Kurds and Turks [Turkish Editorial]

Milliyet ^ | 4/11/2003 | Taha Akyol

[a_Turk]

Kurds and Turks

Deceased Iranian Kurdish Leader Abdurrahman Qasýmlu wrote in his book "Iranian Kurdistan" that historiacally the Kurds are mountain nomads, that for that reason they were able to protect their personalities and migrant clan systems, but that they for the same reason were unable to evolve socially.

This is the reason that the Kurds have no country.

Claude Cahen the historian writes in his book "Turks in Anatolia" that the Turks have historically been plains nomads, that they had therefore been able to span vast geographical extents in an organized fashion, that they were able to make the transition to urban life with greate ease. This is the reason why the Turks have been able to found state after state.. That one had a mountain character and the other plains, had prevented clashes throughout history and has made it easier for them to cooperate.

Ziya Gökalp had written that the Turks and Kurds had found it easy to turn towards each other, yet lacking the "desert" character had made it difficult for them to mix with the Arabs. Enter today's Irak.

***

The term KURDISTAN had first been used by the Selcuk Turks (1040 - 1408). It referred to a vast mountinous area in the east of Iran (yes, east). That's the original land of the Kurds. Later, in the shared geography of Islam, the clans mixed for centuries. The armies of Salahaddin Eyyubi were predominantly Turkish and Kurdish.

North of the Van lake was predominantly Armenian before the Turks entered Anatolia. Also according to Cahen, while the Turks were conquering Anatolia, the Kurds, along with their Oghuz (that's us, the Turks of Anatolia are Oghuz Turks) brethren spread across the plateaus east of the Euphrates. The plains further west, namely in inner and Aegean Anatolia did not inspire the Kurds as much as they did the Turks.

Graham Fuller, and even anti-Turk authors such as John Bulloc wrote that the Kurds were integrated in Turkey like they were no where else, and that Turks and Kurds were today by and large fully intermixed. The root cause of this is explained in the short recap of history I just provided.

The integration of Turk and Kurd became permanent with the large scale urbanization witnessed in Turkey which started in the 50s and gained serious momentum in the 80s.

***

To draw internal borders in a country such as Turkey where the children of an empire are integrated to such an extent is now impossible. Therefore the subject of Kurdish ethnicity in Turkey can not be seen as that of a seperate nation, but as a subject of democracy. Needles to say, to be a nation does not require ethnic singularity. Mutual historic and social integration, as well as concepts such as country and citizenship are far more important.

I don't feel foreign at all in Diyarbakir, but how about when I visit Tashkent (ancient Turkic)? Just like Turkish Kurds don't feel like strangers in Izmir, but how about when they visit Dohuk?

Therefore there are things more important than ethnicity. Why can Barzani (KDP) and Talabani (PUK) not integrate? When threatened by Talabani's occupation of Kirkuk, did Barzani not ask Turkey for help?!

In his book "The Kurds", David McDowal explains that Barzani is "Kirmanch" and that Talabani is "Sorani," and that these two dialects can never get along, and that the problem there is not a "party" problem, but that it is an enmity between two different ethnic clans..

Thus: Naturally ethnic identity is important, but concepts like country, citizenship, historic togetherness, social integration and shared fate are more important.

Irak is Irak, and Turkey is Turkey!

Certainly, as a realist, what is in Turkeys interest is in the interest of her 70 million. I look at everything in Irak fromthat perspective.

[a_Turk]

Here's an opinion/ historical recap with references..

[a_Turk]

Thought you might find this interesting.

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[MEG33]

I do .

[Andy from Beaverton]

I'm getting the impression that Turks look down at Kurds as inferior. Do Kurds equal Armenians in Turkish eyes?

[Illbay]

This is the reason that the Kurds have no country.

Then how do you explain Switzerland? Nepal? Tibet? Peru?

[Illbay]

I thought the main problem with Armenians was that they were Christian.

Is that not so?

[aristotleman]

Oh-oh.

You posted something that contradicts the view that Kurds are an opressed people conquered by the bloodthirsty Turks and made to work as slaves, killed and ostracized.

In five minutes, the whole of the Greek/Balkan troll lobby on FR will be on your case regurgitating the crap they learned in elementary school.

[a_Turk]

>> I'm getting the impression that Turks look down at Kurds as inferior.

The author summed up a few books by foreigners.

We had a Kurdish president.

Folks in Switzerand weren't nomads.

According to the Turkish constitution all citizens are equal, no matter what their ethnic background.

[truth_seeker]

Like France, Turkey opted to play a risky game with the US/British war planning.

Kurds are looking pretty good, at present. Wise choices, well planned strategies & tactics, well executed.

If the USSR, Yugoslavia and Chzechoslovakia can be successfully broken into ethnic nations, why not Kurdistan?

What right does Turkey, Syria or Iran have, to administer lands, at the expense of a minority ethnic group?

[a_Turk]

>> I thought the main problem with Armenians was that they were Christian.

That's not true. Armenians did very well in all parts of life until they were seduced by the Russians. Religion was the tool the Russians used..

[a_Turk]

Everyone with k9 teeth is a meateater

:^ /

[Dog Gone]

I've got a serious question for you. The Turks are poised at the border of Iraq threatening to intervene if the Kurdish forces remain in Kirkuk and Mosul. Fortunately, it appears that they are withdrawing as US troops enter.

But, as long as the Kurds aren't threatening to declare an independent country (which they aren't, at least yet), how long can Turkey insist that Kurds NOT go into Iraqi cities? The Kurds are Iraqis, after all, and if they want to move to Baghdad, Basra, or Mosul, I really don't think it's any of Turkey's business.

[aristotleman]

If the Kurds stop supporting those amongst them who favor terror and destruction, they will be immediately better off. In the long run, they may even gain an independant territory, if Turkey starts thinking in "cantons" some day.

It's possible. Only if the extremists lay down their arms.

Regular Turks and Regular Kurds have nothing against each other.

[a_Turk]

Turkey, like the US can determine what her business is and is not..

??

The order given by the PUK commander a few nights ago to enter Kirkuk w/o US go ahead nor knowledge was a test for both the US and Turkey. What they are doing now, in fact, what the US is having them do now, is a direct result of Turkish sabre rattling.

Te part about them being Irakis remains to be enforced and then proven. Right now it's wise to live in the moment, rather than romantically living in the distant and dreamy future..

[Little Bill]

I was under the impression that the Kurds were of IndoEuropean language group, it seems that I was wrong.

[a_Turk]

>> Regular Turks and Regular Kurds have nothing against each other.

Not only that, but they are hopelessly intermixed..

[aristotleman]

You don't learn that in Greek school propaganda.

[tomahawk]

Can Kurdish be taught in Turkish schools?

[a_Turk]

>> I was under the impression that the Kurds were of IndoEuropean language group

You are correct. Kurdish is grouped under Persian. As are other languages some of which may have heared of: Balochi, Pashtu, Tajiki, etc.

[a_Turk]

And Persian is Indo-European as are Hindi, Urdu, Slavonic, Latin, Germanic, and the Romance languages..

[a_Turk]

>> Can Kurdish be taught in Turkish schools?

Private schools so far.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

It is the oldest Christian Country.
The people are very nice and smart.
I spent the winter of 97/98 in Armenia.
The people are under employed, my driver
was a mecanical engineer and my interpreter
was a physicist.

[a_Turk]

I have no clue what they teach in Greek schools, but I'm sure by now (through experience) that your USA schools teach some real fallacies on this subject..

[Mortimer Snavely]

"... ethnic identity is important, but concepts like country, citizenship, historic togetherness, social integration and shared fate are more important. "

This is what it's all about.

[a_Turk]

I wish we didn't have such clueless politicians in Turkey. It takes no end.. During the nineties the Kurds in north Irak had asked Turkey if they could use the Turkish Lira as their monetary unit (of all units!).. Our government flatly turned them down. Chickens, I swear..

[a_Turk]

I used to sit in the frontmost row all throughout highschool, in Istanbul, with my friend Aret, an Armenian, next to me. The class was made up of 25% Armenians.

Aret's father was a Chemist. He's a doctor now. Their family hobby, throughout the ages, was to sweep the gold quarter of the grand bazaar.

The dust went straight home for electrolysis.. I don't know what they used to do with the dust before that technique was discovered, probably smelt it..

Smart is right! And he was a good friend.

[PoisedWoman]

Bump to you.

[Little Bill]

Thank you, I was aware of the others. The Kurds are a hidden people to we in the West, some mention in the history of WW1, but other than that a blank, thanks again for the information.

[a_Turk]

No problem. Note the Kurdish area in north eastern Iran. This is where Kurds migrated from originally, not the other way around. Just like we Turks migrated westward through those areas:



Neither of our people are going anywhere, so we might as well turn a deaf ear to external influences and learn to all get along again.

[2nd Amendment]

Kurds and turks can't intermarry. They would be called kurks or something like that.

[Mortimer Snavely]

"I wish we didn't have such clueless politicians in Turkey..."

I'm sorry to say that I think that, economically, at least, things will get worse before they get better. If the pipeline gets frittered away in cozy back-room deals with no real widespread, productive, industrial economic progress in the Southeast, there will be some serious problems which will require some rather drastic solutions.

[a_Turk]

>> Kurds and turks can't intermarry

No, they can and they do. You're thinking about Germans and Turks..

:^ \

[a_Turk]

I dunno.. Our economy grew by 7.8% last year. Inflation targets are being met. An a lot of the stuff Irak needs will be coming from Turkey. Already orders are in for various things, mostly food items.

But back to the politicians: Rumsfeld's been broadcasting that he would like the coalition to chip in with cops.. Nothing happ'nin' in the Turkish foreign ministry.. Clueless!!

[Mortimer Snavely]

"Our economy grew by 7.8% last year. Inflation targets are being met. An a lot of the stuff Irak needs will be coming from Turkey. Already orders are in for various things, mostly food items. "

This is good news. Given the recent collapse of the Iraqi dinar, I would think that New Iraq will be an excellent place to export Turkish Lira loans to pay for these Turkish imports. This will boost the TL. A "TL" zone, similar to the one in Northern Iraq you mentioned earlier in this thread, would boost the Turkish economy quit a bit, with Turkey exporting both capital and commodities.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As far as clueless politicians are concerned, you are describing a problem which is infecting the entire civilized world. The reason is posited here:

"After years of studying politics I have come to the only explanation of the politics of recent years that explans everything.

Running for, and holding, political office is an effective government affirmative action program for hiring the severely mentally handicapped. It gives mental defectives something to do. It makes them feel good about themselves. It keeps them off the street where they might otherwise hurt themselves. It does not require mental competence. It lets the mentally handicapped feel they are leading productive lives. The presidential frontrunners and the sitting president would be incapable of doing anything else.

It explains everything. "

Comprehensive Political Analysis

[Destro]

If we are going to play at that logic...and Turkey is Ionia. Turks go home to Central Asia!

[Mortimer Snavely]

Destro is obviously a likely candidate for office.

[a_Turk]

>> If we are going to play at that logic

What logic, Destro? The editorial does not speak about where anybody should go at all!

Genius as usual..

[jlogajan]

Kurds and turks can't intermarry. They would be called kurks or something like that.

heh heh. Try saying "Kurds and Turks" real fast 10 times in a row. :-)

[samtheman]

1. A Free Tibetan Republic
2. An Independent Kurdish State
3. A Palestinian Homeland

Two of these three are legitimate goals. Only one is phoney.

[jackbob]

Regular Turks and Regular Kurds have nothing against each other.

Oh? If that were true, then the Turks would not have mobilized. Facts on the ground, contradict dreams in the sky. But I hope you future facts prove you right.

[jackbob]

"... ethnic identity is important, but concepts like country, citizenship, historic togetherness, social integration and shared fate are more important. "

More important? Sure, with regard to "shared fate." But as for the rest of it, how about "equally important"? And this is what it should "be all about."

[jackbob]

Lets see, if we change "3. A Palestinian Homeland" to Palestinian State, then all three are legitimate goals.

[a_Turk]

>> Facts on the ground, contradict dreams in the sky.

Facts on the ground are unknown to you pillow butted butter fingers.. LOL!

[samtheman]

Sorry.

Wrong answer.

There already is a Palestinian State.

Jordan.

[a_Turk]

What's more important in the USA? That you're of Italian, Irish, German, or English ethnicity? Or that you're all Americans?

Forget it man.. No need to answer..

[Mortimer Snavely]

Check out a_Turk's response above.

[jackbob]

Fact on the ground, Turks mobilized on the border. Unless you are saying its a lie that the news media has been spreading. If so, be a man and come out and say it. Or are you one of those cowards who insult when presented a fact that contradicts your child like dream?

Again, I hope you are right.

[jackbob]

Wrong answer? According to who? While World opinion, and the majority of American opinion, should not be a basis for deciding right from wrong, I think it can be safely taken at face value that next to no one considers Jordan and the future Palestinian State to be one and the same.