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Hidden Women.. [Turkish Editorial]
Hurriyet ^ | 4/25/2003 | Bekir COŞKUN

Posted on 04/25/2003 11:10:30 AM PDT by a_Turk

The fundamentalists have denied women.

Women have been assumed not to exist in law, social life, in business.

While counting two women's witness equal to one man's, they've made women second class.

They bought and sold her like a commodity.

There's not one woman in any assembly outside the closed family unit.

They wouldn't even let them enter places of worship.

And even when they finally had to leave this world they love, women do not take their place at the final ceremonies held in mosque courtyards..

*

From northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan, without exception, this is the reason for the lands of Islam being so poor, backward, and oppressed.

Any country where you ignore fifty percent of the population, any country where you reduce the workforce by fifty percent and force them to be consumers only..

Any country where you exclude those creative, loving, peaceful women from political office and force them to remain at home..

That country will be bankrupt..

Just like the muslim countries from northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan.

*

And Turkey?

Because it is home to women a bit more free, a bit more respected, a bit more vocal, Turkey is a bit less bankrupt in comparison.

That is why the headscarf discussion is important.

Outside of the shows by the speaker of Parliament, the ruling party wives are home, quiet, and almost non-existent.

That's what bothers me..

Hidden women whose silhouettes can occasionally be seen in the media, who are seated in the back rows at celebrations, who are horrified of the media, who don't know what to do, who are forbidden to speak..

Sure they deserve respect.

They are each mothers..

Home makers, who weep during hard times, who cannot show their happiness during good days, intimidated..

And to top it off, prisoners of an ideology which is criticized and blamed by at least seventy five percent of the population..

Women who can't just say: "If it's a problem, I'll remove my turban.."

That's what bothers me..

Women who exist, but almost don't.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: freedom; fundamentalism; headscarf; islam; islamists; turkey
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1 posted on 04/25/2003 11:10:30 AM PDT by a_Turk
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To: a_Turk
Slowly and slowly the changes will come.
2 posted on 04/25/2003 11:12:31 AM PDT by sarasota
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To: a_Turk
Thanks for the ping.

I see feminists as the betrayers of women around the world..."we get freedom, but we won't work for yours, sisters."

Freedom of conscience does matter. The headscarf and all religious choices need to be free to be spiritually valid.
3 posted on 04/25/2003 11:14:04 AM PDT by ChemistCat (My new bumper sticker: MY OTHER DRIVER IS A ROCKET SCIENTIST)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: sarasota
Caste systems of any type and degree retard progress and prosperity.
5 posted on 04/25/2003 11:18:30 AM PDT by Lorianne
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To: a_Turk
Because it is home to women a bit more free, a bit more respected, a bit more vocal, Turkey is a bit less bankrupt in comparison.

That quote says it all, how sad.

6 posted on 04/25/2003 11:18:56 AM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: sparky samson
Or...women voters? (I didn't really say that, did I?.....I don't mean it....I just want thinking women to VOTE, not feeling women.)
7 posted on 04/25/2003 11:28:36 AM PDT by goodnesswins (THANK a service member for your FREEDOM, and thank a business owner for your job.)
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To: a_Turk
Great article, a_Turk. The dichotomy between this and the West's perspective on women is incredible, don't you think? I do think the head scarf issue is a big one in Turkey -- particularly with Turkey's stance on secularism.
8 posted on 04/25/2003 11:43:30 AM PDT by alethia
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To: sparky samson; goodnesswins
Female citizens of Turkey have every right that men have, guaranteed by law. That's since 1926. First female supreme court member, I believe, was in Turkey. My grandmother was the third female to ever be a judge in Turkey, back in the late thirties.

How many take advantage of these laws? About 60%. Why not all? You can take a horse to water, but....
9 posted on 04/25/2003 11:51:50 AM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: alethia
When not used for protecting against weather, headscarves are a symbol of female oppression..
10 posted on 04/25/2003 11:53:26 AM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: a_Turk
This was a nice article, and it is my wish that all people in this world could be free as I am. I studied Islam several years ago, just to see why anyone in this world in the year of 2003 would believe in such an oppressive thing as Islam. Islam got it's toe hold in the world during the Dark Ages, and it has managed to keep Muslims punishing other Muslims to perpetuate Islam. Many people around the world want to leave Islam, but they live under threat of death, torture, or other cruelty, and it would seem that just anyone would know that this is evil, and not want to be a part of this. When I see Muslims coming to this country hoping to push such an evil on us, I just shudder.
God forbid!
13 posted on 04/25/2003 1:03:17 PM PDT by tessalu
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To: tessalu
Female oppression is not Islamic that I know. As Socrates beat his students to educate them, Islam teaches to educate women along the same lines (LOL!).. It's all in the interpretation.

Women and veils have their origins in ancient Sumeria......

The priestesses at the temples of the fertility god would have sex with worshippers. They wore a veil to not be recognized.

When they got pregnant, the infant was killed, so as not to have "god's kid" running around.........

Some centuries later, some monarch decreed that all women who have sex should wear veils. Thus the veiled married women of the area....

Also consider another reasson for the oppression of women.. Dominance of the sexes goes through very slow cycles. The dominant sex very early on was the female. Thus: mother earth.. We still have her. Guys in some areas of the middle east will not urinate standing up, but they will do it kneeling.. Out of some sort of respect for a long gone diety.. Mother earth.

Once men figured out their part in conception, however, things slowly started changing. The world over thousands of years became mostly a man's world - you can see this through the disappearance of female dieties all together, with the possible exception of Mary, who is not considered a diety, but something like the "wife" of God (take this with a grain of salt), in whose symbol the remnants of female dominance over men barely hangs on by its white knuckled hands..

It will be a long time before our image of God will be a female once again (is God a black woman?).. As I said, this is one cycle that moves extremely slow compared to other things like fashion, or what body type is considered sexy, etc.
14 posted on 04/25/2003 1:16:31 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: ChemistCat
The feminists are the "France" of the women's movement.

"Our butts are safe and warm, sorry about yours."

"Besides, we're too busy making sure everyone can kill their unborn children without consequences to worry about how women live in Islamic countries."
15 posted on 04/25/2003 4:26:27 PM PDT by DED (Liberals Never Learn. *LNL*)
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To: a_Turk
What a great post, and an unexpectedly strong position in an unexpected place.

I would certainly like to see more articles like this one from nations we don't understand very well.
16 posted on 04/25/2003 4:28:42 PM PDT by DED (Liberals Never Learn. *LNL*)
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To: Shermy; aristotleman; prairiebreeze; Dog Gone; AM2000; ARCADIA; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...
Couldn't ping you from work ping..
17 posted on 04/25/2003 5:40:16 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: DED
>> an unexpectedly strong position in an unexpected place.

But the position of Turkish women in Turkish society has always historically been an equal one, admittedly more so before the Arabian influence of the eighth century.. Men and women fought their enemies together side by side.. A tradition which surfaced again during our war of independence following WW1.
18 posted on 04/25/2003 5:46:51 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: a_Turk
Turkish Women: Past, Present and the Future

(dofa.org) -Halide Edib ADIVAR, a Turkish woman in her late twenties and mother of two, divorced her husband, a famous mathematics professor, because she rejected his taking a second wife. This was a very courageous act back in 1910 during the time of the Ottoman Empire, when men were allowed to marry more than one woman and when the social and legal equality of men and women was still a distant dream in the Turkish society.

Much has changed since then, thanks to Halide Edib and other leaders of the women's emancipation movement in Turkey. This year, more than 30 million Turkish women will once again join women from all around the world as they celebrate March 8, the International Women's Day, to acknowledge their struggle and accomplishments on the road to improved lives and equality.

Turkish people, both women and men, sure have a lot to celebrate. Today, literacy and professional-employment rates for Turkish women are higher than anywhere else in the Middle East and compare well against even the developed countries in Europe and America.

In the fields of architecture, science, medicine, pharmacy and law, at least one out of three employed is a woman. In colleges women constitute about 35 percent of the faculty. Almost 40 percent of all young traders at the Istanbul Stock Exchange are women. Even in the technical world of engineering, with a participation level of 12 percent, Turkish women are slightly ahead of their American counterparts.

Moreover, Turkey has an expanding list of women writers, actors, artists and musicians with international acclaim, such as the first woman ceramics professor Jale Yilmabasar and the opera diva Leyla Gencer.

The positive changes in the status of Turkish women started as early as in 1857 with the new law that gave male and female children equal rights of inheritance. Also in the second half of the nineteenth century, the first midwifery school opened its doors and junior high schools for girls were established. Further education reforms allowed the opening of trade schools, teachers' training schools and the first institute of higher learning for women.

The start of the "Turk Ocagi" (Turkish Hearth) clubs in 1912 helped to raise Turkish educational standards and encouraged social and economic progress. This program, in which Halide Edib also played a major role, included public lectures attended by men and women together, a great social innovation for the time. Soon, women columnists began appearing in newspapers and magazines, and numerous women's organizations were started including the "Society for the Elevation of Women" established by Halide Edib, who around this time had also published her famous novel Handan ("Family") about the problems of an educated woman. Finally, in 1917, a decree was issued granting women the right to initiate divorce proceedings and the right to refuse a polygamous marriage.

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and its allies during World War I, the attempt of the victorious allies to control the Anatolian territory led to the Turkish War of Independence. During the four years of this epic war, women fought with ardor for their national liberation alongside the men, not just by providing support for the battle front, but also taking such roles as press advisor, interpreter and spokesperson. There are countless documents today that convey the tremendous contribution of women during this great war, which ended with victory in 1923.

After the foundation of the Turkish Republic, which celebrated its 75th anniversary last October, rapid and significant progress was made on women's rights, with great support from Ataturk, the founder and the first president of the republic.

Ataturk had abiding faith in the vital importance of women in society and launched many reforms to change the religious-based social and legal structures of the former Ottoman Empire. Within the first three years of the young republic, passage of the law on the unification of the educational system, on general apparel and the civil code were all major steps in giving women greater freedom and opportunities in society. Primary education became free and compulsory for both men and women, further leveling the playing field between the sexes. They became equal in the eyes of the law on matters concerning marriage, divorce, guardianship and inheritance. Furthermore, the 1934 law granting Turkish women the right to elect and be elected to the national assembly gave them a higher status than was enjoyed by women in many other countries at the time.

In comparison, French women gained the same rights in 1944, Italian women in 1945 and the Swiss in 1971. Halide Edib, then a professor of English literature at Istanbul University and married to politician Dr. Adnan Adivar, became one of the earlier members of the Turkish parliament. More recently, Turkey became one of only a few countries in the world to have a woman serve as a prime minister.

Despite all the rights gained by law and the rosy pictures from public and professional life, Turkish women still face a long road in terms of closing the disparity with men and leading improved and more fulfilled lives.

There are thousands of Turkish women who are denied education among other basic rights. Illiteracy remains a major problem, with a rate of nearly 30 percent for women, which is almost three times higher than the rate for men. Even though overall female participation rate in the labor force is 35 percent (less than 20 percent in the cities), lagging slightly behind the United States, three out of every four women in the work force work in agriculture as unpaid family workers with no social security coverage. Close to 30 percent of the Turkish women are beaten up severely, many of them constantly, by their husbands or other members of their families. The representation of women in the national assembly today is less than three percent.

Tradition dies hard, and attitudes of the common people, despite rights by law, sometimes pose the biggest obstacle in the way. On the bright side, an increasing number of both governmental and volunteer-supported organizations and networks are taking the lead to create awareness as well as formulate solutions. Of these, the Directorate General on the Status of and Problems of Women (http://www.kssgm.gov.tr), which is established in 1990 and attached to the Ministry of State for Women's Affairs and Social Services, formulates policies in line with the provisions of the 1986 Convention on the elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAR) and the 1989 European Social Charter.

"The National Action Plan of Turkey", prepared in the light of the 4th World Conference on Women in Beijing (1995), declared women's education, training, health and their fight against domestic violence as its top critical areas of concern to take action. Turkey sent a large delegation, 31 people, to Beijing and was one of the four major sponsors of the Peace Train, a United Nations Development Program (UNDP) project featuring on-board training for women facing the challenges of democratization and economic liberation.

Another major initiative, "The National Program for the Enhancement of Women's Integration in Development", also supported by UNDP, was established in 1992 and has been active in the areas of training, research, statistical publications, and pilot projects aiming at generating income for women.

The program has been so successful since its inception that UNDP uses it as a model for other countries in similar positions. Among its numerous accomplishments is the establishment of research centers in four universities, one of which also offers a graduate program.

Among volunteer organizations, the Foundation for Women's Solidarity aims at raising public awareness about and fighting against violence towards women; the Association for Supporting and Educating Women Candidates works towards increasing the involvement of Turkish women in politics and their representation in the national assembly; and the Association for Supporting Contemporary Life organizes ongoing projects to improve the education, skills and social status of Turkish women.

Certainly there is a lot to be done for women in Turkey and achievement will come neither easily nor soon. Halide Edib Adivar's many faceted examination of Turkish women, their roles, rights, and dilemmas, continues to still maintain its validity today.

Like the heroines of her novels, Turkish women, with strong personalities and combining the traits of both western and Turkish cultures, proudly hold hands with women of all nations to celebrate the history, the present and the brighter future of women everywhere.
19 posted on 04/25/2003 5:49:49 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: goodnesswins
I both think and feel that your remark was puerile, in contrast to your screen name.
20 posted on 04/25/2003 6:18:35 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: SeattleTiger
I guess you didn't read the WHOLE remark....and, goodness isn't always NICE. Thanks for sharing your feelings and thoughts, though.
21 posted on 04/25/2003 6:33:52 PM PDT by goodnesswins (THANK a service member for your FREEDOM, and thank a business owner for your job.)
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To: DED
Unexpected country?

Women won full electoral rights in 1934.

The world's first female combat pilot was Sabiha Gokcen in 1934.

The first female combat jet pilot in NATO (including the USA) was Leman Bozkurt Altincekic (1958).

There were 17 women in the Turkish parliament in 1935.

I could go on ...

22 posted on 04/25/2003 6:43:33 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: a_Turk
Fascinating. You do have a lot of knowledge about history and anthropology. You set me straight on the origins of the Slavs if I remember correctly. I was impressed.

Now, I want to mention two things today, one of which pertains to females in Turkey and one of which does not. The second point pertains to incursions on the Northern border of Iraq.

First things first... I am just going to say what I read from memory and not search for the correct facts on the internet to give me a false aura of knowing what the heck is going on in Asia Minor. Here goes...

I read in the Wall Street Journal something about the Military boycotting a recent National holiday because they feared the wife of Prime Minister Erdogan would wear a veil, and since it is illegal, they did not want to be a part of the ceremonies. I am ignorant of what the celebration was about. I apoligize for my ignorance.

Ok, on to number two... Turkish Special Forces agents were intercepted trying to get to Kirkuk. They were in civilian clothes and following a supply train into the city. The US Army thinks that they were attempting to spread unrest through the ethnic Turkish population. This troubles me.

I know I might not have my facts straight as I just posted this returning from a long day at work and have not checked my sources and facts. I will add that my second point is true even if I messed up the details. A Turkish Specops team DID get detained on the Northern Iraq border. It does not surprise me but the US is reforming on the Reagan idealogy of superior Intel with a superior Military. I don't think it is wise for Turkey to be making these gestures.

I know about the Kurds and I understand the situation and it would surprise me if Turkey had NOT done this. Nevertheless, in the long run, it would be wise not to interfere with the US in Iraq.

23 posted on 04/25/2003 6:59:41 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: a_Turk
Kind of a dumb article. Politicians often prefer quiet decorous trophy wives.

It doesn't seem to me that the political wives are in any way representative of Turkish society so these pol molls are just in their own little cultural backwater, probably not too miserable and perhaps even rather content.

As far as Islam and its effects on treatment of women in other Islamic countries, I think that is intrisic to the system. However, female participation in all facets of life do not necessarily constitute whether a country is backward and repressive. Many of the accusations legimately levelled at the vast majority of backward Muslim countries have more to do with history and economics and the lack of permanent workable political states. In other words, Islam is a prime example of a barracks religion suitable to be imposed upon weaker populations who are to be conquered by Muslim aggressors. And this Islamic worldview does not seem to mesh well with the vision of the modern nation-state but is either tribal or, as was the case with the Ottomen, an empire-builder. It has none of the inherent egalitarianism of Christianity (something Judaism lacked historically as well). It is the nature of Islam to be repressive and aggressive toward other Muslim nations but especially toward infidel nations.

Islam is largely to blame for holding many of these cultures and nations in a backward state. But Islam didn't necessarily cause this repression. It merely cemented it into the social fabric. And the role of women in society is not necessarily the decisive factor in social progress and greater prosperity.

You know, in the end, the reason the EU doesn't want Turkey in the EU very much is because of the Islam factor. It's not the economy or the birthrate or the language. It's the fear of a huge Islamic population descending on Europe without restriction and with the legal rights of Europeans. But they'll let Turkey in eventually.
24 posted on 04/25/2003 7:12:16 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: a_Turk
There is a breeze forming . . .
25 posted on 04/25/2003 7:15:49 PM PDT by Scenic Sounds
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To: a_Turk
The dominant sex very early on was the female. Thus: mother earth..

There is no credible evidence for this, contrary to what the feminists and Leftist mystic New Age rant. Men always dominate their societies.
26 posted on 04/25/2003 7:16:24 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: a_Turk; sparky samson; goodnesswins

A refugee woman. After the Turks systematically killed the Christian men the women and children became easy targets

27 posted on 04/25/2003 7:19:21 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: Arioch7
I'll try to answer your questions as best I can. #2 will have some speculation..

on #1) The first Grand National Assembly of the Republic of Turkey was convened on April 23rd, 1920. Ataturk, the founding father of the Republic of Turkey dedicated this day to the children, as they are our future.

The ruling party has succeeded in pissing off the other branches of government as well as the military with, what turns out to my deep disappointment, their subtle baby steps to islamicize the republic through changes in education, the constitution, foreign policy, etc, etc, etc. Also, they keep parading their oppressed wives around in their turbans.. The other branches of government and the military have started to boycott them. The National Security Council meeting at the end of this month will probably serve the ruling party a discrete ultimatum..

On #2) To think that Turkey would send a measely 12 secial ops guys into Kirkuk with a measely trunkful of weaponry to start some shit s ludicrous. But there are Turkish special forces teams in that city, at the invitation of the US, to observe and verify that the US is keeping its promises regarding the status of the city, and the safety of the people there.

The city is a mess, with the three groups marking their abodes with colors, getting ready for who knows what. If I were a Turkish observer in Kirkuk, I'd want to be armed. Because the shit is going to hit the fan when the PUK and the KDP get brazen enough.. So in fact, a trunk full of weapons would help one defend oneself, should that day come.

As Saddam's army has deserted and their weapons are just strewn about the place being "collected" by the Kurdish troops, there's no need for Turkey to try to smuggle weapons into a place which is already full of them. If the Turkmen want weapons, and believe you me, they have them jsut like the Kurds do, all they have to do is pick them up!

If the story is true, and I am not sure it is since it was reported by Time and affiliates alone, then it is clearly a move by the US to disarm the Turkish observers in Kirkuk, probably in order to convince them to leave..
28 posted on 04/25/2003 7:25:33 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: a_Turk
Thanks - an excellent article. The headscarf *is* highly political; too bad more Americans don't realize that it's not just a "choice" issue.
30 posted on 04/25/2003 7:39:49 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: George W. Bush
>> Men always dominate their societies.

Now they do, but they did not years ago.. Where fertility was the subject of awe and men did not realize their part (other than fun), men were in awe of the female and her ability to give birth..

Anyway, I did not post a rant, you did.
31 posted on 04/25/2003 7:40:55 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: sparky samson
>> hasn't france opened the door already?

Don't think so.

Anyway, my ancestors didn't fight and die for our republic just so it can now be handed over to the EU. I'm opposed.
32 posted on 04/25/2003 7:46:34 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: goodnesswins
Or...women voters? (I didn't really say that, did I?.....I don't mean it....I just want thinking women to VOTE, not feeling women.)>

Just what part did I misrepresent or fail to read?

33 posted on 04/25/2003 8:01:44 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: eleni121; sparky samson; goodnesswins
Greece claims that between 1916-1923 the Greek Orthodox population then living in the eastern Black Sea region of Turkey became the victim of a systematic policy of extermination by the Turkish authorities of the day and that those who were able to escape did so by taking refuge in Greece. On 24 February 1994, the Greek Parliament adopted "19 May" as a "Day for Commemorating the Turkish genocide against the Pontus Greeks". But history and the facts are at odds with Greek claims and point unmistakably in another direction.

If you look, you'll find similar accounts from UK, US, German, etc. sources. Search for Turkey Greece population exchange.
34 posted on 04/25/2003 8:02:38 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: SeattleTiger
ROFLMAO! I read it a couple of times too!! Can't wait for the answer..
35 posted on 04/25/2003 8:04:24 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: valkyrieanne
It's hard to realize things that are so far removed from your own culture.

Many Arabs, for example, think that American and western women are whores.. Then when they get there, they treat these women according to their misperceptions.
36 posted on 04/25/2003 8:07:51 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: a_Turk; sparky samson; goodnesswins
Consul-General George Horton, American Legation, Athens, Greece,
My dear Mr. Horton:
How true Gladstone’s famous statement was in regard to the Turk’s character has been most amply proved in the late Smyrna disaster.
My position as a woman physician makes me peculiarly well placed to know about the treatment of young girls by the Turks. In my four-year experience in Turkey I think it is a rather remarkable fact that I have yet to see the Turkish girl or woman who has been ravished. As a marked contrast to this I have seen hundreds of Christian girls who have been in the hands of Turkish men.

The point of al this is that Turks possessed of their barbarous natures, are no friend of America's. Our President has wisely shoved them off to the wayside...

37 posted on 04/25/2003 8:11:34 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: a_Turk
Gladstone spoke of the Turks after one of their many pogroms against Christians in the Balkans:

"If it remains savage and barbarous, and behaves contemptuously and repulsively towards the public opinion of Europe, then it is unworthy of European protection and good-will."

His words are as right then as they are now. now.

38 posted on 04/25/2003 8:14:26 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: eleni121
Whatever.. You are a bore.
39 posted on 04/25/2003 8:21:50 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: a_Turk
And you are a deceitful propaganda monger.
41 posted on 04/25/2003 8:47:53 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: SeattleTiger
"I don't mean it"
42 posted on 04/25/2003 8:50:26 PM PDT by goodnesswins (THANK a service member for your FREEDOM, and thank a business owner for your job.)
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To: a_Turk
Funny that you posted this, I'm reading the Biography "Ataturk" right now and just finished the chapter on women's rights today. I think what's needed is for a reformation movement in Islam similar to (without the decades of war hopefully) the Protestant reformation in Europe. I still have hope for Turkey to lead the way in the Muslim world, but I don't see improvement until there are some changes with the religion.
43 posted on 04/25/2003 8:56:42 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: a_Turk
You, my friend, are a friend. I have seen your posts on multiple threads and they are reasonable, thoughtful, and...Turkish.

Let's take as a given that you represent Turkish and American common ground. Having said that, you have expressed exasperation with the U.S. on a few points. Explain, maybe?

44 posted on 04/25/2003 10:06:27 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: a_Turk
The question is...and remains...everyone *I* have met from Turkey says (s)he is in favor of a secular government that approaches the U.S. in freedom of speech, etc...yet, my best, closest Turk friend then recommended I read "Closing of the American Mind."

Why is that? It is a curious, and, heretofore, santimoniously 'We know better than you -- and we have had a few millenium to perfect our surveillance skills" conundrum.

45 posted on 04/25/2003 10:25:35 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: eleni121; a_Turk
Why is that? Turkey is a complex state, but this guy has only posted articles for us to review -- and then stayed around long enough to rebut various arguments. Can't find much to dispute in that....
46 posted on 04/25/2003 10:32:20 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: goodnesswins
Yep...what do you mean, though? This culture, despite ATurk's presence, does not think, in general, women think clearly enough to vote.

Do you think so? Come on... you're among friends...explain your self.

47 posted on 04/25/2003 10:40:34 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: MadIvan
Any...pithy...comments? I am as sad about the responses stateside as anything you might provide...
48 posted on 04/25/2003 10:45:51 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: Tailback
Does it not seem that abolishing the Caliphate from Turkey and translating the Koran into Turkish was and is tantamount to a protestant/reformist movement in Islam?

49 posted on 04/25/2003 11:41:44 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: SeattleTiger
What bothers me is the general nature of "lovem and leavem" foreign policy. There are no friends out there, just users. Agreements are meant to be broken, and promises are made to not be kept.

The whole bit about making Turkey look like an extortionist was a sham. Result? A big FU..
50 posted on 04/25/2003 11:44:58 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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