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Serbian Vidovdan
email | June 27 2003 | Zoran Smajic

Posted on 06/27/2003 5:02:45 PM PDT by joan

For all the Serbs around the world, in Serbia and the Diaspora. Pedal in Peace wishes everyone a great weekend of celebration. Dosta!!!
VIDOVDAN! KOSOVO JE SRBIJA, BOSNA JE SRBIJE. KOSOVO JE SRPSKA ZEMLJA!.

Remain strong and faithful to our faith, Serbia remains strong only if we remain strong. The Orthodox is our foundation, our pillar which we must never relinquish. Already, the Pedal in Peace founder has received disturbing phone calls from Croatians "criticizing" this endeavour. Ignorance is their fault while their bigotry will not detract from PiP's focus!

Pedal in Peace rides on Aug 02 through the 15th, ending in Presevo, Serbia after starting in Novi Grad, Republika Srpska.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans

1 posted on 06/27/2003 5:02:45 PM PDT by joan
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To: vooch; Destro; kosta50; bob808; DestroyEraseImprove; Dragonfly; Incorrigible; MarMema; crazykatz; ..
fyi
2 posted on 06/27/2003 5:03:11 PM PDT by joan
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To: joan
Thanks Joan...
3 posted on 06/27/2003 5:27:55 PM PDT by bob808
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To: joan; katnip; FormerLib; RussianConservative
Hope this is not a double ping. Please tell me more about the children in need of a sponsor.
4 posted on 06/27/2003 5:51:30 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema; joan
Joan, wishing PIP a safe trip-how are the injuries? Will he be attending the camp this year?

MarMema, here is the info you requested: http://www.nasasrbija.org/E_site/start_e.htm
(kleenex required). Don't miss the info on prior camp-a great experience for these children.
5 posted on 06/27/2003 7:18:56 PM PDT by getgoing
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To: getgoing
I am still confused. Is this like those child-sponsor organizations? Where you are linked with a child and send a monthly amount?
Thanks for your patience with me.
6 posted on 06/27/2003 8:02:04 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: getgoing
I did really love this though -

"This help does not only mean meeting their basic needs but also being aware that there is someone who cares for their future. Such a generosity will be certainly returned to someone else in the future. We'll open a circle of good deeds this way and they will lessen the evil that afflicted the youngest."

This is great. I have been looking for a project like this for our church family. Please explain to me exactly what you understand about how it works.

7 posted on 06/27/2003 8:04:28 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: joan
Thanks, joan. :-)
8 posted on 06/27/2003 9:51:36 PM PDT by Dragonfly
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To: joan; vooch; Destro; bob808; DestroyEraseImprove; Dragonfly; Incorrigible; MarMema; crazykatz; ...
Thanks, Joan, for posting this.

Vidovdan is also the date Djindjich and his anti-Serb coalition decided to extradite Miloshevich to the Hague.

Many have used Vidovdan (St. Vitus' Day) to make fun of Serbs who celebrate their "defeat." Historically, the result of the Kosovo battle between the Turks and the Serbs was a draw.

Although the Turks defeated the Serbs in battle, a fateful but not a given outcome on the Blackbird's (i.e. Kosovo) Field, their victory was tempered by the killing of the Turkish Sultan the night before by a Serb warrior Milosh Obilich. Aftere the battle, the decapitated Turkish army reatreated to what is today FYROM Macedonia for 100 years.

Thus, in their defeat, the Serbs have delayed Ottoman conquest of Europe and won, knowingly or not, for Christian Europe badly needed and precious time to prepare for and check the Ottoman advance next time around.

The Military Krayina was formed by the Serbs escaping Bosnia in the 15th century, a rather desolate and scarcely populated region. As a border that served Austria as an effective barrier to further Ottoman advance, the Krayina Serbs were privileged and free, as compared to their Croatian neighbors, who were serfs -- the seeds of the Serbo-Croat conflict that was to come of age centuries later.

In 1914, Archduke Ferninand came to Bosnia to observe Austro-Hungarian war games on Serbia's border with Austrian-occupied Bosnia. The day was Vidovdan, and a clear provocation.

After resisting for a whole year the might of Austria-Hungary and Germany combined, Serbia -- that only two years earlier fought two major wars -- began to collapse. The Serb army retreated, thanks to various units that were literally sacrificed to slow down the enemy advance, to the Kosovo Polye and there made a decision to retreat through Albania to the coast, where they were promised by the British to be picked up and readided to come back to Serbia.

So, symbolically, once again, on that Field, and with their sovereign, the Serbs chose to die (about 1/3 died on the trek through Albania) rather than surrender.

The very first Yugoslavia (then known as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes) had a Constiution that was voted in on Vidovdan and is in fact known as the Vidovdanski ustav, St. Vitus's Day Constitution.

Miloshevich held his famnous and misquoted speech on the Gazimestan, the physical battlefield in Kosovo Polye, for a 600th anniversary, when over 1 million Serbs showed up.

Kosovo has been Serbia's curse and blessing. It is one of those eternal issues that never goes away.

9 posted on 06/27/2003 10:15:03 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Very stirring, thanks Kosta.
10 posted on 06/27/2003 10:50:50 PM PDT by bob808
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To: MarMema; kosta50
MarMema, I believe you are able to write the children and send holiday gifts. The support is handled quarterly for processing & continuity purposes. Based on experience w/other organizations & their site content, should you learn otherwise please let me know.

Kosta, thank you for insight not found in educational history books. Text books in TX have been revised to include a pro-Saudi slant in recent years. Heaven only knows what our school children are learning about Balkan history.
11 posted on 06/28/2003 1:23:26 AM PDT by getgoing
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To: kosta50
It is one of those eternal issues that never goes away.

Yes. I very much agree and think that there is much we don't (yet?) understand about the Serbs and Kosovo.

12 posted on 06/28/2003 1:25:41 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: getgoing; All
Great, thanks. Now who can tell me how much this is -
"Monthly help is 30 EUR (in Yugoslav currency + mail taxes) per child."
13 posted on 06/28/2003 1:28:12 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: FormerLib; RussianConservative

A new generation....

14 posted on 06/28/2003 1:37:19 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: kosta50
In 1914, Archduke Ferninand came to Bosnia to observe Austro-Hungarian war games on Serbia's border with Austrian-occupied Bosnia. The day was Vidovdan, and a clear provocation.

Maybe this is a big can of worms to open, but I'm interested in hearing your take on this; I've heard that Archduke Ferdinand was actually very pro-Serb and had much respect for the Serbian people which tended to mark him as a black sheep to the Hapsburghs and therefore expendable. I'm actually friends with Serbs that had him as Kumovi in their family and they consider him a sacrificial lamb for the Austria-Hungarian Empire.

I heard that Archduke Ferdinand may have been sent to Sarajevo on Vidovdan knowing that he would likely be executed and it would be a great excuse for Austria-Hungary to declare an ultimatum to Serbia that they could never possibly accept and therefore Austria-Hungary could feel justified in swallowing up a Serbia that had been very much exhausted by the Balkan Wars.

Do you think there can be any truth to this theory?

15 posted on 06/28/2003 4:46:40 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Chance Gardner or Bob Roberts?)
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To: joan
Bump to read later..
16 posted on 06/28/2003 6:22:33 AM PDT by katnip
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To: getoffmylawn
I heard that Archduke Ferdinand may have been sent to Sarajevo on Vidovdan knowing that he would likely be executed and it would be a great excuse for Austria-Hungary to declare an ultimatum to Serbia

The Serbian Royal Police warned Austria-Hungary that there may be an attempt on Archduke's life if he came to Sarajevo on Vidovdan, but that warning went uheeded. Serbia had no interest in fighting one of the largest empires in Europe, especially in view of the effort and sacrifice of successfully kicking Turks out of Europe in the First Balkan War (1912), and then defeating her ally Bulgaria in the Second Balkan War (1913) that started with Bulgaria's unprovoked attack on Serbia. So, Serbia had no motive to kill Archduke. It also had nothing to gain. On the other hand, Austria-Hungary had a rich motive and stood a lot to gain by picking a fight with Serbia, especially at the time when Serbia's energies have been drained by wars.

Looking at the political map of the Blakans in 1914, the only obstacle to the so-called Berlin-Baghdad Axis was Serbia and its tiny sister kingdom of Montenegro. They were the only two countries that had native dynasties and were firecly pro-western. All other Balkan countries, including Serbia's ally Greece, had foreign royalty, mostly German and, in the case of Albania, Italian.

Although tiny compared to super powers of Europe, Serbia has doubled its size in just two years following the Balkan wars, and was becoming a local powerbroker. More importantly, Serbia has been a source of inspiration to other Slavs in the area who were still in German, Hungarian or Italian lands. The Croatian Illyrian (later renamed Yugoslav) movement was looking towards Serbia as a way of helping Croats attain their independence from Austria-Hungary.

Serbia and Montenegro therefore stood as a living proof that Southern Slav can not only be free but victorious. That did not go very well with Vienna or Berlin.

In addition to that, Bosnian Serbs (who were a 44% majority population at that time) were boiling with a desire to rid themselves of Austrian and Muslim domination, and to join their kin in Serbia and Montenegro. Besidres, Bosnia has always been a Serb land -- and edicts of Bosnia's earliest rulers leave no doubt of that.

An underground movement called "The Black Hand" headed by a Serbian colonel with alias Apis was actively recruiting the willing and able to fight Austria covertly by means that, depending whose side you are on, are called terrorist or guerilla. The Serbian government was not happy about this and saw Apis as a dangerous destabilizing factor that could hurt Serbia's interests, so Serbia had very reason to warn Austria-Hungary of the impending assassination attempt.

The actual assassination attempt on Archudke failed. A hand granade tossed into his car was thrown out only to explode on the street and hurt members of the motorcade security. Later, Archudke went to Sarajevo's hospital to visit the victims of the attack. That visit was obviously not scheduled and could not have been planned as a target opportunity by the Serbs. The assassin Gavrilo Princip (Printsip) happened to be standing at the corner where the official motorcade leaving the hospital made an unscheduled turn. Having slowed down to practically a crawl, he rushed to the car and emptied his gun killing not only the Archduke but his wife as well.

If Archduke had been a friend of the Serbs, as you say, he would not have been assassinated because all the Serbs had to do is wait for him to take the throne once Fraz Jospeh II passed away. I also seriously doubt that your friends had Archduke over for kumovi unless they were at the very top of the social pyramid -- royal and government. Maybe the Archduke was passing by some village and was caught in an impromptou moment to be part of some celebration, but that is a coincidence not a pattern.

17 posted on 06/28/2003 6:32:36 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Wow! Thanks, I appreciate your history lesson!
18 posted on 06/28/2003 6:59:02 AM PDT by Incorrigible
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To: kosta50
Thanks for your answer. That's pretty much how I understand it too.

I also seriously doubt that your friends had Archduke over for kumovi unless they were at the very top of the social pyramid -- royal and government.

They were at the very top of the social pyramid and the Archduke was Godfather to my friend's father-in-law in more than just a ceremonial way.

19 posted on 06/29/2003 5:08:25 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Chance Gardner or Bob Roberts?)
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To: getoffmylawn
They were at the very top of the social pyramid and the Archduke was Godfather to my friend's father-in-law in more than just a ceremonial way

Care to share with us precisely who they are?

Ferdinand was not a very popular figure. His political vision of a Tripartite state instead of a Dual Monarchy, with equal rights for Slavs as well as Hungarians and Germans did not sit well with Franz Joseph II, or the establishment in Austria-Hungary.

That did not mean Ferdinand had any special love feelings for the Slavs. He was trying to prevent the outdated Monarchy from falling apart and proposed the unthinkable -- federalization of the state.

He fell into the line of succession by sheer luck, or lack of it. Jospeh's son Rudolf never made it, and Joseph's brother, Ferdinand's father, who would have succeeded Joseph, died prematurely. Ferdinand was not a choice.

He was neither popular with the German or Hungarian people who despised Slavs, nor with his own family. He was therefore a perfect sacrificial lamb for Austria to realize its long-desired goal of eliminating Serbia/Montegro as pro-western obstacles to the energy-rich Berlin-Baghdad axis.

Ferdinand also married a common woman of Slavic ethnicity, Czech (Bohemian) by nationality despite the Emperor's objections. Her father was an equerry, not a very flattering thing for a future empress.

Marrying "below" his status, and a Slav, was in clear violation of rules that any successor of the Habsurbg throne had to be someone from the ruling houses of Europe. The thought of having a commoner and a Slavic Empress in Austria was about as terryfying as having an Arab (Princess Di's last lover) in the Buckingham Palace. Emperor Jospeh II did not attend his wedding.

His children (three of them) were explicitly barred from succeeding their father on a throne, and his wife from sitting with him in the royal box or royal carriage.

The Austrian government was specifically warned that it would not be a good idea for the Archuke to go to Sarajevo by the Serbian ambassador to Vienna, Yovan Yovanovich. The warning was dismissed because Yovanovich was considered a pan-Serb "extremist."

After the assassination and all the outward politically correct outrage and rhetoric about the loss, the murdered couple was burried. Neither Austrian, nor German emperors attended the funeral.

It looked as if the Serbs handed Austria and Germany a perfect solution for eliminating the Serbian roadblock to Baghdad, while ridding the Austrian court of an unawanted successor to the throne.

As it turns out, things are not always what they seem to be.

20 posted on 06/29/2003 9:05:36 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
His political vision of a Tripartite state instead of a Dual Monarchy, with equal rights for Slavs as well as Hungarians and Germans did not sit well with Franz Joseph II, or the establishment in Austria-Hungary.

Nor did it sit well with the Serb nationalist nutcases who offed him rather than see Bosnia's Serbs get too comfortable under the Austro-Hungarian empire and thus undercut efforts to unify the Serbs in one State.

Speaking of nutcases, why don't you help me figure out how Ujedinjenje ili Smirt's goals and methods are any different than those of their ideological descendants in the 1990's - that should be fun.

21 posted on 06/29/2003 9:59:38 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
I am sure you can figure it out yourself. Have fun!
22 posted on 06/29/2003 8:11:07 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Care to share with us precisely who they are?

I'm not very comfortable revealing who this person is, but it's not really all that important. I was just trying to illustrate that I've heard Archduke Ferdinand was a "friend" of the Serbs from a reliable source.

Your remarks don't neccessarily contradict what I've heard and in many ways confirm the story. I suppose what is debatable is the definition of the word "friend".

23 posted on 06/30/2003 6:39:03 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Chance Gardner or Bob Roberts?)
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To: TexConfederate1861
PING, fyi
24 posted on 06/30/2003 10:10:40 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: joan; MadelineZapeezda; kosta50
Sretan Vidovdan to you, too! That is my husband's birthday, and his Serb grandparents and other relatives always thought that made him extra special.
25 posted on 06/30/2003 10:20:13 AM PDT by mountaineer
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To: vooch; Destro; kosta50; bob808; DestroyEraseImprove; Dragonfly; Incorrigible; MarMema; crazykatz; ..
Zoran says that anyone donating $30 or more to Pedal in Peace will get a Pedal in Peace T-Shirt. He expects to have a picture of the T-Shirt on his webpage by tomorrow, but for now, you can see the logo.
26 posted on 06/30/2003 10:53:03 AM PDT by joan
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To: getoffmylawn
I'm not very comfortable revealing who this person is, , but it's not really all that important

Well, it is important because, (1) it is unheard of, and (2) I can not find any reference to the Archudke being related to anyone Serb, because it would place a different spin on a lot of historical and even crucial events.

To Serbs a kum (pronounced as "koom") is someone who sponsors a person at baptism. As such, that person takes upon himself (or herself -- kuma) to make sure the baptised person follows the Orthodox faith faithfully and correctly.

The people on this Forum may not be familiar with the Great Schism in 1054, but ever since then the Roman Catholic Church has officially been considered heretic by the Orthodox Church (which is the only church true to the Micine Creed and unchanged since then), and continues to be such as long as it claims infalability of its patriarch, aka the pope.

By 1914, when Archudke and his wife were murdered, the Roman Catholic Church had still some 76 years to go before it lifted its predicament of heresy on Galilleo Galillei, or 42 years before lifiting the flat earth theory for that matter!

I seriously doubt, therefore, that Franz Ferdinand, a Roman Catholic, was a kum to an Orthodox Serbian child of high-enough standing to be in such company, and I also don't know of any prominent Serbian family members who were Roman Catholic.

This issue is so sensitive that the fact that Serbia's much overrated language "reformer" (bastardizer is a more fitting term), Vuk Stefanovich Karadzhich (yeah, the same Montenegrin clan that Radovan comes from), married a German woman and, completely contrary to the usual habits of his time, crossed over to Roman Catholicism. That fact is kept marginalized to this day in Serbia, especially in view of the fact that Vuk worked very closely with Jernej (Batholomew) Kopitar, a Slovene, naturally Roman Catholic, who was also the Imperial Censor on the Franz Jospeh's court -- dedicated to the Austrian policy of alienating Serbs form their Russian cousins. How? By making Serbian Cyrillic illegible to Russians, which is precisely what Vuk did! Isn't that interesting?

Finally, a kum is considered family, and such an act of closeness to Serbs would have been a well known historical fact, in view of the events that followed.

Your remarks don't neccessarily contradict what I've heard and in many ways confirm the story

What I wrote does not confirm anything about this, shall we say, interesting piece of historical unknown. I was simply reflecting on the fact that was all too well known to the Archduke and that was that by the turn of the century the Slavs constituted betwen 43 and 47 percent of the population of the disintegrating Dual Monarchy.

Archduke was also keenly aware of the fact that the Monarchy was dealt a mortal blow after being defeated by the Prussians and after having lost territory to Italians. The Monarchy was dethorned as a leading German power and was eclipsed by the newly created German Empire that was ethnically more homogenious and united.

Austria's demise by their own kin was only one of many blows to the state and the Habsburg family. Maximillian was shot and killed as a clown-emperor in Mexico. Franz Joseph's youngest brother was unfit for office because he preferred to have "indiscretions" with boys in public baths, and Franz Joseph's only son committed suicide.

Franz Joseph may have been more predisposed to some Slavs, but he was no friend of Serbs. He simply realized that without some type of Slavic backing the Monarchy would not survive.

I would like to repat, therefore, that the alleged kumovanye of Archudke Ferdnand to hig-society Serebs is news to me, and is probably one of the best kept historical secrets, and that my statements about the Austro-Hungarian Empire do not in any way confirm your story.

27 posted on 06/30/2003 3:12:00 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Errata: Franz Joseph may have been more predisposed to some Slavs

Archduke Franz Fedinand vice Franz Joseph.

28 posted on 06/30/2003 3:15:16 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: mountaineer
Thank you. As a matter of some trivia, let me just say that "sretan" is not a correct term, and is usually heard in Croatia where Serbian is used but is not native.

The word is derived from the Serbian word "sretya" (happiness, good luck) where the sufix "-tya" has morphed (by a process known as "yotovanye" or iotization, a common tranformation in Slavic languages) to -cha, similar to the way "tu" morphs into "chu" in the English word -- furniture, which sound like "fer-ni-chur."

The correct term then is srechan or srechni and not sretan.

Srechno,

Kosta

29 posted on 06/30/2003 3:26:23 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Hubby's Serb relatives are from what is now Croatia, thus my having been taught that term! Hvala!
30 posted on 06/30/2003 3:33:35 PM PDT by mountaineer
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To: kosta50
I see your point.

Please give me some time to get the "okay" to reveal the names. Although this information wasn't given to me in the "strictest of confideneses", I'm not quick to reveal my sources if I feel anybody could be hurt other than myself by my lipping off.

31 posted on 07/01/2003 4:22:21 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Chance Gardner or Bob Roberts?)
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To: getoffmylawn
Fair enough. No need to hurt or needlessly expose anyone.
32 posted on 07/01/2003 3:44:01 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: getoffmylawn; pickindim; vooch; Destro; DTA; bob808; kosta50; Incorrigible; katnip; mountaineer; ...
Zoran says to inform y'all that the T-Shirts are now selling for $15, and he is trying to sell the rest, about 85, before he leaves for the Balkans later this month.

http://www.pedalinpeace.org/

Here he is modeling the T-Shirt at a Vidovdan celebration:


33 posted on 07/16/2003 11:59:14 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
bump
34 posted on 07/17/2003 6:11:05 AM PDT by katnip
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To: getoffmylawn; getgoing; MarMema; vooch; pickindim; Destro; DTA; bob808; kosta50; Incorrigible; ...
Zoran is making a last minute appeal as he prepares to leave for the Balkans in a few days:

Tell everyone I am selling T-Shirts for $12 and you can go onto my site to donate today or tommorow (mon/tue) via PayPal or Active.com through links on my site. I have less than 40 shirts for this collectors edition T-Shirt.

Thanks/Pozdrav!

http://www.pedalinpeace.org/


35 posted on 07/28/2003 11:20:25 AM PDT by joan
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