Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots
NY Times ^ | July 1, 2003 | NICHOLAS WADE

Posted on 07/01/2003 5:48:39 AM PDT by Pharmboy

In November 1897, in a field near the village of Coligny in eastern France, a local inhabitant unearthed two strange objects.

One was an imposing statue of Mars, the Roman god of war. The other was an ancient bronze tablet, 5 feet wide and 3.5 feet high. It bore numerals in Roman but the words were in Gaulish, the extinct version of Celtic spoken by the inhabitants of France before the Roman conquest in the first century B.C.

The tablet, now known as the Coligny calendar, turned out to record the Celtic system of measuring time, as well as being one of the most important sources of Gaulish words.

Two researchers, Dr. Peter Forster of the University of Cambridge in England and Dr. Alfred Toth of the University of Zurich, have now used the calendar and other Celtic inscriptions to reconstruct the history of Celtic and its position in the Indo-European family of languages.

They say that Celtic became a distinct language and entered the British Isles much earlier than supposed.

Though the Gauls were strong enough to sack Rome in 390 B.C., eventually the empire struck back. The Romans defeated the Celts, both in France and in Britain, so decisively that Latin and its successor languages displaced Celtic over much of its former territory. In the British Isles, Celtic speakers survived in two main groups: the Goidelic branch of Celtic, which includes Irish and Scots Gaelic, and the Brythonic branch, formed of Welsh and Breton, a Celtic tongue carried to Brittany in France by emigrants from Cornwall.

Because languages change so fast, historical linguists distrust language trees that go back more than a few thousand years. Dr. Forster, a geneticist, has developed a new method for relating a group of languages, basing it on the tree-drawing techniques used to trace the evolutionary relationships among genes. His method works on just a handful of words, a fortunate circumstance since only some 30 Gaulish words have known counterparts in all the other languages under study.

Dr. Forster and his linguist colleague Dr. Toth have used the method to draw up a tree relating the various branches of Celtic to one another and to other Indo-European languages like English, French, Spanish, Latin and Greek. In an article in today's issue of The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, they say that soon after the ancestral Indo-European language arrived in Europe it split into different branches leading to Celtic, Latin, Greek and English.

Within Celtic, their tree shows that Gaulish — the continental version of the language — separated from its Goidelic and Brythonic cousins, much as might be expected from the facts of geography.

The researchers' method even dates the fork points in their language tree, although the dates have a wide range of possibility. The initial splitting of Indo-European in Europe occurred around 8100 B.C., give or take 1,900 years, and the divergence between the continental and British versions of Gaelic took place in 3200 B.C., plus or minus 1,500 years, they calculate.

These dates are much earlier than previously estimated. "The traditional date of the Indo-European family has been 4000 BC for some time," Dr. Merritt Ruhlen of Stanford University said. Dr. Ruhlen said the new method "seems pretty reasonable" and should be useful in tracing back the earlier history of the Indo-European language.

Specialists have long debated which country was the homeland of the Indo-Europeans and whether their language was spread by conquest or because its speakers were the first farmers whose methods and tongue were adopted by other populations. The second theory, that of spread by agriculture, has been advocated by Dr. Colin Renfrew, a Cambridge archaeologist.

Dr. Forster, who works in Dr. Renfrew's institute, said in an interview that the suggested date 8100 B.C. for the arrival of Indo-European in Europe "does seem to vindicate Renfrew's archaeological idea that the Indo-European languages were spread by farmers."

Agriculture started to arrive in Europe from the Near East around 6000 B.C., much earlier than the traditional date proposed by linguists for the spread of Indo-European. This timing would fit with the lower end of Dr. Forster's range of dates.

Dr. Forster said that his estimated date of 3200 B.C. for the arrival of Celtic speakers in England and Ireland was also much earlier than the usual date, 600 B.C., posited on the basis of archaeological evidence.

Dr. Forster said his method of comparing groups of languages was unfamiliar to historical linguists, many of whom study how words in a single language have changed over time. Asked what linguists thought of his method he said: "To be honest, they don't understand it, most of them. They don't even know what I'm talking about."

The method has two parts. One is to draw a tree on the basis of carefully chosen words; the second is to date the splits in the tree by calibrating them with known historical events. This is similar to the way geneticists date their evolutionary trees by tying one or more branch points to known dates from the fossil record.

Dr. April McMahon, a linguist at the University of Sheffield in England, said that Dr. Forster's method "seems to me to be a good start" and that it was reasonable to base a language family tree on just a handful of well-chosen words. She had less confidence in the dating method, she said, because language changes in an irregular way based on social factors like the size of the speaker's group and its degree of contact with others.

Geneticists often assume that the rate of mutation will average out over time, so that if one or two branch points in a tree can be dated by fossil evidence, the timing of the other branch points can be inferred.

Dr. Forster says he assumes that the rate of language change can also be averaged over time. But Dr. McMahon says she thinks that historical time, being much shorter than evolutionary time, is less friendly to averaging and that linguists should not even try, at least yet, to put dates on language trees.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: anthropology; archaeoastronomy; archaeology; celts; epigraphyandlanguage; europe; french; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; irish; language; megaliths
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-189 next last
Asked what linguists thought of his method he said: "To be honest, they don't understand it, most of them. They don't even know what I'm talking about."

This guy must treat his undergraduate students very well (snicker).

1 posted on 07/01/2003 5:48:40 AM PDT by Pharmboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry; aculeus; blam; jennyp; thefactor
Top-o-the-mornin' ping to ya...
2 posted on 07/01/2003 5:51:26 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
The article raises an interesting point: most people assume that languages spread by conquest, but that doesn't seem to hold so well.

The Romans conquered the Greeks, but the Greeks still speak Greek and probably more Romans learned Greek than Greeks learned Latin.

Likewise, the Gauls maintained their language for centuries after Caesar's conquest, but lost it after they successfully conquered back territory.

The Germanic Franks conquered Romanized Gaul, but wound up speaking a language more Roman than German.

3 posted on 07/01/2003 5:58:08 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
Excellent points (as Carson used to say "I did not know that..."). I know a bit about biology, but not much on linguistics, though I find it fascinating. Any more insights or examples you can offer would always be appreciated on any of my athropology-related threads.
4 posted on 07/01/2003 6:01:53 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
they say that soon after the ancestral Indo-European language arrived in Europe it split into different branches leading to Celtic, Latin, Greek and English.

Someone is a moron. Probably the journalist. English is a Germanic language, with heavy influence from French (a Romance language, based on Latin). It is a staggering mistake to say that English is one of 4 early offshoots from the ancestral Indo-European language.

5 posted on 07/01/2003 6:03:30 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
However, some languages are replaced. Celtic was largely replaced by Anglo Saxon. Aztec by Spanish. English will be replaced by Spanish in the USA.
6 posted on 07/01/2003 6:08:34 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
Good pick-up. I missed that completely; and, of course you are CORRECTAMUNDO!
7 posted on 07/01/2003 6:10:57 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Did they find an ancient basketball? When were the Celtics in France I thought the were always in Boston? The NBA really goes back further than I thought.
8 posted on 07/01/2003 6:12:03 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (Read Buddy's, (the labrador retriever), new book about the Clintons, "Living Hell")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
I know you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek to make a point, but you raise another issue: has English EVER been replaced ANYWHERE as a language?
9 posted on 07/01/2003 6:12:18 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
the reason the greeks still speak greek is that they never sacked rome. The Celts and the Carthaginians did and the former were decimated and the latters were "delenda est".
10 posted on 07/01/2003 6:14:00 AM PDT by epluribus_2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Flurry
LOL!! They must have had an ancient Euro-league with the LXXVIs!
11 posted on 07/01/2003 6:14:15 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
"...It is a staggering mistake to say that English is one of 4 early offshoots from the ancestral Indo-European language...."

It is a staggering mistake to say that the author suggested that. Rather, he states that the early Indo-European language split eventually LED to English, not that English developed at the time of the split.
12 posted on 07/01/2003 6:15:09 AM PDT by irish_links
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
I guess we can no longer claim round ball to be American. Oh well so much for history.
13 posted on 07/01/2003 6:15:38 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (Read Buddy's, (the labrador retriever), new book about the Clintons, "Living Hell")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Does this mean we qualify for reparations, or at least affirmative action considerations?
14 posted on 07/01/2003 6:17:37 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlatinroot.html
15 posted on 07/01/2003 6:19:18 AM PDT by glock rocks (Remember -- only you can prevent fundraisers ... become a monthly donor.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Upon closer examination, the NY Times reporter was found to have blonde roots.
16 posted on 07/01/2003 6:22:10 AM PDT by TommyDale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
One of the reasons English has not been replaced is that it is so adaptable. It just absorbs vocabulary from people who use it instead of trying to legistate out foreign influences like the French try to do with English.
17 posted on 07/01/2003 6:22:44 AM PDT by twigs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Prof Engineer
ping
18 posted on 07/01/2003 6:22:44 AM PDT by msdrby (I do believe the cheese slid off his cracker! - The Green Mile)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: twigs
legistate = legislate
19 posted on 07/01/2003 6:23:36 AM PDT by twigs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
>>>I know you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek to make a point, but you raise another issue: has English EVER been replaced ANYWHERE as a language? <<<

Sure lots of places, according to other threads here on FR.

Miami
New York City
South Texas
Southern California
Westmount (Anglo Suburb of Montreal)

I'm sure I've missed a few.

Adios. Vaya Con Dios. Hasta la vista.
20 posted on 07/01/2003 6:25:16 AM PDT by MalcolmS (Do Not Remove This Tagline Under Penalty Of Law!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
This guy must treat his undergraduate students very well (snicker).

Sounds as though he was just making a statement of fact. He didn't call the other linguists a bunch of ignorant monkeys.
21 posted on 07/01/2003 6:26:28 AM PDT by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MalcolmS
But serially, you do nmention Montreal; that is one real example.
22 posted on 07/01/2003 6:28:28 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: aruanan
Well, mebbe; but he COULD have been a bit more...how shall we say...respectful of other disciplines' point of view? It just struck me as a bit harsh...and, the sonofagun may not even be RIGHT!
23 posted on 07/01/2003 6:30:31 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Interesting. Although I clicked on this expecting find a story about Larry Bird on some sort of mind-altering drug...
24 posted on 07/01/2003 6:32:12 AM PDT by NittanyLion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
This whole thing is really dubious. Accounts of the Milesian conquest of Ireland and the archeological evidence of the prior occupants place the arrival of the Celts well inside the first millenium BC. Put that up against 30 words? I don't think so. Furthermore, the migration of the Celts from Scythia through the Mediterranean, Egypt, Rome (where their presence is documented) through to Galicia in Spain and on to Ireland is pretty compelling.
25 posted on 07/01/2003 6:33:47 AM PDT by Nubbytwanger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: msdrby
ping
26 posted on 07/01/2003 6:33:49 AM PDT by Prof Engineer ( Texans don't even care where Europe is on the map.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
"Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots"

When reached for comment, the Rev. Jessie Jackson stated:

"Like all blond caucasoid claims, no matter how much they claim otherwise, their roots are still black. The Celtics are a bunch of peroxide phonies."
27 posted on 07/01/2003 6:34:36 AM PDT by Bluntpoint
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: irish_links
It is a staggering mistake to say that the author suggested that.

I understand what the author intended, but the formation of that sentence is poor. If I state that Blues has had a wide influence in modern music, leading to Jazz, Rhythm and Blues, Rock and Roll and Duran Duran … this statement is not incorrect, but don’t you think “Duran Duran” is a little out of place?

Duran Duran does not represent a major branch of modern music. English is not a major language family. But I believe Greek, Latin, and Celtic are considered major language families. It's just awkward to make English a fourth "example".

28 posted on 07/01/2003 6:37:54 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
I'm not sure the journalist said "English is one of four early offshoots"; what he said was that "the ancestral Indo-European language... split into different branches leading to Celtic, Latin, Greek, and English," and presumably to German, Flemish, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc. etc.

There is a difference.

29 posted on 07/01/2003 6:40:08 AM PDT by Redbob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots


30 posted on 07/01/2003 6:46:36 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: irish_links
Don't worry about it. It is an article in the New York Times. You expect too much from this reporter. Maybe the reporter is not a native English speaker (due to affirmative action at the slimes). To expect correct and clearly understandable sentence structure and grammer is racist.

</sarcasm>
31 posted on 07/01/2003 6:50:49 AM PDT by NotQuiteCricket (flexstand.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: glock rocks
The domestication of the horse or the invention of the wheeled ox cart may have triggered the great expansion of the Indo-European languages.

The Dallas-Fort Worth airport triggered the great expansion of the word 'y'all'.

32 posted on 07/01/2003 6:52:07 AM PDT by Slyfox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Redbob
Yes, but for someone not familiar with some of the basics associated with the origins of the major world languages (not us, but others, of course), the sentence was dreadfully constructed, ambiguous and misleading.
33 posted on 07/01/2003 6:52:36 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Handy Latin Phrases
34 posted on 07/01/2003 6:55:26 AM PDT by Slyfox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
English is not a major language family. But I believe Greek, Latin, and Celtic are considered major language families.

I don't think Greek is a major language family either, but it is interesting to note the importance of the latter three of the four. At some point in history, each of those three languages has served as a lingua franca to a greater or lesser degree. Before the Roman Empire, anyone with a working knowledge of Greek could do business in any of a hundred port towns or trading communities from Tarshish to Tashkent.

Later, Latin served the same function over an even broader geographical range, being used by the Church long after the Roman Empire had been replaced by the Holy Roman Empire.

Today, English is the language of world communications and commerce. Though the World Wide Web spans the globe, well over 90 percent of its content is in English.

I don't know if Celtic ever served as a trade language across cultural boundaries, although it might make for some interesting study. It may be too remote in time to draw any meaningful conclusions.

35 posted on 07/01/2003 6:57:38 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
has English EVER been replaced ANYWHERE as a language?

Miami.

36 posted on 07/01/2003 6:58:51 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Well in this case he is probably correct. It is hardly surprising that a vast majority of linguists would have absolutely no clue about techniques used in evolutionary genetics. In fact, there are other area of science where these techniques would be quite foreign as well.

As a geneticist I obviously applaud the application.
37 posted on 07/01/2003 7:00:37 AM PDT by rod1 (On the front line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nubbytwanger
Clearly the Milesians made use of the existing stock of Gaelic speaking womenfolk in Ireland. The result was the development of a creole language with elements of both, and possibly more elements from the mothers than from the fathers (the mothers being the children's first language teachers).

In any case, no one has ever credited the Milesians with having imposed their language on the Irish, just their rule! This is typical of many conquest situations.

I am not sure why you want the Milesians to come from Galicia (in Anatolia) when it is clear that both the Milesians and the Galicians both came from the same location further West, mainly what we now call Bulgaria and possibly even Ukraine. The blind poet Homer pretty well covered the destruction of the Milesian colony at Illium (Allium) by the more primitive Greeks. That Scythians adopted Celtic culture, weapons and words is beyond dispute. It is an ironclad rule that those who are less technologically developed obtain both the devices and the words from those with the more advanced technology.

The library at Ebla, which provided us with our first historic (and non-Biblical) references to King David also provided us with messages from Celtic kings in the near Middle East to each other and to the folks at Ebla. They were written in a Celtic language.

38 posted on 07/01/2003 7:01:47 AM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: glock rocks
Great link--thanks.
39 posted on 07/01/2003 7:02:14 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
Ignorant I yam...who the heck were the Milesians? Sounds like a group from Star Trek...could you provide a few good/great links?
40 posted on 07/01/2003 7:05:22 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin
*ping*

Thought this might interest you. You and I exchanged posts about an item that is in this article.
41 posted on 07/01/2003 7:05:32 AM PDT by CaptRon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
English is not a major language family. But I believe Greek, Latin, and Celtic are considered major language families. It's just awkward to make English a fourth "example".

You're right. It's probably just another example of a NYT reporter condescending to American readers.
42 posted on 07/01/2003 7:07:17 AM PDT by irish_links
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
It is a staggering mistake to say that English is one of 4 early offshoots from the ancestral Indo-European language.

Neither the article nor your quoted phrase say this, either.

43 posted on 07/01/2003 7:08:03 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
SPOTREP
44 posted on 07/01/2003 7:16:04 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Amelia
Genealogy ping.
45 posted on 07/01/2003 7:19:06 AM PDT by Scenic Sounds (Summertime!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
The salt water flooding of the previously fresh water Black Sea in 5,600BC caused the proto-Celtics living there to migrate up the river valleys all over Europe, bringing farming and their language with them.
46 posted on 07/01/2003 7:26:09 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
And we defeated Mexico, but we are going to end up speaking mexican for sure!!
47 posted on 07/01/2003 7:29:33 AM PDT by unread
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
"does seem to vindicate Renfrew's archaeological idea that the Indo-European languages were spread by farmers."

The value of farmers' daughters...just talking about them spread language.

A tour of really old Europe would be a time tripper's dream.

Think of the skiing with all those newly melting glaciers. Picnics in newly flowered glens...hunting big and dangerous game for campfire feasts and jerky...bathing in snowmelt...urine tanned skins for clothing and bedding...being guests of honor with new maiden brides (small petite to say the least) at every village - if one were not murdered or killed in jealous challenges by fearfully superstitious people.

For selective breeding opportunities, at least I'm 186cm tall at 110Kg., 150cm at the shoulder, and with my all my teeth, but no tattoos. Yes, I'd carry a rifle with brass, primer, American know how & Gore-Tex gear and Mg fire starters, spices, my glasses, and rock hammer, blade and saw. In deep prehistory, modern man needs his accrutrements. {8^)

The D-2 steel, fire stick, black powder, and fire rendered liquid metal sorcerer, father of giants for those tiny maidens not killed by childbirth. The death rate of beautiful young children would have me long for the bitching about high priced, modern medicine and those rich doctors and drug companies. Who would not be king...

That human life progressed at all from melt to melt to "global warming" is a miracle.

It makes me long to visit earlier inter-glacial and full glacial periods before our trace of pre-history could begin. To visit humans of 1,000 to 25,000 generations ago would be as awesome as dangerous. Would there be blonds and redheads? Available? Central governments promoting sodomy? Plastic? Unlikely because plastic has never been found, surely lasting thousands of human generations. Was agriculture "remembered" 8,000 years ago from survivors of those deep, now dark days - too often frozen out and killed off during climate change survival migrations as tribe after tribe fought their way into occupied unfrozen lands such as those still contested by cousin Jews and Arabs?

48 posted on 07/01/2003 7:33:10 AM PDT by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
He is certainly a cunning linguist.
49 posted on 07/01/2003 7:37:54 AM PDT by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
>>>But serially, you do nmention Montreal; that is one real example. <<<

I knew if I tried I might get one right.

Actually, if you look closely, you will see that English is being replaced in your post with another, yet to be determined, language. (I know whereof I speak, it happens to me all the time--must be a bug somewhere in the server.)
50 posted on 07/01/2003 7:40:45 AM PDT by MalcolmS (Do Not Remove This Tagline Under Penalty Of Law!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-189 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson