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Jewish lawmakers threaten walk-out over reference to Jesus
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | April 3, 2003 | Diana Lynne

Posted on 04/03/2003 6:25:58 PM PST by honway

A Maryland minister was barred from giving the opening prayer in the state Senate after he refused to drop a reference to Jesus.

The Rev. David N. Hughes of the Trinity and Evangelical Church of Adamstown, Md., intended to round out his invocation yesterday with the line, "In Jesus' name, Amen." But the sergeant at arms – on the orders of Senate President Thomas Mike Miller Jr. – shut the reverend out of the body's chambers.

Miller issued the orders after two Jewish lawmakers threatened to stage a boycott of the legislative session if the phrase was not removed.

"I'm shocked by the response. I've never had this happen in 26 years," Hughes told the Frederick News-Post. "It just makes me feel that they've taken away my right as an American to pray, and this is the seat of government, and that's scary."

The pastor – a Vietnam veteran – was invited to give the prayer by Republican Sen. Alex Mooney. Hughes was Mooney's fourth guest. The other three were Jewish rabbis.

Opening up legislative sessions with prayer is a longstanding tradition in Maryland, as it is in states across the country. Mooney told WorldNetDaily no one had been barred from giving an invocation before. He sees irony in yesterday's "censorship."

Maryland state Republican Rep. Alex Mooney

"We were the first state to address religious tolerance in our state charter," he told WorldNetDaily. "This just shows a lack of tolerance for peoples' religious views."

Mooney recalled numerous instances of invocations referencing Jesus throughout the four years that he has been in office.

But at the beginning of the session this year, a string of invocations by Baptist preachers invoking the name Jesus Christ sparked debate on the issue. Miller appealed to lawmakers for tolerance and urged they stick to guidelines that call for invocations to be of an ecumenical nature and respectful of all faiths.

Webster's New World Dictionary defines ecumenical as "promoting cooperation or better understanding among differing religious faiths."

Since the debate, the Senate clerk screens prayers ahead of time and flagged the written text submitted by Hughes.

When Sens. Ida Ruben and Gloria Hollinger – both of whom are Jewish – heard of the reference, they asked Mooney to strike it.

"I said, 'Hey, I'll let him pray however he wants to pray. I'm not going to censor him and tell him how he needs to pray,'" Mooney told WND.

Ruben told the Frederick News-Post she then urged Hughes to substitute "messiah" for Jesus, telling him the reference could offend non-Christians and goes against the guidelines.

Neither Ruben nor Miller returned calls seeking comment.

"This is part of my faith," Hughes responded, according to Mooney. "The Gospel says when you pray, pray in Jesus' name."

The senators next asked to be excused from the floor during the prayer.

Paradoxically, a walk-out over a Muslim cleric's prayer opening a Washington state legislative session last month backfired on one Christian lawmaker.

Washington state Republican Rep. Lois McMahan

As WorldNetDaily reported, Rep. Lois McMahan, a Republican from Gig Harbor, Wash., refused to participate in the prayer and declared, "My god is not Muhammed."

"The Islamic religion is so ... part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be a part of that," she said in an interview with the Seattle Post Intelligencer. "Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America."

But a day later, McMahan apologized on the floor of the state House of Representatives amid mounting furor over her stance.

Debate over invocations is raging elsewhere in the country. As WorldNetDaily reported, several Southern California cities are grappling with threats from both sides of the issue.

Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union to quit using the name Jesus Christ in invocations, the city of Lake Elsinore, in Riverside County, decided to eliminate mention of "religious figures." The decree subsequently had the apparent effect of eliminating the prayer altogether, as no local pastors would accept invitations to deliver the prayer, and city councilors adopted moments of silence instead.

The ACLU contends that praying at the request of a government entity is a violation of the First Amendment's prohibition against the establishment of religion.

But the nonprofit United States Justice Foundation, which threatened to sue the city if it failed to reverse its decision, maintains telling a pastor what to pray is a violation of his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and religion.

The notion of "separation of church and state" is derived from the dissenting opinion of the 1946 Supreme Court case Everson vs. Board of Education, which upheld a program allowing parents to be repaid from state funds for the costs of transportation to private religious schools. The court required only that the state maintain neutrality in its relations with various groups of religious believers.

"The decision in Everson does not rise to the level of being a battle cry for those who would wish to remove every vestige of religion from the public forum," USJF litigation counsel Richard Ackerman asserts.

"There's a push in this country to remove religion from society," Mooney echoed, "from the Supreme Court's decision on the Pledge to the ACLU going after all the Ten Commandments posted across the country. ... Nothing in the church-state relationship allows censorship and the removal of religious values from society."


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christians; ecumenical; hypocrites; jews; liberals; maryland; silliness; watereddown
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To: aruanan
Thank you!

I also believe the re-establishment of the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?
701 posted on 04/04/2003 1:47:17 PM PST by k2blader ("Mercy, detached from Justice, grows unmerciful." - C. S. Lewis)
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To: saradippity
BTW I recommend you read a book called "How To Win Friends And Influence People",you'll find the information he offers much more valuable if you dedicate some time to digging into it. I think it will help you immeasureably more than my advice which would be,"stop stop patronizing me".

You're point is well taken. As I typed my post I reckognized I had an edge to my point. Asking sauropod to defend the stance that the Jewish people are the Chosen People of God is akin to Bill Clinton asking his interviewer to further define the word "is". It's silly and I certainly held that belief as I typed my post. But I did try to soften my edge. Rather than insult you, I made the attempt to encourage you to do the research yourself instead. If that attempt has fallen flat and I've insulted you regardless, then you are correct and I may need to improve my social skills. But that does not excuse you from doing your own research.
702 posted on 04/04/2003 1:53:01 PM PST by so_real
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To: Illbay; hellinahandcart; KLT; countrydummy
OK buddy. I give up. Everybody hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" for IB's sake.

Can't afford to be offensive to anybody. IB is right there with the can of air freshener....

703 posted on 04/04/2003 1:56:59 PM PST by sauropod (Chancellor Palpatine: Madam of the Neo-con Bordello)
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To: Beacon Falls
Ahh yes, Thor. Thank you for the knowledge, that is after all what we all need, no?

How would you like a hammer up your ass?

704 posted on 04/04/2003 1:58:38 PM PST by Hacksaw
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I am curious. Since you don't believe that Jesus is G-d why do you give His written name what seems to be the same honor?

Why don't you consider yourself Jewish?

Thanks.
705 posted on 04/04/2003 1:58:50 PM PST by katnip
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To: so_real; hellinahandcart; Doctor Raoul; KLT; countrydummy
I do NOT appreciate being compared to His Slickness.

Monica never brought me any pizza!

706 posted on 04/04/2003 1:58:59 PM PST by sauropod (Chancellor Palpatine: Madam of the Neo-con Bordello)
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To: Illbay
What you don't have is the "right" to publicly offend when there is no reason on earth why such offense should be given.

You're not still on about that are you. Do you realize how many Christians you offend with your rhetoric in this very forum? Do *you* have the "right to publically offend" when there is "no reason on earth why such offense should be given"? Yes, you do. And everyone here will fight for your right to voice it. We will do the same for Christians in their forums as well.
707 posted on 04/04/2003 1:59:37 PM PST by so_real
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To: so_real
Thank you.
708 posted on 04/04/2003 2:05:41 PM PST by sauropod (I'm a man... But I can change... If I have to.... I guess...................)
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To: sauropod
I do NOT appreciate being compared to His Slickness. Monica never brought me any pizza!

Dang it! Now I've offended someone else!
709 posted on 04/04/2003 2:08:30 PM PST by so_real
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To: so_real
Lighten up bud. I was being funny!
710 posted on 04/04/2003 2:09:32 PM PST by sauropod (I'm a man... But I can change... If I have to.... I guess...................)
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To: Illbay
It is possible to give an "ecumenical prayer" which will be satisfactory to all concerned. I'm sure he knows this.

Honestly, I would say you're flat-out wrong or deluded. We all could name a number of groups (People for the American Way comes to mind) who would find any reference or action towards a personal, i.e. Judeo-Christian God to be offensive. He's an evangelical pastor. He invoked his God. And you're surprised and offended?

You don't hire The Osmonds, and expect them to perform The Residents' Greatest Hits. Why would you expect a protestant minister to invoke a God other than his own?

666 posted on 04/04/2003 1:55 PM MST by Illbay

ROTFL - Illbay, this just hasn't your day. Even the Gods Mods seem to be against you.

711 posted on 04/04/2003 2:15:04 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: sauropod
I should have ended my last post with a smiley -- again, my social skills may be falling flat -- as I did realize you were making funny :-) Gave me a good chuckle in fact. Though the comparison was that you were the interviewer being asked a dumb question and saradippity was Bill Clinton asking the dumb question. (Shoot, now I'm sure I've offended saradippity instead. I can't win.) I've enjoyed your posts. "Illegitimi Non Carborundum Est", my Friend -- Never Let the Bastards Wear you Down.
712 posted on 04/04/2003 2:16:16 PM PST by so_real
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To: Illbay
If they do not want a Christian prayer why ask a Christian to pray?

This is sooo stupid.

If you want a middle of the road prayer hire a Unitarian pastor, not a Baptist.

It is a violation of the Christian faith to pray to G_d without Jesus. There is another issue with praying to a "god" and not Jesus but I will not go into it here.

Suffice to say either stop asking for prayers or stop censoring - the Government cannot censor prayer.
713 posted on 04/04/2003 2:18:45 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (In those days... Every man did that which was right in his own eyes.)
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To: sauropod
Jesus is LORD and part of the Trinity. The Old Testament and the New Testament are not two separate books but parts of the same organism.

Since I once believed exactly as you do but have since seen the light, you can muster no argument that I have not already dealt with in my own mind.

The chr*stian "bible" is an artificial, syncretistic mongrel work given to the world by the Catholic Church. The fact that your only knowledge of the Torah comes from its King James translation along with the "new testament" changes nothing. The moslem "holy qur'an" could be translated into Jacobean English and added to it (after the nt) and then islam would be "in the bible" just as much as is chr*stianity.

BTW, did you know that the King James translation originally included the Apocrypha but that it was gradually removed? So who was right, the originak KJV people or the later ones???

Kindly save any arguments you might have for someone who hasn't already moved from the falsehood of chr*stianity to the Truth of the Torah.

714 posted on 04/04/2003 2:23:03 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (G-d's laws or NONE!!!)
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To: so_real; Corin Stormhands; Wrigley; drstevej; Revelation 911; ksen
From your words, I would say it is fairly obvious you are not a Christian

so_real said this about Illbay. And as far as I can tell, (s)he doesn't even know Illbay, outside of this thread.

Ouch.

715 posted on 04/04/2003 2:23:52 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: katnip
Why don't you consider yourself Jewish?

Because I'm not.

716 posted on 04/04/2003 2:24:48 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (G-d's laws or NONE!!!)
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To: tracer
Simply invoke the name of Gumby and everyone nobody will be offended.........

Not true. The Blockheads would surely be offended.


717 posted on 04/04/2003 2:26:00 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: k2blader
Just out of curiosity, do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?

Well, sure. As C.S. Lewis said (paraphrased from my faulty memory), "To claim what he claimed about himself, Jesus was either insane, on the level of someone who believes himself to be a poached egg, a devil from Hell, or G-d before whom we must bow. He didn't leave us any other choice."
718 posted on 04/04/2003 2:26:34 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Illbay
You have every right to reject his argument "entirely" (or even partially).

What you don't have is the "right" to publicly offend when there is no reason on earth why such offense should be given.

I have no idea what you are talking about, as (so far as I know) I did not say anything offensive (although I did mis-type "pluralism" a couple of times!).

719 posted on 04/04/2003 2:29:25 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (G-d's laws or NONE!!!)
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To: Hacksaw
How would you like a hammer up your ass?

LOL.Thank you for your comment. It has been such a long week. It's Friday afternoon, 5:30pm here in Boston. I needed some levity and for some reason your comment was perfect! Maybe not perfect for this thread, maybe not a perfect response to the other Freeper, but perfect for a good laugh. I have to ask you though, why a hammer, why not a hacksaw?

720 posted on 04/04/2003 2:31:20 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Alex Murphy; Corin Stormhands; Wrigley; drstevej; Revelation 911; ksen
so_real said this about Illbay. And as far as I can tell, (s)he doesn't even know Illbay, outside of this thread.Ouch.

Illbay has numerous postings to this thread which have caused me to surmise this. Please do read them all. If I am mistaken, Illbay needs only to tell me as much. Until then, if it doesn't quack like a duck or swim like a duck, it ain't a duck :-) Nothing wrong with that, is there?
721 posted on 04/04/2003 2:35:37 PM PST by so_real
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To: Alex Murphy
I stand corrected!! 8~)
722 posted on 04/04/2003 2:40:27 PM PST by tracer (/b>)
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To: Illbay
You should be aware that Gumbism is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. It stresses flexibility in all things.

Yours in Gumby,

tracer

723 posted on 04/04/2003 2:43:09 PM PST by tracer (/b>)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Little touchy and bit pious,

The Massorh, Great and Small are wonderful study tools for modern Christians who do not have the benefit of the Hebrew and Greek language.

The original 16ll King James had a letter to the reader cautioning the readers of disagreements of the translation.

Truth of the Torah should be a part of Christians study, because without either one the whole makes no sense.

Christ Himself taught from the Old Testment and the writers of the New Testment were taught from the Old Testment. Paul probably was the best learned in the Hebrew, Old Testment.

Interesting how you seem to try and take the high ground on part of the picture.
724 posted on 04/04/2003 2:44:00 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Captain Beyond
When I said it, that was a reference about the discussion on this thread and not prayer. As thousands of ministers prove every day, leading a nondemoninational prayer is not a dilution of Christianity. That's all.
725 posted on 04/04/2003 2:47:27 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: Illbay
He wasn't invited to prosletyze.

Neither are those mormon boys who show up on my doorstep.

726 posted on 04/04/2003 2:50:22 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Illbay
Wow, Illbay, you're on a roll: making up for all of the perceived muslim-trashing you're so eager to point out on other threads! You, go, dude!
727 posted on 04/04/2003 2:57:16 PM PST by rabidralph (Hey, Saddumb, All Your Base Are Belong To Us)
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To: so_real; Corin Stormhands; Wrigley; drstevej; Revelation 911; ksen
Illbay has numerous postings to this thread which have caused me to surmise this. Please do read them all. If I am mistaken, Illbay needs only to tell me as much.

I've read them, trust me. I'd like to think Illbay's just having a really bad week. Some would say your conclusions are mistaken, and others would disagree. Chalk it up to Illbay buying his Dr. Dentons at a different store than Sears.

Until then, if it doesn't quack like a duck or swim like a duck, it ain't a duck :-)

Ever think about a career in Meteorology?

728 posted on 04/04/2003 3:00:31 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Actually, I was refering to Sauropod's missive to YOU. I included you in my post.
729 posted on 04/04/2003 3:00:48 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: Wrigley
And you can let them know that. They are very gracious, and used to the word "no."
730 posted on 04/04/2003 3:02:35 PM PST by Illbay (Don't believe every tagline you read - including this one)
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To: Wrigley
wonder what a mormon public prayer is? O heavenly self, etc etc etc.. in illbay's name I pray?
731 posted on 04/04/2003 3:02:47 PM PST by JesseShurun
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To: Illbay; Dr. Eckleburg
I've made you some cookies
732 posted on 04/04/2003 3:05:55 PM PST by JesseShurun
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To: honway
This is outrageous -- but not surprising, in these pathetic times for Christians.

The article says the preacher was preceded by three rabbis, to whom the Christian majority apparently didn't object. Yet, I imagine if they went over the rabbis words they could find something objectionable -- at the very least the failure to mention Jesus.
733 posted on 04/04/2003 3:06:27 PM PST by Goodman26
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To: Illbay; Wrigley
No, no Wrigley. I will say, without a doubt, the Jehovah's Witness' are far worse than any Mormon kid on a bike. The Mormons will take no for an answer, and go away, but the Jheovah's Witness people will just your doorstep or mailbox with their tracts when you tell them no. So, Ilbay, at least the Mormons are better behaved.
734 posted on 04/04/2003 3:10:59 PM PST by Bella_Bru (For all your tagline needs. Don't delay! Orders shipped overnight.)
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To: sinkspur
"The length of this thread, and the number of people who just continually talk past each other, proves that the time for prayer before legislative sessions should be done away with entirely."

What IS "proven" is the length that some will people go to distort reality and invalidating an American tradition in the name of their own agendae -- that somehow prayer or the evocation of the Deity of our Founding Fathers is suddenly offensive and taboo.

Adams and Madison would be agast at what is transpiring.

735 posted on 04/04/2003 3:13:03 PM PST by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: Alex Murphy
Ever think about a career in Meteorology?

I can't see the picture (broken link) at the top of the page :-( But the postings are a riot! Is there a "meteorology underground"? Where do I sign up? :-) Thanks!
736 posted on 04/04/2003 3:13:17 PM PST by so_real
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To: so_real
Domini Domini Domini.

I hereby confer, upon the one known as so_real, the honorary title of

FR Meteorologist

including all the powers, rights, authorities, and responsibilities accorded therein.

And may God have mercy upon your soul.

Trust me, you've earned the title! You are now permitted to enter the super-secret Society snack bar at your discretion.

737 posted on 04/04/2003 3:25:35 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: F16Fighter
Adams and Madison would be agast at what is transpiring.

Agreed. I wish they were here discuss this with us.
738 posted on 04/04/2003 3:26:12 PM PST by so_real
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I greatly respect your position as a righteous gentile. My only obesrvation is that it would probably be proper to ask what the law proscribes in such an event.

I think that it is probably the case that since this country is not a "Jewish" country, halacha does not require one to publicly argue with religious leaders from other faiths.

Matter of fact, there is a great deal of debate amongst Jewish legal authorities whether it is halachly permissable for a non-Jew to worship as a Christian. Unfortunately, on those issues that really matter, such as the defense of Jews in Israel, Jews have halachly erred far more greatly in current action than the public debate over this issue here in America. It is hard for me to get worked up about all this.

739 posted on 04/04/2003 3:31:50 PM PST by Nachum
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To: sauropod
A pastor friend of mine who was to pray at an Arkansas Razorback football game was asked not to use Jesus' name because it would offend the rabbis. He said that would be fine, if, when the rabbi prayed that the rabbi be required to use Jesus name so as not to offend the Christian ministers. They let the pastor pray his usual prayer.

Why Christians are so insistent on Jesus' name:

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

GOOD ADVICE FROM A WISE HEBREW OF OLD: Act 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

740 posted on 04/04/2003 3:39:31 PM PST by razorbak
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To: F16Fighter
that somehow prayer or the evocation of the Deity of our Founding Fathers is suddenly offensive and taboo.

I don't recall reading much about the Founding Fathers invoking Jesus. Lots of references to God, however.

741 posted on 04/04/2003 3:46:39 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I don't recall reading much about the Founding Fathers invoking Jesus. Lots of references to God, however.

Then you really should do a little more reading :-) Start here: The Founding Fathers and Deism by David Barton
742 posted on 04/04/2003 3:52:37 PM PST by so_real
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To: Bella_Bru
Don't put words in my mouth. I have stated fact, you figure out the rest. My statement stands.
743 posted on 04/04/2003 3:52:56 PM PST by ApesForEvolution (Yes, let us allow the economies of gerdung, frunk, mexiztlan, chirushcom and canadastan to wither...)
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To: Bella_Bru
Dear Friend, Have you ever read in the New Testament where Jesus says, "ask anything in my name". I take him at his word a man who never lied, so when I pray, I ask it in the name of Jesus, apparantly this gentleman does too. I must say also that I am shocked at the tone of the majority of the replies, I would expect many of them to be on a liberal site but not FreeRepublic.com. I am praying for you all, in Jesus' name of course.
744 posted on 04/04/2003 4:00:15 PM PST by Ferndina
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To: so_real
"I wish they [Adams and Madison] were here discuss this with us."

And some of the same people on this board would accuse them of "insensitivies" and tacit "evangelism."

745 posted on 04/04/2003 4:02:58 PM PST by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: ApesForEvolution
I'm a Deist, whatever that is, but I would never permit a prayer invoking God related to anything government, like the Pledge of Allegience or prayer in Congress, out of respect to those who claim to be Atheists, whatever that is. It's called separation of state and church, like that now in Iraq. I feel all of you are wrong here as you are on the invasion of Iraq. We can win the war but lose the peace for generations to come. And that's stupid.
746 posted on 04/04/2003 4:11:20 PM PST by thatstan
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To: sinkspur
"I don't recall reading much about the Founding Fathers invoking Jesus. Lots of references to God, however."

True, they weren't over the top in their respective public evocations of Jesus Christ...

But then again they were consciously intent in maintaining a secular government in the early days, and thus were understandably more reserved about their personal Christian beliefs.

747 posted on 04/04/2003 4:15:40 PM PST by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: F16Fighter
But then again they were consciously intent in maintaining a secular government in the early days, and thus were understandably more reserved about their personal Christian beliefs.

They were wise. Maybe they foresaw 800 posts on a FR thread involving people on the same side politically fighting like cats and dogs over a prayer.

748 posted on 04/04/2003 4:18:52 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Illbay
That's a word more people should tell them.
749 posted on 04/04/2003 4:26:32 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: sinkspur
"They were wise. Maybe they foresaw 800 posts on a FR thread involving people on the same side politically fighting like cats and dogs over a prayer."

LOL -- I guess it's part of what makes FR so "special."

750 posted on 04/04/2003 4:27:23 PM PST by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 748 | View Replies]


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