Local forum discusses Iraq war

The Loveland Reporter Herald ^ | 03/10/03 | Pamela Dickman

[fivetoes]

American flags - handheld flags as well as depictions on clothing - stood out in a sea of people gathered Sunday to talk about the possible war in Iraq.

Among the crowd were people whose opinions, ages and backgrounds varied as much as the words spoken by the four panelists aligned on both sides of whether war is the answer.

During the forum at the library, Tom Buchanan and Greg Snyder advocated war while David Carr and Mark Easter favored continued, tough U.N. inspections.

All seemed to agree that something needs to be done to disarm Saddam Hussein and to stop the horrors he has imposed on his people and could continue to impose worldwide. However, they disagreed on how to accomplish that.

Easter is a former Air Force adviser in Saudi Arabia and is a botanist at Colorado State University. Aligned with him was Carr, a former state department officer with experience in the Middle East and economics training.

Buchanan is a former Marine who works in the computer field, while Snyder is a longtime constitutional activist who has run for office and works in refrigeration.

Rather than hurry to war, the United States should support the continued, tough weapons inspections going on now in Iraq, Easter said. The country should continue to pressure for that and for Hussein to comply with U.N. standards and disarm, he said.

At the same time, the goal should be to settle the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to ease tensions in the region, Carr said.

War would be costly - over $100 billion - and deadly, and it is not supported by many countries and is not justified, they said.

However, Buchanan and Snyder said the United States needs to take firm action now.

While he would like to see the world unite, stand up to Hussein and effect a peaceful end, Buchanan said he supports military action to thwart the evil of Saddam Hussein.

Snyder noted that some countries, namely France and Germany, as well as citizens who have protested worldwide do not support war.

Full agreement is not needed for war, Snyder said. In fact, he said, there were dissenters for all wars in history, and war is needed now.

"War created this country," Snyder said. "War stopped slavery. War stopped communism and Nazism ..."

All the panelists conceded that there would be a long haul ahead after a successful war, and there is no clear picture on how a new regime would unfold.

The differing opinions stood out in the answers to a question posed by an audience member, whose relative who lost a son in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The mother does not want other mothers to lose a child and feel as she does, so the resident asked if the panelists believe there is time for the U.N. process to work before rushing to war.

"No," Buchanan said simply.

Then after a pause, he expanded, "This is all on the hands of one man, Saddam Hussein. He has the initiative. The U.N. has given him an ultimatum to disarm, to come clean. This is up to him."

Again and again over the last 10 years, Hussein has not complied with U.N. agreements, he said. It is now time for action, he said.

However, Easter argued that there is time for diplomacy. A reworked inspection process that is administered with intense pressure on the Iraqi regime and renewed vigor could work, he said.

Those differing lines of thought continued throughout the night as the panelists answered more than 10 community-posed questions.

Then as the more than 70 residents left the forum, pockets of people continued their discussions in an atmosphere of calm disagreement as well as solidarity.

And as the crowd left, State Sen. Steve Johnson encouraged residents to let their national representatives know their feelings on Iraq. The he spoke of common themes expressed Sunday.

"We all love our country," Johnson said.

"It's important to remember that. I think we all support our troops and appreciate the sacrifices they are making."

One of the organizers, Bob Davidson, added, "Patriotism has lots of shades. It has lots of hues."

[fivetoes]

It was much different Freeping them at four feet as opposed to across the street. Their eyeballs get real big when you point out that they are being manipulated by organizations who's main thrust is to destroy America.

[fivetoes]

Here's my report from the behind the table.

There was a forum on the Iraq situation at the Loveland public library. This was set up two weeks ago while FReeping the Loveland anti-war protesters. I was approached by Bob Davidson to see if I wanted to participate in a forum to find common ground on how to deal with the situation in Iraq.

I told him that I could probably find some people to join me on the stipulation that we would not be portrayed as pro-war because I do not know anyone on our side of the street that is pro-war. He agreed and we also agreed that Saddam was evil and had to go.

There were two planning meetings. I missed the first one due to a conflict. At the second one we established some ground rules. The most important for us was that the questions would be written and people would not be allowed stand up and verbally voice their questions. We felt that it would lend itself to too much emotion.

The first part would be five minute presentations by the four panelists followed by written questions from the audience and finishing up with a wrap up of common themes throughout the evening.

First of all I have never been on a panel such as this where you get on the spot questions. I brought along a ton of research material including all of the UN resolutions that 1441 refers to. The hardest part was getting a two and a half hour opening statement pared down to 5 minutes and still make your point. LOL At the planning meeting we decided to answer the question Why do you stand on the corner and why are you for or against President Bush's Iraq policy?

I think I may have ticked a few lefties off when I explained why I have taken up positions on the corners of Colorado. The text of my opening statement will be posted.

I asked FReeper softengine if she would participate on the panel if need be. We decided to only have two panelists on each side. Greg Snyder a local Republican and veteran of the Greeley UNC forum last month was our other panelist. Softengine agreed to assume the position of recorder and write the questions and summorizations of the answers on the paper on the walls. It was probably the busiest job of the evening. She handled it well.

I don't remember much about the evening as a whole as it required a lot of attention to try and answer the questions. Each side got two minutes each to answer every question. I remember some of the answers I gave. One question was asked, If the U.S. did not have 300,000 troops at the Iraqi border would there be inspections? The other side went first and rambled on . When it was asked of me I just said NO. The crowd looked a little confused at such a short answer to a rather simple question.

Another question was about the oil angle of the war. Greg was well versed and rattled figures off the top of his head. I remeber he said something about all of the mopney that Saddam owes France and Germany and if he is no longer in power they wil no be able to collect. I suppose they could sue him, afterall his personal fortune is over $2,000,000,000.00 I did get a dig in and said that I had a solution to the dependence on foreign oil. I simply said Drill ANWR. Some on our side laughed, but I don't think they thought it was too funny. They always seem to get perplexed when this is mentioned.

Any way some of my Republican friends showed up and FReepers weldgophardline and mollynme showed up to lend support. We were outnumbered, but as always, not outclassed. I brought along my flag table display. It contained the US flag, the POW flag and the Marine Corps flag. One of the lefties saw the display and came over and asked me if the red one was a Marine Corps flag. He had an attitude like he wanted to censor my flag collection. I told him that yes, it was a Marine Corps flag and it wasn't going anywhere.

Your truly, sans hat, pondering a question. I can smell wood burning. lol

The lovely and talented softengine recording the evening's comments.

Our State Senator Steve Johnson addressing the audience during the wrap up session.

All in all it was an ok experience. I don't know if anything will come of it, but it was fun gathering resourses and putting it together. I was kind of nervous and focused on answering questions. I don't think I would do well at Jeopardy! So perhaps some of the other FReepers that were there will give their views of the evening.

Here is my opening statement. I cut a few corners due to time constraints.

At our planning meeting on March 3rd it was decided that we would answer the question: Why do I stand on the corner and take the position that I do?

First of all, I'm not pro-war. War is a last resort. I think we can all agree that Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator that must be disarmed. The best thing that could happen is that a united world would rise up against him and force him to disarm without bloodshed.

What prompted me to first take a stand to support our troops is that I noticed that the 'anti war' movement was taking similar positions throughout America, carrying the same No Iraq War signs and chanting the same chants? They also implicated the United States as evil dictators. Before I took the time to stand on the corner I wanted to know who was behind the anti war movement and what was their agenda?

It has been described as a grassroots movement that just sprang up over night. There's no way a worldwide movement like this just happens. Somebody is behind it.

What I found was The main organizations behind these demonstrations do not have a principled opposition to war. They are committed to undermining the foreign policy and security of the United States. They exploit the idealism of whatever mainstream people can be persuaded to join them. They are the International Action Center (IAC), Act Now to Stop War and End Racism, known as International ANSWER, and United for Peace and Justice (UPJ). IAC and ANSWER are front groups of the Workers World Party (WWP), a tiny Marxist-Leninist group whose leaders display a fanatical devotion to present and past North Korean dictators. The leaders of the United for Peace and Justice built their political-organizing careers in the old Soviet-funded Communist Party USA (CPUSA).

Many of these of groups share the same address in New York and phone number. For example: 39 West 14th Street, Room 206 is shared by International A.N.S.W.E.R and International Action Center along with National Peoples Campaign and Anarchism in New York.
339 Lafayette St. is home to War Resisters League, Not In Our Name! And is The Socialist Party's National Office

Another interesting site proclaims in their charter that : We will work with any group that opposes Bush Occupation and the policies of the Bush administration. All of the local peace protests are listed on their site.

The theme of many of these protests not so much peace, but a direct assault on the United States of America. We all want peace. I would probably not even be on the corners if the peace protesters truly want peace, but when I see so called peace groups across America using our flag as a floor mat and then proclaiming to be loyal Americans, the hair on the back of my neck stands up and I get a little defensive.

Thirty years ago I was an active member of the United States Marine Corps. When they returned from Vietnam, many of my fellow Marines were met with protesters who spit on them and called them baby killers. This despicable action grew from those who protested that war. I do not want to see this repeated!

Armed with this information I cannot just stand by and watch this great nation be torn apart by communism. I do not just see anti-war protesters. I see people out to bring down America. And that is why I standing on the corner of Mulberry and College in Fort Collins since the first Saturday in June of 2002.

Why I Support President Bush

I am no fan of the United Nations, but since we are members and have been requested by the United Nations to enforce the resolutions requiring Iraq to immediately provide accurate, full, final and complete disclosure of its weapons, we should live up to our obligations.

Saddam has not complied with seventeen UN Resolutions (UNSCR) since a cease-fire was initiated in 1991. The United Nations has made it clear that Saddam must disarm. He will only adhere to the resolutions when there is a credible threat to force him to do so. The reality is that we have never stopped being at war with Iraq. Perhaps it is time to end it.

The most recent, 1441 unanimously passed the Security Council on November 8, 2002. As I see it, this is not a matter of the United States acting unilaterally as the media would have us believe, but rather the some members of the Security Council shrugging their obligation to force Saddam to disarm.

If the goal of the anti-war protestors is indeed peace, then they should unite against the real tyrant. The phrase United We Stand, sometimes means what it says! Siding with Saddam against the enforcement of the UN resolutions gives him de facto allies in his obstinate disregard for the wishes of the civil world.

I believe that principles of good and evil are constant through all levels of society. The same principles that guide us as individuals, as families, as our local community should also guide us as nations.

If you knew a neighbor of yours was torturing, raping and murdering his children in his house, would you stand by and ignore their screams? Would you join a group of protestors to tell the police that they have no right to enter his house because he has done nothing to anyone outside his home? What would you do?

Saddam's constant and horrific abuse, torture, rape and murder of his people is no different.

Evil is evil, whether it is a bully terrorizing a neighborhood or a dictator brutalizing his citizens. We should have the courage to face evil, look it in the eye, and take action to eradicate it so that there may be peace in the world.

Edmund Burke said, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”.

[fivetoes]

Oops, I almost forgot my references. There is absolutely nothing like backing up your statements with facts.

i Free Republic http://www.freerepublic.com
ii International Action Center http://www.iacenter.org/
iii International ANSWER http://www.internationalanswer.org/
iv United for Peace and Justice http://www.justicewithpeace.org
vCitizens For Legitimate Government http://www.legitgov.org/
vi
vii UN Resolution 678 of 1990 Requests that all States provide appropriate support for the actions undertaken in paragraph 2

I did compile a list of resources for reference here Resources for Debating Lefties

[Trteamer]

Way to go fivetoes! Thanks for all the hard work softengine!

I couldn't make it but I'm glad you were there to embarrass and outdo the leftists.

Great Job.

[jwalsh07]

Excellent, my man, excellent. Amry hat's off to you.

[jwalsh07]

A USMC bump.

[twntaipan]

bttt

[RandallFlagg]

That event sounded great. Almost makes me feel like if I WOULD have shown up, there'd be chairs-a-flyin' and Jerry Springer-a-smilin'! Please don't take that statement wrong. I'm still having withdrawls; those arguments I got into with the antibushers on the 1st have got me really riled for my next clash with them. Did I mention that I met my first "human shields" that day in Longmont?

I'm simply DYING to FReep. I'm due for a vacation and I'm taking it from March 17-28. That means I'll be able to FReep on the 22nd. I'm making a HUGE sign and I'm doing a bit of research on things to blare at the Americahaters. Little, painful things. Like, "Do you people really think you're in the majority?! How many of you are students? If you did your little "Walk-out" protest, then I've got some numbers for ya!" Then I'd read some of these figures:

College	Enrollment	# of Protesters	% of students not protesting
Stanford University	7,886	300	96.20%
University of Maryland	24,638	500	97.97%
Marquette University	7,496	40	99.47%
Penn State University	34,406	1,500	95.64%
Miami University (Ohio)	14,914	125	99.16%
University of North Carolina (Chapel Hill)	15,608	100	99.36%
Virginia Commonwealth University	16,505	2	99.99%
Rice University	2,856	200	93.00%
New York University	18,628	100	99.46%
University of California (Berkeley)	22,593	300	98.67%
Rutgers University	27,939	80	99.71%

Make them feel really small.

Being that I really haven't had any more letters from our troops to read to them (I'll bet that our fighters have been real busy lately), I thought that I'd crank it up a notch, again.

If you know anyone else that has some good stuff I can read to them, send 'em (FReepmail) to me.

 

[weldgophardline]

It was a good job done by fivetoes & Greg they did the best by putting the facts out on the table, the lefists could not dispute the facts all they cold come up with is that
it is going to cost a lot of money to fight the war I guess if it was not to happen and a terrorist did get WMD and used it here in the states the cost would not matter then. what a bunch of hypocrites. We know that they would be the first to scream bloody murder.
I will be looking for you on the 22nd I got one or two for you to feed on.

[RandallFlagg]

all they cold come up with is that it is going to cost a lot of money to fight the war

WHAAAAATTT???? I can tell you exactly how much this war is going to cost. $320.00. That's it! Three-Hundred and twenty dollars for everyone in The United States. If that's the best that they could do, then I really missed out on some lefty-bashing...

[fivetoes]

I had one elderly gentleman come up to me afterwards and he suggested that I should tone down the the references made about the organizers being communists. He said that he and the people he stands on the corners to protest the war would be against those organizations. I explained top him that people like him who did things without knowing who was giving the orders are what Stalin called 'useful idiots'.

I was trying trying to be kind because he was so innocent. I then told him a old Russian prververb 'Show me your friends and I will tell you who you are'.

[RandallFlagg]

Yeah, I can understand the being kind part. It's hard to be kind to a couple of college boys saying, "I'd be proud to be a human shield."

Of course, my response was, "Then GO! LEAVE! You hate my country so much then get out and die for your savior, saddam!"

I was a bit riled that day. I sure miss it! See ya on the 22nd!

[beaversmom]

Wow, great courage to get up there and answer questions. Your speech was very well researched and written and I'm sure well stated. Personally, I'm getting very fed up with all the idiocy that is going on in this world and especially the idiocy that is coming from Americans.

As in what your esteemed panelist said: However, Easter argued that there is time for diplomacy. A reworked inspection process that is administered with intense pressure on the Iraqi regime and renewed vigor could work, he said.

Why is it important to continue what has failed for over a decade? How can you have diplomacy with a despot who is hell bent on killing however many people to stay in power and save his own you know what? The lunacy that is going on in this country from some seemingly normal people is amazing.

One of the lines from your speech that I liked: Siding with Saddam against the enforcement of the UN resolutions gives him de facto allies in his obstinate disregard for the wishes of the civil world. Saddam and Osama are comforted by all the idiots in the West. Saddam probably thinks there is some way that he can survive this latest go around and maybe there will be a way for him to do just that. I sure hope not--I'm praying every day for his head to end up on a stick and his body to be dragged through the streets of Bagdad

I heard today on Medved's radio prgram that Iraqi radio is playing some new Madonna song every hour--some song that is against the U.S. I hope that "B"'s career continues to go down the tubes.

Anyway, great job getting up and representing what the majority of right thinking Americans believe.

[beaversmom]

"I'd be proud to be a human shield." They'd be proud to be a human shield if being one didn't mean being put in harms way. You saw how all the British ones scurried when they figured out what Saddam was asking of them.

[BikerTrash]

Great job! Proud of ya!

FWIW, next time the "war for oil" stupidity is brought up, tell them that oil men are absolutely not known for lack of foresight, and Iraq's oil would be run through our vehicles by now from the first Gulf War if that's what this was about.