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Unpatriotic Conservatives
National Review Online ^ | 4/7/03 (advance) | David Frum

Posted on 03/19/2003 7:57:38 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine

"I respect and admire the French, who have been a far greater nation than we shall ever be, that is, if greatness means anything loftier than money and bombs."
— THOMAS FLEMING, "HARD RIGHT," MARCH 13, 2003

rom the very beginning of the War on Terror, there has been dissent, and as the war has proceeded to Iraq, the dissent has grown more radical and more vociferous. Perhaps that was to be expected. But here is what never could have been: Some of the leading figures in this antiwar movement call themselves "conservatives."

These conservatives are relatively few in number, but their ambitions are large. They aspire to reinvent conservative ideology: to junk the 50-year-old conservative commitment to defend American interests and values throughout the world — the commitment that inspired the founding of this magazine — in favor of a fearful policy of ignoring threats and appeasing enemies.

And they are exerting influence. When Richard Perle appeared on Meet the Press on February 23 of this year, Tim Russert asked him, "Can you assure American viewers . . . that we're in this situation against Saddam Hussein and his removal for American security interests? And what would be the link in terms of Israel?" Perle rebutted the allegation. But what a grand victory for the antiwar conservatives that Russert felt he had to air it.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: oldcons; paleocons; pitchforkpat
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Glad somebody finally said it.
1 posted on 03/19/2003 7:57:38 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: wimpycat; Poohbah; DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Catspaw; BlueLancer; Long Cut; Dog Gone; Bluntpoint; ...
Paleo shredding here!
3 posted on 03/19/2003 7:59:36 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
PJB is the most negative destructive person out there
4 posted on 03/19/2003 8:00:17 AM PST by MJY1288 (We're About to Roll)
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To: JohnGalt; Protagoras; billbears
Over here, boys.
5 posted on 03/19/2003 8:01:02 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Just curious. Why did you ping me to this thread?
6 posted on 03/19/2003 8:05:11 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Protagoras
Because you often make the same case as these folks.
7 posted on 03/19/2003 8:06:50 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: MJY1288
PJB is the most negative destructive person out there

Pat has been attempting to make himself appear relavent for a good many years. As shown in the last presidential election, it hasn't worked.

8 posted on 03/19/2003 8:07:51 AM PST by curmudgeonII
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Having quickly decided that the War on Terror was a Jewish war, the paleos equally swiftly concluded that they wanted no part of it.

Precisely the issue, along with the whiff of anti-semitism from the paleos.

9 posted on 03/19/2003 8:08:34 AM PST by Catspaw
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Bump. This should get interesting.
10 posted on 03/19/2003 8:08:54 AM PST by Constitution Day (** RALLY FOR AMERICA: Raleigh, NC ** http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/861481/posts)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Because you often make the same case as these folks>

Hey, I'm against Empire building. Does that make me an "America-Hater"?

11 posted on 03/19/2003 8:09:07 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Catspaw
yup - when it comes down to it, the only real difference between a self described paleocon and a Nazi is that the Nazi is proud of his symbols and the heritage he represents.

The paleocon knows better, and is too embarrassed to state his beliefs openly.

12 posted on 03/19/2003 8:10:57 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Because you often make the same case as these folks.?

Please cite those times. As usual you are confused.

13 posted on 03/19/2003 8:12:19 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Sangamon Kid
When a permanent American military governor is appointed for Iraq, I'll concede that the US is engaged in empire building.

I expect that you'll be waiting a long time for that concession.

14 posted on 03/19/2003 8:12:54 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Buchanan, Joe Sobran, and others of their ilk are motivated by several factors:

1. As old-line, traditionalist Catholics, they share the Islamic sense that the West is decadent and no longer deserves Divine protection.

2. They are anti-Israel and possibly anti-semitic, and oppose any mid-East policy which they see as even indirectly beneficial to Israel.

3. They are isolationist and share the Founding Fathers' distrust of standing armies and complex international treaties, agreements, and commitments.

4. They are staunch believers in the 9th and 10th Amendments, and feel that mainstream Republicanism has abandoned any pretense of defending the traditional concept of Federalism.

All of these factors, plus a pro-Europe bias, tend to make them oppose Bush both personally and ideologically.
15 posted on 03/19/2003 8:13:33 AM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: Protagoras
I am not going to run off on one of your little "show me where I said that" errands - I don't know why you enjoy it, I think its a little sick.
16 posted on 03/19/2003 8:14:34 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: MJY1288
Why is it that when someone like PJB dares to question all this alleged conventional wisdom and refuses to fall in line with other useful media idiots that it somehow translates into negative and destructive?
17 posted on 03/19/2003 8:15:52 AM PST by american spirit
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
When a permanent American military governor is appointed for Iraq, I'll concede that the US is engaged in empire building.

You are so naieve. Don't you know the plan? Our military will park it's collective ass in the Middle East and won't move for a long, long time.

18 posted on 03/19/2003 8:17:00 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Ah, feel the love; the insane Left meets the insane Right in a big Jew-baiting, America-hating conspiracy kook group hug. Pat Buchanan, Noam Chomsky, Joe Sobran, John Pilger, Thomas Fleming, Robert Fisk; Get a room, you guys.

Kudos to NR and David Frum for pointing out the obvious; Buchanan and his ilk are no longer distinguishable from either David Duke or ANSWER.

19 posted on 03/19/2003 8:17:23 AM PST by IowaHawk
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To: MJY1288
ditto that BIG TIME
to me Pat is in it for the money now
20 posted on 03/19/2003 8:18:10 AM PST by cactusSharp
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
The only comment I can make is "F***in' A, Bubba!"
21 posted on 03/19/2003 8:19:59 AM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
This is a good article, but the author used some pretty poor examples of "anti-American" sentiment among these people.

In his column of December 26, 2002, Robert Novak attacked Condoleezza Rice for citing Hezbollah, instead of al-Qaeda, as the world's most dangerous terrorist organization: "In truth, Hezbollah is the world's most dangerous terrorist organization from Israel's standpoint. While viciously anti-American in rhetoric, the Lebanon-based Hezbollah is focused on the destruction of Israel. 'Outside this fight [against Israel], we have done nothing,' Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the organization's secretary-general, said in a recent New York Times interview." The sheik did not say, and Novak did not bother to add, that Hezbollah twice bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, murdering more than 60 people, and drove a suicide bomb into a Marine barracks in October 1983, killing 241 servicemen.

I think Novak was right on target for attacking Condoleeza Rice on this one. In fact, the Beirut incidents were one of the few cases in which the Reagan administration can rightly be criticized for its approach to a foreign policy matter.

I posted many concerns about the "war in Afghanistan" here on FreeRepublic, but not because I believed the U.S. efforts there would be futile. It simply made no sense to me (and still does not to this day) to have the U.S. wage war in a foreign nation after 9/11 without first (or simultaneously) sacking the bureaucrats throughout the U.S. government who utter incompetence made 9/11 possible in the first place.

Although he had denied any vital American interest in either Kuwait's oilfields or Iraq's oilfields or its aggression, in l991 he urged that the Sixth Fleet be sent to Dubrovnik to shield the Catholics of Croatia from Serbian attack. "Croatia is not some faraway desert emirate," he explained. "It is a 'piece of the continent, a part of the main,' a Western republic that belonged to the Habsburg empire and was for centuries the first line of defense of Christian Europe. For their ceaseless resistance to the Ottoman Turks, Croatia was proclaimed by Pope Leo X to be the 'Antemurale Christianitatis,' the bulwark of Christianity."

This passage itself is deceptive because it is incomplete. While it is true that Buchanan supported U.S. intervention on behalf of Croatia, his rationale was not limited to the religious babbling you see here. It was Buchanan (and nobody else, BTW) who pointed out that Dubrovnik at one time was part of a small city-state on the Adriatic Sea called Raguso, which happened to be one of the first countries in the world to officially recognize the Thirteen Colonies as an independent nation.

22 posted on 03/19/2003 8:21:34 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: IowaHawk
Yes, there does seem to be a place where the far left and the far right seem to coalesce. About the only difference between the two groups are in areas like abortion, sexual morality, and religious belief.
23 posted on 03/19/2003 8:21:44 AM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
I am not going to run off on one of your little "show me where I said that" errands

It's quite a good dodge, lie, then deny. LOL

I don't know why you enjoy it,

I enjoy exposing liars. You lied, you got caught, again.

24 posted on 03/19/2003 8:23:12 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Steve_Seattle
Is it bad that the Founding Fathers distrusted standing armies and entangling alliances?
25 posted on 03/19/2003 8:24:41 AM PST by Sid Rich
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To: All
Anyone who wants to know what I think about the war is welcome to ask. To believe the filthy liar who pinged me to this thread would be to err.

And no, I don't think that anyone should care about my opinions more than anyone elses. I'm just defending against slander.

26 posted on 03/19/2003 8:27:01 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: american spirit
Why is it that when someone like PJB dares to question all this alleged conventional wisdom and refuses to fall in line with other useful media idiots that it somehow translates into negative and destructive?

My thoughts.

As Pat is one of the few honest public figures out there with the backbone to bring attention to the epic invasion of millions of illegals, and the disgraceful, open border time bomb..While our elected leaders stand in stone cold silence, as their own constituents scream for relief, year after year....

27 posted on 03/19/2003 8:28:54 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
This is a good effort from the urban Canadian and he even resisted calling Mssr. Fleming and the entire paleo-conservative cabal anti-Semites. He has clearly matured as a critic.

The question is will you read the full lexicon of our movement so you understand where we are coming from or will you just trust an urban elite intellecutal from Canada who was kicked out of the Bush administration for an act of Hubris?

PS: Frum missed the influence of Murray Rothbard, an urban Jew from New York, on just about all the characters he mentioned. I suggest he try to get a grasp on him and why paleo-libertarians made strange bedfellow with the Buchanan brigades before he concludes what I hope is a serious look at the post-Cold War conservative movement.

28 posted on 03/19/2003 8:31:33 AM PST by JohnGalt
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To: Protagoras
So I suppose that you now support the war effort?
29 posted on 03/19/2003 8:32:08 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Catspaw
Precisely the issue, along with the whiff of anti-semitism from the paleos.

"Whiff" of anti-semitism? Try "DefCon-6, 6000 hog feedlot power stench".

30 posted on 03/19/2003 8:32:50 AM PST by IowaHawk
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Steve_Seattle
There's nothing wrong with Reason #4, is there?

As old-line, traditionalist Catholics, they share the Islamic sense that the West is decadent and no longer deserves Divine protection.

I read an interesting article some time ago about the Islamic revolution in Iran. Apparently the U.S. Embassy was the second building the Islamic fundamentalists sacked when they toppled the Shah in 1979 -- the first was the Tehran headquarters of Planned Parenthood.

Not that this fact changes anything in terms of how the U.S. should have dealt with the events in Iran in 1979, but it gives an interesting perspective on how some f these nations must feel whenever they show up at a U.N. conference on women, health care, "families," etc. and find themselves seated across the table from a bunch of ugly, screeching banshees representing the U.S. and other Western countries.

32 posted on 03/19/2003 8:35:05 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Protagoras
Again I ask if you currently support this war effort, as it stands, right now? Its really easy - yes or no.
33 posted on 03/19/2003 8:39:04 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Chancellor Palpatine
Should read "How the NeoCons have turned their backs on Conservatism". Well it is from the NRO, the talking points of the RNC. Don't expect they'd be outing themselves so I won't look for that headline from them, eh Chance?
35 posted on 03/19/2003 8:42:26 AM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Protagoras
So be it.

Like I said, your little game is pretty sick.

36 posted on 03/19/2003 8:44:50 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: All
I support the President in this endeavor. I support our troops and I pray for them.

If a person (or a country) points a gun at you, you are within your rights to shoot them.

37 posted on 03/19/2003 8:44:53 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: billbears
I'm surprised that your post didn't go on about how neocons have been ruining America for the entire 227 years of its existence - your hyperbole has been there since the founding of the Republic, you know.
38 posted on 03/19/2003 8:47:21 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine (the NCAA is the UN of college athletics - arrogant toward the good, toothless against the bad)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Like I said, your little game is pretty sick.

Funny you should accuse him of this when it was you who baited him to this thread.

39 posted on 03/19/2003 8:49:10 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
The truth at last about Pat.

His is a reincarnation of the old isolationist conservatives of the 20s, 30s and 40s. The ones who would rather see America lose WW II than see Rooooosevelt win it.
He is AntiAmerican.

His blather on MSNBC recently about backing the President is too little and 12 years too late.

He is a Fascist and an anti-semite.
He is disgusting example of the Father Coughlin wannabe. He is something most of us thought thankfully was extinct.

So9

40 posted on 03/19/2003 8:49:42 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (JDAM the Arabs, Full Speed Ahead)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; Howlin; PhiKapMom; Miss Marple; Poohbah; dighton; mhking; rdb3; ...
Bookmarking and bumping.

David Frum has done America and the conservative movement a great service with this expose.
41 posted on 03/19/2003 8:51:15 AM PST by hchutch ("Last suckers crossed, Syndicate shot'em up" - Ice-T, "I'm Your Pusher")
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To: hchutch
It is past time for this exposure to how these rats really think and hide themselves as the real conservatives.
42 posted on 03/19/2003 8:52:43 AM PST by Grampa Dave (Stamp out Freepathons! Stop being a Freep Loader! Become a monthly donor!)
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To: Sangamon Kid
We've had permanent military bases in Germany and France for decades, recent events show just how much permanent military bases force nations to tow the American line.
43 posted on 03/19/2003 8:52:55 AM PST by discostu (This tag intentionally left blank)
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To: Servant of the Nine
He is AntiAmerican.

LOL! I just love some of these comments......

44 posted on 03/19/2003 8:53:17 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Sid Rich
It's not bad, it just doesn't work anymore. With faster than sound airplanes the world just got too damn fast to be sitting around with no army until somebody actually shoots at you. The Founding Fathers were absolutely right, but they're not anymore, it's too easy for a fast attack to be too devastating now. We need the standing army, and we need other countries on the enemies target list, preferably countries that are easier for the enemy to attack so they can be a buffer.
45 posted on 03/19/2003 8:58:20 AM PST by discostu (This tag intentionally left blank)
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To: discostu
....another naieve one. Unanimity is not the plan. We will drag them kicking and screaming if we have to. That's what Empire is all about. The agenda is not hidden. Go to the link in post #18.
46 posted on 03/19/2003 8:58:27 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Protagoras
You are a lying scumbag. You claim I have supported some postition or the other but cannot show where. You are a despicable swine.

You're off your meds again, aren't you?

So9

47 posted on 03/19/2003 9:00:18 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (We are the Hegemon. We can Do anything we damned well please.)
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To: american spirit
Why is it that when someone like PJB dares to question all this alleged conventional wisdom and refuses to fall in line with other useful media idiots that it somehow translates into negative and destructive?

Because "they" hate anyone questioning the powers that be, the one party system and the globalist plans.

48 posted on 03/19/2003 9:01:43 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Good ideological debate is always educational, that is as long as it is honest. David from is flat out dishonest. Check out this quote from his NR article:

Irving Kristol, who sometimes seemed to be the only person in America willing to accept the "neoconservative" label

Now check out the site neoconservatism.com and tell me Kristol is the only one other than paleos to accept the neocon label. Neos coined the term themselves and proudly wave it but if one who is not a member of their group uses it then it is fabricated slander and is racist code word for Jew (which not directly stated by Frum here in so many words but has been widely stated by neocon defenders as any one who follows these debates is fully aware). In short Frum is a deceitful propagandist and a malicious one at that - any conservative who is not a neocon is a racist, nazi bigot!

Speaking of ideological debates check out this list from the neoconservatism.com site -

Rival Conservative Perspectives:
*Libertarianism
*Paleoconservatism
*Religious Right

How many social conservatives knew that they were considered a rival by the neocons and not a friendly branch of the same movement?

I see that they also categorize Libertarianism as conservative - which is good but will shock and dismay many freepers who somehow feel liberty is equivalent to socialism. So the defense of individual rights, championing limited government and strict interpretation of the constitution is a rival philosophy to neoconservatism. Some of us have been arguing that for a long time and took a lot of flak for it - nice to see the neocons say it in their own words. That should end a lot of needless bickering around here.

49 posted on 03/19/2003 9:02:46 AM PST by u-89
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
They began by hating the neoconservatives. They came to hate their party and this president. They have finished by hating their country.

So there you have it. Huh? LOL!

Buchanana is AntiAmerican.

Yeah, I always thought Buchanan was some kinda unAmerican commie pinko....

50 posted on 03/19/2003 9:04:17 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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