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Hidden Women.. [Turkish Editorial]
Hurriyet ^ | 4/25/2003 | Bekir COŞKUN

Posted on 04/25/2003 11:10:30 AM PDT by a_Turk

The fundamentalists have denied women.

Women have been assumed not to exist in law, social life, in business.

While counting two women's witness equal to one man's, they've made women second class.

They bought and sold her like a commodity.

There's not one woman in any assembly outside the closed family unit.

They wouldn't even let them enter places of worship.

And even when they finally had to leave this world they love, women do not take their place at the final ceremonies held in mosque courtyards..

*

From northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan, without exception, this is the reason for the lands of Islam being so poor, backward, and oppressed.

Any country where you ignore fifty percent of the population, any country where you reduce the workforce by fifty percent and force them to be consumers only..

Any country where you exclude those creative, loving, peaceful women from political office and force them to remain at home..

That country will be bankrupt..

Just like the muslim countries from northern Africa to Afghanistan, from the Sudan to Azerbaidjan.

*

And Turkey?

Because it is home to women a bit more free, a bit more respected, a bit more vocal, Turkey is a bit less bankrupt in comparison.

That is why the headscarf discussion is important.

Outside of the shows by the speaker of Parliament, the ruling party wives are home, quiet, and almost non-existent.

That's what bothers me..

Hidden women whose silhouettes can occasionally be seen in the media, who are seated in the back rows at celebrations, who are horrified of the media, who don't know what to do, who are forbidden to speak..

Sure they deserve respect.

They are each mothers..

Home makers, who weep during hard times, who cannot show their happiness during good days, intimidated..

And to top it off, prisoners of an ideology which is criticized and blamed by at least seventy five percent of the population..

Women who can't just say: "If it's a problem, I'll remove my turban.."

That's what bothers me..

Women who exist, but almost don't.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: freedom; fundamentalism; headscarf; islam; islamists; turkey
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To: George W. Bush
You may want to re-read the post a little bit more slowly.
81 posted on 04/26/2003 5:12:18 PM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (More Power to the Troops! More Bang for the Buck!)
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To: George W. Bush; All
How many unarmed people can you kill with one pistol or rifle? Your unarmed and innocent Armenians:

Second Company of the Armenian Voluntary Hinchak Regiment "Yerissart Hayastan" (Young Armenia) 20th July 1915.

Men and the Commanders of the first peloton of the 8th Company of the Armenian Hinchak Regiment and the staff of the Red Cross Society.

A few of the Arms seized in the Central Sandjak of Sivas, also gendarmary uniforms, made specially by Armenians, together with military trumpets and bombs.

Arms taken from the Armenians of Amasya.

Prohibited arms confiscated from the Armenians at the Sandjak of Marash.

82 posted on 04/26/2003 5:13:50 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: Turk2
That straw man won't even stand up so you can knock it down.

None of those documents were ever used by the Turkish court who condemned the Turkish leaders to death for the Armenian genocide. Try again.
83 posted on 04/26/2003 5:15:56 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush; All

Front page of the Armenian "Hunchak" Newspaper, published in summer 1914, Paris. This newspaper reveals the Hunchak appeal to take up arms against the Ottoman Empire

84 posted on 04/26/2003 5:24:17 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: George W. Bush; Turk2; DED; a_Turk; Mortimer Snavely; eleni121; Mihalis
Turks like to cite anti semitic socialists like Toynbee and other Turkish govt. apparatchiks to back up their ridiculous claims that no genocide occured. In fact Muslim Turk genocides against Christians have occured over and over again.

Turkish genocides

An excerpt from the above Netanyahu link:

Arnold Toynbee, a historian highly placed in the British academic-diplomatic establishment (Studies Director at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, etc.), described Jews and other minorities as "fossils of ancient faiths" that should have vanished long ago.

85 posted on 04/26/2003 5:26:19 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: George W. Bush; All

The New York Times'(May 19 1985) pertinent page on the research made by a commission of American scientists.

86 posted on 04/26/2003 5:27:19 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: eleni121; All
It is Armenians which cite Arnold Toynbee because of the Blue Book, a load of crap used as written proof for a genocide, he edited and published for British Intelligence.

You are wrong again.

87 posted on 04/26/2003 5:31:23 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: George W. Bush; All
DID TALAT PASHA SEND SECRET TELEGRAMMES ORDERING GENOCIDE?

Armenian propaganda claiming that so-called genocide was an Ottoman government policy requires proof that such a decision was in fact made. For this purpose the Armenians produced a number of telegrams attributed to Talat Pasha supposedly found by British forces commanded by General Allenby when they seized Aleppo in 1918. It was claimed that they were found in the office of an Ottoman official named Naim Bey, and that they could be destroyed only because the British occupation came with unexpected speed. Samples of these telegrams were published in Paris in 1920 by an Armenian author named Aram Andonian, (38) and they also were presented at the Berlin trial of the Armenian terrorist Tehlirian, who killed Talat Pasha. Nevertheless, the court neither considered these documents as "evidence" nor was involved in any decision claiming the authenticity of them. These documents were, however, entirely fabricated, and the claims deriving from them therefore cannot be sustained. They were in fact published by the Daily Telegraph of London in 1922, (39) which also attributed them to a discovery made by Allenby's army. But when the British Foreign Office enquired about them at the War Office, and with Allenby himself, it was discovered that they had not been discovered by the British army but, rather, had been produced by an Armenian group in Paris. In addition, examination of the photographs provided in the Andonian volume shows clearly that neither in form, script or phraseology did they resemble normal Ottoman administrative documents, and that they were, therefore, rather crude forgeries.

Following the Entente occupation of Istanbul, the British and the French arrested a number of Ottoman political and military figures and some intellectuals on charges of war crimes. In this they were given substantial assistance by the Ottoman Liberal Union Party, which had been placed in power by the Sultan after the war, and which was anxious to do anything it could to definitively destroy the Union and Progress Party and its leaders, who had long been political enemies. Most of the prisoners were sent off to imprisonment in Malta, but the four Union and Progress leaders who had fled from the country just before the occupation were tried and sentenced to death in absentia in Istanbul. Three other Government officials were sentenced to death and executed, but it was discovered later that the evidence on which the convictions had been based was false.

In the meantime, the British looked everywhere to find evidence against those who had been sent to Malta. Despite the complete cooperation of some enthusiastic supporters such as the Ottoman Liberal Union (38) ANDONIAN, Aram, Documents Qfficiels concernant les Massacres Armmiens, Paris, Armenian National Delegation, 1920. (39) Daily Telegraph, 29 May 1922. government, nothing incriminating could be found among the Ottoman government documents. Similar searches in the British archives were fruitless. Finally, in desperation, the British Foreign Office turned to the American archives in Washington, but in reply, one of their representatives, R. C. Craigie, wrote to Lord Curzon:

"I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are at present being detained at Malta ...no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.... The reports in question do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in the possession of His Majesty's Government.''(40)

Uncertain as to what should be done with prisoners, who already had been held for two years, without trial and without even any charges being filed or evidence produced, the Foreign Office applied for advice to the Law Officers of the Crown in London, who concluded on 29 July, 1921:

"Up to the present no statements have been taken from witnesses who can depose to the truth of the charges made against the prisoners. It is indeed uncertain whether any witnesses can be found." (41)

At this time the "documents" produced by Andonian were available, but despite their desperate search for evidence, which could be presented in a court of law, the British, never used them because it was evident that they were forgeries. As a result, the prisoners were quietly released in 1921, without charges ever having been filed or evidence produced.

It is useful to reiterate that the main elements in the chain of evidence constructed in proving that Andonian's "documents" were all patent forgeries:

1. To show that his forgeries were in fact "authentic Ottoman documents" Andonian relied on the signature of the Governor of Aleppo, Mustafa Abdiilhalik Bey, which he claimed was appended to several of the "documents" in question. By examining several actual specimens of Mustafa Abdülhalik Bey's signature as preserved on contemporary official documents, it is established that the alleged signatures appended to Andonian's "documents" were forgeries.

2. In one of his forged documents, Andonian dated the note and signature attributed to Mustafa Abdülhalik Bey. Again, by a comparison with authentic correspondence between the Governor (40) 13 July 1921; British Foreign Office Archives 371/6504/8519 (41) British Foreign Office Archives 371/6504/E8745

Aleppo and the Ministry of the Interior in Istanbul, on the date in question, it is proven that the Governor of Aleppo on that date was Bekir Sami Bey, not Mustafa Abdulhalik Bey.

3. Consistently, Andonian's forgeries attest to the fact that he was either totally unaware of, or carelessly neglected to account for, the differences between the Muslim Rumi and Christian calendars. The numerous errors he made as a result of this oversight are, in and of themselves, sufficient to prove the fabricated nature of his "documents". Among other things, the errors Andonian made in this respect served to destroy the system of reference numbers and dates that he concocted for his "documents".

4. By way of a detailed comparison of the entries made in the Ministry of the Interior's Registers of outgoing Ciphers, wherein are recorded the date and reference number of every ciphered communication sent out by the Ministry, with the dates and reference numbers placed by Andonian on his forgeries, it is proven that his so-called "ciphered, telegrams" bear no relationship whatsoever to the actual ciphers sent by the Ministry to Aleppo in the period in question.

5. Again, by comparing the Turkish "originals" of Andonian's " ciphered telegrams" with actual examples of contemporary Ottoman ciphered messages, it is shown that the number groupings he employed bear no relationship to the actual ciphers the Ottomans were using in that period. Thus, in his attempt to make his forgeries appear credible, he created a whole series of unusable, non-existent ciphers. Further, from the dates he affixed to his forgeries in this category, the Ottomans would have had to use the same ciphers over a six-month period which was impossible. By publishing a series of documents instructing officials to change the ciphers they were using, it is shown that, in fact, the Ottomans were changing their cipher codes on average once every two months during the war years.

6. By comparing the manner in which the common Islamic injunction, Besmele, was written on Andonian's two forged letters with numerous examples of the way in which it appears on authentic contemporary Ottoman documents, it is suggested that Andonian's clumsy forgery of this term may well have stemmed from the fact that non-Muslims, even those who knew Ottoman Turkish, did not employ this injunction.

7. A number of examples from Andonian's forgeries show that it is simply inconceivable that any Ottoman official could have used such sentence structures and make such grammatical errors. In the same vein, a host of expressions; allegedly uttered by prominent Ottoman officials are used, which no Ottoman Turk would ever have used. Andonian's intention in these instances was clear: he wanted nothing less than the Turks themselves to be seeming to confess to crimes which he had manufactured for them.

8. The forged documents, with two exceptions, were written on plain paper with none of the usual signs found on the official paper used by the Ottoman bureaucracy in this period. The fact that one of the forged Turkish originals was written on a double-lined paper, which the Ottomans did not even use for private correspondence, constitutes an even more serious error on Andonian's part. Even the two forgeries which appear at first glance to have been written on some kind of official Ottoman stationery are actually written on blank telegraph forms, which anyone wishing to send a telegram could pick up in any Ottoman post office.

9. At a time when the British were frantically searching the world's archives for anything to be used as "evidence" against the group of Ottoman officials whom they were holding for trial as being "responsible for the Armenian incidents", their failure to utilize Andonian's "documents" which were readily available in their English edition, strongly suggests that the British Government was fully aware of the nature of these forgeries.

10. Had documents of the nature of those concocted by Andonian ever actually existed, their confidential nature would have dictated that they be sent by courier for security reasons; rather than through the easily breachable public telegraph system. Likewise, had such documents really ever been written; it is inconceivable that they could have lain around in a file for three years, instead of being destroyed as soon as they had been read.

11. There are also numerous differences between the French and English editions of Andonian's book. Indeed, these variations are of such significance that it is absolutely impossible to ascribe them to printing errors, or errors in translation.

12. Finally, the fact that even some authors with close links to Armenian circles, who serve as spokesmen for Armenian causes, have indicated their own doubt as to the veracity of Andonian's "documents" should not be overlooked. In short, from start to finish the so-called "Talat Pasha Telegrams" are nothing more than crude forgeries, concocted by Andonian and his associates. Moreover the Ottoman archives contain a number of orders; whose authenticity can definitely be substantiated, issued on the same dates, in which Talat Pasha ordered investigations to be made to find and punish those responsible for the attacks which were being made on the deportation caravans. It is hardly likely that he would have been ordering massacres on one hand and investigations and punishments for such crimes on the other.

A letter forged by Aram Andonian with the date, February 18, 1331 (March 2,1916) opens with a "bismillah" (blessing), which would never have been written by a Moslem. The forger, Andonian, made his most fatal mistake with the date, however. He was obviously not well enough versed in the tricks of converting to the Rumi year of the Ottomans, where a difference of thirteen days between the Rumi and Gregorian calendars must be taken into account.

The date he put on the letter was off by a full year. Instead of 1330 (1915), he wrote 1331 (1916). The contents of the letter are supposed to be evidence of the long advance planning of the resettlement operation of 1915.(42) (42) Feigl, Erich. A Myth of Terror, 1991, Edition zeitgeschichten-Freilassing- Salzburg, p. 85

An American aid organization called "the Near East Relief Society" was allowed by the Ottoman Government to stay and fulfill its functions in Anatolia during the deportations. Even following the entry of U.S.A. into war on the side of Entente powers against Ottoman Empire, the same organization was permitted to remain in Anatolia. This was dealt in the reports of the American Ambassador Elkus in Istanbul. In this case, if an order for "massacring Armenians" had been given, would the Ottoman Government have allowed to an American organization to be witness to the "massacres". In other words, it is ridiculous to suppose that the Ottomans said to America: "We are massacring Armenians. Why don't you have a look at it." Such an allegation could never be a logical explanation of historic facts. Finally, and in the end most important, when the war came to an end, the Armenian population still was substantially in place in Western Anatolia, Thrace and Istanbul. Had the Ottoman government ordered massacres, evidently they too would have been killed. And for that matter, had the Ottoman government wanted to eliminate all the Armenians in the Empire, it could have done so far more easily by killing and disposing of them where they lived, rather than undertaking a large-scale deportation of those in the Eastern war zones under the eyes of foreign observers.

The claim, thus, that the Ottoman government ordered and carried out a general massacre of Armenians in the Empire cannot be sustained and is disproved by the facts.

88 posted on 04/26/2003 5:52:34 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: George W. Bush; All

How Do Armenian Clergymen Assess The Allegations Of Genocide?

Dikran Kevorkian, Pastor of Kandilli Armenian Church, who took part in 7th October 2000 in the TV programme named "in a nutshell" said the following:

The genocide and relocation denote two different concepts. The imperialist schemes and the Armenian apolitical dream leaders (media, churches and clergy) are the causes of this situation. The Patriarch is a spiritual leader and a blunder is committed when his opinions are sought in the political matters. What could ASALA and PKK do if there were no political support behind them?

There was a German pressure on the Sublime Port for the relocation in an attempt to shake the existing order and to secure itself an economic benefit through the Berlin-Baghdad railroad.

With regard to assimilation, I am prepared to say this: Today, it is only in Turkey among all countries of the world that the Armenians manage to maintain their own identity. The Armenians in the diaspora abroad continue their struggle for existence by changing their names because there are efforts there to melt the Armenians in the cultural pot.

The diaspora knows very well that the Sunday rites in all major American churches are in English and the Armenians are gradually losing their own language. Those who declare these things are branded to be black sheep of the herd. It is for these reasons that we as the Armenians living in Turkey, declare our regrets against these efforts, because an injustice is committed to the spirit of national forces entrusted to us by Ataturk. All this is a stratagem concocted abroad, including the ASALA, PKK and Kocharian's declaration. We, as the citizens of Turkey, believe that an injustice is perpetrated here. The Armenians should know better than being scapegoats if they are intelligent enough.

MESROB II,
(THE ARMENIAN PATRIARCH)

Mesrob II, the Armenian Patriarch, gave the following reply during a round-table meeting at the Turkish CNN TV in October 2000 to he question of a spectator named Henika Kiremitci who asked him how they as the uneasy Armenian minority should act:

MESROB II - I too, feel a certain uneasiness when I feel the pulses of our Istanbul congregation members; yet I wish to say to all members of my church as well as to all the Armenians living in Turkey that there is no reason for you to be uneasy. Please have confidence in the common sense of all our citizens living here and particularly of our State and don't feel yourselves embittered since you don't even have the least involvement with these schemes and actions.

MESROB II,
THE ARMENIAN PATRIARCH

Patriarch Mesrob II chairing the ceremonies at the Surp Krikor Losavoric Church in Kinaliada in the morning of 22 August delivered the following sermon in the Surp Badarak rites presented by Hayr Sahak Apega:

FIRST PART OF THE SERMON

There was a holy pool named Siloam at Yerusagem. At the time of Rab Hisus, the citizens used to say that the water in the pool suddenly churned from time to time and believed that the sick people who threw themselves into the pool when the water churned would be healed. Hundreds of sick people used to keep guard by the poolside and chant prayers. One day 18 people horribly died there when one of the poolside pillars collapsed. This incident is confirmed in the thirteenth chapter of Lucas Bible.

Reminding this incident to his disciples, he asked them whether these 18 people were more sinful than the other congregation members and, failing to receive any replies, said this: "No, because people may die for many other reasons than their own faults or sins. But the important thing here is this: everyone should be ready for the critical moment between life and death for acts of God or other causes and should avoid being caught unaware by the death. The greatest disaster that we may encounter is to lose God's realm. If we want God's affection and paternity, we should repent and approach Him. This constitutes the focal point of the sermons of Baptist Yahya (Surp Hovannes Migirdic) and Rab Hisus in the Bible: Repent, because God's realm is near.

We are under the influence of the horrible earthquake of which the Centre was Izmit. Pains suffered by the death of more than twenty thousand people aside from the material and spiritual values are not easy to bear. The imminence of the earthquake was known. But this is in the human nature; we do not want to understand how late we were in adopting appropriate measures until that moment comes. I am wondering if the consciences of these thieve contractors are now bothering them. And the administrators acting as if they are in a slow-motion movie? On the other hand, is it possible not to feel grateful to the Greek citizens who sent their blood together with monetary help or the Israeli Government who set prize to its people and citizen even in an other country?

Humanity precedes piousness. Surp Agop says that those who do not love others may not love God, an invisible spirit. Those that consider religious, lingual and racial differences are lowly miserable. Like Rab Hisus taught in the example of Good Samaritan, all peoples are the children of the good father in the sky and brothers of each other even if they belong to different religions and ethnical groups. The people should be able to display the virtue of philanthropic spirit of help. The people who died in the Marmara earthquake, the suffering survivors without homes are all our brothers in the God. All believers should give the help they are capable to. It is indeed a sin to remain aloof to such grieves and pain.

When the autumn rains begin, myriad of people who live in the open will be getting ill. When we live in the warmth of our homes and partake our three daily meals, we should also think of disaster-stricken brothers and set aside a little from what God gave us. This is our first duty.

Our second duty is to repair within shortest possible time the damages in our community schools, churches and Patriarchate building and reinforce them against a probable new earthquake.

Doing all this, however, we should not overlook one point: This earthquake should be an opportunity for us to question ourselves, to renew our repentance and to socially, administratively and spiritually renew our deeds.

SECOND PART OF THE SERMON

In the second part of my sermon, I want to mention an important issue when the new school year approaches since our spiritual and cultural life sustains a major erosion. This is due to snobbism and desire to show off. It is not possible to conceive the reasons for disdaining the community's schools and for preference particularly by the nouveau riche group to send their children to prestige schools. These people spread unjust rumours on the quality of the community's schools to justify their action. Not less than eight of the graduates of our schools gained access to the Robert College with very high scores and the percentage of our senior high school graduates finding their way to universities is quite high. Our senior high schools rank hundred and fiftieth in the whole country.

Aren't these the indicators of the success rates of our schools? Parents who refuse paying two hundred millions to our schools and send their children to those charging two to three billion Liras make the greatest unfairness to their off-springs by denying them the richness of their own language, culture and spiritual wealth. I am certain that these children will blame their parents when they grow up. There are different makes of cars and many alternatives when you want one as good as or better than that of your neighbour. But our community schools have none. Our schools educate very conscientious Turkish citizens and acquaint them with the Armenian language and literature and the basic tenets of the Christian religion.

Don't our schools have problems? Of course they do. But so do the other schools. Therefore, we should take an active role in the school administrations, committees, and parent-teacher associations in order to remove the administrators who do not perform well and who do not renew themselves in a democratic way and replace them with better ones. This is possible only by the efficient and learned participation of our community. One of the direct consequences of the alienation from our schools is the deterioration of our family order. The rate of divorces, something unheard of until recently, rose rapidly in the last decade. Our people married without a holy bond and those who just simply cohabit reached almost sixty percent. We have many philanthropists among us who provide material support and seek an outlet from the blind alley into which our community entered. On the other hand, there are several who simply show off and remain aloof to these problems, but raise a lot of humdrum if they are not seated at the head tables or seen in the pictures taken.

Who, then, be involved in these problems if not the community leaders, intellectuals and Samaritans? I have only spiritual powers. The only thing that I may say as your Patriarch is that I will withdraw my benediction from every person and every family who remove their children from their community, religion and school. Pity to those devoid of the benefaction of the church and church fathers! Happy are those who are bonded by the affection ties and unison of this great family! Happy are those who are able to drink the eternity waters through our foreseeing merciful church built under the customs and traditions of our ancestors!

Briefly I want to say this: There are only a few weeks before the start of the new school year. Own up your schools, support them, keep your children in your own education institutions, encourage your beloved teachers, have faith in your church and schools and return your children to the community schools even if they are enrolled elsewhere for one or two years.

MESROB II,
THE ARMENIAN PATRIARCH

Now we will reprint here the interview given to Milliyet daily's reporter Yavuz Baydar by the Armenian Patriarch Mesrob II:

Question: There were no Armenian Patriarchs in Constantinapolis until its conquest by Mehmed II. Why?

Mesrob II:The history of Armenian community in Constantinapolis date back to the fourth century BC. We know that there was an Armenian church in the sixth century within the city walls. Later, since Byzantine was not tolerant to Christians other than the Orthodox denomination, the Armenians held their rites in buildings outside the walls. The spiritual leader of all Armenians in Thrace and in Europe until Lvov was in Bursa. For this reason, an Armenian Patriarch was not deemed necessary within Byzantine.

Question: What was the situation of the Armenian community in Anatolia until the conquest?

Mesrob II: The history of Christian Armenians in Anatolia dates back to the missionary work in eastern regions by two of the apostles of Jesus, Saint Thaeeus and Saint Bartholomeus. In 301 AD, the Armenian Kingdom accepted the Christianity as the official religion and the Echmiadzine Patriarchate, considered as the Archbishop for the Armenians was founded. We will celebrate in 2001 the 1700th anniversary of this event. Furthermore, the Armenians dissociating themselves of the Jerusalem Patriarchate established a separate Armenian one.

The Aktamar Patriarchate founded on the Isle of Aktamer in Van lake in 10th century was the third. The Clician one in Kozan was established in 1441. In all other regions, there were Armenian Bishopries or Archbishopries, called "marhasas" in Ottoman.

Question: Why did Fatih the Conqueror grant a Patriarchate edict to the Armenian community in Istanbul?

Mesrob II: After the conquest of Istanbul, Mehmet II brought large numbers of Armenians to the city in order to populate it. Following the recognition of Gennadios as the Greek Archbishop, the same treatment granted to Hovagim as the Archbishop of all Armenians may perhaps be deemed as urged by the wish to establish a balance between Christian inhabitants.

We should bear in mind the fact that there was a large mass of people who did not accept the Byzantine Orthodox doctrine within the Empire. Furthermore, the Archbishop would constitute an authority for facilitating the collection of taxes from the Armenians.

Question: We find the Armenians during the Ottoman reign as a merchant and artisan community who were not involved on a large scale in the existing problems. The Armenians began to get closer to the palace from the Mahmud II period onward. In the era following the Reformation, the Regulation on the Armenian Nation imparted a secular autonomy to the Armenian community that produced deputies and even viziers. At the same time, however, the dissolution trend in the Ottoman Empire was accelerating and some Armenian political parties were revolting against the central administration and the bitter events that were experienced culminated in 1915. What do you think of all these discussions that continue still?

Mesrob II: I don't think that the Armenians, at the time, were after independence. Most of the community were followers of the Patriarchate and the Ottoman Empire. Some were even disturbed by the plunder and political unrest in the Eastern part of the Empire, and were requesting the reestablishment of security. Only a minor part, the Tashnak followers, were after independence.

The rulers of that period did a major mistake by holding the entire minority responsible for the deeds of a just a few of them. To me, the problem was this: the collapse of the Ottoman Empire had started and numerous countries proclaimed their independence. And of course, some powers of the West, took part in this chaos. Due to reasons like this, the Turkish-Armenian relations were forced into an insecure atmosphere. Thus, the decree on relocation was declared, which led to events called as "the big disaster" in the history of the Armenians.

Nevertheless, it would be misleading to explain the entire history of the Turkish-Armenian relations, up to the establishment of the Turkish Republic, just based on this last period.

We have to study the history, from the beginning of the 5th century. We shall not disregard that the first Armenian publishing house was established in Istanbul and that the first Armenian book was printed there, as well as, that the first Armenian Theatre, which was also opened in this city. To me, the most important thing is that people from various communities, cultures and religions lived together under the same roof of an Empire, for more than 600 years. This is a fact to be celebrated.

Question: Was the transition to the Republic a pain for your Church?

Mesrob II : Of course, it was. The First World War was over and the relocation took place. Destruction effected the entire community. In the first five years of the Republic, the community did not have a Patriarchate. After Muslu I. Mesrob was elected as Patriarchate in 1927, a normalisation period started.

Question: What are the problems of your community and Church, today?

Mesrob II: We don't have problems, regarding religious matters. We can perform our religious duties at any place and time, as we like to do. The most important problem is lack of clergymen. A school of clergymen is a must, however, we desire to solve this problem together with YÖK, within the university system.

The community has social problems. The Declaration of 1936 forced some limitations on our community, which are in the present time totally obsolete and require reform. One should be allowed to donate to a church, as other are allowed to donate to mosques. All donations of properties to Foundations, after 1936, are to be returned to the owners since 1970. If the ex-owners have already died, the property was confiscated. I wish this act would be annulled soon.

Question: What is your perspective of the Turkish nation, in the eve of 2000 ?

Mesrub II: Though the atmosphere in Turkey, of which we are celebrating the 75th anniversary, seems somehow tight and thick, I do not think that the situation is that bad. I bear hope for the future. I feel positive, both for the regional situation of our country and its steps into the future. I think that we can overcome most of the problems by revising the system.

Question: What is your opinion, concerning the discussion on secularism ?

Mesrub II: Our community shares this principle. The document of 1863 verifies our attitude. We still share this attitude. I, as the Patriarch of the Turkish Armenians, do not have the least interest to be a judge of a religious court solving claims of marriage, divorce, and the right of property.

As a citizen born in the era of the Republic, I think that there is no way to turn to the past. To me, in the eve of 2000, any attempt to of ruling daily live with religious rules, which means a return to the middle ages, is ridiculous.

Question: The Year 2000 Celebrations are attracting the entire humanity, nevertheless, they have a special meaning for the Christians. How will you contribute to the "Millennium" Celebrations in Turkey ? Are these celebrations a big opportunity for Turkey ? Do you think that Turkey is giving the deserved attention to this subject ?

Mesrob II: It is very important for us, however, I do not know what importance is given by the government authorities. Look, there are 3 major Anatolian Churches in Turkey: The Armenian, the Greek and the Syriac. As far as I know, the government did not get in touch with any of these churches, regarding the 2000 Celebrations. We are ready for any contributions, but if it is left to the very last moment, I am afraid that we might encounter some undesired obstacles. I have always said:

If Palestine and Vatican are countries of prior importance for Christianity, Anatolia, in other words Turkey, is of secondary importance. The tombs of half of the Apostles are in Anatolia! In 2000, a flood of tourists will visit Israel. How many will visit Turkey? If we are looking for a solution to our tourism crisis, we should also consider this issue. The cultural, folkloric and religious tissue of Turkey should be demonstrated in full range. I think that this is not done. We should exploit this great opportunity.


MESROB II,
THE ARMENIAN PATRIARCH

Mesrob II, the Armenian Patriarch, in his speech held on a reception on 22 Mai 1999, at the Hilton Hotel:

"We are on the eve of the 3rd Millennium. We are preparing to celebrate the beginning of a new era in the history of mankind. I think that this is a great opportunity for all of us. An opportunity that could enable us to realise our dream of unifying continents, cultures and nations.

A world where individual rights and freedom is respected, a world of justice far away from any and all kind of violence is our mutual desire.

The crossroad ahead does not only offer a great opportunity but also a very difficult exam. The 2nd millennium that we are going to leave behind us, is full of tragedies.

But still, there are also incidents that we will remember will with respect in the following millenniums.

Just the one that we are celebrating today…

The establishment of the Istanbul Armenian Patriarch, is a unique incident in the history.

Eight years after the conquest of Constantinapolis by Fatih Sultan Mehmet, in 1461, he transformed the West Anatolian Archbishopship into the Patriarchship of Istanbul, by a decree. This was a clear evidence of the toleration of Fatih and the successor Ottoman Sultan, towards different religions.

Neither before nor after Mehmed the Conqueror, the world history does not have a second example of a Ruler who granted a religious rank to the believers of another religions.

In the eve of a new millennium, considering the conflicts in the world and our vicinity, we should give this incident, that took place 538 years ago deserved respect as an example of toleration between religions and cultures.

We remember with respect, both Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror who arranged the daily live of the Armenians in the empire, in accordance with their beliefs and traditions, as well as our prior 83 Patriarchs, who served at this post with loyalty, starting with Hovagim of Bursa the Istanbul Armenian Patriarch, who was appointed in 1461.

We the Armenians in Turkey, as the major group of Christians in our country, are celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Turkish Republic with happiness and are hopeful for the future.

89 posted on 04/26/2003 6:04:26 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: Mortimer Snavely; eleni121; Old_Professor
You may want to re-read the post a little bit more slowly.

No, I think it is you who should. The professor was saying:

   600,000 dead Armenians
2,500,000 dead Muslims, the majority of which (maybe) were Turkish

You seem to be claiming that the Armenians were the ones killing the Turks and the Russians apparently did nothing. The 600K Armenians killed were, I suppose, killed by Turks in self-defense or some other such nonsense. I suppose they were racing through the registrars and burning deeds; that seems to be the currently popular accusation.

I think this research summary is flawed if not fraud. It doesn't identify in even a general and consistent way how many Turks died and what other Muslim minorities died and who killed the other Muslim minorities in the area. Oh, well, no doubt more wanton killing by the Armenians while the Russians tried to hold them back or something.

The whole analysis is flawed and hardly can be called a scholarly presentation: "Even in just this area (Armenia), you had more than a million dead Muslims - Turks - well some were other peoples, but the majority were Turks, which meant that in this area called Armenia there were hundreds of thousands more dead Muslims than there were Armenians."

So the professor starts with a million but has to talk himself down to hundreds of thousands in the same paragraph. So now we are left with "hundreds of thousands" of Turks dead and 600,000 Armenians dead in the midst of a big Russian invasion of the area. And you're trying to somehow claim that the peace-loving humanitarian Russian army didn't kill any Muslims or Turks but they were all murdered by the Armenians? Is that it?

You must know that this argument is absolutely preposterous.

The Turks were largely killed by Russian invaders. The breakaway Armenians were massacred because they wanted independence from their Muslim masters. Christian Russia was a natural ally of Christian Armenia in any event and Russia was hungry, as always, for any pretext for an invasion, especially one that would give them the warm water ports they always desired. This kind of reminds me of Turkey invading Cyprus in the Seventies.

Naturally, your use of anti-Armenian material from ATAA, the Turkish lobby, is a little less than neutral, I would say. In general, the general sloppiness of presentation, the carelessness with spelling and grammar do not speak particularly well of the scholarship of the author or the website designer. I note also that the body of material is obviously dated and is slanted with reference to the communist threat of the Soviet Union as directed toward its southern flank. The articles speak of the Soviet Union as an existing government. One might ask where Professor McCarthy received the funding for his "research". Maybe from the Assembly of Turkish American Associations or one of its subsidiary organizations perhaps?

I note that the professor's work is indexed by Google only at Turkish embassies and lobbying organizations around the world. And that he is elsewhere labelled a holocaust denier. As of 2002, he was still offering advice to Turkey on how to deny the holocaust. Apparently, he has devoted a substantial portion of his career, decades it would seem, to serving the Turkish cause.

More to come...
90 posted on 04/26/2003 6:08:19 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Turk2
Now you're quoting Armenian clergymen obsessed with cultural and linguistic identity as your source?

How about these two independent scholars who would appear to have no great ax to grind:

 

"The Turkish denial [of the Armenian Genocide] is probably the foremost example of historical perversion. With a mix of academic sophistication and diplomatic thuggery -- of which we at Macquarie University have been targets -- the Turks have put both memory and history into reverse gear."

-- Prof. Colin Tatz, Director,
Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies
(Centre for Genocide Studies Newsletter,
(December 1995-January 1996))

 

"The nearest successful example [of collective denial] in the modern era is the 80 years of official denial by successive Turkish governments of the 1915-17 genocide against the Armenians in which 1.5 million people lost their lives. This denial has been sustained by deliberate propaganda, lying and coverups, forging documents, suppression of archives, and bribing scholars."

-- Stanley Cohen, Professor of Criminology,
Hebrew University, Jerusalem
(Law and Social Inquiry vol. 20, no. 1 (Winter 1995): 7, 50)

91 posted on 04/26/2003 6:19:57 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush; All
ARMENIAN ATROCITIES AGAINST THEIR OWN NATIONALS

Armenian committeemen not only conducted massacres on Turks, but also made various oppressions on the Armenians whom they suspected were on the side of the Turks.   

After the Kumkapi demonstration, which took place in July 1890, the Hinchak Committee, started arranging assassinations to the suspected Armenians presumed to be the supporters of the government.

Advocate Hachik was killed by a 15-year-old Armenian named Armenak.

Dacad Varabet, the preacher of Gedikpasa Church was cut into pieces.

Mampre Karabet, who was elected to the Spiritual Assembly, was wounded assassination and because of spying for the government.

It was suspected that Patriarch Ashikyangave the plans of the committee to the government, and due to this reason an assassination was arranged by an Armenian named Diyarbakirli Agop / Agop From Diyarbakir, elected by drawing lots by the committee in the patriarch ate church on March 24, 1804. Since the Karadag branded pistol the assassin used was defective, the young man was arrested.

The Hinchak Committee carried out an assassination on March 10, 1894 to Simon Maksut, when they considered being the friend of Ashikyan, through two committeemen, in front of the Havyar Han in Galata.

The French Ambassador Monsieur Cambon gave the following information to the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs on March 27, 1894 about these assassinations:

“From Cambon to Casimir Perier,

Beyoglu: March 27, 1894

Last Sunday, while Patriarch Ashikyan was leaving the Kumkapi Church after the ritual service in order to go back to the patriarchate, an eighteen-year-old Armenian youngster aimed on him by his pistol and fired a few shots. Since the weapon was defective, no bullet hit the patriarch. The patriarch was fainted and he was treated in his home. The young Armenian was taken to the police station, and when he was interrogated on the reason of the murdering, he told that Ashikyan is the enemy of Armenians, and that he frequently informed the government, therefore, the Armenians had sworn to get rid of this man to save the nation. He also emphasised that he and his colleagues from the same sect were faithful to the Sultan.

Cambon. “     

Monsieur Cambon states in his telegram which he sent on June 3, 1894 that :

“ From Cambon to the Minister of Foreign Affairs :

Beyoglu : June 3, 1894

In the last days, an assassination has been made to a leader of Armenian Society in Istanbul. This person who survived the attack, is Simon Maksud, the gate attendant or the chief translator, a wealthy banker, and one of the contractors of the Ministry of Defence. Mr. Maksut, one of the members of the Patriarchate People’s Assembly, were known by the members of the same sect as a treacherous person who was sold to the Turks. Mr. Maksut, last year, when the celebration of the constitution granted by Sultan Mecit to the Armenians was banned by the Sultan, he refused to make conspiracies for the lifting of this ban. He attracted the hatred of the conspiracies and provocateurs violently.

The porters from Van, who tried to kill him, are the people who suffered a lot of from Kurds, and Turkish officials in Van.

There is no doubt that that we are facing a political murder. The murderers were carrying documents and letters written by the Armenian committees. These people admitted that they were hired by an Armenian person named Levona and who had paid them for the crime. After the assassination attempt, the committees wished to warn the members from the higher Armenian classes whom they considered to be treacherous and who did not serve to their national cause and were considered to be the friends of Turks. The committees wanted to strike their blows in the center of the government / in the capital, and not in the provinces from then on, and to provide a larger area for their activities, and to make a strong effect on the Sultan.

The Sultan was very annoyed by this assassination. A lot of arrests that were made by the police in Istanbul prove this.

P. Cambon “

The leader of the Hinchak Committee in Istanbul, after the Kumkapi demonstration, is Murad (Hamparsum Boyaciyan). Vart Badrikyan, came from Caucasia as the Hinchak representative. Badrikyan was arrested after one or two months later but since he was a Russian citizen, he was taken; by the Russian Embassy. Ardavazt Ohancanyan, was sent from Caucasia in lieu of him. The assassinations occured at a time when these representatives were in Istanbul. (1)

The oppressions of Armenians on Armenians do not only comprise of assassinations. The Armenian committeemen, who tried to obtain money for the rebellions, robbed a great number of Armenian citizens. As a matter of fact, the following information given to M. Sifir, whose actual name is Rezi Yalkin, by the famous Pantikyan, who played a great role in the armistice, is very shocking :

“ I would like to stress especially that, in the raids made by the Kurds and the Turks, as a reaction to the rebellion movements in the several regions of Anatolia at those times, the amount of material losses were extremely small compared to the wealth pillaged by the Hinchaks in the robberies in Istanbul. The percentage would not total even to one percent. The committeemen robbed the Istanbul Armenians in such a pitilessly. They put several wealthy persons into a penniless situation.

I find it useful to list the amount of money stolen at that time, to give a lesson to the new Armenian generation, to expose these robbers by giving figures, and the names of the owners of the money as far as I remember:

A committee of bandits conducting robberies under the leadership of the priest Murat Irakliyan, from Van, one of the famous wicked men operated in Bakirköy, Yedikule and Samatya. The collected twenty two thousand gold coins only from poor Armenian shoppers and craftsmen. They apart from these they collected six thousand gold coils from carpets trader Karnik Sümbülyan, five thousand gold coins from draper Nisan ªahpazyan, and ten thousand gold coins from mobile grains traders.

The robberies made in Yenikapi, Kumkapi districts were not less than these were at all. The all existences of all-small traders, shoppers and craftsmen were taken away from their hands and the safes of the outstanding wealthy men were all seized. In case my memories do not mislead myself, the totals of the robberies made in this district also reached thirty thousand golden coins.

Those who collected tributes in Galata and Beyoglu brole all the records of robbery. Thirty thousand gold coins were seized only from one of the outstanding jewellers of that time named Istepan, who was a wealthy Armenian, and a total of the robberies in this district hundred thousand gold coins was the sum total. Izmirliyan, who gained control of even the patriarchate Migir, together with the five secret detectives of the committee; priest Murat Irakliyan; Musdic Kesisyan, from Aleppo and his friends became extremely wealthy.

The committeemen of that time claimed that an important part of that money was given to the men of the palace. But these words are absolute lies, because, ten years after the event, Murat Irakliyan escaped to Sofia, and settled there. He personally told the event to my father in detail, and he emphasized that the thirty thousand gold coins which was his share, was taken by force from him by Izmirliyan. “ (2)

Assoc. Prof. Dr. Hasan Oktay, ation from the University of Yüzüncü Yil, Department of History, has found out a very shocking example regarding the oppressions of Armenians on Armenians :

“Following the atmosphere which prevailed after the announcement of the Second Constitutional Regime, the post of Mayor in Van, was given to Bedros Kapamaciyan, an Armenian member of Van Administrative Assembly, in the midst of the year 1909. In spite of the fact that the Moslem people constituted the majority of population in the city; Kapamaciyan Efendi was elected as a member without any considerations of discrimination by earning the respect of all the people, therefore, he also received votes the Moslem people. As a matter of fact, at the end of the elections, two out of ten members in the Administrative Assembly were Armenians.

Kapamaciyan Efendi, who pleased the people of the province during his administration and who always sided with the Ottoman State in spite of the Tashnak and Hinchak committees, served for the peace and the welfare of both the Turkish and the Armenian committees in Van. While Kapamaciyan, the Mayor, was working hard for the peace and the future of the city, the Armenian Patriarch was conspiring for plots and provocation in Van and its environs. He collaborated with the Tashnak committee in order to keep the Armenian matter alive for the European states.

As a result of these plots, a series of fires broke out in Van, and the houses of some of the Armenians were also burned up in these fires. The Patriarch wanted the Major to send a report to the Ambassadors of the European States stating that the fires and provocation were caused by the Moslem people, and that they are getting ready to destroy the lives and the property of the Armenians at any moment.

However, Kapamaciyan Efendi, the Mayor, sent a report telling that the matter was not so and the fires were started by the Armenian Tashnak committees.

The existence of Kapamaciyan Efendi, who spoiled the efforts of the revolutionary Armenians still working with great efforts in the center of Van, was an unbearable situation, so the committees took the decision to execute the major. The revolutionary gangs, who based their theories on an Armenian-Turkish conflict, had arranged assassinations before the outstanding Armenian people who supported the Ottoman State and who weakened their domination over the people. Thus, with this assassination they were going to frighten the community and avoid further opposition.

Kapamaciyan Efendi, who was frequently threatened on December 10, 1912 in the evening, w,th all his family got onto the sledges that was waiting in front of the door of his home, to go to Marcidciyan Efendi, who was one of his relatives, for the celebration of “name giving”. He did not know that he was on the black list. A Tashnak group was waiting near his home the group started a volley of shots onto the crowd. The Mayor, who was caught unaware and without any protection at all, was shot with two bullets in his head and fell dead on the ground.

Since the home of the Mayor was in the Baglar quarter, the closest patrol station was ten minutes away. So, the murderers fled in the darkness before the gendarmerie arrived. The Baglar quarter was a place with gardens and vineyards. In this is quarter Armenians were the majority and it was easy for the murderers to hide and run away.

The witnesses who saw the incident started to be questioned. The facial features and other information about the murderers were slowly being revealed. Especially from the evidence given by the Mayor’s son, it was understood that Karakin and his friend were probably the murderers. Thus, the disclosure of the murderers prevented probable clashes between the Moslem and the Armenians. Karakin was caught after rapid operations, and his friend whose name we could not find out, escaped. The assassins who were among the group who committed the crime and was wanted for smuggling arms into Van whose names were Potur, the carriage man, Sarac, Osep, jeweller Karakin, and somebody named Sahaf who fled to Karagündüz village after the event and who was one of the leading members of Tashnak committee, and who planned the murder of Kapamaciyan Efendi, were caught after a difficult search. The friend of the murderer Karakin, who got lost just after the event, was later on captured and put in prison.

Viramyan Efendi, one of the writers of the Azadamart newspaper as published in Van by the members of Tashnak committee in Van; Aram Manukyan Efendi, the inspector of Armenian schools and the Van delagate of Tashnak committee; and some of the Armenian leaders of the Tashnak committee were arrested for plotting Mayor Kapamaciyan’s murder.

Because the Ottoman officials were successful in finding the murderer of Kapamaciyan, who was very popular among the Armenians, the capturing of the murderers, even though they were not punished severely, still met with pleasure by the people. But the Armenian people felt deep sorrow because the murderers were Armenians. Necessary measures were taken in the funeral and thus special care was taken to avoid any disturbances. The English, Russian, and the French Consuls were among the foreign missions who also participated in the funeral. However, the fact that nobody from the military and also from the Tashnak committee was at the ceremony, which was rather meaningful. With this attitude, the Tashnak committee made it clear to their supporters and enemies that they killed the mayor and thus this was a warning to their enemies.  

The revolutionist Tashnak committees could kill their own people without any their hesitation to reach their goals. The committeemen were capable doing all kinds of actions for the formation of a suitable medium for a revolution. They conducted their actions systematically with the help of Russia; they were able to occupy Van, temporarily. When the Russians retreated because of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, Van again passed to the hands of Turks. “ (3)  

Oktay, reports the following from Altan Deliorman concerning to the oppressions of Armenians on Armenians:

“While the Armenians were conducting their activities in Anatolia, in Istanbul they were also, killing those Armenians who did not sympathise with them. Advocate Hachik; Dacad Vartabet, the Chief priest of Gedikpasa Church; Trader Karagözyan, Candle man Onnik; Apik Uncuyan; Policeman Markar, Mampre Vartabet, the member of the Spiritual Assembly; Hajji Dikran Migirdic Tütüncüyan are only a few of the Armenians who were murdered by the Armenian gangs. “ (4)

REFERENCES
(1) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi / The Armenians and the Armenian Matter In History, Belge Publications, Istanbul, 1987, p. 469 — 471.
(2) Banoglu, Niyazi Ahmet, Gündüz Printing House, Ankara, 1976, p. 24 — 25.
(3) Oktay, Assoc. Prof. Dr., Hazan, "www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/articles"
(4) Altan Deliorman, Türklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri, Istanbul, 1975, p. 31.

92 posted on 04/26/2003 6:28:01 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: George W. Bush
"You seem to be claiming that the Armenians were the ones killing the Turks and the Russians apparently did nothing." ..and... "And you're trying to somehow claim that the peace-loving humanitarian Russian army didn't kill any Muslims or Turks but they were all murdered by the Armenians? Is that it?"

Huh? Such an inference is, to say the least, rather stretched.

"The 600K Armenians killed were, I suppose, killed by Turks in self-defense or some other such nonsense."

The essay starts by discussing the relocation of the Armenian population during WWI and the suffering experienced by those who made the track.

"I think this research summary is flawed if not fraud. It doesn't identify in even a general and consistent way how many Turks died and what other Muslim minorities died and who killed the other Muslim minorities in the area."

This is because it is a summary.

You are deliberately misreading and misrepresenting this, and so we are back to where we started, with "Turks bad. Armenians and everyone else good," etc.

93 posted on 04/26/2003 6:30:13 PM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (More Power to the Troops! More Bang for the Buck!)
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To: Turk2
The New York Times'(May 19 1985) pertinent page on the research made by a commission of American scientists.

I would be interested to see the names and universities who signed this ad which was, of course, paid for by the Turkish lobby.

BTW, didn't the House pass it anyway? Maybe they didn't find it so compelling. Why won't you show us their names and credentials, maybe some information about who funded their "studies" on the Armenian holocaust?
94 posted on 04/26/2003 6:33:34 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Turk2
What, I should be surprised that Armenians or any other inhabitants of the region kill their own when it pleases them? Par for the course, it would seem. The central Asians and the Arabs seem to do a lot of it. Unless you're somehow suggesting the Armenian holocaust was perpetrated by the Armenians themselves.
95 posted on 04/26/2003 6:37:54 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush; Turk2; Mortimer Snavely; eleni121
> As far as Islam and its effects on treatment of women in other Islamic countries, I think that is intrisic to the system.

I used to live across the street from an American woman in Ohio some years back while in college. This woman had five bastards and was sexed and beaten by a different man every night.

This was an American woman. Her "suiters" were Americans.. These are your people. Your grass roots.

Stick that in your intern and smoke it..
96 posted on 04/26/2003 6:40:49 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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To: George W. Bush
You truly are an interesting character. You are saying that the director of a place that gets its funding from Armenian and Greek societies in Australia has no agenda? Would they have a reason to exist if they disproved the Armenian Allegations? There are also other genocides waiting in line for this to be accepted through worldwide hysteria.

It is funny that Mr. Cohen cites tactics used by Armenians for the last 80 years as those used by Turks.

The Armenians use their propaganda about this imaginary genocide inpired by the success of the Bulgarians who managed to change 2000 killed during an uprising into a massive tragedy in which 100,000 slaughtered by barbaric Turks in the view of western media and hence gained their independence.

The Armenians have denied the activities of terrorist Armenian revolutionary organizations, mainly the Tashnak and Hinchak committees which controlled up to 100,000 armed militia.

Lies and coverups about massacres of Turks by Armenians, documented to over 500,000 civilians by Armenians.

The forging of documents as seen in my posts above (which you still insist on not reading).

The Ottoman and Turkish archives of the time are open to all researchers in the field. However, Armenian committees' archives held in the US (I wonder why?) [fully closed] as well as British, French and Russian documents pertaining to that era have still not been opened fully to for research. The British documents about the disinformation activities of British Intelligence have been destroyed.

Does financing research centers , fellowships and chairs in universities for Armenian genocide research not count as bribery?

97 posted on 04/26/2003 6:50:53 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
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To: a_Turk
Yes all Americans are "our people" and have the full rights of American citizens whether their behavior is disgusting or not. At least we don't butcher those who are not like us like Muslim Turks have been doing to the Christian Armenians Greeks and Assyrians who Turks have genocided into oblivion.

Go back to the mongolian steppes.

98 posted on 04/26/2003 6:52:00 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: a_Turk
Sounds like one of our patients.
99 posted on 04/26/2003 6:54:28 PM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (More Power to the Troops! More Bang for the Buck!)
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To: eleni121
>> Go back to the mongolian steppes.

No one can ever go home, Helen..
100 posted on 04/26/2003 6:54:48 PM PDT by a_Turk (Lookout, lookout, the candy man..)
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