LA Rabbi Asks Mel Gibson to Reconsider Jesus Film

No one is responsible for the sins of his ancestors.
For that matter, no one is responsible for the sins of anyone other than himself.

This is ridiculous: "The Jews invoked responsibility for themselves and their posterity"

SB: No one is responsible for the sins of his ancestors.

I am strongly inclined to agree with you on this point. I think that one can very effectively argue that those who do not condone the sins of their ancestors cannot be held responsible for them. However, it appears that many disagree with us. As one example, consider John Paul II’s “apology” in March, 2000. He said, "We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood." Forgiveness cannot be sought unless one accepts responsibility. If JPII does not accept responsibility for the past sins of others, his apology is meaningless. Webster’s states that, “Apology usually applies to an expression of regret for a mistake or wrong with implied admission of guilt or fault and with or without references to palliating circumstances.”

SB: For that matter, no one is responsible for the sins of anyone other than himself.

Again, if one does not condone those sins, I whole-heartily agree. But, one can share responsibility for the sins of others; e.g. tempting someone to sin. Our Lord said, “But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a mill-stone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Bishop Challoner comments: “That is, shall put a stumbling-block in their way, and cause them to fall into sin.”

SB: This is ridiculous: "The Jews invoked responsibility for themselves and their posterity"

In that the Jews accepted responsibility for the act, for themselves and their children, when Pilate said that he washed his hands of it, this is not ridiculous and is merely a statement of fact for those who accept St. Matthew’s Gospel account of the Passion. They said, “His blood be upon us, and upon our children.” They could certainly accept responsibility for themselves, for they had the power to stop it. However, it does not seem possible for them to bind their posterity with the responsibility; unless, of course, that posterity condones it.

I particularly like St. Chrysostom’s commentary: “Still the God of all mercies did not literally comply with their impious prayer. For, of these children he selected some for himself; amongst the rest even Paul, and many thousands who were converted at Jerusalem.” I think his point that God does not hold this responsibility as unforgivable is important and well taken.

The purpose of my original post is to try and understand the concept of “collective responsibility” and whether this idea has any validity. I wish to thank you for your remarks, although, some explanation would have been more helpful. Any further criticism would be greatly appreciated.

In my Bible it lays the blame fairly well at the feet of the Jews. However, I do not hold them any more responsible for it than I hold myself responsible.

So the Romans did not kill jews?

I am sure someone has already answered you, but read the part about Pilate trying to free Jesus and the Jewish crowd choosing to free the criminal Barrabas instead. Like I said before though; We are all responsible for Christ's death on the cross. We are the people symbolized by that crowd and we renounce Christ every day.

Yes...and holding all the Jews responsible would be similar to holding all the Germans responsible for WWII and mass murder. Collective guilt is BS...

Hey, real Christians adore and love the Jews. Just wanted to let you know.

And how can a person question that the Jews are not God's choosen people. This is a group of people, that haven't had any land to call there own for at least 2100 years. But yet there culture and customs remain intact. How many cultures have died in the 2100 years? Yet the Jews continue to prosper and remain intact.

It was also written in Genesis (I am paraphrasing) that the Jews would be scattered amoung the heathens, but God will remember the coventant with the Abramham, will return them to Isreal.

This is a big mistake. Secular US Judiasm in particular, but Judiasm in general, has shown an antipathy towards Christians and their faith. Seemingly, they believe the issue is that the Christians are their adversary and likely to persecute them. Beyond this there is almost a gut level rejection by the secular and Jews of any faith based belief.

IMHO, the problem for Jews is not the Christians but their own success. Almost no one writes or thinks about envy. As the second deadly sin, envy can be seen as the usual culprit in persecuting Jews. Part of the Jewish success must be the finding that, on the average, the Jewish IQ is 115 while the White European is 100. This finding is particularly singular for Jews of Russian origin. The result is whether in Weimar Germany or in the US Jews are extraordinarily successful and over-represented on population basis norms in the professions, business and finance.

For several thousand years Christians have dealt with "envy" as a sin. Now that the popular culture demands religious expression is passe, we have a situation where those who might suffer the consequences of envy are attempting to destroy a remaining barrier to the implementation of envy.

In summary, the Jews were persecuted in Germany not because they were different but because they were successful and different. At the very time when Israel needs all the allies it can muster, we have a Rabbi telling Christians how to portray their religion! See page 253 of Frum's book, The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bushas support for my thesis.

While we are discussing books, also remember that the Le Haye Christian oriented books have sold 41 million copies! Also, David Brooks and others have all mentioned that the typical public intellectual has zero contact with any Evangelical or practicing Roman Catholic. Most Jewish intellectuals, and this Rabbi in particular, consistently deride the very people whose faith made their success in this country a possibility and whose faith sustains the continued hope for the nation state of Israel.

It should be noted that there's about to be a hit piece on Mel by the New York Times. It sounds as if Mel's 85 year old father is a bit of a racist. Don't go overboardon that. I have no direct knowledge and only saw an interview on O'Rielly where Mel was discussin the NYT article to appear Sunday. Evidenty they are going to try to paint Mel as a bit of a racist too, mostly by inuendo if I understood correctly.

I wonder if everybody's favorite liberal wacko Danny Glover will go on TV to support his friend who made him millions of dollars doing 3 Lethal Weapon sequels after he was already an established star.

I doubt it. As I understand it, Glover is a staunch leftist. At least that's the impression I've gotten from some of his public statements over the last year or so. You may find some articles on the forum by using his name.

Last Temptation of Christ: Sorta goofy, but not bad cinema. Great music.

Several Clarifications and accuracies questions.

Jesus by the Hebrew name Yehosoua, Joshua was born in Nazareth.
The city of Nazareth is at the north of Israel at the low Galilee.
However there is a debate on that fact.
In Hebrew till today the root of the word Nazareth is Nazir a Monk meaning one that excludes himself out.
grows long hair and warship god. The first monk mentioned in Bible was Samson at the book of Judges.
He had stratified the Biblical Hebrew definition of a Monk.

The second problem is Jesus birthplace.
According to tradition he was born in Beit-Lechm which all know at the South of Judea Mountains, in Biblical times the Judah Tribe territory.
However there is a problem with that argument. The distance and the description between the Labors Miriam Had and Delivery. There is an additional Bet-Lechem at the Galilee called The Galilee Beit-Lechem. It is 20 minutes drive from Nazareth and at those ancient days a couple of hours maximum on a mule or donkey was the time to travel from Nazareth to The Galilee Bet-Lehem.

Translation, The Bible was translated by what so called the translation of the seventy for the seventy scholars did that. The New Testament was written in Hebrew and was translated into Greek and then Latin.
Miriam was described in the original scripts written in Hebrew as a young pretty young woman in Hebrew Alma.
The translation was converting it into a virgin.

At the beginning old followers of Jesus were Jewish, it was a sect among many others at that time such as the Isians Prushim Tzdokim living in the Judea desert. The Dead Sea scrolls had reveled some of that culture social life at the city of Komran.
Amazingly Jesus was never mentioned there even though he was a great leader at that time.
The sects Isians Prushim Tzdokim were Nazirim monks by Hebrew definition. Jesus was located and acting mainly in the Galilee but was affected by these sects. He mentored for tolerance love of the others which all were in fact the foundations of Jewish fate. Rabbi Akiva said Vehavta Lereach Kamocha Love Your Friend as You Love Yourself. It was based upon the Jewish laws.

Back to our sects the main motive of these sects was isolation and study for judgment day. In the Dead Sea scrolls they describe the philosophy of that apocalyptic vision as the war between the light and darkness.
These sects were extremely Orthodox Jews by our days.
So the ancient followers of Jesus which was a Jew and mentored Judaism obeying Jewish laws since this was God Command in the covenant moment at the Sinai-Mountain with Moses in front the entire Israelites.
This was the moment when the Hebrews became Israelites and a nation.

Now to the word Messiah the root of the word comes from Hebrew from the word Mishcha or Cream.
Sea Samuel under Prophets.
The act of announcing a king in the ancient times was by the Hebrew word Meshicha, Creaming a circle on the head of the dedicated king. The Mishcha or Cream was olive oil. The one that had suffered the action of Meshicha, Creaming was called in Hebrew Mashiach or Messiah.

Baptizing, the baptizing is a symbol of purity, in fact in Judaism the more you baptize in the springs of the Galilee the more pure you are. In Judaism Baptizing is the Mikveh, that tradition remained till today. Women are baptizing prior marriage. When converting to Judaism you baptize and Orthodox are baptize. So that tradition was used by Jesus was not new it was part of his life, he is a Jew John the baptize Yohanan-Hmatbil was trying to purify his flock and followers. Nothing new in that it was and is Jewish Tradition. Moreover excavations reviled Mikves from that time.

As for Jesus death, Josephus Plavious, Yesoff Ben Mathityahu was a military leader from the Galilee living at that time during the big revolt. He had crossed the lines and provided accurate information of sequence of events took place at revolt and destruction time. His details were proven to be correct during excavations done at the old city, and on the Gollan Heights at the city of Gamlla. However his book was preserved and translated into Latin where the story of Jesus was implanted in. The problem with that is that each one lived in different times Jesus from 0-21AC and Josephus Plavious during 40-90AC. In addition a second version of Josephus Plavious notes was preserved in Arabic where there, Jesus is not mentioned at all. That is strange since Jesus is also a Prophet mentioned in the Holly Koran, and in the Mirage of Mohammad according to Islamic Fate they met when Mohammad climbed to the sky from Jerusalem, there he met Jesus Moses and Eliyahu Alyssa.

Christianity was a sect of Judaism and was opened later by removing the ancient Christians restrictions which were the Jewish laws obeyed by Jesus. Shaul-Hatarsi had opened it to many followers.
Therefore it would be against the fate of Christianity to prosecute Jews.
Why then it was, since at the middle ages there were many other interest of power and govern of the Churches and that was a way of regimes and Church to blame the Jews for all the bad happening there. It was manipulation that caused tragically anti-Semitism.
As for the film, at the beginning the script was in Aramaic language, which was not spoken at that time frame in Judea province. Language spoken was Greek Latin and Hebrew.
Second Jews are the sons of Judea tribe the word is a late word, Jews are not Israelites, which are all the tribes.

Priests were Cohen and Levies which all came from the tribe of Levi.
Cohens are the sons of Aaron the Cohen the brother of Moses both from the tribe of Levi.
King David Dynasty was destroyed by the Babylonians due to the revolt they did.
Jews of today are remains of Judea Yehuda tribe and Benyamin Benjamin the tribe of king Saul.
The colony name was the Province of Judea not Israel.

The point here in this whole discussion is to show the inaccuracy of the film facts due to inaccurate information.
Moreover the distance of events and the controversy in facts raise a lot of question marks.
Hence Gibbson Film is a bit inaccurate in a gentle way.
That is kind of concern since it may bring a break of hate.

Both fates live in Harmony today and Pope John Paul was doing a great deal of effort to clean the incorrect facts accusing Jews for Killing Jesus and reminding all he is a Jew.
He followed Jewish laws as a proof he did his Passover Seder and eaten Matzos and all according to Judaism.

Kol Toov.

Does Gabler mention how many of the Jews in the movie industry were collaborating with the Communists in the 40's and 50's?

Several Clarifications and accuracies questions.

Jesus by the Hebrew name Yehosoua, Joshua was born in Nazareth.
The city of Nazareth is at the north of Israel at the low Galilee.
However there is a debate on that fact.
In Hebrew till today the root of the word Nazareth is Nazir a Monk meaning one that excludes himself out.
grows long hair and warship god. The first monk mentioned in Bible was Samson at the book of Judges.
He had stratified the Biblical Hebrew definition of a Monk.

The second problem is Jesus birthplace.
According to tradition he was born in Beit-Lechm which all know at the South of Judea Mountains, in Biblical times the Judah Tribe territory.
However there is a problem with that argument. The distance and the description between the labors Miriam had and delivery or birth. There is an additional Bet-Lechem at the Galilee called The Galilee Beit-Lechem. It is 20 minutes drive from Nazareth and at those ancient days a couple of hours maximum on a mule or donkey was the time to travel from Nazareth to The Galilee Bet-Lehem.

Translation, The Bible was translated by what so called the translation of the seventy for the seventy scholars did that. The New Testament was written in Hebrew and was translated into Greek and then Latin.
Miriam was described in the original scripts written in Hebrew as a young pretty woman, young woman in Hebrew Alma. The translation was converting it into a virgin.

At the beginning old followers of Jesus were Jewish, it was a sect among many others at that time such as the Isians Prushim Tzdokim living in the Judea desert. The Dead Sea scrolls had reveled some of that culture social life at the city of Komran.
Amazingly Jesus was never mentioned there even though he was a great leader at that time.
The sects Isians Prushim Tzdokim were Nazirim monks by Hebrew definition. Jesus was located and acting mainly in the Galilee but was affected by these sects. He mentored for tolerance love of the others which all were in fact the foundations of Jewish fate. Rabbi Akiva said Vehavta Lereach Kamocha Love Your Friend as You Love Yourself. It was based upon the Jewish laws.
Moreover Komran Dead-Sea scrolls were written in Hebrew, and the full book of Isaiah, Ysha’a’ya’hoo was found with some new chapters all presented at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.

Back to our sects the main motive of these sects was isolation and study for judgment day. In the Dead Sea scrolls they describe the philosophy of that apocalyptic vision as the war between the light and darkness.
These sects were extremely Orthodox Jews by our days.
So the ancient followers of Jesus which was a Jew and mentored Judaism obeying Jewish laws since this was God Command in the covenant moment at the Sinai-Mountain with Moses in front the entire Israelites.
This was the moment when the Hebrews became Israelites and a nation.

Now to the word Messiah the root of the word comes from Hebrew from the word Mishcha or Cream.
See Samuel under Prophets.
The act of announcing a king in the ancient times was by the Hebrew word Meshicha, Creaming a circle on the head of the dedicated king. The Mishcha or Cream was olive oil. The one that had suffered the action of Meshicha, Creaming was called in Hebrew Mashiach or Messiah.

Baptizing, the baptizing is a symbol of purity, in fact in Judaism the more you baptize in the springs of the Galilee the more pure you are. In Judaism Baptizing is the Mikveh, that tradition remained till today. Women are baptizing prior marriage. When converting to Judaism you baptize and Orthodox are baptize. So that tradition was used by Jesus was not new it was part of his life, he is a Jew John the baptize Yohanan-Hmatbil was trying to purify his flock and followers. Nothing new in that, it was and is Jewish Tradition. Moreover excavations reviled Mikves from that time.

As for Jesus death, Josephus Plavious, Yesoff Ben Mathityahu was a military leader from the Galilee living at that time during the big revolt. He had crossed the lines and provided accurate information of sequence of events took place at revolt and destruction time. His details were proven to be correct during excavations done at the old city, and on the Gollan Heights at the city of Gamlla. However his book was preserved and translated into Latin where the story of Jesus was implanted in. The problem with that is that each one lived in different times Jesus from 0-21AC and Josephus Plavious during 40-90AC. In addition a second version of Josephus Plavious notes was preserved in Arabic where there, Jesus is not mentioned at all. That is strange since Jesus is also a Prophet mentioned in the Holly Koran, and in the Mirage of Mohammad according to Islamic Fate they met when Mohammad climbed to the sky from Jerusalem, there he met Jesus Moses and Eliyahu Alyssa.

Christianity was a sect of Judaism and was opened later by removing the ancient Christians restrictions which were the Jewish laws obeyed by Jesus. Shaul-Hatarsi had opened it to many followers.
Therefore it would be against the fate of Christianity to prosecute Jews.
Why then it was, since at the middle ages there were many other interest of power and govern of the Churches and that was a way of regimes and Church to blame the Jews for all the bad happening there. It was manipulation that caused tragically anti-Semitism.
As for the film, at the beginning the script was in Aramaic language, which was not spoken at that time frame in Judea province. Language spoken was Greek Latin and Hebrew.
Second Jews are the sons of Judea tribe the word is a late word, Jews are not Israelites, which are all the tribes.

Priests were Cohen and Levies which all came from the tribe of Levi.
Cohens are the sons of Aaron the Cohen the brother of Moses both from the tribe of Levi.
King David Dynasty was destroyed by the Babylonians due to the revolt they did.
Jews of today are remains of Judea Yehuda tribe Levi tribe and Benyamin tribe Benjamin the tribe of king Saul.
The colony name was the Province of Judea not Israel.

The point here in this whole discussion is to show the inaccuracy of the film facts due to inaccurate information.
Moreover the distance of events and the controversy in facts raise a lot of question marks.
Hence Gibbson Film is a bit inaccurate in a gentle way.
That is kind of concern since it may bring a break of hate.

Both fates live in Harmony today and Pope John Paul was doing a great deal of effort to clean the incorrect facts accusing Jews for Killing Jesus and reminding all he is a Jew.
He followed Jewish laws as a proof he did his Passover Seder and eaten Matzos and all according to Judaism.

Kol Toov.

Good Grief! Because Pontius Pilate was a Roman, now the Catholics are to blame for the crucifixion?

as demonstrated over the centuries

That remark confuses me. Are you blaming all the problems of the Jews on Christianity?

Mel has said, that is what all the objection is about.