all the early humans did was kill off the last of a dwindling species.

[Bernard Marx]

That human existence all over the world coincideds with the extinctin of megas fauna should end the debate.

Well, it's nice to have that one settled once and for all.

[blam]

"I don't think people did it either. On the other hand, I have never been able to get a clear picture in my mind how a meteor or something could be so selective in its kill."

When Toba blew it's top 75,000 years ago, I've seen it quoted a number of times that only 2,000-5,000 humans worldwide survived. The only difference in the statements is how many humans survived. Not once do they mention how many squirrels, grizzlies, buffalo, elephants, etc. survived.

I can believe Vollmond's idea that all humans may have done is polish off already declining populations.

I recently read that for 99% of the time that there have been humans, the average life span was about 18 years, that does not support large populations of humans. But, contrary to that, we do know that some of the oldest human skeletons ever found in the Americas (Spirit Cave Man, Kennewick Man) died in their mid-40's. The women skeletons found (Buhl Woman, Luzia) died before the age of 25.

[blam]

I wonder if something like the below article was a contributor to extinctions?

Fossil Records Show Methane In Seafloor Sediments.

[JudyB1938]

> I can believe Vollmond's idea that all humans may have done is polish off already declining populations. <

I believe that's exactly what happened in the case of dinosaurs. I believe that's where the myths and legends of such creatures as the dragon of St George, the creatures in Beowolf, etc., come from - a remnant population that was still terrifying the countryside and was eventually wiped out.

As to WHY there was only a remnant population, I've never been able to figure out. So we're back full-circle as to what wiped out large critters, but not the smaller ones.

As far as the longevity of early man is concerned, I tend to believe the reason females come into menses so early is to ensure continuation of the human species. Unfortunately, that is in conflict with today's society.

[Sawdring]

Good for you. I was always interested in Dinosaurs and pre-history man. In college I did a paper on the stone tools Neanderthals made and learned a good deal. Although I got a C on it. Anth/Arch wasn't my major.

[blam]

"I believe that's exactly what happened in the case of dinosaurs. I believe that's where the myths and legends of such creatures as the dragon of St George, the creatures in Beowolf, etc., come from - a remnant population that was still terrifying the countryside and was eventually wiped out. "

Nah. I think all the legends of dragons originate from comets. Here is what Geoffrey Of Monmouth (1100ad) said about MERLIN:

"...the star is of great magnitude and brilliance,with a single beam shining from it. At the end of this beam was a ball of fire, spread out in the shape of a dragon. From the dragon's mouth stretched forth two rays of light...the second...split up into seven smaller shafts of light. The star appeared there times, and all who saw it were struck with fear and wonder."

Ever wonder why all dragons are depicted with fire coming out their mouths? This may be the answer

This is probably the comet that split up and showered earth around 540ad and plunged the earth into the Dark Ages. The whole earth experienced a dark age at that time, not just Europe.

[Burkeman1]

Well- early humans wouldn't hunt a grizzly bear unless real hungary - there being more docile and less agressive game far more abundant. And they would be far more calory efficient in hunting- meaning they would hunt the biggest game that would produce the biggest meat yield. Taking on a mamoth or bison with a spear would be impossible. taking it on with ten spears and torches is another matter.

[merak]

Taking on a mamoth or bison with a spear would be impossible. taking it on with ten spears and torches is another matter.

Best possible case, it's still a much harder way to earn a living than simply killing deer and normal game. Aside from everything else, a speared (ten or twenty spears) mammoth would be likely to die 20 miles from where you first speared it. How ya gonna carry it home?

[Burkeman1]

They wouldn't spear it. Mammoth hunts were organized and they followed herds. They killed them by digging trapps- and hearding them off cliffs. They had camps nearby to process the meat and store the excess in storage pits. Hunting smaller and faster game that don't heard in great numbers (like deer) would not have been done and most likely wasn't done until the mega fauna had been hunted out. East Coast modern American Indians didn't rely on deer hunting but had agriculture and practiced slash and burn farming when the first Europeons arrived. Deer hunting was supplimental- not a primary food source.

[Burkeman1]

Plunged the Earth into the dark ages? China in 540 was vibrant. India was likewsie a vibrant culture. Rome and the West had been on a sharp decline for at least a two hundred years prior to 540. Only two hundred years later Islam emerged and created a robust culture that was far more advanced than Europe even whose nobility was mostly illiterate.

[blam]

Read this:

The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

[blam]

Catastrophic Event Preceded Dark Ages

[merak]

They wouldn't spear it. Mammoth hunts were organized and they followed herds. They killed them by digging trapps- and hearding them off cliffs. They had camps nearby to process the meat and store the excess in storage pits. Hunting smaller and faster game that don't heard in great numbers (like deer) would not have been done and most likely wasn't done until the mega fauna had been hunted out.

Sorry, that simply isn't believable. Even bison are significantly easier to kill than a mammoth would be, and there was never a shortage of them. You'd have to come up with some motive for hunting mammoths other than food.

[Burkeman1]

More calories per kill and less expended per kill. Mammoth hunting was a way of life well documented from the Ukraine to central Russian to Siberia and then to the Americas and the extinction from each area follows the human path. Mammoths were dead in Siberia before they died out in the "new world". Bison are faster and offer less meat than a Mammoth. And in an age when you are lucky to live to 30- I think humans were far more attuned to what was easier to kill and what would offer them the most chance for survival. In fact- Mammoth mass hunt sites are older than bison mass hunt sites.

[Burkeman1]

Blam- Mayan civilization was just peaking at 540 and flourished for another 200 to 300 years at least.

[blam]

"Blam- Mayan civilization was just peaking at 540 and flourished for another 200 to 300 years at least."

You didn't read the links I provided.