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Jewish lawmakers threaten walk-out over reference to Jesus
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | April 3, 2003 | Diana Lynne

Posted on 04/03/2003 6:25:58 PM PST by honway

A Maryland minister was barred from giving the opening prayer in the state Senate after he refused to drop a reference to Jesus.

The Rev. David N. Hughes of the Trinity and Evangelical Church of Adamstown, Md., intended to round out his invocation yesterday with the line, "In Jesus' name, Amen." But the sergeant at arms – on the orders of Senate President Thomas Mike Miller Jr. – shut the reverend out of the body's chambers.

Miller issued the orders after two Jewish lawmakers threatened to stage a boycott of the legislative session if the phrase was not removed.

"I'm shocked by the response. I've never had this happen in 26 years," Hughes told the Frederick News-Post. "It just makes me feel that they've taken away my right as an American to pray, and this is the seat of government, and that's scary."

The pastor – a Vietnam veteran – was invited to give the prayer by Republican Sen. Alex Mooney. Hughes was Mooney's fourth guest. The other three were Jewish rabbis.

Opening up legislative sessions with prayer is a longstanding tradition in Maryland, as it is in states across the country. Mooney told WorldNetDaily no one had been barred from giving an invocation before. He sees irony in yesterday's "censorship."

Maryland state Republican Rep. Alex Mooney

"We were the first state to address religious tolerance in our state charter," he told WorldNetDaily. "This just shows a lack of tolerance for peoples' religious views."

Mooney recalled numerous instances of invocations referencing Jesus throughout the four years that he has been in office.

But at the beginning of the session this year, a string of invocations by Baptist preachers invoking the name Jesus Christ sparked debate on the issue. Miller appealed to lawmakers for tolerance and urged they stick to guidelines that call for invocations to be of an ecumenical nature and respectful of all faiths.

Webster's New World Dictionary defines ecumenical as "promoting cooperation or better understanding among differing religious faiths."

Since the debate, the Senate clerk screens prayers ahead of time and flagged the written text submitted by Hughes.

When Sens. Ida Ruben and Gloria Hollinger – both of whom are Jewish – heard of the reference, they asked Mooney to strike it.

"I said, 'Hey, I'll let him pray however he wants to pray. I'm not going to censor him and tell him how he needs to pray,'" Mooney told WND.

Ruben told the Frederick News-Post she then urged Hughes to substitute "messiah" for Jesus, telling him the reference could offend non-Christians and goes against the guidelines.

Neither Ruben nor Miller returned calls seeking comment.

"This is part of my faith," Hughes responded, according to Mooney. "The Gospel says when you pray, pray in Jesus' name."

The senators next asked to be excused from the floor during the prayer.

Paradoxically, a walk-out over a Muslim cleric's prayer opening a Washington state legislative session last month backfired on one Christian lawmaker.

Washington state Republican Rep. Lois McMahan

As WorldNetDaily reported, Rep. Lois McMahan, a Republican from Gig Harbor, Wash., refused to participate in the prayer and declared, "My god is not Muhammed."

"The Islamic religion is so ... part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be a part of that," she said in an interview with the Seattle Post Intelligencer. "Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America."

But a day later, McMahan apologized on the floor of the state House of Representatives amid mounting furor over her stance.

Debate over invocations is raging elsewhere in the country. As WorldNetDaily reported, several Southern California cities are grappling with threats from both sides of the issue.

Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union to quit using the name Jesus Christ in invocations, the city of Lake Elsinore, in Riverside County, decided to eliminate mention of "religious figures." The decree subsequently had the apparent effect of eliminating the prayer altogether, as no local pastors would accept invitations to deliver the prayer, and city councilors adopted moments of silence instead.

The ACLU contends that praying at the request of a government entity is a violation of the First Amendment's prohibition against the establishment of religion.

But the nonprofit United States Justice Foundation, which threatened to sue the city if it failed to reverse its decision, maintains telling a pastor what to pray is a violation of his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and religion.

The notion of "separation of church and state" is derived from the dissenting opinion of the 1946 Supreme Court case Everson vs. Board of Education, which upheld a program allowing parents to be repaid from state funds for the costs of transportation to private religious schools. The court required only that the state maintain neutrality in its relations with various groups of religious believers.

"The decision in Everson does not rise to the level of being a battle cry for those who would wish to remove every vestige of religion from the public forum," USJF litigation counsel Richard Ackerman asserts.

"There's a push in this country to remove religion from society," Mooney echoed, "from the Supreme Court's decision on the Pledge to the ACLU going after all the Ten Commandments posted across the country. ... Nothing in the church-state relationship allows censorship and the removal of religious values from society."


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christians; ecumenical; hypocrites; jews; liberals; maryland; silliness; watereddown
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To: cyborg
ty. I have heard of this.
301 posted on 04/03/2003 8:10:41 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Bella_Bru
Just a question, but why couldn't the prayer just have included G-d? Jews and Christians both worship the G-d of Abraham, why wasn't that enough?

Its very simple: Jesus claimed to be God, and specifically instructed that prayer be offered in His name. (John 14:13, 15:7, 15:16 16:19 & etc.) Praying in Jesus' name is an integral part of Christianity, from Jesus until today.

If Jews, Moslems or people of other religions don't like that: GET OVER IT. IT'S CALLED TOLLERANCE!

As a Christian I am deeply offended by neutral, ecumenical, namby-pamby prayers--they disobey the commands of Jesus, and they don't reflect reality...

302 posted on 04/03/2003 8:10:57 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: chuckles; Jhoffa_; Thinkin' Gal
Yes. Thank you.
303 posted on 04/03/2003 8:12:25 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: AnalogReigns
As a Christian I am deeply offended by neutral, ecumenical, namby-pamby prayers--they disobey the commands of Jesus, and they don't reflect reality...

You would say this even though you were making a prayer to a group of people which had Jews in addition to Christians?

304 posted on 04/03/2003 8:12:32 PM PST by yonif
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To: yonif


To Christians, Jesus is G-d.
The fact that some find the utterance of his name offensive is kinda upsetting. It's becoming the word we're
not to say in polite company anymore.

Maybe Christians need to come up with a new politically correct codename for Jesus.

I don't think they should have the prayers at all by the way.
305 posted on 04/03/2003 8:12:42 PM PST by katnip
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To: Bella_Bru
As best I understand it, here's why:

Christ, even though he was raised Jewish and called Rabbi by his followers absolutely rejected the faith.

He stated "A man is not defiled by what he puts in his mouth, but by every word that comes out"
A rejection of Jewish tradition.

When he healed a man on the sabbath, many were critical, and he said "Which of you, whose pig had fallen into a put on the Sabbath, would not save it?"
Thus rejecting jewish tradition.

He chastised the apostles for trying to defnd him at the Garden of Gethsemene, and healed the ear of a soldier who had been struck of.
Thus rejecting Jewish philosophy of "An eye for an eye"

Commenting on the hoopla of the religious festivals, he said "Don't pray in public. Go into a closet and pray."
Rejecting the traditions that went along with Jewish festivals.

He went to the temple, and overthrew the tables, crying "My house is a house of prayer and you have made it a den of thieves!"
Rejecting a traditional mode of financial support for the priests.
Remember, each of those tables paid a fee to the temple priests for a spot.


Finally, he continually referred to the Jewish elders and Priests as hypocrites and scoundrels, and a good study of his trial and Jewish law at the time undeniably proves he was put to death not by the Romans, but by the Jewish power structure.
306 posted on 04/03/2003 8:12:51 PM PST by djf
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To: sauropod
{This is a Pubbie/DemocRAT thing.}

Bingo! This is the latest attempt of the RATS to portray the Pubbies as intolerant bigots. First they played the race card with Trent Lott. Now MD RATS are playing the anti-semite card. Many Jews are unhappy with the RATS for not showing strong support for Israel. This incident in the MD General Assembly is a method to keep Jews on the RAT plantation.

Last month in the WA General Assembly, a Pubbie protested a Muslim Imam leading a prayer to Allah in the legislative chamber. The media and the RATS quickly smeared the Pubbie as racist. Religious expression is only politically correct for liberals.
307 posted on 04/03/2003 8:12:53 PM PST by Kuksool (Christianity is what makes America great)
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To: chuckles
Oh, you are going to get in trouble

tell ya what Ill draw their fire...since Im hittn the hay anyway

Hey, Everybody Jesus IS God! He is God the Son and inheriter of the Universes, the One and Only Potentate! This is what those leftists cant stand, and Jews cant accept (God luv em): Jesus IS GOD!

Now you can explain that to em

'nite

308 posted on 04/03/2003 8:13:34 PM PST by Gasshog (eyes open, mouth too! tough!)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Bring it on Counselor. I know who you are.
309 posted on 04/03/2003 8:13:37 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: sauropod
Again illogical and irrelevant:

What are you gonna do about the New Testament. Who is Jesus?

I am not going to do anything at all about New Testament.

I have an opinion about Jesus.

None of your questions have any relevance whatever to any and all of my previous posts.

Looks like you really enjoy divisiveness: we talked about a small disagreement that occurred today, and you are movign it into a theological discussion.

Please address it those who like to fight; I am not one of them. And, frankly, given your offensive remarks and the fact that you do not even bother to apologize for them, I have no desire to continue this conversation.

310 posted on 04/03/2003 8:14:27 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: yonif
Except for one thing...Christians pray in the name of Jesus Christ. If you include Christians as convocators (?) this is what they do. It is how they were instructed to pray by Christ. Just like Jews wearing yamakahs yamakas (beanies!!) you know what I mean!!
311 posted on 04/03/2003 8:15:18 PM PST by mlmr
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To: katnip
If Jesus = God, then it would be correct to say:
I believe in Jesus = I believe in God?

I thought Jesus was the Messiah. Christ = messiah. Jesus Christ = Jesus the Messiah.
312 posted on 04/03/2003 8:15:27 PM PST by yonif
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To: Pharmboy
I don't cast spells. ;-). Unless it is with FReeper women...
313 posted on 04/03/2003 8:17:09 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Delphinium
They probably pulled this same stuff with the Germans.
314 posted on 04/03/2003 8:17:26 PM PST by Edmund Burke
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To: honway
an easily found source on the internet

If you are illiterate and have never been to the library, please do not make it sound like it is my fault: go to a comunity college, they have remedial courses. And you can find the address on the nearest library on the internet.

It's too bad you are still trowing temper tantrums, kid.

315 posted on 04/03/2003 8:17:58 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: honway
This is offensive. Don't folks find it odd that the name of Jesus has been allowed till now? Isn't it also odd that when sworn in the Holy Bible (OLD and NEW Testament) is used for the swearing in? Now this ... it's way out of line by our Jewish folks.
316 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:07 PM PST by nmh
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To: Illbay
The USofA will not survive as a Jewish, Muslim, or Pluralistic nation. If you, and others like you, insist on "changing" what the USof A "is" tell us what you will replace it with before we start the "Revolution"!
317 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:19 PM PST by Blake#1
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To: AnalogReigns
Dont you know ONLY Christian are expected to be tolerant?
318 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:20 PM PST by Gasshog (eyes open, mouth too! tough!)
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To: sauropod
We retain our Faith in Christ ... The New Testament tells us that it is often much work to bring people to Faith in Christ ... not all will accept God's Free Gift ... nonetheless, the New Testament tells us about this situation exactly:

Romans 11 KJV
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the Father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
319 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:24 PM PST by Bobby777
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To: yonif; hellinahandcart
Two prayers could have been said. One to honor the crew as a whole and one to honor the Israeli hero specifically.

Ain't tolerance fun?

320 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:24 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: yonif
"I agree with the Jewish people there. They should have removed references to Jesus."

I'm going to assume you are Jewish. I have a question for you. Why are Jews so vehemently opposed to the mere mention of "Jesus." Why is the mere mention of that word so threatening and reprehensible to Jews? I'm betting the Jewish lawmakers have never made such a stink over the name "Mohamad."

321 posted on 04/03/2003 8:19:37 PM PST by EverOnward
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To: way2go
Then the Universal Jewish Encyclopedi is wrong.
322 posted on 04/03/2003 8:20:59 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: yonif
We believe in the Trinity.

To deny Jesus' name and that he is truly who we pray to when we pray to G-d, means we are lost forever.

He is our (Christians) only way to Heaven.

323 posted on 04/03/2003 8:21:06 PM PST by katnip
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To: sauropod
Either one accepts the New Testament or one does not.

Said like one who leans toward fundamentalism. Many who don't, would disagree.

324 posted on 04/03/2003 8:21:22 PM PST by 1 spark
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To: TopQuark
}}In Jesus Name" is a STANDARD closure to any Christian prayer and has nothing to do with "emphasizing differences".

}Do you comprehend the meaning of the word "difference."

Yes, do you understand the meaning of STANDARD closure? If you don't want a Christian Cleric to give the prayer because it may offend your tender sensitivities, don't ask. This is not complicated.

325 posted on 04/03/2003 8:21:34 PM PST by DensaMensa (He who controls the definitions controls history.)
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To: yonif
I would.
326 posted on 04/03/2003 8:22:10 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: honway
"This is part of my faith," Hughes responded, according to Mooney. "The Gospel says when you pray, pray in Jesus' name."

Ditto! It;s time for others to show some respect and tolerance. It is ONLY to Jesus that Christians pray. They have NO choice but to reference His name. To suggest otherwise would void the prayer.

327 posted on 04/03/2003 8:22:18 PM PST by nmh
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To: EverOnward
Read my other posts and see what I mean.
I am Jewish.
I am not opposed to the mention of Jesus.
I would not be opposed to the mention of Jesus if I went to a Church and heard it.
But this prayer was directed towards the whole of the legislators, right? There are Jews and Christians there. I found it inappropriate to make a prayer that was exclusive of the Jews there. This person was invited to make a prayer to all those there.
He should have chosen something that can be said to both Jews and Christians.
328 posted on 04/03/2003 8:22:18 PM PST by yonif
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To: yonif
I don't know what the Christian said at the memorial so I can't speak to that. Speaking and praying are different.

If the Christian prayed at the memorial, then I expect he/she would pray in Jesus' name.

"Would it make more sense to make a prayer that both Jews and Christians can accept?"

No, it would not. Who can or will accept it is irrelevent. A prayer designed for the audience is not a prayer.

JWinNC

329 posted on 04/03/2003 8:23:15 PM PST by JWinNC
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To: djf
Absolutely! Thank you for the post!
330 posted on 04/03/2003 8:23:40 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: TopQuark
I am truly sorry you have decided to take offense.

That was not my intent in my dialogue with you.

331 posted on 04/03/2003 8:25:26 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: yonif
"I agree. An old testament reference would have been more suitable. This is a country founded on Judeo-Christain principles. Prayers made in a government setting should not offend either the Jewish or Christain religion."

Being Jewish this would fit YOUR beliefs however Christians accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. To ignore that He is the Messiah would not be Christian.

It's time for you and others to show some respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others. It is ONLY to Jesus that Christians can pray. They have NO choice but to reference His name. To suggest otherwise would void the prayer. Now do yo get it? You don't have to accept it but I do suggest you show some respect and tolerance for others that wish to make a request to Jesus.

332 posted on 04/03/2003 8:25:55 PM PST by nmh
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To: mlmr
Except for one thing...Christians pray in the name of Jesus Christ. If you include Christians as convocators (?) this is what they do. It is how they were instructed to pray by Christ. Just like Jews wearing yamakahs yamakas (beanies!!) you know what I mean!!

The yarmulke thing is an excellent point. Jews believe the Almighty would have men wear them as a sign of humility. Many Christians believe just the opposite. Yet in an ecumenical service, we are not to lambaste the rabbi for wearing his yarmulke, even if it is offensive to us. We just deal with it, in the attitude of ecumenism and (cough cough) tolerance. Yet this attitude never seems to apply to Christians who actually purport to believe what they say. If they are Christian enough to pray unashamedly in the name of Jesus, whom Christians after all are supposed to worship as God, why are they then castigated? Do we then disallow the rabbi his yarmulke, the Buddhist his robes, the Muslim his beard, the feminist goddess worshipper her drum and amulets? Hmmmmm?
333 posted on 04/03/2003 8:26:00 PM PST by Scothia (If you pray for rain, prepare to deal with some mud.)
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To: Bella_Bru
Just a question, but why couldn't the prayer just have included G-d? Jews and Christians both worship the G-d of Abraham, why wasn't that enough?

Good question. Our currency says, In G-d We Trust.

334 posted on 04/03/2003 8:26:10 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Heavenly Father, please embrace, and protect, our Pres., our troops and those of our true allies.)
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To: yonif
Answer is yes.
335 posted on 04/03/2003 8:26:20 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: sauropod
As I said earlier, I equally respect my Christian friends.

I've seen enough people, and I can tell that you do not mean bad things you say, but you say them. The phrase "This is a Christian nation" implies by all standards of logic that if one is not a Christian, he is not an American. YOu may not mean it --- and I take your word for it that you do not --- but that is what you say.

Your position amounts to "I am going to be very free with the words, and throw them around freely. If people misunderstand my good intensions, tough luck; ley them grow skin."

Well, you are not at the center of the universe; the language is a two-way street. If you repeat the favorite phraze of the Aryan Nation, I have the right to take it face value without spending an hour of my life to find out that your heart is better than your mouth.

Finally, I showed in a previous post by example, that you wouldn't like it. "Do unto others..."

I appreciate and accept the clarification you gave. Let's call it a night, shall we?

Have a happy Easter holiday, if I don't see you before then.

336 posted on 04/03/2003 8:26:44 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: 1 spark
Then disagree friend. I wish you well.
337 posted on 04/03/2003 8:28:23 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: Delphinium
}What a time for Jews to start making trouble with Christians. We need to stick together.

That is certainly the understatement of the thread. A little less leftleaning touchy "ethnic pickiness" would markedly turn down the global temperature IMHO. Actions do have consequences.

338 posted on 04/03/2003 8:28:28 PM PST by DensaMensa (He who controls the definitions controls history.)
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To: mc10
this nation, of course, was founded on Christianity. This is a terrible, terrible shame

Was it? Or was it founded on G-d? Our currency says, 'In G-d We Trust.

339 posted on 04/03/2003 8:28:30 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Heavenly Father, please embrace, and protect, our Pres., our troops and those of our true allies.)
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To: sauropod
"I disagree with the Jewish people there. They were intolerant."

.....and I AGREE with you.

340 posted on 04/03/2003 8:28:38 PM PST by auggy
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To: sauropod
Thanks.
For a good study of how his trial was conducted and he was railroaded, go HERE

regards,
djf
341 posted on 04/03/2003 8:28:48 PM PST by djf
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To: yonif

Then why not just have the janitor deliver it? Or a Muslim? Or anybody at all?

What you're asking for is a speech, as the beliefs of Jews and Christians are completely exclusive.

I don't have a problem with respecting the opinions of Jews who happen to be present, but to ask the Christian to pray in something other than Christ's name is ridiculous.

That concession would be insulting to anyone with any, real religious values at all. It's better not to have the prayer in the first place if it requires dishonesty on the part of the minister.

342 posted on 04/03/2003 8:29:08 PM PST by Jhoffa_ (Frodo sleeps with men...)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
You got it right. It usually takes someone who can see the forrest while the others are running into the same tree.

Always enjoy your comments. Keep the Faith.

343 posted on 04/03/2003 8:29:21 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: mlmr
I would like to know why a person who believes in Christ should have to modify his prayer for jews or any one else.
If a jew or someone else offers a prayer is it allright fore me to be offended and cause trouble be cause they don't ask in Jesus name like I do? Why does God and Jesus always have to take the hit?
344 posted on 04/03/2003 8:29:25 PM PST by icu2
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To: sauropod
Thanks, all is forgotten.

It is nice to finally understand each other.

As I said earlier, we have much more in common that what we have different. And we should work together against the Leftist --- whether from Jewish of Christian families --- to bring this nation back to its Christian roots.

Regards, TQ.

345 posted on 04/03/2003 8:30:16 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: Servant of the Nine
This is a country founded on Judeo-Christain principles.
This is a country founded out of the Enlightenment, by Frreemasons and Secular Humanists who used Christianity just as Carl Marx, who was never original, later realized as a means of keeping the common people in their place. We did not have universal sufferage, and Christianity was never taken seriously by the upper class property owners that had the vote, except for a minority of New Englanders.

Hmmmm, Patrick Henry, George Washington, James Madison and even (probable Deist) Benjamin Franklin all seemed to take religion very seriously, giving it (at least) the utmost respect--all major founding fathers and none from New England. Jefferson's career was at risk when simply accused of being Deist (he wasn't....more accurately TJ can be called a proto-Unitarian) a charge he denied, by the way...

Of more than 50 elite founders, Jefferson and Franklin were the only ones close to being Deist...the rest, for the most part were regular church goers, many mentioning God (or "Providence") many times in their personal correspondance. The normal language of Jefferson and Washington, sound like that of someone deep within the "religious right" of today--which is why its so strange people, perhaps like yourself, are so distrustful and afraid of religious Christians today.

No one had ANY "sufferage" before the USA came along--as we were the first democractic republic since ancient Greece. The fact that it took a while for "universal sufferage" to be fully realized, doesn't tarnish the vision and ideals of our founders one iota...

You sound like you had too much of a dose of those unoriginal Marxist assumptions in your own education, in order to inaccurately portray the founders like that....

346 posted on 04/03/2003 8:30:53 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: sauropod
I think you meant to ping me to #313, right? ;D





347 posted on 04/03/2003 8:31:04 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Illbay
You are right (this country IS a nation of religious freedom) - and wrong....
Read up on the founding of the nation and show me in the history books where the Jewish and Muslim founders are listed.
348 posted on 04/03/2003 8:31:16 PM PST by DED (Liberals Never Learn. *LNL*)
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To: JWinNC; TopQuark; yonif; Bobby777; Thinkin' Gal; DittoJed2; hellinahandcart
"A prayer designed for the audience is not a prayer."

THANK YOU!


349 posted on 04/03/2003 8:32:37 PM PST by sauropod (If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy...)
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To: DensaMensa
Patently false. As I said earlier, thousands upon thousand of Christian clerics find unifying prayers in a mixed company without betraying their respective religions.

You are not a standard-bearer. And certainly do not strike me as a logician.

350 posted on 04/03/2003 8:32:43 PM PST by TopQuark
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