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Ugly Aftermath of Roe: Men Now Presume Post-Coital Right to a Dead Baby
NY Newsday ^ | 3-6-2003 | Sheryl McCarthy

Posted on 03/06/2003 11:34:43 AM PST by Notwithstanding

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Very recent headlines show us that a “woman’s choice” is now a “man’s right.”
1 posted on 03/06/2003 11:34:43 AM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: Notwithstanding


From Los Angeles (NY NewsDay):

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/ny-vpmcc063158949mar06,0,4077140.column?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left

“His own private investigator testified that before Bakley's murder Blake discussed with him his plans to kidnap the pregnant woman, force her to have an abortion and, if necessary, kill her.”



From Pennsylvania (ABC News):

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030306_1036.html

“A man accused of shaking to death his infant daughter, born after he failed to persuade the child's mother to get an abortion, has pleaded guilty to third-degree murder.”



From Rhode Island:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7224671&BRD=1713&PAG=461&dept_id=24491&rfi=6

“His arrest ends a crusade by Detective Chip Devine, who learned on July 5 that Andrade repeatedly punched his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach after she refused to have an abortion, police allege.”



From Kentucky:

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/sports/5273418.htm

“Her refusal prompted Magloire to confront Gause, chase her around her parents' home, and drag her by her feet, telling her, "You will have an abortion if I have to take you there in your socks," says the suit, filed in Fayette Circuit Court.”




2 posted on 03/06/2003 11:35:22 AM PST by Notwithstanding (What have you done for LIFE lately?)
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To: AKA Elena; american colleen; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Aristophanes; ArrogantBustard; Askel5; ...
I posted good news earlier - now here is the bad news.
3 posted on 03/06/2003 11:38:03 AM PST by Notwithstanding (What have you done for LIFE lately?)
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To: Notwithstanding
Although I think these are extreme examples, I think there is quite a bit of pressure placed on women to abort an unplanned pregnancy. I think Patricia Heaton addresses this in her involvement in the pro-life movement.


4 posted on 03/06/2003 11:46:46 AM PST by Aggie Mama
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To: Aggie Mama
Perhaps, but lets clarify:

I don't think these examples are unusual - though like every freely chosen abortion (which is a choice to murder those less powerful) every attempt to force an abortion is extreme.

But not unusual: these are all sotries written in the past 2 weeks. That indicates this happens all the time. We know that most incidents do not get covered by any news outlet.
5 posted on 03/06/2003 12:00:13 PM PST by Notwithstanding (What have you done for LIFE lately?)
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To: Gophack
ping
6 posted on 03/06/2003 12:15:43 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding; ArGee
Since women have "Choice" men should also have choice. If a woman chooses to keep a baby then men should be able to choose not to support it. The women would take responsibility for their "choice" and the man would not feel compelled to kill the child or its mother.

This would save so many lives it would be incredible. Until "Roe Vs. Wade" is overturned I don't see how a man can be held responsible for a woman's "Choice" It is HER "Choice" as they have told us over and over. So if said woman is so responsible as to make such a life and death choice then they should not be able to "Force" the man to take the responsibility. After all, it's his life too. In light of R v Wade how can the expect for men to be "Oppressed" by women in this way? It's an outrage, it's immoral, it's Oppression and a form of slavery. Either they overturn R v Wade or absolve men of the responsibility to care for the mother and child financially and/or emotionally.
7 posted on 03/06/2003 12:20:54 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: Notwithstanding
Also not unusual: Middle class PARENTS bullying their pregnant unwed teenager into having an abortion.

I personally know of several cases.

8 posted on 03/06/2003 12:23:24 PM PST by Salman
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To: Notwithstanding
In ancient, less civilized times, a man could take his newborn child and toss it over a cliff or dash it into rocks, etc. doing a post birth termination of an unwanted child (for whatever reason). Our society and culture has regressed to this less civilized state, and now we are even on the verge of embracing cannibalism of individual human life as 'enlightened medical practice'. Our citizenry doesn't want to face these degenerations of our nation or our society. We are past redeeming this country from the thorough degeneracy accomplished in the last thirty plus years.
9 posted on 03/06/2003 12:27:13 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Salman
Exactly - another extreme and typical occurence in our society.
10 posted on 03/06/2003 12:27:44 PM PST by Notwithstanding (What have you done for LIFE lately?)
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To: MHGinTN
So, do you agree, men do presume a post-coital right to a dead baby? Or are we not uite there yet?
11 posted on 03/06/2003 12:34:50 PM PST by Notwithstanding (What have you done for LIFE lately?)
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To: Salman
Also not unusual: Middle class PARENTS bullying their pregnant unwed teenager into having an abortion.

I personally know of several cases.

So do I! There is a dangerous assumption that parents will seek to prevent an abortion once they find out about an underage/illegitimate pregnancy. It is frequently not true!

12 posted on 03/06/2003 12:36:53 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Notwithstanding
Are any of us surprised?

Roe v. Wade has done the reverse of what the pro-abortion feminists claim they were seeking ... liberation. Women have become slaves, and men have become liberated ... liberated from feeling any responsibility for their actions.

It takes a man and a woman to conceive a child, and therefore that child IS the responsibility of both the man and the woman. Putting abortion aside for a moment, even before RvW men turned their back on their pregnant girlfriends. I happen to agree with the small, tiny portion of the so-called women's movement that sought to demand financial assistance from men who walked away. You can't force a man to love his child, but you can require that he help pay for the upbringing.

But today, post RvW, we have men who not only don't think that they should be financial responsible, but IF their girlfriend becomes pregnant, it's HER fault -- and SHE needs to take care of it.

I'm not man-bashing. There are many good men out there who do the "right thing" -- if not marriage, than support. There are many women out there who try and "trap" a man into marriage or support ... even claiming a child is theirs when it's not! And parents who get involved and browbeat their daughters into an abortion, or their son's girlfriends ... I'm sure there are many stories we've heard or personally know.

Anyway, none of these comments should surprise any of us. The weight of abortion rests solely on the woman's shoulders, and her heart. She bares the physical trauma; she bares the emotional pain. She can't talk to anyone about it because, after all, it's "HER CHOICE".

As pro-lifers, we must always work to protect the unborn from torture and death; at the SAME TIME, we need to work to love and help the mothers who keep their babies, as well as the ones who've aborted their children and feel sincere guilt for their actions. These women need our help, our compassion, our love, and to ask for God's forgiveness and mercy so they can get on with their lives and be whole again.

God bless.

13 posted on 03/06/2003 1:08:12 PM PST by Gophack
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To: Gophack
Abortion is not birth control, its the destruction of life. Contraceptives are cheap, plentiful and if used by both parties could avoid the neccessity of this immoral, irresponsible, disgusting , shameful practice.




14 posted on 03/06/2003 1:49:15 PM PST by ffusco ("Essiri sempri la santu fora la chiesa.")
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To: Aggie Mama
Although I think these are extreme examples, I think there is quite a bit of pressure placed on women to abort an unplanned pregnancy. I think Patricia Heaton addresses this in her involvement in the pro-life movement.

According to statistics at abortion alternative centers, 80% of women who come in abortion-minded are being pressured by either the child's father or the woman's father.

Her choice to kill her child? Riiiiiiiight!

Shalom.

15 posted on 03/06/2003 1:52:51 PM PST by ArGee (I did not come through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man... - Gandalf)
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To: Khepera
Since women have "Choice" men should also have choice.

Silly Khepera. It's not about "choice."

It's about power - always has been.

Shalom.

16 posted on 03/06/2003 2:01:53 PM PST by ArGee (I did not come through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man... - Gandalf)
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To: ArGee
Well in the name of equality men should have equal power especially when it comes to "Choice". Equal protection, under the law. Is that not what the 14th amendment is about?

Everyone should be demanding equality, especially here.
17 posted on 03/06/2003 2:10:15 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: Khepera
You don't understand the law. Maintaining a pregnancy till birth and providing support after birth are two different issues, and the fact that women have unilateral rights on one does not cancel out the other.

The "unfairness" you complain of is the unfairness of mother nature choosing women as the bearers of children.

Men can never be pregnant, and they never bear any physical burden of pregnancy. Women have more control over what happens during pregnancy, because they own the body affected.

After birth, neither men nor women can unilaterally end obligations to the born and living child, (although a unique and stronger biological-based tie persists between mother and child.) Women can be forced to support their child, too.

The law considers a born and living child as a boon.
18 posted on 03/06/2003 2:23:16 PM PST by SarahW
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To: SarahW
A boon?
19 posted on 03/06/2003 2:29:39 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: Khepera
That's even the word used.
20 posted on 03/06/2003 2:37:42 PM PST by SarahW
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To: Khepera
Well in the name of equality men should have equal power especially when it comes to "Choice". Equal protection, under the law. Is that not what the 14th amendment is about?

Yeah, especially for the unborn.

21 posted on 03/06/2003 2:41:40 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Khepera
the man would not feel compelled to kill the child or its mother.

This is quite a statement, but consistent with your theme that men have "no choice."

Men have the choice to abstain from s8x with women they aren't married to. They have to choice to use "protection." Conception is the result of both men's and women's "choices."

A father should be able to prevent an abortion, if he wants to raise his child. Unfortunately, that's not permitted by law. Maybe a few lives could be saved if men counseled their "partners" to choose adoption for their babies. Then there's no financial burden to either ... biological material donor ... can't call these folks parents!

22 posted on 03/06/2003 2:57:20 PM PST by Tax-chick (I'm from Oklahoma, the center of the universe.)
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To: Notwithstanding
Hey, why shouldn't men have an equal right to murder their unborn children?
23 posted on 03/06/2003 3:00:28 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Notwithstanding
The only solution to this issue is the only adult way of handling it anyway........take the time to get to know someone before jumping into bed with him/her, or marrying him/her. The adult way is patience and honesty.

I admit that this is difficult, and the lessons come hard. But it's what we ought to be teaching our children.
24 posted on 03/06/2003 3:03:00 PM PST by WaterDragon (Playing possum doesn't work against nukes.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
There is a dangerous assumption that parents will seek to prevent an abortion once they find out about an underage/illegitimate pregnancy.

You're right. I worked in a crisis pregnancy center where a 15 year old came to us because she did not want to have her THIRD abortion. Her mother was a doctor, btw, and had arranged for the girl's first two abortions virtually on the spot - the first one was when the girl was 13.

We told her she was pregnant and she burst into tears and said she didn't want to have another abortion. We gave her as much information and sources of assistance as possible, but I doubt that once she stepped out our door, she had much choice in the matter. I'm sure Mother hauled her off to an abortionist buddy as soon as she got home that day.

25 posted on 03/06/2003 3:04:15 PM PST by livius
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To: SarahW
After birth, neither men nor women can unilaterally end obligations to the born and living child, (although a unique and stronger biological-based tie persists between mother and child.)

This is incorrect. Women can in many states unilaterally put their children up for adoption. Nebraska, for example, gives a father five days to assert his paternity rights. In a recent case, a pregnant teenager moved away from her boyfriend, had the baby, and put it up for adoption. By the time the father found out, his rights had expired. The judge said he should have kept tabs on the mother, notwithstanding the fact that if he had, the woman could have charged him with stalking.

As far as family law is concerned, men are walking wallets, and little more.

26 posted on 03/06/2003 3:07:05 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: SarahW
Women have more control over what happens during pregnancy, because they own the body affected. You conveniently ignored the body of the unborn baby. I'm not surprised! They aren't human beings to your ilk. You assume that because the baby is there, inside the woman's body (by no fault of the unborn child, as even you would have to admit, in 99.9% of the pregnancies), that she owns the body of that other individual human being. THAT is the demonic lie your ilk tries to foist upon the public in order to support your rite of bloody slaughter. The truth is, even the placental membranes and protective bubble are built by the new individual human being living a lifetime begun at its conception. May God have mercy upon your twisted soul for so purposely ignoring these alive individual human beings in order to defend the indefensible.
27 posted on 03/06/2003 3:18:20 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Tax-chick
Yes and you will notice that all the choices you gave me are already enjoyed by women. They should exercize those choices too. Once the deed is done however then we should all have the choice to terminate. Men cannot choose to terminate the baby like the women but we should be able to terminate support. it is only fair.
28 posted on 03/06/2003 3:34:12 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: jwalsh07
Everyone should get to choose dont you think? we know the choice of the unborn now we need some choices for the already born too.
29 posted on 03/06/2003 3:35:53 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: Khepera
we should all have the choice to terminate

It would be equally fair if no one had the choice to "terminate"! Let's be honest and call it "kill." Unfortunately, that's not the current legal situation.

If you want to make the law fair, shouldn't you be aiming for fewer legal killings, rather than more?

30 posted on 03/06/2003 3:50:55 PM PST by Tax-chick (I'm from Oklahoma, the center of the universe.)
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To: MHGinTN
Please don't start....I'm not ignoring the baby.

I'm simply explaining that it's the physical burdens, not the economic ones, which underpin "advantages" the law gives women. The legal reason men can't control the pregnancy is because the woman is pregnant and not the man.


31 posted on 03/06/2003 3:55:07 PM PST by SarahW
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To: Tax-chick
No, it wouldn't be "eqaully fair", because men would bear none of the physical risks.
32 posted on 03/06/2003 3:55:47 PM PST by SarahW
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To: Tax-chick
I would make a law to outlaw abortion and prosicute those who do it for murder.
33 posted on 03/06/2003 4:04:43 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: SarahW; Khepera
men would bear none of the physical risks

I've had six babies. A number of my friends have more. The "physical risks" of pregnancy (1) do not justify killing the baby and (2) are less significant than the risks of abortion. All this "terrible burden of pregnancy" stuff is a total exaggeration.

Adults need to be responsible for their actions. You can't just say, "He should have been responsible, not me!" or "It's not my fault, she could have said no!" Not when you then use that as the justification for killing an innocent human being conceived through your irresponsibility.

I'm using "your" in a generic sense here, not suggesting that either of you actually would do this :-).

34 posted on 03/06/2003 4:05:59 PM PST by Tax-chick (I'm from Oklahoma, the center of the universe.)
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To: SarahW
the fair is in august.
35 posted on 03/06/2003 4:13:51 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: Notwithstanding
If I don't want her preggers, then I stiff her if she doesn't be careful. Hey the NOW NAGs asked for it, they got it. This is the ugly side of the "pro-choice" argument they don't want people to see.
36 posted on 03/06/2003 4:17:23 PM PST by goldstategop
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To: Right Wing Professor
Hey, why shouldn't men have an equal right to murder their unborn children?

Well, the rights should be equal - but for all three parties, those rights being the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.

37 posted on 03/06/2003 4:24:38 PM PST by meyer
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To: Tax-chick
I've had six babies. A number of my friends have more. The "physical risks" of pregnancy (1) do not justify killing the baby and (2) are less significant than the risks of abortion. All this "terrible burden of pregnancy" stuff is a total exaggeration.

Well, there are the very rare cases where death of the mother is a high possibility - that might be about the only time I'd support abortion. Self-defense.

38 posted on 03/06/2003 4:28:09 PM PST by meyer
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To: meyer
Yup. The pro aborts may have started out thinking you could only get rid of unborn babies but they ended up placing women's lives at risk. Quite an argument for women's equality not that they'd ever admit its completely absurd.
39 posted on 03/06/2003 4:28:55 PM PST by goldstategop
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To: meyer
the very rare cases where death of the mother is a high possibility

Even in those cases, abortion might do more harm than good. If a woman is already very sick or injured, a stressful surgical procedure with a high risk of infection isn't exactly smart medicine.

However, I was referring in my post to the general state of pregnancy, of which I have considerable experience, not the exceptional cases.

40 posted on 03/06/2003 4:48:27 PM PST by Tax-chick (I'm from Oklahoma, the center of the universe.)
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To: Tax-chick
Even in those cases, abortion might do more harm than good. If a woman is already very sick or injured, a stressful surgical procedure with a high risk of infection isn't exactly smart medicine.

Perhaps such cases are even rarer than I implied. Nevertheless, my premise was that justification for abortion would be limited to self-defense.

However, I was referring in my post to the general state of pregnancy, of which I have considerable experience, not the exceptional cases.

Understood, and I agree.

41 posted on 03/06/2003 5:01:53 PM PST by meyer
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To: Notwithstanding
Reads like the editor graduated from the Don Rickles' School of Headline Writing; at some point, good taste has to either be reasserted or discarded.

What, exactly does this article have to do with the basic issue of Roe vs Wade?

42 posted on 03/06/2003 5:28:59 PM PST by Old Professer
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To: Khepera
Someone else used the word "fair" - but isn't that the big complaint - that men aren't being treated fairly?
43 posted on 03/06/2003 7:00:33 PM PST by SarahW
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To: Notwithstanding
** “woman’s choice” is now a “man’s right.”**

And what does God have to say about it? Should not God's will be sought first?
44 posted on 03/06/2003 7:03:06 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tax-chick
Pregnancy and childbirth have serious risks, and it cannot be predicted in many cases who will suffer. I'm glad you never did.

I'm also glad you see that women *also* can't be forced to have an abortion or give up the child's right to support from both parents.

45 posted on 03/06/2003 7:06:42 PM PST by SarahW
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To: SarahW
Not my complaint. I dont expect fairness.
46 posted on 03/06/2003 7:08:26 PM PST by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
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To: SarahW
Pregnancy and childbirth have serious risks ... The reasoning, the syllogism, actually starts a bit earlier, that sexual intercourse carries the risk of a new individual human coming into existence, that that new individual's life support then carries risks for the woman exposed to the possibility of pregnancy and the father ought bear some of the risk of that life support. BTW, I'm not in any way in favor of removing the male responsibility for life support, for the unborn child or the woman giving life support. I'm certainly not arguing that men should have any right to expect the death of an unborn child, from the standpoint of exposing a woman to the real dangers of abortion or the child to the real terminal results of abortion. Abortion is designed to kill an individual human being. Period. That's not a 'right' to be conveyed to a woman to unilaterally decide either. The law ought deal with the protection of individual human life. All, as in the mother and the child and the father, involved in the perspective of supporting life, not 'choosing to kill'.
47 posted on 03/06/2003 8:10:28 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Notwithstanding
But not unusual: these are all sotries written in the past 2 weeks. That indicates this happens all the time. We know that most incidents do not get covered by any news outlet.

I agree with your judgement. Important post.

48 posted on 03/07/2003 5:07:44 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Salman
Also not unusual: Middle class PARENTS bullying their pregnant unwed teenager into having an abortion.

I used to do sidewalk prayer vigils outside Planned Infanticide in Brookline. I saw as many mothers pushing their distraught daughters into the abortuary as I did boyfriends. Statistically, I think moms are the leading abortion advocates followed closely by boyenemies.

49 posted on 03/07/2003 5:11:38 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Gophack
Roe v. Wade has done the reverse of what the pro-abortion feminists claim they were seeking ... liberation. Women have become slaves, and men have become liberated ... liberated from feeling any responsibility for their actions.

They probably weren't listening to the Pope in 1968:

Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Humanae Vitae
Pope Paul VI (1968)


50 posted on 03/07/2003 5:16:17 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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