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Hidden Women.. [Turkish Editorial]
Hurriyet ^ | 4/25/2003 | Bekir COŞKUN

Posted on 04/25/2003 11:10:30 AM PDT by a_Turk

The fundamentalists have denied women.

Women have been assumed not to exist in law, social life, in business.

While counting two women's witness equal to one man's, they've made women second class.

They bought and sold her like a commodity.

There's not one woman in any assembly outside the closed family unit.

They wouldn't even let them enter places of worship.

And even when they finally had to leave this world they love, women do not take their place at the final ceremonies held in mosque courtyards..

*

From northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan, without exception, this is the reason for the lands of Islam being so poor, backward, and oppressed.

Any country where you ignore fifty percent of the population, any country where you reduce the workforce by fifty percent and force them to be consumers only..

Any country where you exclude those creative, loving, peaceful women from political office and force them to remain at home..

That country will be bankrupt..

Just like the muslim countries from northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan.

*

And Turkey?

Because it is home to women a bit more free, a bit more respected, a bit more vocal, Turkey is a bit less bankrupt in comparison.

That is why the headscarf discussion is important.

Outside of the shows by the speaker of Parliament, the ruling party wives are home, quiet, and almost non-existent.

That's what bothers me..

Hidden women whose silhouettes can occasionally be seen in the media, who are seated in the back rows at celebrations, who are horrified of the media, who don't know what to do, who are forbidden to speak..

Sure they deserve respect.

They are each mothers..

Home makers, who weep during hard times, who cannot show their happiness during good days, intimidated..

And to top it off, prisoners of an ideology which is criticized and blamed by at least seventy five percent of the population..

Women who can't just say: "If it's a problem, I'll remove my turban.."

That's what bothers me..

Women who exist, but almost don't.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: freedom; fundamentalism; headscarf; islam; islamists; turkey
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To: a_Turk
And you are a deceitful propaganda monger.
41 posted on 04/25/2003 8:47:53 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: SeattleTiger
"I don't mean it"
42 posted on 04/25/2003 8:50:26 PM PDT by goodnesswins (THANK a service member for your FREEDOM, and thank a business owner for your job.)
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To: a_Turk
Funny that you posted this, I'm reading the Biography "Ataturk" right now and just finished the chapter on women's rights today. I think what's needed is for a reformation movement in Islam similar to (without the decades of war hopefully) the Protestant reformation in Europe. I still have hope for Turkey to lead the way in the Muslim world, but I don't see improvement until there are some changes with the religion.
43 posted on 04/25/2003 8:56:42 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: a_Turk
You, my friend, are a friend. I have seen your posts on multiple threads and they are reasonable, thoughtful, and...Turkish.

Let's take as a given that you represent Turkish and American common ground. Having said that, you have expressed exasperation with the U.S. on a few points. Explain, maybe?

44 posted on 04/25/2003 10:06:27 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: a_Turk
The question is...and remains...everyone *I* have met from Turkey says (s)he is in favor of a secular government that approaches the U.S. in freedom of speech, etc...yet, my best, closest Turk friend then recommended I read "Closing of the American Mind."

Why is that? It is a curious, and, heretofore, santimoniously 'We know better than you -- and we have had a few millenium to perfect our surveillance skills" conundrum.

45 posted on 04/25/2003 10:25:35 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: eleni121; a_Turk
Why is that? Turkey is a complex state, but this guy has only posted articles for us to review -- and then stayed around long enough to rebut various arguments. Can't find much to dispute in that....
46 posted on 04/25/2003 10:32:20 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: goodnesswins
Yep...what do you mean, though? This culture, despite ATurk's presence, does not think, in general, women think clearly enough to vote.

Do you think so? Come on... you're among friends...explain your self.

47 posted on 04/25/2003 10:40:34 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: MadIvan
Any...pithy...comments? I am as sad about the responses stateside as anything you might provide...
48 posted on 04/25/2003 10:45:51 PM PDT by SeattleTiger
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To: Tailback
Does it not seem that abolishing the Caliphate from Turkey and translating the Koran into Turkish was and is tantamount to a protestant/reformist movement in Islam?

49 posted on 04/25/2003 11:41:44 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: SeattleTiger
What bothers me is the general nature of "lovem and leavem" foreign policy. There are no friends out there, just users. Agreements are meant to be broken, and promises are made to not be kept.

The whole bit about making Turkey look like an extortionist was a sham. Result? A big FU..
50 posted on 04/25/2003 11:44:58 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: SeattleTiger
I haven't read the "Closing of the American Mind."

I can tell you though, that we've founded 16 states of various size and duration throughout the past 2500 years. The Ottoman empire among them existed about 600 years.

I don't know what that book preaches..

Yet, I can see what the Chinese are doing with you, for example. These people spent 1700 years building a wall to manage us. That's their exhibited determination which lasted seven or eight times as long as the USA has existed.

We've learned the reasons for the advances and declines of the states we founded throughout history. When it's your states, it's personal.. You have not yet had the opportunity to learn any such personal thing..

Been there, done that 16 times. Maybe that's what you have sensed in your Turkish friend.
51 posted on 04/25/2003 11:52:03 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: a_Turk; SeattleTiger
I've read two copies of The Closing of the American Mind to pieces. It's a critique of the intellectual bankruptcy of the American University, the effect of that bankruptcy on students and the USA by extension, and how things got that way. Essentially, it compares and contrasts the Declaration of Independence and the American intellectual tradition with the European continental thinkers.

Good stuff. Your Turkish friend was absolutely right. It should be required reading by every literate human being with an IQ larger than his shoe size.

52 posted on 04/26/2003 12:04:59 AM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (More Power to the Troops! More Bang for the Buck!)
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To: eleni121
You cite Mr. Horton we cite Admiral Bristol. So what?
53 posted on 04/26/2003 3:17:58 AM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: SeattleTiger; a_Turk
May I give this a try?

I think goodnesswins means that thinking women should vote, i.e. women who think, and utilize logic and reason to make decisions, as opposed to feeling women, who encompass the entire spectrum of liberal, leftist womanhood and who are responsible for giving us eight years of Bill Clinton.

I just don't know how you would be able to tell the difference between the two types in time for the next election......

54 posted on 04/26/2003 3:51:04 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: a_Turk
Now they do, but they did not years ago.. Where fertility was the subject of awe and men did not realize their part (other than fun), men were in awe of the female and her ability to give birth.

Fertility cults are one thing, a general dominance of the female over the male are entirely different. I'm not talking about artistic fashions here or religions with a female deity and/or attendant priestesses. You said dominance of the female over the male and such a society has never existed. At least, not long enough to have any history. Of course, if the NOW hags get their way, we'll end up with one here in America.
55 posted on 04/26/2003 3:56:58 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: a_Turk
You can take a horse to water, but....

You can take a horticulture, but you can't make her like it! (a terrific pun, please don't take offense!)

56 posted on 04/26/2003 5:45:38 AM PDT by TomSmedley ((technical writer looking for work!))
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To: SeattleTiger
Here's some info:

The Last Words of Artin Pelik

Armenian Question

57 posted on 04/26/2003 5:55:27 AM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: a_Turk

ARMENIAN ALLEGATIONS and THE FACTS

ARTICLES

HAVE TURKS ALWAYS IMPOSED PRESSURE AND CRUELTY AGAINST ARMENIANS THROUGHOUT HISTORY?

The Armenian propaganda has been advocating that the Turks have always mistreated non-Muslims and Armenians throughout the history, in order to rest its allegation of "Genocide" on a historical basis. Because, they believe that they can not reply the question "how did Turks, having lived together with the Armenians for 600 years, decide to annihilate the Armenians in one day" if they do not have such an allegation. Another factor directing Armenians to hold this allegation firmly is to misrepresent the issue and transform it into a "Christian-Muslim struggle" and thus gain the support of the world of Christianity in advance.

The Armenian historians themselves write that the Armenians welcomed the entry of Turks in Anatolia in the air of festivity because of the Byzantine cruelty they had been subjected to. Because the Seljuks started to protect the Armenian church, which was attempted to be suppressed and demolished by the Byzantine, abolished the grave taxes imposed by the Byzantine on Armenian church, monasteries and clerical class and exempted them from tax, set the Armenian society free in religion, education and internal affairs, did not intervene with their internal affairs and never forced the Armenians to become Muslim. Armenian spiritual leader visited Sultan Melikşah against this attitude of the Seljuks and presented his gratitude. Briefly, the Armenians could preserve both their existence as a society and their religions and church during this period due to the Turks.

This phenomenon was also mentioned with pride by the Armenian historians themselves. Armenian historian Mateos of Urfa mentioned Seljuk Sultan Melikşah as follows in his chronicle no. 129:

"Melikşah's heart was full of tenderness and kindness towards Christians. He treated the children of Jesus very nice. He brought welfare, peace and happiness to the Armenian people."3

Mateos wrote the following after the death of Sultan Kılıç Aslan:

"Christians were much grieved upon the death of Kılıç Aslan. Because this Sultan had a lofty character and was a charitable person."
How good the Seljuk Turks treated the Armenians is evident in that some Armenians such as Taşirk family spontaneously accepted Islam and struggled against Byzantine together with Turks.

The good treatment of Turks towards non-Muslims finds its expression in the Islam-Turk philosophy. This philosophy can be summarized as follows:
When Turks included the territories of non-Muslim tribes into their countries, they made an agreement called zimma with the people of these regions. The rights of non-Muslim people were secured by means of this agreement and such people were called zımmî. Thus, people of other religions were treated with a tolerance that was not witnessed until then. The philosophies of "regarding 72 nations as one" and "come as you are" of great philosophers such as Yunus Emre and Mevl'na Celaleddin Rumî of that period should be evaluated within this framework. When the sect struggles among Christians and the cruelty applied by Byzantine on the Armenians are considered, it is evident how humanly an approach this is.
Upon the foundation and development of the Ottoman State and particularly the collapse of Byzantine as a result of the conquest of Istanbul, a new era that was experienced in no period of their history was opened for the Armenians and they were released from all religious, political, social, economic and cultural suppressions and a time of peace, confidence and welfare started.

As it is known, the Ottoman State was a Turkish-origined multinational state with an Islamic structure. There is place for other nations as well as Turks within this multinational structure. The first Ottoman Sultan Osman Bey allowed the Armenians to be organized as an individual society in Anatolia to be protected from Byzantine cruelty and the first Armenian religious center in Western Anatolia was founded in Kütahya. Upon the conquest of Bursa and making it the capital city, this religious center was transferred to Bursa from Kütahya and the Armenian religious leader Hovakim was brought to Istanbul in 1461 following the conquest of Istanbul by Fatih Sultan Mehmet and through the firman of Fatih, an Armenian patriarchy was founded in Istanbul.4 Consequently, Armenian immigration started from Caucasus, Eastern and Middle Anatolia, Balkans and Crimea to Istanbul and the Ottoman Empire became a center of attraction for Armenians. As it is seen, Armenian society and church developed in parallel with the development of the Ottoman State.

Ottoman Empire organized Gregorian Armenians under the name of a "nation" and left their rule to their own religious leaders. In his firman founding the Armenian Patriarchy, Fatih sultan Mehmet resolved that the Patriarch was both religious and material leader of all Armenians living within the empire.

While enjoying all rights granted to the Muslims, the Armenians also had some privileges, for example, they were not enlisted to the military. Not being enlisted provided continuity to the Armenian families, thus leading them to welfare.
Tribute and capitation taxes were imposed on Muslims and non-Muslims, but they were exempted from devotion and tithe taxes imposed on Muslims. Determining the manner of distribution of tribute and capitation taxes over the Armenian society was left to the religious leaders.
Ottoman administration assisted the Armenians when their financial power was insufficient to carry out their religious, cultural, educational and felicity affairs, met the deficits of the Patriarchy and provided financial assistance to Armenian institutions. This foundation system is today still preserved.

We also want to emphasize one point here: As Orthodox Greeks were organized before Armenians, all Christian subjects other than Orthodox Greeks were considered as Armenians. Christians that have no relation with Armenians, such as Pauliciens and Jacobites in Anatolia and Bogomils in the Balkans, were included in these subjects. This should be given consideration particularly in the disputes on the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire.

Armenian society rapidly developed and reached welfare through the utilization of the rights and privileges granted to them and moreover, adopting the Turkish-Ottoman culture, living style and administration, they soon deserved the confidence of the Ottomans and were entitled to receive the title "loyal nation". Ottoman Armenians came to important positions both in business life and in public services. 29 pashas, 22 ministers, 33 deputies, 7 Ambassadors, 11 Consul Generals and Consuls, 11 University instructors and 41 supreme officials of the Armenians are recorded in Ottoman history. Among Armenian Ministers, there were ones who were at extremely important and key positions such as Foreign, Finance, Trade and Postage Ministers.5

Armenians made important contributions to Ottoman-Turkish art, culture and music and brought up famous artists. These artists are today still referred to as sources of pride for Turkish Armenians and Turks.
It would be appropriate to indicate here that the first Armenian printing office in the world was established in Istanbul in 16th century.
Thus, Armenians lived in peace and confidence with all subjects of the Empire -primarily Turks- until late 19th century and they had no complaint or problem about Ottoman administration.

On the other hand, they has some internal disputes at times. The Armenians that came to Istanbul from Anatolia and Crimea before and immediately after the conquest of Istanbul, called "Local" Armenians and those that came from Iran and Caucasus called "Oriental" or "Country" Armenians launched a struggle because of the election of the Patriarch, complained of each other to the ottomans and tried to make the administration intervene in their favor respectively. Ottomans persistently remained unbiased against Armenian groups and internal problems. As this struggle was won by the "Oriental"s, non-clerical persons were also started to be assigned as the patriarch and position and title disputes were sometimes transformed into bloody conflicts. The Ottomans intervened at that stage and prevented the Armenians from killing each other.

Sect struggles was another factor making the Armenians fight fiercely. The spread of Catholicism and Protestantism among Armenians particularly as a result of foreign interventions caused great resentment among Gregorian Armenians and the Gregorian Armenians applied to the Ottoman administration for the prevention of this situation. When the Ottoman administration did not intervene this development that it considered to be an internal problem of the Armenians, bloody conflicts were seen again and the Armenians who accepted Protestantism were excommunicated by the Patriarchs called Çuhacıyan and Tahtacıyan.6 Later, conflicts arose between the Catholics as well, with respect to being dependent on Vatican or not, the Pope excommunicated those Armenians who were not dependent on Vatican and the Ottoman administration intervened the situation and made peace between these two Catholic groups in 1888.

This vast tolerance shown by the Ottomans towards non-Muslims made the Empire a country to take shelter for all people escaping from religious cruelty until the years of collapse. Christians of one sect subjected to the cruelty of Christians of another sect and the Jews subjected to serious tortures by the Catholics found salvation in taking refuge with the Ottomans. The most evident example for that is the immigration of Jews to the Ottoman Empire both after the reoccupation of Spain by the Catholics in late 15th century and during the following centuries while escaping from the Christian suppression in France, Middle Europe and Russia.

Whereas the truth is as above, one should either lack logic, conscience, comprehension, fairness and historical knowledge or be prejudiced to allege that Turks mistreated non-Muslims and Armenians, suppressed and subdued them, because there is no other way of explanation. It is approved in the works of many foreign historians and authors that history contradicts this allegation.

Many historians and authors extending from Asoghik and Mateos to Voltaire, lamartine, Claide Farrere, Pierre Loti, Nogueres, Ilone Caetani, Phillip Marshall Brown, Mitchelet, Sir Charles Wilson, Politis, Arnold, Bronsart, Roux, Grousset, Edgar Granville, garnier, Tuynbee, Lewis, Price, Bombaci and Shaw, some of which can not be qualified as friends of Turks at all, acknowledged the righteousness of Turks on this matter.
We would like to close this issue by referring to some of these and seeing what they had said.

Voltaire:

"Great Turks rule 20 nations of various religions in peace. They taught Christians to be moderate in war and tender in victory."
Phillip Marshall Brown:

"In spite of the great victory that they gained, Turks generously granted to the people of the places they conquest the right to self-rule with their own laws and traditions."

Politis, Foreign Minister of Venizelos Government:

"The interests of Greeks in Turkey could not have been so much protected by any power other than Turks."

J.W. Arnold:

"It is a fact that can not be denied by the history that Turkish armies did not intervene with the religion and culture at the places they conquest."

German General Bronsart:

"Turks are the most tolerant people of the world towards people of other religions unless they are disturbed."
Finally, we would like to give the following example: Napoleon Bonaparte considers to make the Catholic Armenians in Ottoman Empire rebel against the administration and take some kind of revenge upon Akka defeat. He asks whether this would be possible to his Ambassador in Istanbul. The reply of the Ambassador is clear and definite:

"Armenians are so pleased with their lives that this is impossible."

Footnotes:

(3) MATEOS OF URFA (Mathieu d'Edesse); Chronicles, No. 129.
(4) URAS, Esat; Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, 2nd Edition, Istanbul, 1976, p. 149.
(5) Türk Ermenilerinden Gerçekler, Jamanak Publication, Istanbul, 1980, p. 4 and KOÇAŞ, Sadi; Tarih Boyunca Ermeniler ve Türk-Ermeni İlişkileri, Ankara, 1967, pp. 92-I 15.
(6) SCHEMSI, Kara; Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire, Genere, Imprimeric Nationale, 1919, p. 19.

58 posted on 04/26/2003 6:01:59 AM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: Turk2
Unexpected at least to ME. I wouldn't expect an article like this from ANYPLACE in that part of the world, or where Islam is the primary religion.
59 posted on 04/26/2003 6:08:52 AM PDT by DED (Liberals Never Learn. *LNL*)
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To: a_Turk
Any country where you exclude those creative, loving, peaceful women from political office and force them to remain at home...sure the likes of pelosi, clinton, boxer, feinstein, murray, and waters have done so much to improve everything.

That country will be bankrupt...soon enough from the lunatics of the coasts.

60 posted on 04/26/2003 6:13:54 AM PDT by RWG
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