Posted on 03/27/2003 8:26:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez
The key to doing that, is understanding who, why, and how to.
Understanding takes more effort and might innoculate against rampant fear and hatred. Too many take the easier route, imo.
Yes?
Luis, this thread is directed to the fundamentals underlying the clash of civilizations. I offered the differentiation in that regard. It would be a mistake to ignore the deep and abiding differences in Islam and other religions during this war, for the peoples to be pacified following the end of the war must be understood ... I don't think democratization will succeed anywhere near as well as our President hopes.
You really don't want to discuss Mohammed, do you? Yet he is the author of the Koran, and his evil character provides important context in which to best understand Islam. Nevermind the dismal 1,400 year record of Islam in practice, and its inherent antipathies to Western Civilization.
It took us about one tenth of that time to recognize that "true Commumism" was inherently brutal, because we could see the results wherever it was practiced. Islam is no better.
Usama bin Laden is conducting this war.
After we take care of bin Laden and the rest, we can talk about religion.
The title of this thread, which you posted, is "Understanding Islam And Its Radicals." Islam is a religion. This thread, to a great degree, is about the religion of Islam.
A proposition has been put forth: that Osama bin Laden is an Islamic radical. Is he?
Well, to answer that question we need to understand Islam, as the title of your thread indicates. Yet, how can we separate the undestanding of Islam from an undestanding of Mohammed, who is the founder of Islam?
Osama bin Laden, assuming he's still alive, would hold that his jihad is in the tradition of Mohammed's jihads. If that's true, then bin Laden is no radical; not as far as true Islam is concerned.
Therefore, all of the questions that have been raised here about Mohammed are valid. Not answering them is certainly an option, but will suggest conclusions about the strength of the "bin Laden is a radical" argument.
"Osama bin Laden, assuming he's still alive, would hold that his jihad is in the tradition of Mohammed's jihads."
Lack of knowledge leads to erroneous statements like the above.
There is no Usama bin Laden Jihad, Usama cannot issue a Jihad, Muslim law does not allow for that. Had there been a true Jihad called, our troops would be engaged in many more places than the ones we are engaged in now.
THAT is what makes bin Laden a radical, an there's the "Understanding Islam" part.
"Osama bin Laden, assuming he's still alive, would hold that his jihad is in the tradition of Mohammed's jihads."
And by the way, if a guerrilla leader emerges in Israel tomorrow, and along with his men, kills every man, woman, and child in the Palestinian sectors of Israel, he may claim that his "war" is just in the tradition of Joshua, and his attacks on the enemies of Israel in the Old Testament, but it will not be so.
"You're still avoiding Mohammed, which is understandable."
And you're still putting up strawman arguments and red herrings.
The discussion, and the article by the way, is about the Quor'an, and how some interpret it one way, and others differently.
Try reading it.
"If Paradise can be reached by works of obedience, then the Cross is of no regard. That's blasphemy toward the Lord of Heaven, the Christ of our Salvation."
This is where I just stop and wonder what we are all thinking.
This is exactly what we as Christians believe, but we can't think along these lines when we are discussing people who do not believe in Christ. Whether they are Muslims, or Jews, or Buddhists or whatever.
Imagine that a Muslim is reading half of what we write about God on this forum, and he is outraged by our blasphemy...his reaction to our religion is as irrelevant to us, as our our reaction to his is to him.
We are not here to fight Satan on Earth, the Bible tells us when that will happen, we are fighting men with twisted beliefs...period.
It us dangerous because it is designed to broaden this fight, and that will get many, many more people killed.
Was Mohammed a pedophile?
Yes, but I don't care because I do not believe him to be my Savior.
This article best expresses my views on our religion vs. theirs.
Friday, Nov 30, 2001
Do we worship the same god?
By Tony W. Cartledge
BR Editor
Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? The issue came to the fore recently when NBC News reported that popular evangelist Franklin Graham, founder of Samaritan's Purse, had described Islam as "wicked, violent and not of the same god."According to Baptist Press (BP), Graham made the comments in October, during an interview following the dedication of a chapel in Wilkesboro. NBC News contacted Graham for confirmation and broadcast the remarks on Nov. 16, the first day of Ramadan, a month-long period that Muslims consider the holiest season of the year. Graham noted that people of the Islamic faith carried out the Sept. 11 attacks. "I don't believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion," Graham said.
A firestorm of protest ensued, of course - not only from the Muslim community, but even from the White House. A spokesman for the president distanced President Bush from Graham's remarks, saying that the president "views Islam as a religion that preaches peace."
Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, also stated recently that neither Muslims nor Jews worship the same God that Christians worship.
In an Oct. 17 chapel message covered by BP and the Kentucky Western Recorder, Mohler said Jews have rejected Christ and Muslims have replaced the God of the Bible with Allah. Mohler noted that his observation "is so politically incorrect," but said the church must speak a clear message that the Christian God is the only God. "We must be clear that to reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father," he said.
So what are we to say? Do Muslims or even Jews worship the same god that Christians worship, or not?
The answer may have as much to do with semantics as with theology, but semantics are important.
In essence, the religion of Islam began in 610 A.D. when a man named Mohammed became convinced that the polytheism practiced by the Arabian tribes was wrong, and that only one god should be worshiped. Mohammed believed the angel Gabriel revealed this to him, and preached the message widely, teaching his followers the "revelations" from Gabriel that were collected and preserved as the Qur'an.
"Allah" is a poetic form of the Arabic al illah, meaning "the god." Mohammed took an incipient belief in a supreme god and promoted Allah as the only god.
Mohammed and his followers identified Allah as the god of the Old Testament, consider Abraham to be their spiritual ancestor, and revere the biblical prophets.
Muslims also consider Jesus to be a miracle-working prophet who was born of a virgin. They consider it heresy, however, to claim that Jesus is the Son of God, and reject all notions of the Trinity.
Islamic arguments against Christianity typically assert that Christians worship three gods and thus show infidelity to the one god.
The core of Islamic faith is expressed in the shahadah, sometimes translated as "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." Some English-speaking Muslims translate "There is no god but God."
Jews and Christians have more commonality in belief, and clearly refer to the same deity when we say "God." Christians believe, however, that God's self-revelation does not stop with the Old Testament but is fulfilled in the New Testament.
Whether one prefers to say that Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in different gods, as opposed to differing views of the same god, is largely a matter of semantics. From a Christian perspective, anyone who does not accept the full revelation of God through the saving work of Christ and the sustaining presence of the Holy Spirit has only a partial understanding of God.
Thus, Christians might argue that Muslims or Jews worship "a different god" because we believe their concept of God is incomplete. It is perhaps more appropriate, however, to think of Muslims and Jews as worshiping the same god, though not in His fullness.
Why does it matter? Our terminology can impact the effectiveness of our witness to any who do not accept Christ. It is essential that we keep channels of communication open by showing respect for people of other faiths, even if we believe their view of God is inadequate. Explaining Christ as the saving fulfillment and ultimate revelation of the same god is a natural and effective means of sharing our faith with Muslims and Jews. Insisting that they worship a different god altogether is bound to be counter-productive.
It is possible to be tactful in our speech without compromising our witness.---Source.
What are you going to say? That he was a pedophile?In order to skirt the issue of the character of Mohammed, you've now attempted to place Joshua on the same moral plane as Mohammed. Isn't this known in some circles as "moral relativism?"
Alexander the Great and Plato were as well.
So what?
you're still putting up strawman arguments and red herrings. The discussion, and the article by the way, is about the Quor'an, and how some interpret it one way, and others differently.Noted, and on the record.
Well this is news: consideration of Mohammed is irrelevant to the dermination of which interpretation of the Koran reveals "true Islam. Interesting.
The mental hopscotch necessary to conclude that "moderate Muslims" represent the real Islam requires real disingenuousness, not only about the loathesome character of Mohammed, but also of 1,400 years of evidence as to what happens to cultures when Islam becomes dominant.
When we have a bad seed and consistently bad fruit, we can safely conclude that the tree itself is bad.
I'm willing to give the seculars a pass, maybe. But I believe them now, learned the hard way. Their God is not my God.
"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)
""Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)
""The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)
""Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)
""Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)
""In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)
""If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).
"Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)
""Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)
"Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).
""Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)
""Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).
""O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)
""Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)
""When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)
""When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)
""How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)
""strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)
""Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
We are not here to fight Satan on Earth,Got a scriptural citation for that? You're in danger of spiraling into ecumenism.
we are fighting men with twisted beliefs...period.Again, got a scriptural citation? John tells us (1 John 3:8) that Jesus Christ came to "destroy the works of the devil." If we are to walk like him, we are to do the same. I don't recall a verse excusing us from that.
Yes, and the belief has a name: Islam.
”In order to skirt the issue of the character of Mohammed, you've now attempted to place Joshua on the same moral plane as Mohammed.”
No I haven’t…but in order to dodge my argument, you are now starting your usual “attack the individual” stuff…that’s way too predictable already Toothy.
I am discussing warfare, and the connection was between bin Laden and someone referencing Joshua in order to justify mass murder, it seems that YOU are trying to make that moral connection, not me. Your reading and comprehension skills suck…or maybe you are just spinning out of control.
” Noted, and on the record.”
Awww! Am I getting demerits Toothy?
Why do I care about who someone else worships?
Why should I care about what Mohammed may have done? Does Islam today promote pedophilia? No, they don’t…so, what’s your point then? As a matter of fact, why do you even care?
The Quor’an is the Quor’an, it can be interpreted differently by every single person who reads it, as can The Bible.
If you don’t believe that, check out the threads where Catholics and Protestants go at it, or get a true Roman Catholic to talk to you about the Rapture, or get an Advent Christian to discuss predestination, or...I could go on.
The past 1,400 years have seen a whole lot of warfare Toothy, there have been Inquisitions, witch burnings, genocide…all by nations of the west, and even more by nations of the Far East, and yes, the Middle East has seen its share as well.
There is no “Jihad” going on Toothy, bin Laden has been trying for years to get high-ranking Muslim clerics top call for a Jihad against the West, but they will not, so he has to resort to terrorism to further his goals.
Your insistence on degrading Islam as a religion, and Mohammed can only serve to unite those hundreds of millions of fence sitters out there behind bin Laden’s false Jihad, and convince them that the West does indeed hate Muslims, and wishes to destroy Islam.
You do good work Toothy, unfortunately, you do it for Usama bin Laden.
let's see the "proof"...one question before we start, when I start parsing the Bible, will you start crying that we need to read the passages in context?
You say thet the Quor'an 2:191 says "Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them"
Here's the actual quote, and what surrounds it:
"[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
It looks like Muslims are being instructed to fight against oppressors, to the death if need be, but to stop fighting them once the enemy quits trying to oppress or quits fighting.
By the way, "the limits" set by the Quor'an on fighting makes it a sin to kill non-combatants.
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