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Sound Familiar? Understanding Islamic End-Times Beliefs
National Review Online ^ | February 28, 2003 | Rod Dreher

Posted on 02/28/2003 10:11:09 AM PST by John H K

Many Evangelical Christians in America are watching events unfold in the Middle East with great interest, seeing in the preparations for war the possible unfolding of the End-Times scenario predicted in the Bible. A small segment of ultraorthodox Judaism shares an apocalyptic vision, centering around rebuilding the Temple on Mount Zion (where the Islamic Dome of the Rock Shrine and al-Aqsa mosque, now sit). What many Americans don't realize, though, is that Islam also has an eschatological endgame, and that like any Left Behind-reading American, many Muslims see current events as a run-up to their own version of Armageddon.

Islam derives its Last-Days scenario from the Koran, which appeared centuries after the Christian Bible — a fact that for non-Muslims could account for elements of Christian and Jewish prophecy appearing in the Koranic text. Particularly since the mid-1980s, modern interpreters within Islam cast the Arab-Israeli conflict, and more broadly, the conflict between Islam and the West, as part of the cosmic conflict that will mean the end of history and the ultimate triumph of Islam. David Cook, a Rice University scholar of Muslim apocalypticism, sketches below the main themes of Islamic End-Times prophecy, and its ramifications:

Rod Dreher: What are the main beliefs of Islamic eschatology?

David Cook: Referring to Sunni Islam, the principal beliefs are:

1)There are a series of signs or portents previous to the end: moral and social decay, natural and cosmic disasters, and political events that will demonstrate in an incontrovertible manner that the end is about to happen.

2) A tempter, or Antichrist, called the Dajjal will appear and lead the world (with the exception of true Muslims) astray. Almost everyone will be subject to his tribulations, but just before he succeeds in annihilating the Muslims, Jesus will come down from the heavens and kill him.

3) There will be a messianic age, led by either Jesus or another messianic figure called the Mahdi. This latter figure will conquer the entire world and convert everyone to Islam.

4) After the time of the Mahdi, then Gog and Magog [cf. Ezekiel 38, 39; the Islamic version goes by the name Yajuj and Majuj] will invade the world and destroy it. 5) God will bring the world to an end.

Dreher: What sort of Muslim tends to make Islamic End-Times prophecy central to his piety?

Cook: Usually one without much hope in the likelihood that there will be positive changes that will benefit Islam in the immediate future. Such people can oftentimes be attracted by an apocalyptic, destroy-it-all framework or long for the messianic age.

Dreher: How popular is apocalypticism at the present moment among Middle Eastern Muslims?

Cook: In certain areas, quite popular. Radical Muslims (followers of or sympathizers with al Qaeda) have responded to their setbacks during the recent past by publishing large numbers of apocalypses, and mahdi scenarios. Among Palestinians, apocalyptic speculations are also quite prominent. I think that apocalypse as a genre has become less popular in Egypt than it was 3-4 years ago, however, and Algerian radicals no longer use apocalyptic motifs either.

Dreher: If one is reading current events through the lens of contemporary Islamic prophecy, what will one see?

Cook: Many of the apocalyptic wars before the appearance of the Dajjal speak of Christian powers invading Muslim lands. This is the interpretation of the [seemingly imminent] Iraq war. The Dajjal is said to be a Jew, and will blaspheme the area of Jerusalem. Ariel Sharon is usually made to fit that bill. Among radical Muslims, the Mahdi is oftentimes said to be either Mullah Omar or in some cases Osama bin Laden. One of the traditions says: "The Prophet of Allah promised us a raid on India" which is widely cited by Pakistani radicals.

Dreher: Given the central role the Temple Mount plays in the End-Times beliefs of certain fervent Jews, Christians, and Muslims, what kind of trouble might we see there in the event of Middle Eastern war?

Cook: Right now the Temple Mount is effectively closed. It will probably always be the center of scary predictions and fears for Muslims as long as Israel has any power or influence in the region, but I don't foresee any necessary reason why the Temple Mount should be a focus. Most of the material published now speaks of wars and apocalypses on a grand scale; the materials on the Temple Mount were all because of the fear that Israel would rebuild the Temple in the year 2000 (perhaps contributing to the explosion of the second Intifada during Sept. 2000).

Dreher: In the secular West, we tend to discount the role religious visions play in driving or at least shaping world affairs. If you were advising the president on what he could do to avoid provoking unnecessarily Muslims who believe strongly in Islamic prophecy, what would you tell him?

Cook: I would tell him to convert to Islam if I were trying to get him to avoid provoking Muslims who believe strongly in Islamic prophecy. There is probably no other way to avoid provoking them. For them, Bush is easily cast into the role of Pharaoh, the Dajjal (for those who aren't satisfied with Sharon as the one). He is usually referred to as the Hubal (the name of a pre-Islamic idol) of this age, which signifies that there is no chance to mollify this type of people.

Dreher: It doesn't matter whether or not a particular prophetic vision is true; what matters is how it affects the actions of those who do believe it's true. With that in mind, what kind of problems could Islamic apocalypticism pose for the United States as it attempts to foment governmental and society change on Middle Eastern populations through force?

Cook: The basic problem is that our actions could, in the perception of large numbers of the population, coincide with apocalyptic interpretations. If this is the case then it will serve to radicalize people, and raise the stakes that much higher for the apocalyptic groups. If they view the situation (or perhaps I should say if enough of them, or enough of those placed in the right place) as an apocalyptic one, then they will respond accordingly.

Dreher: I guess what I'm getting at with this last question is this: How cooperative will Islamic populations be with the forces of a man, George W. Bush, whom they may see as their version of the Antichrist?

Cook: It depends upon the issue of perceived victory, I think. No one challenges the victory of the U.S. in Afghanistan because it was complete (more or less) and legitimate (or perhaps legitimized by the new Afghan government). If that is perceived to be the case in Iraq, then the result could be exactly the opposite. What should not happen is for something to drag out; in hindsight that was the problem with both the Oslo negotiations and the blockade of Iraq. They were lengthy and people forgot the original reasons why they were the way they were, and then allowed themselves to be swayed by radical and apocalyptic interpretations of events.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alqaeda; apocalypse; clashofcivilizatio; dajjaal; dajjal; davidcook; endtimes; hadith; imamalmahdi; imammahdi; islam; koran; mahdi; majooj; majuj; osamabinladen; prophecy; qiyama; qiyamah; quran; terrorism; twelfthimam; yajooj; yajuj
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1 posted on 02/28/2003 10:11:09 AM PST by John H K
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To: Dajjal
bump
2 posted on 02/28/2003 10:57:10 AM PST by fishtank
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To: BartMan1
informational ping
3 posted on 02/28/2003 11:07:01 AM PST by IncPen (Dick Durbin - before he dicks you (How do you spell 'litmus test' in Spanish?))
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To: Thinkin' Gal; 2sheep; RnMomof7; Havoc; CCWoody; Jeremiah Jr
-
4 posted on 02/28/2003 11:07:12 AM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: *Clash of Civilizatio
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
5 posted on 02/28/2003 11:22:58 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: fishtank
Interesting how Muhammed stole all of his eschatology from the Hebrew/Christian Bible. You will notice that everything they teach is 180 degrees diffrent from the Bible. I.E., black=white, evil=good,lies=truth, etc. This is truly the battle between G-d and Satan. BTW, I was sent this modern rendition of the 23rd Psalm:

Today's 23rd Psalm


The Lord is my peace. I shall not live in anxiety. He puts me under His wing of comfort and calms my spirit within me. He takes all my anxieties on Himself and helps me to focus on Him. Yes, though I walk through a time of grave uncertainties and fierce anxieties, I will not fear, for You are my peace. Your Word and Your presence calm me now. You hold my uncertainties in the palm of Your hand. You soothe my anxious mind - You smooth my wrinkled brow. Surely serenity and trust in You shall fill me all the days of my life. And I shall keep my mind stayed on You forever.


Though the days ahead are uncertain with rumors of war, we have our Mighty God who holds us by our hand and gives us strength for this day. We exalt His name together!

6 posted on 02/28/2003 12:22:52 PM PST by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and the Christians and Jews of Iraq.)
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To: John H K; ganesha; monkeyshine; CCWoody; lockeliberty; drstevej; RnMomof7; Aquinasfan; Polycarp; ...
Ping to perhaps the most important article to appear in the mainstream press in the last 18 months!

A major journalist has finally interviewed David Cook, the academic expert on Islamicist millennialism!

There will be a messianic age, led by either Jesus or another messianic figure called the Mahdi. This latter figure will conquer the entire world and convert everyone to Islam.

That is what they believe is happening right now, folks! We are in the early stages of the war through which every infidel is killed, and every pious Westerner / Asian / African, etc. converts to fundamental Islam.

This is also a good introduction to Islamic messianism. One thing Cook does not say here, but does say elsewhere is that modern imams teach that the Dajjal does not have to be one individual (as classical Islamic teaching holds, which Cook repeats here) but that “Dajjal” may refer to a nation (or alliance of nations), or to an entire culture. Guess who.

Another cheery factoid he leaves out is that the popular timetable for Islamicist apocalyptics is that the Day of Judgment will happen in the Muslim year 1500 AH. That’s 2076 our time, folks. Which means that – as bad as things are now – we are on the outer edge of the maelstrom. Fanatic Islamicist millenarianism will get worse as we get closer and closer to that date.

More later.

7 posted on 02/28/2003 2:08:08 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: John H K; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; JesseShurun; gdebrae; ...
Coming to judge the living and the dead...Flag
8 posted on 02/28/2003 3:11:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Dajjal
The madhi is said to come from Afganistan and parade about with black flags. Both Omar and UBL used this prophecy to convince illiterate people that they were the madhi. The taleban and Omar are always pictured with those black turbans and flags.
Maybe the USA is God's intrument, what does the arab world like them apples. I suspect the resistance we are getting from Saudi Arabia, etc,,, are not supporting the USA
9 posted on 02/28/2003 3:14:04 PM PST by STD
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To: STD
because they believe this crap.
10 posted on 02/28/2003 3:15:09 PM PST by STD
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To: John H K; blam; Magog
BUMP!
11 posted on 02/28/2003 3:17:16 PM PST by Cool Guy (In God We Trust.)
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To: STD
see this thread, espectially post #17 & later.
12 posted on 02/28/2003 3:31:04 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: STD
used this prophecy to convince illiterate people

Actually, the more literate the person is, the easier it would be to convince him -- so long as it's literacy in the Qur'an and Hadith. And the black flag is the least of the prophecies. There are hundreds of "Signs of Qiyamah," and it isn't hard for the mullahs to make the case, Hal-Lindsey-like, that they are coming to pass. And these prophecies guarantee them victory over an Infidel Superpower, so don't expect a few stealth bombers and daisy cutters to make them change their minds.

13 posted on 02/28/2003 3:48:02 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Allan
Bump
14 posted on 02/28/2003 3:50:19 PM PST by Allan
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To: John H K
Disaster That Struck The Ancients
15 posted on 02/28/2003 4:13:59 PM PST by blam
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To: John H K
Muhammad Sajad Ali : Qadiri-Noshahi
16 posted on 02/28/2003 4:45:17 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: John H K
The Signs of Qiyamah
by Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali and Mufti Afzal Hoosen Elias

17 posted on 02/28/2003 4:47:48 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: RnMomof7
You can readily see how the mullahs use this plagiarized and altered apocalyptic to rouse their minions to terrorism. Fits perfectly into their conquer-the-world-for-Islam philosophy.

Of course, from time to time, there are Christian and Jewish apocalyptic folks who want to bring on the millennium by destroying the Muslim shrine to clear the way for the rebuilding of the Temple. But that is a small minority. I think this sort of apocalyptic is more widespread and more compelling to the average Muslim than it is among any Christians, either at present or in the past.
18 posted on 02/28/2003 5:09:33 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: John H K
If you were advising the president on what he could do to avoid provoking unnecessarily Muslims who believe strongly in Islamic prophecy, what would you tell him?

Cook: I would tell him to convert to Islam if I were trying to get him to avoid provoking Muslims who believe strongly in Islamic prophecy. There is probably no other way to avoid provoking them.
19 posted on 02/28/2003 5:15:23 PM PST by tet68 (Jeremiah 51:24 ..."..Before your eyes I will repay Babylon for all the wrong they have done in Zion")
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To: Dajjal
Very interesting links.
20 posted on 02/28/2003 8:55:29 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: John H K
Here's another thread.
21 posted on 02/28/2003 9:55:46 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Sorry about that! Here's the link.
22 posted on 02/28/2003 9:57:21 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Sabertooth; harpseal
Ping
23 posted on 02/28/2003 10:00:27 PM PST by Travis McGee (--------------VISUALIZE TRAITORS HANGING FROM LAMP POSTS----------------)
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To: Travis McGee; Victoria Delsoul
Hey, you forgot Victoria.



24 posted on 02/28/2003 10:13:57 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Dajjal; 2sheep; Quix; Thinkin' Gal

 
Eclipses during Ramadan
by David L. McNaughton
In "Hamdard Islamicus" (Karachi, Pakistan), vol. XIX no. 1 (Spring 1996): pp. 81-86.

Double Eclipses during Ramadan

Sometimes a Ramadan will contain a solar and a lunar eclipse. That inevitably provokes comment, because of traditions that such a "double-eclipse" is a portent for some unusual event. Ithna'asheri Shi'ites, for example, believe that their Twelfth Imam will reappear after a Ramadan double-eclipse (although those two phenomena will supposedly take place in reverse order, with the solar one occurring in mid-month (5); that will require the moon to suddenly double its speed of movement after the onset of the Holy Month!)

In March/April 1894 (Ramadan 1311), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (founder of the Ahmadiyya or Qadiani movement in Pakistan) interpreted a double-eclipse as a sign that he was a genuine modern-day prophet (6). The lunar eclipse during that particular month was only partial, although the solar one two weeks later was total in a few places in eastern Asia (7). However, there was nothing at all extraordinary about those two eclipses: every 22 or 23 Islamic years there is at least one Ramadan featuring a pair of eclipses two weeks apart (8) - one of which is usually partial; see Table 1.

Very much rarer is a Ramadan containing two total eclipses.

Table 2 lists all such occasions since AH 1, as well as during the next 200 years (9); (its solar eclipses are all central, with annular ones also included).

It will be interesting to see whether the two total eclipses scheduled to occur during Ramadan 1424 (AD November 2003) - are cited to support a claim similar to that made by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, or as proof of thesignificance of some extraordinary event.

< -snip- >

Table 2

Ramadans with two central eclipses

LUNAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SOLAR

AH . . AD . . . . . . . . . . Date . . . Where visible . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Date . . .Where visible

.283 . .896 . . . . . . . ..29 Oct . . .Pacific & adjacent . . . . . . . . . . 12 Nov . Canada; Alaska;
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(25 Oct) . . landmasses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(8 Nov) . NE Pacific

.305 . .918 . . . . . . . . .5 Mar . . Eurasia; . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 Mar . .Antarctic; south
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (28 Feb) .NE Africa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (15 Mar) . .Indian Ocean

.462 . 1070 . . . . . . . . .2 Jul . . .Pacific & adjacent . . . . . . . . . . . .16 Jul . . .Arctic; Siberia
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(26 Jun) . .landmasses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(10 Jul)

.529 . 1135 . . . . . . . . . 4 Jul . . .America; Pacific; . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 Jul . . .Antarctic; far
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (27 Jun) . New Zealand . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(12 Jul) . . .south Pacific

.596 . 1200 . . . . . . . . . 5 Jul . . . Pacific & adjacent . . . . . . . . . . *19 Jul . Siberia; Arctic;
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (28 Jun) . .landmasses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (12 Jul) . . NW Atlantic

1200 . 1786 . . . . . . . . .11 Jul . . . Pacific & adjacent . . . . . . . . . . 25 Jul . . South Africa &
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . landmasses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . adjacent oceans

1424 .2003. . . . . . . . .9 Nov. . .Europe; SW Asia; . . . . . . . . . .23 Nov . Antarctic; south
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Africa; America . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Indian Ocean

1580 . 2155 . . . . . . . . .9 Mar . . Europe; Africa; . . . . . . . . . . . . .*2 Apr . .China; Russia;
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .America . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Kashmir; Mongolia;
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .Afghanistan

Notes for Table 2

Central lunar eclipses are always total.

*The central solar eclipses listed above are total unless asterisked - in which case they are annular.

Dates apply to the instant of maximum eclipse.

Extrapolated Gregorian dates are given even on occasions when the old Julian calendar was in operation;
the corresponding Julian date is then shown below in brackets.

A Google search on ramadan mahdi eclipse yielded 133 results.

A Google search on ramadan mehdi eclipse (alternate "mahdi" spelling) yielded 58 results.

Related FR threads…


Imam Al-Mahdi... The Extension of the Imamate
      Posted by on 11/16/2001 1:13 PM PST with 40 comments

Shianews.com ^ | October 31, 2001 | Walhamdo Lillahe Rabbil Aalameen
In the Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful. Peace and Blessings be on our Master Muhammad, his progeny, and his chosen companions and all of Allah’s messengers. Allah says in His Glorious Book: "Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Members of the Household, and cleanse you with a through cleansing". One of those Members and one of the Infallible Imams is Imam Al-Mahdi whom Allah has prepared to fill the earth with justice, by means of Islam, having been filled with oppression, falsehood and unbelief. We celebrate the birth of this Imam who ...
     
 
BLACK FLAGS of Islam -- Portents of the Imam al-Mahdi?
      Posted by on 10/28/2001 3:58 PM PST with 137 comments

Various | 10/28/2001 | Sabertooth, others
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Black Flags of Islam &nbsp; Portents of the Imam al-Mahdi, the Moslems' prophesied deliverer of Jerusalem? from Diane Alden… Afghanistan has special significance to the world of militant Islam. It was once called Khurasan, along with parts of Iran and Pakistan. Muhammad said: "If you see the black flags coming from Khurasan, join that army, even if you have to crawl over ice, for that is the army of the Imam al-Mahdi and no one can stop that army until it reaches Jerusalem." That is one reason Osama bin Laden chose it as his base, or al-Qaida. Mohammed's ...
     
 
Mohammed's Prophecies of the Imam Mahdi
      Posted by on 10/25/2001 10:49 AM PDT with 67 comments

10 - 25 - 2001 | Sabertooth
I'm looking for information concerning Mohammed's Prophecies of the Imam Mahdi. Particularly where they might shed light on Osama bin Laden's strategies behind the Terror attacks of 9/11. Specific quotes and sources appreciated.
     




25 posted on 02/28/2003 10:15:49 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: John H K
For anyone interested in the prophetic from a Christian point of view I highly reccomend a book called "Unleashing the Beast" by Perry Stone. It speaks volumes of Islams desire to control the world and how it fits into the end time prophecies.
26 posted on 02/28/2003 10:26:00 PM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: richardtavor
Today's 23rd Psalm:

The Lord is my peace Paxil. I shall not live in anxiety...

27 posted on 02/28/2003 10:34:18 PM PST by null and void (Sorry...)
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To: Dajjal
That’s 2076 our time, folks. Which means that – as bad as things are now – we are on the outer edge of the maelstrom. Fanatic Islamicist millenarianism will get worse as we get closer and closer to that date.

You're just one big ole friggin' ray of sunshine aren't you?

28 posted on 02/28/2003 10:37:52 PM PST by null and void
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To: John H K
Bump for later reading.
29 posted on 02/28/2003 10:40:24 PM PST by BlackVeil
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To: Sabertooth
I have a theory.

Our calendar is wrong. Pretty much everyone knows that the start date is at least 4 years off, and that there is no year zero. We supposedly date from Christ's birth, yet start the year 6 days later on January 1.

Further, there is NO Biblical authority for Decemebr 25 being His birthday.

Clearly, the date of His birth is not important. If it were SOMEONE would have reported it!

So what day is certain? The day of Crucifixion, and more importantly, the day of Resurection.

Our calandar should start on Easter. All men are born, all die, the most unique event in Christ's life is the resurection. It is his proof of divinity.

We know the day. Does anyone happen to know if there is any Biblical authority for the year?

If so, step ahead 2000 years for the real Y2K...
30 posted on 02/28/2003 10:57:32 PM PST by null and void (About 2033 AD???)
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To: Sabertooth
Is it eschatology? Or scatology… as is in bovine scatology.

Heck, I know what eschatology means, but I still think the author wanted to say scatology regarding this article.

31 posted on 02/28/2003 11:35:01 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Sabertooth
I forgot this:

Rod Dreher: What are the main beliefs of Islamic eschatology?

He started it. LOL

32 posted on 02/28/2003 11:42:08 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
Escargot.



33 posted on 02/28/2003 11:43:17 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Sabertooth
Hmmm, more like leeches, LOL.
34 posted on 02/28/2003 11:54:28 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Sabertooth; null and void; STD; All
Sabertooth: Thanks for the links!

Null and void: "You're just one big ole friggin' ray of sunshine aren't you?"

Yup, that's me!

Let me clarify my own POV: I personally don't believe that End-Time prophecies are being fulfilled, whether from the Hadith or from Bible (I follow St. Augustine on the issue).

But I am concerned that because some Muslims believe there is "no future," they are willing to "volunteer" for "the Mahdi's army" and fly planes into the World Trade Center or strap on a dynamite belt and walk into a restaurant. And I'll guess what they'll do with biological, chemical, or radioactive weapons.

So far, public policy assumptions are that this is over political or economic goals (land for Palestinians, remove US airstrips from Saudi land, end the UN sanctions on Iraq, medicine for babies) or even mere societal goals (make women wear burqas, no musical instruments).

The contest may even be about those things for some. But for the most dangerous segment it is about these Islamic prophecies predicting the end of the world.

For them, the invention of the airplanes is a Sign of Qiyamah, the building of skyscrapers is a Sign of Qiyamah, the development of cardiology is a Sign of Qiyamah, the creation of e-mail is a Sign of Qiyamah. This is all in the Hadith, they say.

Right now, Americans have no clue about all this. But if our foreign policy in our democratic republic is to be guided by the opinions of the voting public, we are going to have to get up to speed fast.

The words "Mahdi," "Dajjal," and "Qiyamah" have to become part of our vocabulary.

For example, I would suggest that as our State Department goes around trying to buy influence amongst Islamic leaders, that before we hand one a check, we ask him some version of "Do you now, or have you ever, believed that the United States is the Dajjal?"

35 posted on 03/01/2003 12:17:34 AM PST by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
For them, the invention of the airplanes is a Sign of Qiyamah, the building of skyscrapers is a Sign of Qiyamah, the development of cardiology is a Sign of Qiyamah, the creation of e-mail is a Sign of Qiyamah. This is all in the Hadith, they say.

And even the "bad" Moslems I know refuse to discuss or debate. They simply quote verses from the Quran, while telling me we have nothing to fear because American Christians and Jews are "People of the Book".

36 posted on 03/01/2003 12:43:50 AM PST by ToTheStars
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To: Dajjal
My concern is not so much that Christians and muslims BELIEVE the End Times, but that they want to CAUSE the End Times...
37 posted on 03/01/2003 6:31:38 AM PST by null and void (As in self fulfilling prophecy...)
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To: ToTheStars
we have nothing to fear because American Christians and Jews are "People of the Book".

and our place is to provide the leather for the covers...

38 posted on 03/01/2003 6:33:43 AM PST by null and void
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To: null and void
Further, there is NO Biblical authority for Decemebr 25 being His birthday.

Jesus was conceived on December 25 because the bible lays out that Mary went to Elizabeth on the day of the Immaculate Conception and Elizabeth was 6 months with John and John was conceived on June 25.

Jesus was born on Sept. 29. September is the birth month of kings. I'm not exactly sure how it goes but it has to do with the Course of Abaya(sp?) (I have no idea how to spell it, I've only heard it orally). In the priesthood, there were time periods called "courses", and Jesus was born during this certain course and at a certain time of the course, which would have been on Sept. 29.

I'm mentioning these because I'm sure there is someone here who knows what I'm talking about. If not, I guess I could spend the day researching this to back it up. :^)

39 posted on 03/01/2003 6:48:03 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
I'm mentioning these because I'm sure there is someone here who knows what I'm talking about. If not, I guess I could spend the day researching this to back it up. :^)

I understand.

Nice thing about FR is that there's always someone who has the data at their fingertips, while us mere mortals often don't even know the questions to ask...

40 posted on 03/01/2003 6:55:22 AM PST by null and void
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To: null and void
My concern is not so much that Christians and muslims BELIEVE the End Times, but that they want to CAUSE the End Times...

Yes. They can pick someone who thinks there's no tomorrow, and give him a vial of ebola or a dirty nuke.

41 posted on 03/01/2003 7:02:01 AM PST by Dajjal
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To: #3Fan
Jesus was born during this certain course and at a certain time of the course, which would have been on Sept. 29.

Darn! I though he was a Pisces...

42 posted on 03/01/2003 7:02:08 AM PST by null and void (Hence the fish as a symbol of early Christendom.)
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To: null and void
Let me rephrase that. I could spend a day backing it up. I've had a hard week and I don't think I want to spend all of my Saturday hunting this down. I get a few days off and I might do it though. :^)

I laid out a couple of clues that someone could follow if they're really interested in proving to themselves that December 25 is the exact date of conception and September 29 is the exact date of birth.

43 posted on 03/01/2003 7:02:23 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Dajjal
They can pick someone who thinks there's no tomorrow, and give him a vial of ebola or a dirty nuke.

Or God Himself has selected you to be His agent in destroying eeeeeevil on earth...

44 posted on 03/01/2003 7:03:47 AM PST by null and void
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To: #3Fan
Let me rephrase that. I could spend a day backing it up. I've had a hard week and I don't think I want to spend all of my Saturday hunting this down.

Me? I'm just lazy...

45 posted on 03/01/2003 7:05:24 AM PST by null and void
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To: Dajjal
Yes. They can pick someone who thinks there's no tomorrow, and give him a vial of ebola or a dirty nuke.

Or if you're an atheist, you can rationalize the murder of 60 million as in the Soviet Union by Stalin. Why not, we're all just temporary biological systems. Once a person is dead, it doesn't matter that he ever lived according to atheist philosophy.

46 posted on 03/01/2003 7:06:50 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: null and void
Darn! I though he was a Pisces...

The fish god that was all over the place back then? The Dogon referred to it as the Nommo. The Ninevehns worshipped the same "being". He got around.

47 posted on 03/01/2003 7:09:33 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: null and void
Me? I'm just lazy...

I am today.

48 posted on 03/01/2003 7:11:42 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: John H K
I apologize if somebody has already posted this point or question, but is there a concern out there that the radical factions will do something detrimental to try and "self-fulfil" the prophecy, if you will?
49 posted on 03/01/2003 7:14:15 AM PST by ward_of_the_state
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To: STD
The black flags go back all the way in Muslim history, when there was a slogan "If you see an army with black flags coming forth from Khorasan [present-day Afghanistan], follow them all the way to Jerusalem".

Personally, when I hear "Black Flag" I think of that brand of bug spray (which if you lived in south Florida you would know what I'm talking about), and I would like to use some bug spray on these al-Qaedic bugs.

An interesting factoid is that people who wear black turbans are entitled to do so because they are "descendants of the Prophet Mohammed". Now, considering that

the false-prophet Mohammed had 11 wives at any given time (and I have seen a list of 23 women he was married to in toto) inluding the little 6-year-old girl Alyesha;

AND that he owned 28 slaves, 17 of whom were women;

AND that he also probably had a number of concubines;

AND that he was not above raping other women and was well-known for his energy;

..... I am surprised that we don't see all 1,000,000,000 Muslims wearing black turbans.

50 posted on 03/01/2003 7:16:45 AM PST by wildandcrazyrussian
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