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Rules of Engagement in Iraq Threaten Army Troops
StrategyPage.com ^

Posted on 07/08/2003 2:39:00 PM PDT by overtaxed_canadian

LEADERSHIP: Rules of Engagement in Iraq Threaten Army Troops

July 8, 2003: Marine and Army troops in Iraq are upset over Rules of Engagement (ROEs) being implemented by Army commanders. While Marines are allowed to carry their weapons, both rifles and machine-guns, ready to use, Army units, especially non-combat ones (including Military Police) are being increasingly restrictive rules regarding the use and handling of weapons. Unlike the Marines, Army convoys do not display any weapons, making it appear as if the convoy is unarmed. For the Marines, this is madness. Marine convoys bristle with weapons, making it clear what will happen if anyone should be so foolish as to attack them. Army MPs are under orders not to handle their machine-guns while on roadblock duty unless they received orders from their headquarters. Army troops are allowed to carry only two M-16 magazines, the rest being kept locked up. Marines are incredulous when they encounter this. Since Marines and Army troops control adjacent sectors, there is ample opportunities for troops from the two services to run into each other and compare notes. It has not gone unnoticed by American troops, or the Iraqis that are attacking them, that nearly all the Americans attacked are Army troops. The Army ROEs tell the Iraqis that Army troops are an easier targets, equipped with an ROE that also serves as a virtual placard saying "shoot me, I have a hard time shooting back."


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: army; iraq; marines; rebuildingiraq; rulesofengagement; typicalarmymadness; weaponsnoberetsyes
WTF is going on over there? This is insanity.
1 posted on 07/08/2003 2:39:01 PM PDT by overtaxed_canadian
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2 posted on 07/08/2003 2:40:48 PM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
As drudge says, send jenna bush...
3 posted on 07/08/2003 2:45:20 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
Let me explain: We are not a country of Men anymore rather we are a nation of eunichs and feminazies. Guns are bad, they frighten people and make us seem billeigerent and smallminded....or something like that.....
4 posted on 07/08/2003 2:46:28 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: TalBlack
While we are at it we should paint all of our military vehicles a nice friendly shade of pink.
5 posted on 07/08/2003 2:51:10 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
>It has not gone unnoticed by American troops, or the Iraqis that are attacking them, that nearly all the Americans attacked are Army troops

We have a "free" press.
This strikes me as darn big news.
Why isn't this crap

headlines on Newsweek,
instead of that gay marriage
garbage?! Free press?! GAaak!

6 posted on 07/08/2003 2:51:32 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: overtaxed_canadian

So THAT'S it!

That's correct. Very few Marines have been killed since the end of land combat.

I cannot f*%king believe that we are using that kind of restrictive ROE. This must change. Rumsfeld himself has to make this change, immediately if not sooner, or resign.

This is an outrage.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

7 posted on 07/08/2003 2:52:06 PM PDT by section9 (Major Motoko Kusanagi just killed Barney....)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
"Army convoys do not display any weapons"

Wonderful, my son is on convoy duty - he travels between Kuwait and Nasiryah. Orginally he had a .50 cal machine gun.

So how does that go? When guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have guns!!


8 posted on 07/08/2003 2:53:47 PM PDT by BeAllYouCanBe (Maybe this "Army Of One" is a good thing - You Gotta Admire the 3rd Infantry Accomplishments)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
>Unlike the Marines, Army convoys do not display any weapons... Marine convoys bristle with weapons...

Fire whomever
is in charge of the Army.
Promote the Marine...

9 posted on 07/08/2003 2:53:58 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: overtaxed_canadian
Typical Army BS. I read the entire article. Our troops are being shot at and executed, and these aholes up the ladder are concerned about 5 o'clock shadows, and keeping the Troops in short supply of AMMO!

It is an outrage and they must be out of their effing minds. They are going to have some serious problems with retention after this crap. It is really pissing me off.
10 posted on 07/08/2003 2:56:01 PM PDT by Radix
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To: overtaxed_canadian
It gives me no pleasure to say that I'm not surprised at all. Very reminiscent of the ROE in Lebanon, '83.
11 posted on 07/08/2003 2:56:34 PM PDT by squidly
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To: overtaxed_canadian
We don't want to do anything to scare the Religion of Peace folks. They are frightened by guns.
12 posted on 07/08/2003 2:57:23 PM PDT by Courier (Quick: Name one good thing about the Saudis.)
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To: theFIRMbss
ROE This sounds all too familiar. During my stint in the gulf, they didn't want us to carry weapons outside of U.S. controled areas. Also the Host Nation defined what our restricted areas were. Sometimes the military is prone to pander to politics. This is why I back the man who says "bring 'em on".
13 posted on 07/08/2003 3:01:22 PM PDT by WIGGY
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To: Courier
"Religion of Peace folks. They are frightened by guns"

Right on! They like strapping on explosives to their women.
14 posted on 07/08/2003 3:02:51 PM PDT by BeAllYouCanBe (Maybe this "Army Of One" is a good thing - You Gotta Admire the 3rd Infantry Accomplishments)
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To: overtaxed_canadian
yes, and while we are at it, they should not be called "soldiers" lest some more of those sensitive arabs be offended. They should be called "uniformed assistants." Female soldiers are of course to be called "non-male uniformed assistants."
15 posted on 07/08/2003 3:06:14 PM PDT by rageaholic
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To: overtaxed_canadian
This sh** has to cease, sounds like Bosnia, our troops in Baghdad are targets of opportunity, sending them downtown milling with the populous is insane. My son says every day is like the movie Ground Hog day, a lot of people have had good intentions, but have no common sense. The expected outcome did not happen, I know the country is swarming with special ops let them do their job and reinforce them as needed. I am troubled (a Daschileism) about this continuing loss of life, and limiting their self defense by rules of engagement that only apply to us is insane.
16 posted on 07/08/2003 3:09:02 PM PDT by boomop1
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To: overtaxed_canadian
The Marines learned the hard way in Beruit Lebanon that carrying unloaded weapons was worse than useless. The Army is now re-learning that same lesson, one brave Soldier at a time.
17 posted on 07/08/2003 3:10:59 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
You cynic you.

They only do that because it really extenuates the female figure under the chador/abaya.

Didn't you get the "Religion of Peace" memo?
18 posted on 07/08/2003 3:14:24 PM PDT by Courier (Quick: Name one good thing about the Saudis.)
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To: All
I don't buy this at all...in fact my hubby promised to try to call me tonight..and I will ask him....as far as the convoy..that is not true....hubby has been on several and vehicles have been well armed.
19 posted on 07/08/2003 3:15:02 PM PDT by mystery-ak (The War is not over for me until my hubby's boots hit U.S. soil.)
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
I think these peacekeepers should put signs on their vehicles, "Don't shoot, I am unarmed". The army officers that have set up these rules of engagement should be busted lower than E-2. I am not too sure these rules weren't set up from the highest echelons, maybe even the White House.

Rumsfeld has never pulled any line duty and I doubt if anyone else has in the cabinet. Part of the spectacle we see now in Iraq is the inexperience of air force hot-shots even knowing the basics of ground warfare. We keep tinkering with more and more expensive toys in the air force and do not even know how to take ground and hold it.

20 posted on 07/08/2003 3:22:07 PM PDT by meenie
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To: overtaxed_canadian
Shades of Vietnam, stupid rules of engagement. Remember the vietcong running into rubber tree plantations because for a time Americans were under orders not to fire into the rubber trees? Or they would run into Cambodia, also 'off limits' to U.S. troops. It's time to leave Iraq now anyway - Saddam & the Saddamites aren't coming back, and the spec ops swarming all over Iraq will keep an eye on any further developments. Those ungrateful sub-species of humans aren't worth another drop of American blood.
21 posted on 07/08/2003 3:26:30 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: section9
And I thought the Generals were running this thing.

Reminds me of Korea and Vietnam when the libs were running the war from DC, and tying the Generals arm behind them.

22 posted on 07/08/2003 3:32:40 PM PDT by oldtimer
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To: oldtimer
Sounds like the generals are running it, if Marine and Army ROE are different.
23 posted on 07/08/2003 3:35:58 PM PDT by squidly
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To: fooman
"As drudge says, send jenna bush..."

Didn't know he said it.
Glad to hear it. I said they should send those two at the outset. The war would be waged very differently when it was mine instead of thine.

Lots who weren't against are now. The Pols are feeling no pain over all this.


24 posted on 07/08/2003 3:41:54 PM PDT by Spirited
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To: fooman
"As drudge says, send jenna bush..."

Didn't know he said it.
Glad to hear it. I said they should send those two at the outset. The war would be waged very differently when it was mine instead of thine.

Lots who weren't against are now. The Pols are feeling no pain over all this. It's just the blood/lives of others.


25 posted on 07/08/2003 3:42:49 PM PDT by Spirited
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To: meenie
Rummy was in the Navy.
26 posted on 07/08/2003 3:45:12 PM PDT by mystery-ak (The War is not over for me until my hubby's boots hit U.S. soil.)
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To: Courier
Make them more frightened; much more!
27 posted on 07/08/2003 3:48:18 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: Spirited
I am for the war in Iraq, but not liberia and not stupid ROE.

Also we should quickly set up local governnors and mayors and have armed iraq's patroling the pipelines.

We should have roughnecks and locals working 24x7 to get the country pumping oil.
28 posted on 07/08/2003 3:53:03 PM PDT by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: mystery-ak
I don't buy this at all...in fact my hubby promised to try to call me tonight..and I will ask him....as far as the convoy..that is not true....hubby has been on several and vehicles have been well armed.

BUMP!

29 posted on 07/08/2003 4:21:58 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: WIGGY
I had to literally steal ammunition for my soldiers, in order to be armed and ready, during both Operations Desert Storm (Saudi/Kuwait/Iraq) and Restore Hope (Somalia).

I was in command of a very small detachment that roamed far and wide on the battlefield, and I'd be damned if I or my men and women be left defenseless.

Don't make me the Secretary of the Army; I'd issue every soldier an M16 and 120 rounds the day they completed Advanced Individual Training, and require them to hold on to the weapon as long as they stayed in the Army. Complete 10 years of service, and the weapon is yours for cost. Complete 20 years, and the weapon is yours for free.

30 posted on 07/08/2003 4:29:23 PM PDT by ReaganCowboy
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To: overtaxed_canadian
You believe everything you read?
31 posted on 07/08/2003 4:37:54 PM PDT by verity
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To: mystery-ak
hubby promised to try to call me tonight..and I will ask him....

Please let us know what he says if he gets through to you. I have to say like you I think this story is questionable to say the least. So many are quick to believe anything they read in the news still after what we know to be true about CNN, NYT's and other liars.....

32 posted on 07/08/2003 4:44:30 PM PDT by Terp (Retired US Navy now living in Philippines were the Moutains meet the Sea in the Land of Smiles)
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To: meenie
Rummy is a Navy guy, and no way he knows about this. When he does (and he will, trust me), all hell is going to break loose, and those clintonian leftovers will go away.

And the Army will be left to fight as they see fit.

As they want.
33 posted on 07/08/2003 5:01:46 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (huh.)
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To: MonroeDNA
Whatever armchair General imposed this, will be strung up by Rummy.
34 posted on 07/08/2003 5:03:20 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (huh.)
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To: ReaganCowboy
How many rounds does a typical M-16 military magazine contain? How many magazines does a typical soldier on patrol carry (including the one in the weapon)?
35 posted on 07/08/2003 5:10:09 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: overtaxed_canadian
Insanity indeed! BTT
36 posted on 07/08/2003 5:16:52 PM PDT by XHogPilot
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To: Radix
it was the same way in nam in 70 & 71..i was in phu bia with the 101st , there wa a village (very small) 500 meters or so off our perimeter, itwas called a friendly fire zone..unless we were engaged, we had to call for permission to engage them even if they had set off trip flares in our wire......

this is stupid and will get lots of young men killed....."pc" is getting young men killed.......so very, very sad

37 posted on 07/08/2003 5:17:05 PM PDT by cajun-jack
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To: Terp
Im gonna ask him alright..he's about to move his other company, by convoy, up to Balad with his other company....he told me the first time that he checked to see if all the weapons were mounted properly and test fired.
38 posted on 07/08/2003 5:25:36 PM PDT by mystery-ak (The War is not over for me until my hubby's boots hit U.S. soil.)
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To: ARCADIA
...with a big red bulls-eye while we're at it.
39 posted on 07/08/2003 7:13:51 PM PDT by dr_who_2
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To: overtaxed_canadian
Three months of BS from the mainstream DNC PR agents and Freepers are ready to fire RUMMY??? What the H?

Somebody forgot to tell these guys:

Mass Reenlistment Marks July 4th Celebration in Baghdad [Morale at bottom? Bunk.]
DoD ^ | July 5, 2003 | U.S. Army Pfc. James Matise / 101st Airborne Division

As for "massive casualties":

There were more US casualties in one Chicago porch accident  last week (13 fatalities and at least 57 wounded)  than we had US casualties across all of Iraq during the two weeks of a Operation Scorpion, a major campaign to root out some really bad guys - June 15-June 29.

 
Out of ~146,000 troops in Iraq, our US troops suffered 7 fatalities due to hostile fire. 2 unknown - missing troops recovered - foul play presumed. 3 non-hostile (unspecified) fatalities.
1 fatality and 2 wounded in vehicle accident responding to Marines who were engaged by hostile forces...for a total of 33 total casualties across a nation the size of California w/ a population of ~ 24 million: 13 total fatalities, 20 wounded.
 
And look what the troops involved in Operation Scorpion alone accomplished:
 
***During Operation Desert Scorpion which lasted from June 15 to June 29, the 4th Infantry Division and the 1st Armored Division conducted multiple raids resulting in 1,330 individuals being detained. Confiscated weapons include 497 AK-47s, 235 hand grenades, 124 rocket-propelled grenades, 22 machine guns, 130 pistols and 100 rifles and 8,122 rounds of ammunition. The division also confiscated $9,463,000 in U.S. dollars, 1,557,000,000 in Iraqi Dinars, 1,071 bars of gold and 52 vehicles.***  Link

Our troops rock!

Yet every day during three major, aggressive operations in June - when our guys were intentionally drawing enemy fire to root out the bad guys (and taking 'em out!), the press treated our awesome warriors as some poor victim dupes of an incompetent administration. Bunk! The press couldn't be more wrong - or more damn insulting!
 
Our troops, our military leaders - and our CIC deserve better from the press.

If someone in the Army is giving the command NOT to travel with weapons showing, it did not come from the top.

40 posted on 07/08/2003 7:30:32 PM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (We're in a global war on terrorism..If you want to call that a quagmire, do it. I don't.*Rummy* 6-30)
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To: mystery-ak
Yes, I am having a hard time reading this as well, my husband has spoke of wanting to shoot back while on a convoy, but the only thing keeping them from doing so is that someone will fire one or two shots off and hide (or run) like a coward, and what mainly keeps them from shooting back is they are unsure of where it actually came from, not because they aren't allowed to have guns or because of no ammo. I wonder if it isn't a company or one of the divisions doing this, because it doesn't seem like it could be "army wide".
41 posted on 07/08/2003 8:05:00 PM PDT by KineticKitty
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To: KineticKitty; Terp
Mike(hubby) just called from Kuwait, he's back from Balad and preparing to take his other Co up in the very near future.....his weapons on the convoy include: automatic weapons(SAWS),50 Cals, grenade launchers, and M16's sticking out of every window....every GI is issued the basic load of 3 magazines and re-supplied when needed......
42 posted on 07/08/2003 8:41:33 PM PDT by mystery-ak (The War is not over for me until my hubby's boots hit U.S. soil.)
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To: mystery-ak
Colonel Hunt was saying something about this on Bill O'Reilly about this tonight. I just got bits and pieces of it. I will see if I can find the transcript.
43 posted on 07/08/2003 9:13:43 PM PDT by TexKat
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To: mystery-ak
This "story" smacks of the "only one MRE a day" crap we heard at the start of Operation IF. Obviously, if the Army has one set of ROE, and the Marines have another, then ROE isn't being dictated from the top. There are some force protection issues (like convoys escorted by armored vehicles) that need to be addressed (as they were in other conflicts), and the GIs need to learn that they have to be on guard (but not trigger-happy) in dealing with the locals. I like what their doing offering rewards for turning in enemy combatants. Fight Saddam's blood money (for killing Americans) with some of our own.
44 posted on 07/08/2003 9:22:36 PM PDT by pawdoggie
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To: pawdoggie
>Obviously, if the Army has one set of ROE, and the Marines have another, then ROE isn't being dictated from the top

I thought about this
last night, and I wondered if
political types

who have managed to
take charge of the Army might
purposefully put

engagement tactics
in place which cause GI deaths
because it makes Bush

look bad when the press
reports just the deaths, not the
overall context...

Are some branches of
the military
run by
political blocs

directly controlled
by 'Rats, and others controlled
by Republicans?

45 posted on 07/09/2003 7:13:22 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: 1rudeboy
Standard for the M16 is the 30 round magazine. Basic load is 7 mags; 1 in the weapon, and 6 on the soldier. Total of 240 rounds.

That's not to discuss the better ideas of a: not putting in more than about 28 rounds to minimize the odds of full mags jamming due to max spring compression, or b: making the first couple of rounds in the mag tracer (so that when you're about to run dry, you see the tracers).

Additionally, understand that some folks carry more either due to SOP (standard operating procedures), or because they figure it's cheap insurance.

Additionally: any patrol will have SAWs (5.56 mm Squad Automatic Weapons) and M203 grenade launchers with them..

If they're vehicle mounted, they'll also have crew served weapons: either M2 .50 Brownings, or the Mk19 40mm grenade launcher (looks like a dwarf .50; feeds from a belt). Not to mention the AT4 missle (our single shot version of the RPG-7).

Cheers!
46 posted on 07/10/2003 9:22:11 AM PDT by drachenfels ("Cry Havoc, and Unleash the Pundits of War!")
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To: drachenfels
Thanks. I've always wondered, since the folks in the movies always have a limitless supply.
47 posted on 07/10/2003 9:33:39 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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