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Understanding Islam And Its Radicals
ConservativeTruth.org ^ | November 11, 2001 | Ana Barrett

Posted on 03/27/2003 8:26:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez

I was completely numb as I watched the videos of the attack on September 11. As the attack was investigated and we learned that the perpetrators were Islamic terrorists, I could not shake the thought that something in their religion made these attacks seem legitimate in their eyes.

So I started, very cautiously, to look into what Islam stands for and what it considers important. I did not want to jump to conclusions. I wanted to know the truth. As a Christian and a serious student of the Bible, I am familiar with the bloody passages of the Old Testament. For this reason I proceeded with caution in my research. My goal was to discover the truth about Islam. My research did include some limited reading of the Qur'an (known in the West as the Koran), but it mainly consisted of reading and listening to people who were very knowledgeable of the religion.

First of all, in order to understand Muslims we need to know what they think of Allah, and we need to look at their worldview. We need to understand moderate Muslims, but we also need an understanding of the radical point of view.

Dr. Samuel Schlorff, an expert on Islam with Arab World Ministries, has written an excellent paper on the religion. He makes a scholarly comparison between Christianity and Islam. Much of the information used in this article regarding the history of Islam was drawn from this paper.

Here are some key points of Islamic theology:

1. Allah is Absolutely Transcendent
Allah is unlike anything that exists. This means that Allah is completely mysterious. Muslims believe that they can know the truth about him, but they can't have any knowledge of him as a person. He is a distant god who lets only his will be known.

2. Divine Guidance
Muslims believe the Qur'an offers guidance for living life and it is usually referred to as "a guidance and mercy for believers." (Sura 27:77) Their law (the Shari'ah) consists of the Qur'an as well as other materials.

3. Islam is from Heaven
The Qur'an describes its revelation as a "sending down" of material from a heavenly being. Because it came in the Arabic language, it is referred to as a heavenly language. From this idea stems the thought that an Islamic community is of heavenly origin. Dr. Nabil Jabur was interviewed recently on Moody radio. He is the author of the book The Rumbling Volcano, which deals with radical Islam. He states that the Qur'an is comprised of recitations given by Muhammad, which Muslims believe came from Allah for specific situations. Thus, when Muhammad was experiencing a tranquil period in his life, the tolerant recitations came forth. When he was having problems with three Jewish tribes, the militant recitations came forth. The Qur'an teaches both peace and war.
Some verses dealing with tolerance are:
Sura 2:5-6 - There is no compulsion in religion.
Sura 5:82 - The nearest in affection to the believer are those who say we are Christian.
Dr. Jabur stated. "When only one side of the Qur'an is presented alone, that is not the truth."

4. A Community in Submission
The Islamic view of the world is that man is inherently good. If man is depraved by society, then any government can create a perfect society by enforcing Islamic law. Muhammad was the head of state of Medina, which Muslims believe was a perfect society. This form of Islamic government is considered by Muslims to be an example of living in true submission to divine law. This degree of submission is greater than any that exists outside of Islam. For Muslims such a community represents the kingdom of Allah on earth. They believe the future of Islam is to dominate the whole House of War (which is how they refer to the entire non-Muslim world) until it is controlled by an Islamic state. The ultimate goal is that the entire world be under Islamic law.

What does the word Islam mean? We have been told, that Islam is related to the Arabic word meaning "peace." This is partially accurate, except that the word means a specific kind of peace. A more accurate translation is "surrender" or "submission." It describes the calm that exists when a vanquished soldier lays down his arms in submission. Dr. Schlorff states, "The truth is that there is another side to Islam, a side that embraces violence 'in the way of Allah.'"

Sura 2:216 - Fighting is prescribed for you.
Sura 2:190-192 - Fight in the cause of god, those who fight you enslave them. Fight them until there is no more persecution and oppression and there prevails justice and faith in god.
Sura 9:5 - Fight and enslave infidels.

During his interview Dr. Jabur was asked what the typical Muslim would think of Osama bin Laden. Would they approve or disapprove of what he is doing? He stated that it would be possible for religious Muslims to have either opinion. Some are embarrassed by what bin Laden is doing. Others think that grievances which have existed for years have come to a head in a justified violent retaliation.

Dr. Jabur tried to illuminate the meaning of a phrase which is used by Muslims and which has not been explained to us. Jihad does not mean holy war. Jihad means "striving for god." It comes in three degrees: 1) Striving against sin in one's own life; 2) The act of motivating others to do good; and 3) Using violent means to stop a wrong act is justifiable if necessary. This third degree is the one with which we are most familiar.

After Muhammad died in Medina he was succeeded by four caliphs who ruled in his place. (A caliph is "one who comes after.") The leadership of Muhammad's Islamic society was divided. Sunnis accept that all four were legitimate. Shi'ites believe that only one, Ali, was the rightful successor. The result has been a division within the Muslim world pertaining to Islamic law and spiritual authority. That is why we do not have a single Muslim leader to whom the world can appeal to stand up and lead the Muslims of the world away from bin Laden.

Shortly after the Attack, Chuck Colson brought up some very interesting points on his radio show, Breakpoint. He stated that due to the lack of widely recognized Islamic leadership, bin Laden is attempting to unify the radical Muslims living in moderate Muslim states. He would like nothing more than to have them overthrow those states so that he can unify them and install himself as the leader of one large radical Islamic nation, and wage war against the West. As evidence of this, he pointed out that bin Laden has not shown much interest in the Palestinians in the past. Now he is speaking out in their behalf in order to gain their support.

Of course most Muslims do not support such violence as terrorism. However watching a Muslim country being bombed day after day might change the minds of even the most moderate and cause them to support bin Laden. Perhaps that is the plan: Goad Muslims into hating the West so much that anything goes. The Qur'an supports both violence and peace. They may think that they can use violence now and then have peace on their own terms later


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: islam; islamofascists; radicalislam
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Notable quotes on this thread:

"Your reading and comprehension skills suck"

"You do good work Toothy, unfortunately, you do it for Usama bin Laden."

"..Shows a definite lack of intelligence"

"...Spot The Radical Fundamentalist Religious Extremist..."

"Put the bottle down and things will become clearer when not viewed through a single malt haze"

"Fess up Toothy, you're Lanny Davis aren't you"

And then....

"BTW, lacking the intellect to continue the debate, I see that you are already launching into personal attacks....Shows a definite lack of intelligence"

As to your last point, anyway, I couldn't agree with you more.

251 posted on 03/29/2003 12:12:54 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Sabertooth
1.Me:---Wants to find the person/s who attacked us on 9/11 and completely destroy him, and anyone who helped him.
2.Saber: Wants to escalate this into a clash of civilizations, a Holy Crusade, and is parsing the Quor'an to make the case.

Well Luis, you just couldn't resist, eh? Saber is not trying to make this into a 'Holy Crusade', he's just being rational in his perspective of Islamism. I happen to agree with the first portion of the sentence, that what we are witnessing IS a clasj of civilizations; Islam injects its totalitarian 'geist' into the adherents, and if you haven't come to that conclusion yet, don't slam Saber for having done so!

It might be instructive to consider the evolution of enlightenment in Islam as the world has changed, an evolution that may be seen in men like Mansoor Ijaz as juxtaposed with Osama bin Laden and the vast majority of the irrational Arab street mentality that feeds itself on hate and bloodlust. Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Osama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist. That, my friend, is the stuff of clashing civilizations. Mansoor practices enlightened religion (albeit not to my taste and I shall continue to try and reach men such as Mansoor with the Salvation of Christ) that desires to worship in peace. Sadly, the demonic manifestation of radical Islamism shows that branch of Islam doesn't want to co-exist or live in peace. We are in a clash of civilizations when up against Islamism. I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam; one will co-exist with you, until the other murders the peaceful Moslems and anything Western or non-Islamism.

252 posted on 03/29/2003 12:38:06 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Hey I just got done yelling at you on another thread, you can't be on the same side as me here!

;)

253 posted on 03/29/2003 4:28:13 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
Well, I don't know, you make a lot of sense usually! I just don't buy into the hysteria that our troops are going hungry. Pax wobiscom
254 posted on 03/29/2003 5:58:29 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
uh, make that pax wobiscum
255 posted on 03/29/2003 5:58:55 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Well, I don't know, you make a lot of sense usually!

I do!!! LOL

Hey can I refer to this post next time I'm getting smacked around. (Probably pretty soon).

256 posted on 03/29/2003 7:18:03 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: Luis Gonzalez
[Luis Gonzalez]--Wants to find the person/s who attacked us on 9/11 and completely destroy him, and anyone who helped him.

Well, Muhammad wrote the Qu'ran, the handbook of violence that Osama has mastered. Moreover, Muhammad set the example by slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children to spread his religion. So, in a most powerful way, Muhammad inspired the attacks of 9/11.

Unfortunately, Muhammad is dead. So you'll have to settle on completely destroying the men he inspired.

Go get 'em. Luis. Make 'em pay.

257 posted on 03/29/2003 7:31:28 PM PST by Kevin Curry
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To: MHGinTN
"Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Usama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist."

A couple of thoughts.

Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. In Arab countries, they scream for our blood, in England, they scream for Bush and Blair's heads, and in the US, the "street" blames right wing conservatives for this war. The reaction of the street right now is not indicative of a clash of civilizations, but rather the mix of Muslims and western ideologists indicates a rejection of what’s going on in Iraq. In contrast, with the exception of some activity in Pakistan, I don’t recall seeing the Arab street have this sort of reaction to our invasion of Afghanistan. I think Pakis may have been a lot more concerned with the involvement of their government than anything else.

There is no clash of civilizations yet, and there is no Jihad yet. There are the actions of terrorists, using Islam as a disguise for their crimes, and whose true goals have a lot more to do with power than religion, and they are desperately trying to create enough reason by Muslim clerics to call for Jihad. Usama bin Laden, tired of clerics not calling for a Holy War against the west, declared war all on his own.

The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum.

Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil, how could there be men like Mansoor Jiaz, and Kabbani? How can there be countries with predominantly Muslim populations that are not experiencing the sorts if problems that have existed in the Middle East for the last 30 years or longer? The key is in your own statement, a statement by the way, that asserts my every argument, and defeats every single “Islam is the enemy” post in this forum…”Islam as practiced by…”

Usama bin Laden had to justify his breach if Islamic law in the attacks of 9/11, Islamic law clearly forbids the killing of other Muslims, and non-combatants. He justified his atrocity by declaring that the people in the towers, including the Muslims in the towers, were combatants in the effect that they were waging a financial war on Islam.

I have a neighbor who is a devout Muslim, we have a friendly relationship, and we chat occasionally. He was terrified by the events of 9/11, and made it a point to mention that the people who had committed such an act, were acting against the will of Allah, and that they would suffer for breaking Allah’s law.

Imagine that at that moment, and every time after that, I decided to bring up the fact that Mohammed was a pedophile, that he was the manifestation of Satan on Earth, that Muslims in America should be forced to either convert, or leave the country (a very popular notion here in FR), and that we should nuke Mecca and Medina.

How long do you think it would take before my neighbor turned into my enemy?

And whose fault would it be?

And most important of all, I would have wasted a wonderful opportunity to talk to him about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His message of hope and salvation for all, and instead, advanced the idea that Christians hated him and his people, and created a lifelong enemy.

I know what I know about Mohammed, and I know what I know about the Quor’an, and I make the choice not to lower myself to the base name-calling and hate rhetoric that so many in here seem to wear like an Armani suit. Jesus’ message is not one of hatred and intolerance, but rather of love, forgiveness, and salvation, even in the face of hatred and intolerance.

If we attack Islam the religion, and not Usama bin Laden the criminal, we will elevate him, and strengthen him.

Pat Buchanan said it best, and I don’t even like Pat Buchanan, but this he got right.

”In the last century, America was threatened by a global communist revolution. Avoiding all-out war, we outlasted it. And we can outlast this Islamist revolution. What we must avoid is a war of faiths, a war of civilizations between Islam and America. And those who propagandize for such a war are the unwitting or willful collaborators of Usama bin Laden."

Saber’s posts trying to get me to discuss Mohammed are no more than an attempt at initiating a flame war with me...he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.

My God is God Marvin, I have nothing to fear from anyone.

”I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam.”

That statement Marvin, with all due respect, and in absolute honesty, is a load of crap.

I have been the individual in this thread, and one of the individuals in this forum taking crap for months now for being the one who would remind everyone that the actions of Usama bin Laden and Radical Islamofascists are not indicative of Muslims in general, and that there are different manifestations of Islam, it's the very thing that I have been talking about on this thread. It's even the main theme of the editorial. That you should come up with such a patronizing statement in light of what I have been talking about for months now is insulting. Specially coming from a friend.

Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong.

258 posted on 03/29/2003 9:21:55 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Kevin Curry
Are you suggesting that we should attack all Muslims?
259 posted on 03/29/2003 9:24:01 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: AAABEST
What "audience" and how would you know what they're thinking?

"What audience"?

Then, who in the hell were you promoting your cause to?

Were you knowingly talking to yourself?

260 posted on 03/29/2003 9:48:22 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: cicero's_son
Here’s what you “missed”…not that you were looking to make any sort of unbiased assessment of the debate, but it’s going to be fun exposing yet one more intellectually dishonest individual in FR.

”Even an atheist would rather have his neighbor emulate Jesus instead of Mohammed.”

Made to a poster other than me, and commenting on our ongoing discussion.

Maybe you just don’t consider being called an atheist an insult and that’s why you missed the comment.

”In order to skirt the issue of the character of Mohammed, you've now attempted to place Joshua on the same moral plane as Mohammed. Isn't this known in some circles as "moral relativism?”
That’s taking my words, twisting their meaning, and creating the opportunity to level a personal insult by falsely accusing me of using “moral relativism”.

”The mental hopscotch necessary to conclude that "moderate Muslims" represent the real Islam requires real disingenuousness…”

Imagine that, and I have yet to respond with my first personal commentary.

”It's quite unfortunate, really, because in turning away, you've wandered into one heresy, ecumenism, to defend another, Islam.”

Now he’s callingh me a heretic…then again, you may not consider that an insult either.

By the way, up to this point, the only thing that I said to Toothy that you quoted me on, was accusing him of doing work for Usama bin Laden…and strangely, Pat Buchanan seems to agree with me on that one.

”Anyway, I keep forgetting you have a three hour head start on me. I'm sipping some Glenmorangie. You?

I see that you included my response to this post as an example of my unwarranted personal attacks. I guess that according to your “code of honor”, it was perfectly fine for him to accuse me of being drunk, but not OK for me to do the same.

What you have displayed here, is one of the most blatant cases of intellectual dishonesty that I have ever come across in this forum.

Congratulations, you are now ready for DU.

261 posted on 03/29/2003 9:53:32 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"What you have displayed here, is one of the most blatant cases of intellectual dishonesty that I have ever come across in this forum...

Congratulations, you are now ready for DU.

Hilarious! I do nothing but quote you and it's "one of the most blatant cases of intellectual dishonesty" you've ever seen. LOL!

You might want to tone down the histrionics. They're what got you into trouble on this thread in the first place.

262 posted on 03/29/2003 10:04:22 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
Got busted being dishonest didn't you?

So tell me then...where is your post directed at Saber for his initiating the name calling?

As I said, intellectual dishonesty.

263 posted on 03/29/2003 10:07:04 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Sigh. I hate to do this, Luis. I don’t like repeating myself, but you leave me no choice:

Your reading and comprehension skills suck"

"You do good work Toothy, unfortunately, you do it for Usama bin Laden."

"..Shows a definite lack of intelligence"

"...Spot The Radical Fundamentalist Religious Extremist..."

"Put the bottle down and things will become clearer when not viewed through a single malt haze"

"Fess up Toothy, you're Lanny Davis aren't you"

"BTW, lacking the intellect to continue the debate, I see that you are already launching into personal attacks....Shows a definite lack of intelligence"

And then, when confronted with this admittedly rather embarrassing list:

What you have displayed here, is one of the most blatant cases of intellectual dishonesty that I have ever come across in this forum... Congratulations, you are now ready for DU

I think I’ll just let your words and actions here continue to speak for themselves. No doubt you’ll continue to whine and point the finger at Sabertooth.

264 posted on 03/29/2003 10:18:50 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Saber’s posts trying to get me to discuss Mohammed are no more than an attempt at initiating a flame war with me...

A discussion of Mohammed, the founder of Islam, on a thread about Islam and the Muslims who follow in their founder's footsteps, seems to be fairly pertinent. However, we're now to understand that this constitutes the instigation of a flame war?

Call me ignorant, I guess; I did not know this rule.

he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.

Oh, well, things are now crystallized precisely.




265 posted on 03/29/2003 10:20:18 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: cicero's_son
All the Saber quotes I posted preceeded yours.

You have an issue with my posts, but not with his it seems.

As I said, intellectually dishonest.
266 posted on 03/29/2003 10:21:46 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: firebrand; StarFan; Dutchy; stanz; RaceBannon; Cacique; Clemenza; rmlew; NYC GOP Chick; ...
ping!

Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my infrequent ping list.

267 posted on 03/29/2003 10:22:06 PM PST by nutmeg (Liberate Iraq - Support Our Troops!)
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To: Sabertooth
"Call me ignorant."

OK...

268 posted on 03/29/2003 10:22:40 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"No doubt you’ll continue to whine and point the finger at Sabertooth."
269 posted on 03/29/2003 10:28:27 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Thinkin' Gal; DittoJed2; Bobby777; countrydummy; hellinahandcart
"The Islamic view of the world is that man is inherently good."

This contradicts directly the Bible's assertion that man is inherently evil (man's sinful nature).

270 posted on 03/29/2003 10:30:33 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Carry_Okie; holyscroller; farmfriend; countrydummy; hellinahandcart
your analysis applies to the Left in general and environmentalists in particular. Environmentalism (particularly the extreme leftist kind) is a religion!
271 posted on 03/29/2003 10:36:24 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: SauronOfMordor
" The essense of evil is the lust for power over others, and the way to restrain evil is to minimize the avenues for power."

Simplistic. You neglect greed and lust as primary motivators.

272 posted on 03/29/2003 10:41:26 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: swarthyguy
And funding them.
273 posted on 03/29/2003 10:48:16 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Sabertooth; AAABEST
There is no clash of civilizations yet, and there is no Jihad yet. Actually, Luis, I happen to believe the Jihad of radical Islamism began in 1979.

Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong. well, my friend, I wish you had said (or could have said) such a thing to me approximately ten years ago. I did hold to the notion that some abortion for the woman's convenience was not wrong. Thanks to fellow human beings like Askel5, with enough time and her persistence, I did come around to understand that all abortion is wrong.

In the comments regarding Mansoor Ijaz, you will note that I offered there are two perspectives on jihad, that the Islam which Mansoor practices can co-exist with other religions, that the Islam practiced by the Osama's of Islam cannot and does not desire to co-exist with other religions. My Muslim neighbor is of the 'Mansoor camp', and as an American I respect his right to worship as he chooses and will defend his right to do so. I will fight the other Islam, the totalitarian Islamism of the Osama's, however.

Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. I believe you are wrong with that perspective, Luis. And therin lies the clash of civilizations. The Arab street is directed by the bloodlust of Islamism. I don't think bloodlust is driving the other 'streets'. Pakistanis are not Arabs, but the insidious nature of Islamism is driving the bloodlust of those Pakistani 'streets'. In fact, going around the world, wherever one sees the irrational hatred of Isalmics screeching for blood, it is Islamism as an opposition to our civiliztion that drives their bloodlust. I'd characterize that as a clash of cultures ... if one would class this radicalized Islam as 'civilization'.

The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum. If you look carefully, you will see that our action in Iraq is but the current excuse for their irrationality. The chronicle of such behavior goes back across many acts by America and Israel, and each time it is a bloodlust being expressed. It is not the current action that begets this bloodlust, the bloodlust is there seeking an excuse for expression. I don't see that bloodlust in Men like Mansoor, or in my neighbor.

Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil ... Bad form, Luis; I didn't say Islam is evil, but I would characterize the clash of Islam and Christianity as one of civilizations, peoples if you will set on a course that clashes in fundamental origins. Christ is God incarnate; Mohammed's allah was an instruction from whom he claimed was Angel Gabriel. I don't accept that Gabriel instructed Mohammed, so I would characterize the foundation of Islam as a lie that Mohammed didn't catch, at best, at worst, Islam is a manmade construct for worship ... idolatry. Do I care about Men like Mansoor Ijaz? Absolutely. He is my fellow human being. [And I'll let you in on something I firmly believe: when a man is taken in a lie, I don't believe God condemns such an man to eternal damnation, and it is the devoutness and sincerity of worship (in Peace, for Christ is the Prince of Peace) that will allow Mansoor Ijaz to someday embrace the truth of the Christ ... in God's own timing as Sovereign over the universe and humankind. In that belief, Mansoor and I can live in peace, for if I am mistaken, it is Mansoor who will lose by his choice, and if allah is the one true God, mansoor would wish for my forgiveness from allah as I pray for his forgiveness in God's timing. Cryptic? Perhaps, but therein lies the geist of man's religions, if they are to co-exist.]

Peace be with you, my friend. I will not contend further in this matter.

274 posted on 03/29/2003 10:54:13 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Texas Mom
"he believes the Bible to be corrupt."

Any Qur'anic reference that would support this?

275 posted on 03/29/2003 10:57:42 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Jhoffa_
There is a war between Islam and Christianity.

Sorry. Your sneering admonition to TLB is not warranted.

276 posted on 03/29/2003 10:59:42 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: MHGinTN
"I believe you are wrong with that perspective, Luis. And therin lies the clash of civilizations. The Arab street is directed by the bloodlust of Islamism."

You are trying to assign some sort of pecking order to the reasons behind why other people hate us for being American, and Islamism ranks higher than Communism, Socialism, Shintoism, French citizenship…

Our troops are halfway around the world fighting and dying for us, in incredibly hostile terrain, surrounded by many hostile nations. I know people with kids over there.

I don't care what the "ism" is, I don't want it.

I am not fanning the furnace they have to walk through, not now anyway. When they are home safe and victorious, we'll raise a glass together and call Mohammed a killer, a pervert, and worse...a Frenchman.

But the right thing to do right now, the Christian thing to do for our troops, and for the nation in general, is to pipe down and pray.

277 posted on 03/29/2003 11:53:12 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: sauropod
Was it Rush who said that the left worhips at the Altar of Politics?

278 posted on 03/29/2003 11:57:17 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: MHGinTN
"Bad form, Luis; I didn't say Islam is evil..."

But you sided with the individual who is saying that Islam is inherently evil because Mohammed was evil. So it would be safe to assume that you agree with his argument.

Or would it not?

279 posted on 03/30/2003 12:03:09 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Sabertooth
Saber, let's drop the crap, you don't want to “discuss” anything.

(---bring up cheesy music---)

Announcer: “Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another issue of Point and Counterpoint. Please join us for a comprehensive discussion on the current situation in the Middle East, with your hosts Toothy and Louie!

look, I even gave you top billing…

Toothy: "Mohammed is evil because he murdered a whole bunch of people in the name of Allah, and he was intolerant."

Me: "You know, the Bible says that our guys wiped out tens of thousands of men, women, and children in the name of God back in their day."

Toothy: "Heretic! Blasphemer!"

(----bring up cheesy music---)

Announcer: "Ladies and gentlemen, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Point and Counterpoint, we hope to see you back next time!"

Thanks for the lively repartee, Toothy. It’s always nice to be condescended on by you.

280 posted on 03/30/2003 12:27:05 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
It would not. Think of attitudes on Islam as a line, with rejection of fellow human beings who are Moslems on one end and total acceptance on the other end. I'm not at either end.
281 posted on 03/30/2003 12:57:02 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Thanks.

282 posted on 03/30/2003 5:21:08 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: sauropod
There is a war between Arab Nationalists and the US.
283 posted on 03/30/2003 5:22:40 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: MHGinTN
Exactly. It all boils down to this: The non-secular Muslims are telling, point blank us that they want to destroy us by any means possible.

Luis still thinks they're lying to us.

284 posted on 03/30/2003 6:08:27 AM PST by AAABEST
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To: Luis Gonzalez
There is a war between Arab Nationalists and the US.

The Taliban are not Arabs. The Chechens are not Arabs. Neither are Jamaat al Fuqra, Jamaat al Tabligh, Jemaat i Islamyia or Abu Sayyef. Hezbollah is funded by the Iranians.

Their targets and victims include France, Italy, Germany, Russia, India, Australia, the Philippines, as well as America and Israel.

Certainly there are Arabs involved, but the foes we fight are not united by Arabic.




285 posted on 03/30/2003 8:18:10 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Bump
286 posted on 03/30/2003 8:21:32 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: sauropod

IMO, if your position even remotely resembles oppressing thousands of peaceful American Muslims, who go about their businness every day and bother no one, stripping them of their First Amendment Rights, then:

1) You're carrying Osama's water. You would validate every word he spoke.

2) You obviously don't have anything about Christianity to teach me.

3) Your mindset is one that people such as Osama would exploit. He loves zealots such as yourself, as they elevated him to a position of authority and now help maintain it.

287 posted on 03/30/2003 8:25:55 AM PST by Jhoffa_ (Hi, I'm Johnny Knoxville, and this is "Freepin for Zot!")
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To: Jhoffa_
Well, gee, pal. The Qur'an really doesn't say anything about killing the infidel, does it?

"Carrying Osama's water..." LOL!

You are correct about one thing. I am a zealot for Christ. There is only one way to God and it ain't through Islam.

I have a Muslim friend that is a very nice lady. She is Palestinian. AFAIK, she does not advocate anything such as what the jihadists do. I suppose I should ask her if she would like her "First Amendment Right" stripped from her? < /sarcasm>

The fact that America has thousands of peaceful Muslims still does not obviate the fact that a large percentage of the Muslim world has declared war on the West (Christianity and Judiasm). Go to www.memri.org if you don't believe me.

Have a day.

288 posted on 03/30/2003 8:39:31 AM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Jhoffa_
if your position even remotely resembles oppressing thousands of peaceful American Muslims,

We should be careful before assuming that a recognition of a Clash of Civilizations between Islam and the West implies a desire to oppress those Muslims who actually do live peacefully among us.

The question on the table is this:

Do Islamic moderates represent "true Islam," or are the elements of Islam that are intransigently hostile to us the true spiritual heirs of Mohammed?

I've come to the latter conclusion, but I also recognize the benefit of fighting against a fractionalized opponent, rather than a coherent, pan-Islamic jihad. The best course, it seems to me, is to correctly identify our foes and thier motives, while prudently avoiding actions that would make them a more dangerous enemy.




289 posted on 03/30/2003 8:44:50 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: sauropod

Can't do that. We have laws against it. The first Amendment does not protect religious violence, just the right to worship.

Yes. From Day one he has tried to paint this as a war against Islam as opposed to a police action, brought about both as a result of his crimes and the reluctance of the Taliban to fork him over.

Agreed.

I don't know what you're talking about. But her right to worship peacefully, and in adherance ot our laws is absolute.

We will punish terrorism. We have no right to punish peaceful, American Muslims. They are protected by our Constitution.

Do I have a choice?

290 posted on 03/30/2003 8:51:05 AM PST by Jhoffa_ (Hi, I'm Johnny Knoxville, and this is "Freepin for Zot!")
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To: Jhoffa_
I did not advocate punishing peaceful American Muslims. Please do not put words in my mouth.

When I saw the Arab Street jumping up and down in glee on 9/11, I knew the world had changed.

291 posted on 03/30/2003 8:54:54 AM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Sabertooth

I don't have to assume it, the poster in question admitted such. He has called for this repeatedly in fact, all over the forum.

IMO, that's a huge mistake.. if for no other reason (of which there are several, actually) than the "benefit of fighting against a fractionalized opponent" you cite.

As far as the question of Radical Islam being the mainstream.. I honestly don't know.

The Bible, for example is very plain and explicit.. Yet you see very spirited arguments on the interpretation of scripture that exist to the present day. I know that personally I have big problems with the way some passages are intrepreted by my Catholic bretheren.

I maintain that I am correct in this and by the same token I can see where a "moderate" Muslim might argue that he's a "true" muslim and be convinced of it..

He may well be wrong, but if he believes it and is not using the Koran to justify religious oppression then who am I to argue and why would I wish to?

292 posted on 03/30/2003 9:02:52 AM PST by Jhoffa_ (Hi, I'm Johnny Knoxville, and this is "Freepin for Zot!")
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To: sauropod

Then learn to read. That was the point of my post.

It was prefaced as such.

The world didn't "change" we lost a building and 3,000 people.

293 posted on 03/30/2003 9:05:14 AM PST by Jhoffa_ (Hi, I'm Johnny Knoxville, and this is "Freepin for Zot!")
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To: Luis Gonzalez
sided with the individual who is saying that Islam is inherently evil because Mohammed was evil.

If David Mitchell aka Emmanual actually had been able to get his new religion off the ground, would it be much different from Islam? Emmanual took a 14 year old girl as his "wife" but wasn't Mohammed's little girl only 6? A pedophile is a pedophile. Judaism had some polygamy in the early years but no indications that pedophilia was ever acceptable. Christians follow Jesus who certainly wasn't a polygamist or pedophile.

294 posted on 03/30/2003 9:28:29 AM PST by FITZ
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To: sauropod
bttt
295 posted on 03/30/2003 9:30:10 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Jhoffa_
The Bible, for example is very plain and explicit.. Yet you see very spirited arguments on the interpretation of scripture that exist to the present day. I know that personally I have big problems with the way some passages are intrepreted by my Catholic bretheren.

I maintain that I am correct in this and by the same token I can see where a "moderate" Muslim might argue that he's a "true" muslim and be convinced of it..

He may well be wrong, but if he believes it and is not using the Koran to justify religious oppression then who am I to argue and why would I wish to?

It's understandable to try and find some sectarian conflict in our experience, and try to construct an analogy regarding Islam. However, I think the utility in that is limited, and the reason is the objective difference between the moral character of Jesus and that of Mohammed.

Reasonable people can look at the worst atrocities committed ostensibly in the name of Christ, and objectively say that those who committed the offenses were not acting as Jesus did, or would. Yet when we look at the worst atrocities of Islam, we can objectively say that the transgressors were acting just as Mohammed did and would; which is exactly the opposite of our observation of faithful Christian behavior.

Despite differences in doctrine, the vast majority of Christians, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, are in fundamental agreement on the nature of Christ. It is Christ's nature, and our agreement upon it, that have rendered bloody sectarian strife between Christians, or between Christians and other religions, ever more infrequent. Most Christians understand that to initiate bloodshed is not Christian.

An atheist or an agnostic wouldn't mind having a neighbor who emulated the behavior of Christ in his day to day life. It's hard to imagine they'd like a neighborhood full of people who emulate Mohammed.

The initiation of bloodshed is very Mohammedan.

In addition, we're also aware of a vast number of so-called Islamic moderates who nevertheless make every conceivable excuse for the atrocities of their co-religionists. How moderate can the really be?

Far more rare is the Muslim who actually condemns the brutality of the civilization spawned by his religion. They deserve all the credit in the world for the courage of their stand, even though they are not yet ready to reject the source of that brutality.




296 posted on 03/30/2003 9:30:33 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: Luis Gonzalez
There is a war between Arab Nationalists and the US.

In a way that's what it is ---Islam is an Arab Nationalist religion ----but there are other kinds of Islam ---except that all Islam originates from the Arabs. I've met Persians who aren't like Arabs ---they don't even like them, they aren't as hate-filled, they call themselves Muslim but I think they're Islam is influenced somewhat by what they were before ----they'll even admit Islam was imposed on them by the Arabs but they had a flourishing culture of their own previously.

297 posted on 03/30/2003 9:35:17 AM PST by FITZ
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To: sauropod
" The essense of evil is the lust for power over others, and the way to restrain evil is to minimize the avenues for power." Simplistic. You neglect greed and lust as primary motivators.

When I say "power over others", I mean the ability to FORCE others to obey your will, whether they want to or not. Simple persuasiveness is influence, not power.

Desire for money is OK, if it is satisfied by producing something of value to exchange for it, but evil if it is satisfied by using physical power to rob or intimidate

Desire for sex is OK, if it is satisfied by persuading the other person to cooperate voluntarily, but evil if you use power to rape or intimidate the other into cooperating

That's why I say "the essense of evil is the lust for power over others" -- it is the decision to satisfy your desires thru the use of force rather than free exchange and cooperation, because you don't want to go thru the effort needed to satisfy your desires thru exchange, persuasion, and cooperation

298 posted on 03/30/2003 10:16:29 AM PST by SauronOfMordor (Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
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To: Sabertooth


299 posted on 03/30/2003 11:12:36 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
You posted a pic of Arab flags. That's great, but it doesn't accurately delimit the theatres of this war, nor the opponents of the West.

Nice picture, though.



300 posted on 03/30/2003 11:21:29 AM PST by Sabertooth
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