Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What are the most important factors in determining "stopping power"? (vanity)
self

Posted on 06/21/2003 5:53:58 AM PDT by rudy45

I have been investigating various pistols for self-defense/concealed carry purposes. From time to time I see threads on the merits of one caliber vs. another. For example, I have seen snide (g) comments about .380 (e.g. "great for shooting mice" or "what are you going to do with it, THROW it at your attacker?").

I wonder, however, if OTHER factors besides caliber will affect stopping power. Specifically, am I correct that different types of ammunition, though designed for the same gun, can/will have different speeds? If I remember my physics correctly, force=mass times the square of acceleration. Therefore, is it possible that even with a "smaller" caliber such as .22 or .380, I can compensate by having a higher velocity round? In other words, do different types of ammunition vary that greatly in speed as to affect stopping ability? Thanks.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption
KEYWORDS: ammunition; banglist; dvc; guns; selfdefense
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-76 next last

1 posted on 06/21/2003 5:53:58 AM PDT by rudy45
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: rudy45; Joe Brower
Now you've done it.
2 posted on 06/21/2003 5:58:54 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (I am not a prime demographic, I am a MAN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: *bang_list
Ping for information (I just use hair spray with a lighter myself)
3 posted on 06/21/2003 5:59:54 AM PDT by chance33_98 (http://home.frognet.net/~thowell/haunt/ ---->our ghosty page)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tijeras_Slim
Speed,weight and location.
4 posted on 06/21/2003 6:00:40 AM PDT by mict42
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
In terms of physics the round that is able to transfer most of it's power is the round with the most stopping power.

That's why the .45 is so popular. It's large cross section does that quite nicely. But some people like the 9mm because if you use the right type it'll open up nicely and perform very similar.
5 posted on 06/21/2003 6:01:36 AM PDT by Bogey78O (check it out... http://freepers.zill.net/users/bogey78o_fr/puppet.swf)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
If I remember my physics correctly, force=mass times the square of acceleration.

F=ma; KE=(mv^2)/2
6 posted on 06/21/2003 6:02:20 AM PDT by sasquatch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
I'm not an expert in this subject, but I believe location, location, location of the slugs impact is a good barometer of stopping power.
7 posted on 06/21/2003 6:02:42 AM PDT by Fzob (Why does this tag line keep showing up?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Foot Pounds of Energy, Expansion of the bullet and accuracy (target placement). In other words Physics and Training (maybe Talent).
8 posted on 06/21/2003 6:03:02 AM PDT by Woodman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Well, FWIW, practical experience suggests that the .45 ACP does the job.

I would just get that and fuggedaboudit. :-D

9 posted on 06/21/2003 6:04:02 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Velocity and penetration are important. If the bullet gets stopped by clothing, body armor, etc., there's virtually no stopping power.
10 posted on 06/21/2003 6:12:41 AM PDT by TERMINATTOR (Don't tread on me!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
The only thing that counts in "stopping power" is transfer of momentum. The round has to have momentum = mass x velocity and it has to impart it to the target. A heavy fast round is generally better. Try a 105 Howitzer, if you can aim it with one hand. For hand guns, I think the M1911 (Army .45) if not the winner, is right up there and more than adequate for most work.

If a round passes through a target is does not impart all its momentum. If the round bounces off the target, counter-intuitively, it gets momentum from the target and actually transfers more momentum. If you had armor which caused bullets to bounce off, they would actually transfer more momentum than rounds that stuck to the armor.

In practice, you should chose a weapon for self defense that you are comfortable with. If the recoil or weight of a 0.45 is more than you can comfortably handle, you may be better off with a smaller weapon. Regardless, remember, keep shooting. "Why'd you shoot him 44 times?" , "Ran out of ammunition." One shot from a 0.38 is about as likely to infuriate as drive off an assailant. And shoot to kill. The sternum is a good target, even if you miss you might hit something.
11 posted on 06/21/2003 6:14:07 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets ("ALL THE NEWS THAT FITS, WE PRINT")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
The key is to transmit as much energy as possible from the bullet to the target. In theory you could push a .22 fast enough to carry more enery than a .380. But the cross section of the bullet is so small that it cant transmit its energy to the target rapidly and "shock" the target.

Velocity + mass + a good quality hollow point bullet that will expand rapidly and retain its mass are the key to "stopping power".
12 posted on 06/21/2003 6:16:23 AM PDT by heckler (wiskey for my men, beer for my horses)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
My formula is,

.45ACP (any quality pistol) + 100 rounds a week (practice) + 2 rounds into the target (tap-tap) = unbelievable stopping power.
13 posted on 06/21/2003 6:19:20 AM PDT by x1stcav ( HOOAHH!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
For what it's worth, the United States Army continues to discover that the 9mm round is inadequate in re 'stopping power' in combat. Multiple complaints coming out of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq are documented in official 'lessons learned' reports.

The reason the Army adopted the .45 in the first place was that the .38 caliber pistol was too weak when used against the Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines, and hence when the .45 was successful in shooting and stopping doped-up insurgents, it became the M1911 service pistol.

I own a Beretta 9mm, and hope to buy a Kahr 9mm for concealed carry, regardless of these facts. Why? Combat engagement ranges are usually in excess of 50 meters, and personal protection situations usually are less than 10 meters. I'm gaining concealment of a smaller weapon for the trade off in stopping power (particularly at distance). Plus I plan and train to shoot two rounds center mass of target, and then re-evaluate the threat.

So, it really comes down to what you're comfortable carrying, shooting and hitting your target with.

14 posted on 06/21/2003 6:20:26 AM PDT by ReaganCowboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
The physics are pretty straightforward regarding the terminal ballistics of various rounds. Obviously, the larger, and heavier, and faster a bullet is, the more energy it has available at impact.

How this energy translates to 'stopping power' is less clear cut. No two people are built the same, and there are examples where a .22 into the arm can 'stop' some people, while 4 or 5 rounds to the chest from a .45 might not be enough to 'stop' someone else (at least in time for it to matter.)

Use as big and as fast a round as you are comfortable using. A fast 9mm round may carry as much energy as a slower but heavier .45 round, but unless you hit something, it won't matter.

Personally, I like the 9mm CorBon +P 115gr JHP. Either that or a firm tone of voice will stop most people.
15 posted on 06/21/2003 6:29:37 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ReaganCowboy
Have you tried the Taurus PT145? It's a medium sized .45 that holds 10 rounds. In my hand the barrel only sticks out 1.5 inches past my pointy finger when I extend it.
16 posted on 06/21/2003 6:37:48 AM PDT by Bogey78O (check it out... http://freepers.zill.net/users/bogey78o_fr/puppet.swf)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: spodefly
115gr JHP

Please forgive my possible ignorance, but I gather that JHP is a brand of ammunition, in which each round has 115 grains (?) of gunpowder? Is 115 grains considered much, or little, or in-between? Thanks.

17 posted on 06/21/2003 6:38:30 AM PDT by rudy45
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Interesting subject. The Momentum vs. Kinetic energy theories.
Momentum has an emphasis on mass...a la the .45 at a moderate velocity(830-900 fps). 185-200 gr JHP being the most effective in this range.
Kinetic has the emphasis on higher velocity a la the 9mm. The 115 gr JHP at 1300-1500 fps has been the standard, although the FBI tried to up the weight and get closer to the Momentum side with the 147 gr JHP at a sub-sonic velocity(950 fps).
The 10mm was a total step in combining the two., high velocity(1300 fps) and bullet mass and weight(.40 caliber/200 gr JHP)
Problem with the 10mm was it battered the guns badly. So, the FBI went to the 10mm Lite. A toned down velocity(900 FPS). This left a large amount of the case empty and a possible detonation might occur.
In steps S&W with a modified 10mm cartridge....small primered, 200 gr JHP, moderate velocity, substaintial crosssection(.40 cal) and POOF!! the 40 S&W is born.

Now, having said all that, it comes down to which portion of the stopping power curve you want to be on. Recoil plays a key role in this. You certainly want to have control of the weapon...9mm being fairly easy to handle is still adequate for defense. The 125 gr 357 Magnum is sited as the best for stopping power, but you pay in recoil.

FORGET ABOUT 1-SHOT STOPPING POWER. There is no such thing as it takes a brain or spine shot to effect a complete shutdown of a perp, both iffy under stress. Proper bullet placement and 'hit them til they go down' no matter the caliber should be how you train.

18 posted on 06/21/2003 6:40:49 AM PDT by Pistolshot (I speak from practical experience, and the nightmares STILL haven't gone away.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Jacketed Hollow Point.
115 grain is the weight of the bullet.
19 posted on 06/21/2003 6:45:56 AM PDT by heckler (wiskey for my men, beer for my horses)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
comments about .380 (e.g. "great for shooting mice" or "what are you going to do with it, THROW it at your attacker?").

As a person who loads and carries many calibers, I think these statements do not bear out with ER statistics. A .380 Hydrashock, etc. can be a deadly round. I do not weigh 300 pounds. I cannot conceal my .45 Colt Combat Commander MKII in the Summertime. I carry a .380 simply because I cannot conceal the Sig 226, either.

I think comments like that are best reserved to the useless and annoying .25ACP. They neglect that fact that in many places, if used in self-defense, you WILL use it at powder burn range, or you will go down for murder.

20 posted on 06/21/2003 6:47:59 AM PDT by Gorzaloon (Contents may have settled during shipping, but this tagline contains the stated product weight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gorzaloon
Here is the other problem with what to carry. The size packages available for summer carry are limited. The Glock mini's are nice, but bulky. The 380 size guns are pocketable, also kinda bulky. The KAHR is a smallish pistol with the 9mm/40S&W at its caliber. It is about the same size as a lot of 380's and in a more effective cartridge.

The 22/25 are a compromise in carry package, certainly not in caliber choice. The 25 starts to come into a better cartridge, but only with specialized ammo....Glasers. The 380 is an ok cartridge, but if you are looking at a package that small, there are many good 38 Special revolvers in the same size and even less weight with Titanium available. And you get a more effective cartridge.

21 posted on 06/21/2003 6:59:59 AM PDT by Pistolshot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
I once attended a triple funeral for three people each killed with one .22lr shot to the head.
22 posted on 06/21/2003 7:01:36 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45; 45Auto; glock rocks
Bump.
23 posted on 06/21/2003 7:05:57 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Eagle Eye
A woman in NEw Orleans was killed last month by a .22 to the chest.

The effective thing about the round is that if the location is right it bounces around inside the body. It may not stop a charge but that can be just as lethal.
24 posted on 06/21/2003 7:06:05 AM PDT by Bogey78O (check it out... http://freepers.zill.net/users/bogey78o_fr/puppet.swf)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Eagle Eye
I once attended a triple funeral for three people each killed with one .22lr shot to the head.

And that round can indeed produce fatal results, with head shots, as in the assassination of Robert Kennedy. However, John Hinkley failed to produce similar results when he attacked Ronald Reagan in 1981. If Hickley had a .45, we'd have had George Bush (41) eight years earlier. (Perish the thought!)

25 posted on 06/21/2003 7:08:39 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Bogey78O
I'm not recommending a Ruger MK II for self defense, but with the right shot placement it, or others of the same caliber are lethal.

But I'd rather have that .22 than a rolled up newspaper!

26 posted on 06/21/2003 7:09:06 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
The ratio of the area of the disc brake to that of the brake pad is the co-efficient of "stopping power"....with the weight of the vehicle also a contributing factor...(g)
27 posted on 06/21/2003 7:09:46 AM PDT by ken5050
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45

This usually freezes them in their tracks.

Otherwise, 45ACP 185 JHP or in a revolver .38 Special +P 147 Hydrashock.

28 posted on 06/21/2003 7:13:48 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (I am not a prime demographic, I am a MAN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Please forgive my possible ignorance, but I gather that JHP is a brand of ammunition, in which each round has 115 grains (?) of gunpowder? Is 115 grains considered much, or little, or in-between? Thanks.

JHP stands for Jacketed Hollow Point, also known as 'flying ash trays' ... The brand of ammunition I was referring to is actually made by CorBon ... the CorBon +P 115gr JHP specifically ... CorBon makes rounds for law enforcement and military that us civie slobs can also buy. The +P stands for 'increased pressure', meaning that the round is loaded (with propellent/powder) slightly hotter than a typical 9mm round, so it has a higher velocity than a 'normal' 9mm round. The '115gr' is the weight of the bullet itself, not the powder.

+p rounds should only be fired thru higher quality guns in good condition, btw. I have put around 3000 rounds of the +p through my Beretta 92F (and maybe 5000 more rounds that are not +p), and it is holding up well.

29 posted on 06/21/2003 7:16:40 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Bogey78O
Bought my PT145 right after 9-11-01. The more I shoot the Taurus, the better I like it. (especially when I out-shoot guys with much more expensive pistols.)

Also just got my Terrorist Hunting License...no bag limit.
30 posted on 06/21/2003 7:23:32 AM PDT by Tahoe3002
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Shot placement is a factor in stopping power. Two to the torso (center of mass) and one to the head. Try to put them all in front so your testimony that you were in fear for your life sounds credible. It helps if the stiff when found has something sharp and shiny in his/her hand.
31 posted on 06/21/2003 7:27:44 AM PDT by RicocheT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
These rules will serve you well.

1. shot placement
2. Shot placement
3. In in the words of Massad Ayoob..air rushing in, and blood rushing out. The secret is to choose the bullet that causes the most bleeding in the target in the shortest amount of time. THAT is what causes the goblin to lose interest in interacting with you and persuades he or she to fall down or go away and fall down.

In my Glock 26, I choose Cor-Bon 115 gr +p+
In my 45 acp Kimber Gold Match, I have a case of Remington 185 Gr +p+ ammunition, that I use sparingly, because I don't think they make it any more.

32 posted on 06/21/2003 7:44:15 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Up until recent years, the general concensus among people who shoot other people in their line of work seemed to be that either the .45acp or the .357 magnum were the rounds to count on when your life is at stake. OTOH, the .40S&W is now the standard police round in the US, and there must be a good reason for that too. The newer .357 SIG is also used by some departments. I have never fired a .40 caliber pistol of any kind myself, but I have friends who believe they're the best thing to come along since smokeless powder.

I wouldn't hesitate to choose a 9mm, or even a .38 with good ammunition, if I were limited to a medium caliber handgun. But since I'm not, I practice regularly with both a .45acp 1911 pistol and a model 66 .357 magnum revolver. It's almost impossible to conceal either of those guns in hot weather clothing, so I admit to carrying a small .38 revolver, or at times an even smaller .380 pistol in summer. My theory is that in the unlikely event that a life threatening confrontation occurs, any gun is better than no gun. So even if I were for some reason restricted to only a .22 or .25 caliber pistol, I would make it a point to have it close at hand whenever possible.

33 posted on 06/21/2003 8:04:37 AM PDT by epow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
I carry a full 5" frame Kimber .45cal ACP with Corbon +P 165gr JHP hollow-points (1250fps/ 573ftlbs) and also use Sellier & Belloit 230gr as a practice round. Since I wear my shirttail out, concealed carry isn't a problem even in the summer. I still carry my Glock 32/.357sig and use Corbon 165gr for that too, in the appropriate caliber.

That said, and a bit off-topic, I just bought a .50cal Beowulf - http://www.alexanderarms.com/beowulf.html - and I can guarrantee anyone that it'll drop anyone with one shot. Go to the ammo page and see the 325gr and 400gr loads. Their motto is, "If you are going to make a hole, make it as big as possible" is correct. A bit *too big to carry concealed*, though. Blew a piece of 12" x 12" oak lumber into teeny-tiny splinters, though. Awesome stopping power.
34 posted on 06/21/2003 8:10:08 AM PDT by Hinoki Cypress
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bogey78O
Have you tried the Taurus PT145? It's a medium sized .45 that holds 10 rounds. In my hand the barrel only sticks out 1.5 inches past my pointy finger when I extend it.

I've had one for about a year now, like it, have better than a thousand rounds fired through it with no problems, and find it carries on an inside-the-trousers belt holster better than most of the cut-down M1911 versions do, [that's not to say that I don't like a M1911 .45, only that I prefer them in a full-size or Commander-sized package.] particularly in the summertime under a T-shirt or golf shirt.

You'll find a great deal of information on the PT145 and other caliber Taurus autos at PT145.com and its certainly worth checking out in detail if you're considering one of these pistols.

35 posted on 06/21/2003 8:28:10 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
All the comments you've gotten so far are valid. There is no magic bullet, althought the 45 aficianados will sometimes lead you to believe it is (I avidly shoot 45 ACP). You need to look at your overall situation. How big a gun can you carry based on concealment needs and how well can you shoot the weapons you have. Mass and energy transfer are true, but they mean nothing if you can't hit with what you shoot so shot placement is critcal too. A target hit in a vital area with a .380/.32/9mm will suffer more energy transfer that a target missed with a .44 magnum.

Find a weapon you are comfortable with, get good quality factory hollow point ammunition (Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Federal Hydra Shok, Winchester SXT)to carry in it. Get some decent target ammo and shoot. A lot. My solution to the shooting a lot is a Dillon 550 progressive re-loader and once a week on the range with my duty weapon and my fun guns

The right gun to have in a crappy situation is the one you've got on you. Make sure you know how to work it and hit the target. Good Luck

36 posted on 06/21/2003 8:47:28 AM PDT by 5Madman2 (DemocRATS are Vermin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: ken5050
You must also factor in the density of the tread rubber.
38 posted on 06/21/2003 8:54:02 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Shot placement is the most important factor.

Kinetic energy is the next most important.

Other folks have complied numbers on the kinetic energy of rounds. 45 caliber and 357SIG are at the top of the list of practical calibers. .40 is close and 9mm is lower. There is a big gap between 9mm and .380.

For that reason, I'd be uncomfortable depending on anything less than 9mm.

39 posted on 06/21/2003 9:00:42 AM PDT by Mulder (Live Free or die)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: heckler
In theory you could push a .22 fast enough to carry more energy than a .380...

That's right, you can. In fact, they refer to it as the 5.56 NATO round (or .223). It's in the M16/AR15.

And it packs A HELL of a lot more punch than the .380.

40 posted on 06/21/2003 9:08:00 AM PDT by The Coopster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
Therefore, is it possible that even with a "smaller" caliber such as .22 or .380, I can compensate by having a higher velocity round? In other words, do different types of ammunition vary that greatly in speed as to affect stopping ability?

A 55 grain .223 will have significantly more stopping power than a 150 grain .38, due to higher velocity, and thus higher kinetic energy.

The "stopping power" of a round is dependent on how much kinetic energy can be applied to damaging tissue and causing rapid blood loss, which depends on how much energy is in the round, and how much of that energy is actually expended in the target (a round which makes a neat tiny hole and expends most of its energy in the wall beyond the target doesn't do you that much good.

Big, deep holes are better than small or shallow holes

Depending on the target, a .22 may stop one aggressor, while another (for example, hyped up on PCP) may require an RPG splattering body parts over the landscape to stop.

One final note: a .22 in the hand beats a .44 magnum left home in the closet. The ideal carry gun is the one light enough to be carried habitually, while having enough power to take down an average attacker. You may be best served by having two carry guns: a small light one for times when concealability is most important, and a .45 for those times when you need to be going thru nasty parts of town at night

41 posted on 06/21/2003 9:15:23 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer looking for next gig)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: The Coopster
Kind of uncomfortable to stuff one in your waistband though, even with a collapsible stock.
42 posted on 06/21/2003 9:16:04 AM PDT by heckler (wiskey for my men, beer for my horses)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
There are diffent ammunition manufacturers that make different types of ammo for the same gun.

Let's say you have that Walther .380 and you decide to practice. You can go to Wal-mart and pick up some inexpensive ammuntion that has a standard Round nosed Jacketed bullet on a standard load of powder. The powder would give a medium velocity and you could practice all day with it.

The same manufacturer could also design a bullet that could open up to a larger diameter and increase the powder charge for a higher velocity and it would still be safe to use. The price of the ammunition would be higher too.

Include a half dozen manufacturers making different cartridges for different applications and you could see a wide range of ammunition that can be used in the same pistol.
43 posted on 06/21/2003 9:20:36 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
115gr JHP

115 gr is the weight of the bullet in grains (437.5 grains = 1 ounce)

JHP = jacketed hollow point = bullet with a hollow cavity in front (which makes it open up and expand on impact) and a copper jacket surrounding it (so you don't get lead buildup on the inside of your barrel)

44 posted on 06/21/2003 9:25:21 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer looking for next gig)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: rudy45
I think a lot of people are confused by stopping power and lethality. I see a lot of people who seem to use them interchangably.

Almost any size round can be lethal if used right. As someone else posted, the AR-15 (an excellent gun) uses a .223 round and it is a highly lethal weapon. However, if you shoot someone with a .22 short round from a short barrel pistol, well you might as well beat them over the head with the pistol. It will probably be more effective.

A bigger round, like a .44 magnum, a .45 ACP, or a .50 caliber will almost always stop someone dead in their tracks. A smaller, high velocity round like a 9mm can go straight through someone without them even realizing they've been shot (for a while anyway).

But I also subscribe to the school of thought that says I'd rather carry a .25 than nothing at all.

45 posted on 06/21/2003 9:46:23 AM PDT by tdadams
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lonesome in Massachussets
If the round bounces off the target, counter-intuitively, it gets momentum from the target and actually transfers more momentum. If you had armor which caused bullets to bounce off, they would actually transfer more momentum than rounds that stuck to the armor.

Yes, but the momentum of a bullet is not all that much. The momentum of the bullet as it hits its target is less (because of air resistance) than the momentum when it left your gun. The recoil of your handgun is worse than the sheer momentum the victim feels. If the bullet bounces off, I suppose the momentum could be increased, but what matters is the

momentum/(surface area * time)
(I think--it's been a while since I did any physics)
46 posted on 06/21/2003 9:52:39 AM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: heckler
In theory you could push a .22 fast enough to carry more enery than a .380.

Such a thing exists, in handgun form. The FN Five-seveN does this.

FN 5.7x28mm ball: 31gr 2,133fps 309ft/lbs*
Winchester .380ACP
silvertip hollowpoint:
85gr 1000fps 189 ft/lbs
Sources: FN, Winchester Ammunition, * calculated by arnieairsoft program
47 posted on 06/21/2003 10:14:35 AM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: xm177e2
Thats the round that they use in that funky little submachine gun that FN developed , isnt it?
48 posted on 06/21/2003 10:18:43 AM PDT by heckler (wiskey for my men, beer for my horses)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: tdadams
However, if you shoot someone with a .22 short round from a short barrel pistol, well you might as well beat them over the head with the pistol. It will probably be more effective.

The Israeli El Al airline security officers assigned to that detail by the General Security Services [ShinBet] thought otherwise, and found the reduced loads used in their .22 Berettas [loaded in .22 long rifle cartridge cases for feeding through the pistols magazines, but at .22 short velocity levels] were quite okay. I had the chance to shoot with a couple of those operators, who thought that shooting off a 500-round box of ammo was a good warmup, and that my Browning GP was unnecessarily noisy. A few also used the .22 short chambered Astra model 2000 *cub* as a backup handgun; the little Astra makes even a Walther PPK look large by comparison; I used to keep one as a backup in my handcuff case. But again, you have to practice with it to get the desired result.

There's at least one recorded case of an elephant being killed by a .22 short. And do not ever think that if such a weapon is pointed your way that your life is not in danger.


50 posted on 06/21/2003 10:47:07 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-76 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson