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(Prince) Madoc In America
Arthur In America ^

Posted on 07/10/2003 5:56:52 PM PDT by blam

Madoc In America

Native American Histories in the USA

Is truth stranger than fiction? Of course it is; it always has been One subject that has been debated for the last four hundred years was whether or not a Khumric-Welsh Prince called Madoc discovered America. Queen Elizabeth I was persuaded by her advisors that this was so and the Khumric-Welsh discovery was put forward as somehow giving England a prior claim in the political wrangles over first rights in the New World of the Americas.

No one ever thought to investigate the British records. Caradoc of Llancarfan wrote about it circa 1140. The information was made available to historian Richard Hakluyt. Immediately, things started to go wrong. Thinking that the Madoc story was a continuation of the same history, Hakluyt wrongly dated the voyages around 1170, which, of course, would be impossible as Caradoc of Llancarfan could not have recorded voyages which took place 14 years after he died!

A certain William Fleming, of Flemingston, near Cardiff, wrote poetry on the subject before Caradoc died, so the idea of voyages being made in 1170 becomes even weaker. In 1625, the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote a world history that stated that a Welsh Prince had discovered America and that, "King Arthur knew of it". This means voyages in the sixth century...

We know that "King Arthur" was, in fact, two people, which clears up the confusion of Polydore Vergil, historian at the Court of Henry VIII, relating to how "King Arthur" could defeat the Romans and also the Angles, the Saxons and others. "Arthur" would have been 250 years old. We know now, thanks to our King Arthur Research Project, that Arthur I was son of Magnus Maximus and led the British armies into Gaul in 383, defeated the Romans at Sassy-Soissons and chased the Roman Emperor Gratian to Lyons, where he executed him.

Arthur II, son of King Meurig, and a sixth generation direct male descendant of Arthur I, is the Sixth Century Arthur of legend.

What has this to do with America? Well, King Arthur, son of Meurig, had brothers and sisters. His brothers were Idnerth, who was murdered, St Pawl, known as "King Poulentius" in the Lives of Saints, Ffrioc, who was killed by Morgan Mwynfawr, and Madoc Morfran, the Cormorant. If we begin to research the sixth Century Madoc Morfran some extraordinary and startling facts emerge. For instance, the best recorded and defining event of "Dark Age" Britain was the devastation caused by debris from a comet, which struck in 562. Dr Victor Clube, Professor of Astrophysics at Oxford University, estimates this as having been an equivalent of a scatter of at least 100 Hiroshima-size atomic bombs. Unsurprisingly, great tracts of land were rendered uninhabitable and populations were wiped out, giving rise to subsequent literature relating to "The Great Wastelands" of Arthurian Britain, the "Yellow Plague" and the "Coming Of The Dragon". Seen in this context, all are symbolic of the same cataclysmic event…

A wealth of ancient manuscript evidence preserves the records of Madoc Morfran's voyages to Er-Yr meaning "towards that which is beyond", in search of new and habitable lands. Eryr means "land of eagles" and is usually attributed to Snowdonia in Gwynedd, but Er-Yr is, in fact, America. The records were obviously both religiously and politically incorrect; religion preached that God had created a safe, stable solar system and that stones could not fall from the heavens. The records tell us of a voyage by Madoc Morfran where he was believed lost and then "miraculously" re-appeared after ten years. No ship could sail west into the Atlantic for ten years and be supplied and return, so the event was truly remarkable. Madoc even brought a brown skinned man home with circa 572…

The records tell of the great new lands across the Western ocean and, in 573, Admiral Gwenon was sent out to check Madoc's star reckonings, which were doubted. Gwenon returned, and a fleet of 700 ships was assembled. It sailed for Er-Yr in 574. Anyone having a negative knee jerk reaction to all this would do well to keep an open mind. The evidence for Madoc, son of King Meurig, brother of King Arthur ll, is formidable, to say the least. So also is the surviving physical evidence in both Britain and in North America.

We have done a great deal of research into the question of the ancient British navy and its capabilities. (This will be published in the very near future and is unusually detailed. Much of the research was done in the early-mid 1980s. We have recently updated it with new and important hard evidence.) Welsh shipbuilders were the best in the business and many ancient Khumric Kings fought wars of movement that relied upon their being able to move large numbers of troops and vast quantities of supplies from place to place. Oddly enough, some modern historians claim that Arthur ll could not have fought such wars of movement because the Khumry were "primitive". And yet they are quite happy for other tribal groups, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings and others to have sailed long distances in ships of great speed and manoeuvrability. The double standard is immediately obvious but ships more ancient than those used by Arthur and his contemporaries have been located around Britain's shores. Indeed, ancient Khumric-British history is a story of two seaborne mass migrations!

Jim Michael, President of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association, and one of our most active US supporters, takes up the tale: "In the early 1800s a Dr. Ward was summoned to the White Water area of Indiana to treat the people of a village of Native Americans who were dying of, perhaps, smallpox. One of the last surviving men, who called himself a king, asked if he could give Dr. Ward some sacred information. He told Ward that the member of the tribe who was to have received this "Lleni Llenape" information was dead, and there was no one left to pass it on to. He then handed him 148 sticks each of which had carving upon it."

"Dr Ward later gave these sticks to Professor Constantine Rafinesque of Transylvania College. Rafinesque and Eli Lilly went back to the tribal area to get more information on the history, called the "Wallam Ollam". They met with several of the remaining elders and learned that there was a chant that went with each stick. One of the sticks told of a great flood, and another of the creation myth. The remaining sticks told what happened when different kings were leading their people. It appeared to be a chronology of their tribal leadership. Eli Lily published the Wallan Ollam in book form and gave every member of the Indiana Historical Society a copy."

"The bards of Britannia also recorded all the births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into public and sang their story to all. It is very hard to believe that two historical record systems could be independently invented. Of course, the two men had a bit of trouble understanding the wording but they did the best they could to write down what they heard."

Sounds crazy? Not really; the best part is that the Delaware histories tell of a great and powerful nation of "White men" who came to the Kentucky and Indiana regions in antiquity and that only an unprecedented alliance of all the Mid Western and Eastern tribes was able to fight against them. Had Rafinesque and Lilly known that Gwallam Oll-means "The Organization of Everyone", and that Lleni Llenape means "Secret Knowledge", in the Khumric-Welsh language, then things would have been rather different.

When we realised the massive significance of this information we formed a transatlantic partnership; researchers, historians and supporters in the USA joined us in the early 1990s. Several exchange visits and lectures tours resulted. Alan Wilson travelled to the USA in 1993-4, lectured in colleges and universities, appeared on TV and told the Americans about the Khumric side of the story. The work continues today and, we were encouraged by the publication of The Holy Kingdom (May 2002) in the USA by Invisible Cities Press, which will give interested American readers the correct historical background to both King Arthurs and more besides.

We now know who led the 700-ship expedition to America; the records say it was Arthur II ap Meurig, along with his brother Madoc Morfran and brother-in-law Ammwn Ddu. This, we should point out, is only the beginning…

For political reasons, Humphrey Llwyd and Richard Hakluyt invented a Madoc sailing in 1170 instead of 562; they were only 600 years out! Their fiction made Madoc a son of Owen Gwynedd (an ancestor of Elizabeth I) instead of the copiously well-recorded Madoc son of King Meurig. Wrong family but suitable ancestry for Elizabeth I of England. Then they moved Madoc from his native South East Wales to North West Wales. Wrong territory but very suitable for ancestors of Elizabeth I of England. The result? A deliberately targetted, early political and religious attack upon our immensely valuable, well documented and provable British history.

But that's OK. We are following in the tradition of truth set in motion by Bardic scholars in ancient times. Their work was understood, researched and republished from the earliest times and we are carrying on the noble tradition of truth in British history. The stones and monuments are where the ancient manuscripts tell us they should be and the site of every battle and, indeed, every significant historical event can be tracked down using the same information. What is good for Britain is good for America too, as we discovered. Riddles in the ancient poetry and other stories became clear when we understood that Madoc, and Arthur, had indeed engaged upon a very real voyage to the otherworld.

As a result, we now know the true story of Madoc in America and the detailed evidence is truly remarkable. We are making progress on all fronts and we have archaeological, documentary, oral, radiocarbon dated and other evidence to support our case.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Delaware; US: Indiana; US: Kentucky; US: Tennessee; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: america; ancientnavigation; arthur; barryfell; caradoc; caradocofllancarfan; clovis; delaware; epigraphyandlanguage; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; gratian; heyerdahl; in; indiana; kentucky; kingarthur; madoc; madocmorfran; magnusmaximus; meurig; preclovis; precolumbian; princemadoc; richardhakluyt; romanempire; tennessee; thorheyerdahl; turass; unitedkingdom
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Professor Mike Baillie dates the comet swarm mentioned closer to the 540AD period. (...and it was the cause and beginning of the dark ages, which was a worldwide event.)
1 posted on 07/10/2003 5:56:52 PM PDT by blam
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2 posted on 07/10/2003 5:59:56 PM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: PoisedWoman; RightWhale; farmfriend
Catastrophic Event Preceded The Dark Ages - Scientist
3 posted on 07/10/2003 5:59:56 PM PDT by blam
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To: Support Free Republic; JudyB1938
The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imaged
4 posted on 07/10/2003 6:03:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
English And Welsh Are Races Apart
5 posted on 07/10/2003 6:06:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
http://www.illinoismysterycave.com

This one is way out there. ;-)

You ever hear of it?

6 posted on 07/10/2003 6:06:33 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: blam
American Indians had stories of white men long before Columbus got here.

If memory serves me correctly, at least the Kickapoo, Natchee, & Cayuga had these legends of white men with blue eyes that lived among them.

7 posted on 07/10/2003 6:12:21 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: an amused spectator
I have heard of that cave, dont remember the datails

There were supposedly similar sites found in Tennesee & Kentucky (farther east)

8 posted on 07/10/2003 6:17:44 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: blam
Does any of this have any thing to do with the Celtic writings on the walls of caves in New York State ?
9 posted on 07/10/2003 6:19:13 PM PDT by Betty Jo
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To: blam
Something even more interesting - when the first "modern" white men encountered the Kickapoo, the Kickapoo had Greek & Roman coins that had been handed down thru generations

Hard telling where in North America they actually came from as the Kickapoo were known to be great travellers & explorers

10 posted on 07/10/2003 6:21:27 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: an amused spectator
"You ever hear of it?"

No, I have not heard of that site.

I know that cave as Burrows Cave from Ancient American Magazine

11 posted on 07/10/2003 6:28:39 PM PDT by blam
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To: Betty Jo
" Does any of this have any thing to do with the Celtic writings on the walls of caves in New York State ?"

In my most recent reading, the authors claim most of the 'Celtic' writings in America are in fact Khumric. Click on the site of this article and there are a number of other related articles. Most quite interesting.

12 posted on 07/10/2003 6:37:16 PM PDT by blam
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To: Ford Fairlane
"Hard telling where in North America they actually came from as the Kickapoo were known to be great travellers & explorers"

You'd probably be interested in reading some of the work of Gloria Farley.

13 posted on 07/10/2003 6:41:03 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
When do we celebrate Madoc Day?

As for comet swarms, many believe that now is the time...the Planet Xers thought it would be charging into our solar system last month.

Too much to worry about.
14 posted on 07/10/2003 6:41:14 PM PDT by PoisedWoman (Fed up with the CORRUPT liberal media)
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To: blam
For instance, the best recorded and defining event of "Dark Age" Britain was the devastation caused by debris from a comet, which struck in 562. Dr Victor Clube, Professor of Astrophysics at Oxford University, estimates this as having been an equivalent of a scatter of at least 100 Hiroshima-size atomic bombs. Unsurprisingly, great tracts of land were rendered uninhabitable and populations were wiped out, giving rise to subsequent literature relating to "The Great Wastelands" of Arthurian Britain, the "Yellow Plague" and the "Coming Of The Dragon". Seen in this context, all are symbolic of the same cataclysmic event…

Where did it hit ?

15 posted on 07/10/2003 6:43:31 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: PoisedWoman
"As for comet swarms, many believe that now is the time...the Planet Xers thought it would be charging into our solar system last month."

Something I read just last night: The planet Mars will be the closest to earth in the next month than it has been in the last 60,000 years. It hasn't made the 'run-of-the-mill' news yet but, it will. (You heard it here first)

16 posted on 07/10/2003 6:47:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
“America has been discovered before, but it has always been hushed up.”
~Oscar Wilde~

17 posted on 07/10/2003 6:50:20 PM PDT by Savage Beast (Vote Democrat! Vote for national--and personal--suicide! It's like being a suicide bomber!)
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To: Centurion2000
"Where did it hit ?"

Professor Mike Baillie believes a large portion of it fell into the Celtic Sea. (It may have been spread out over a large area though) The Dark Ages were worldwide. Astronomers Clube and Napier speak of it in their book Cosmic Winter.

Baillie believes that all the dragon imagry in Beuwolf is about this event.

18 posted on 07/10/2003 6:56:03 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
bump ping for a later detailed reading. Thanks for posting the article.
19 posted on 07/10/2003 6:56:55 PM PDT by soundbits
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To: blam
Some artifacts have been found including 7 bronze coins from ancient Carthage in North Africa. One of these was found buried 5 feet deep.

I have heard speculation about this, the main problem is that when the romans destroyed carthage they also destroyed all of their trading records, so we will never know where all they went, and they went all over the place

20 posted on 07/10/2003 6:58:52 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: blam
Have you heard of the legend of the Piasa in Illinois?

It is carved & painted in the bluffs above the river near St. Louis

Personally, I am not convinced it is of American Indian origin


21 posted on 07/10/2003 7:12:00 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Ford Fairlane
"Have you heard of the legend of the Piasa in Illinois?"

No but, here it is.

22 posted on 07/10/2003 7:19:12 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Baillie believes that all the dragon imagry in Beuwolf is about this event.

Always wondered about the red dragon and the white dragon, who hasn't. Perhaps it was alchemical before the Arabs invented alchemy, perhaps it was astronomical, perhaps both. There were dragons elsewhere in the world, too, China had them and still does for one.

23 posted on 07/10/2003 7:21:59 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: blam
Yea, i think thats where i stole the pic links from - there is a U of I site for it somewhere, but I cant find it now (the site I couldnt find also covers the mounds scattered all over the midwest & the ancient roads)
24 posted on 07/10/2003 7:23:58 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: RightWhale
"Always wondered about the red dragon and the white dragon, who hasn't. "

Yup. Also, most anthropologists accept a death date for King Arthur of 535-545AD. I find it interesting that King Arthur's fathers name is Pendragon.(More dragons)

25 posted on 07/10/2003 7:36:49 PM PDT by blam
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To: Ford Fairlane
Personally, I am not convinced it is of American Indian origin.

Nor am I. It looks more like a medieval European drawing of a mythical beast.

There was much more traffic between Europe and North America before Columbus, and even before the Vikings, than most people realize.

26 posted on 07/10/2003 7:52:44 PM PDT by Loyalist (When she gets back from Vancouver....)
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To: Ford Fairlane
The original Piasa painting was destroyed some time ago, mining if I remember right. The painting you posted was done by 20th century white men and looks a bit different.
27 posted on 07/10/2003 7:59:01 PM PDT by Mr. Peabody
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To: Ford Fairlane
You would probably like this magazine, Ancient American Magazine

...and here

28 posted on 07/10/2003 8:01:56 PM PDT by blam
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To: Mr. Peabody
I was told it was restored from old photos & some really old peoples memories, the original was weathered & covered by growth
29 posted on 07/10/2003 8:04:57 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Mr. Peabody
I was told it was restored from old photos & some really old peoples memories, the original was weathered & covered by growth
30 posted on 07/10/2003 8:04:57 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Thanks for the links

I do like this sort of thing, you just cant make a living with it

My dads farmland was a major camping area for both the Illini & the Kickapoo (& probably some others) after a major storm we can still walk the fields & find all sorts of arrowheads, axes, spears, etc - but nothing like the colection our old neighbor had

He had some spearheads that looked like what you would see in the movie "ZULU" that he had found in the field my dad owns now

When I was young he told me all the good places to look for artifacts, & I didn't pay much attention & now I wish I had

32 posted on 07/10/2003 8:11:18 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: blam; Ford Fairlane
Let's also remember another famous Celtic sailor, Prince Henry Sinclair, Jarl of Orkney, who explored Nova Scotia and New England in 1398.
34 posted on 07/10/2003 8:12:39 PM PDT by Loyalist (When she gets back from Vancouver....)
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To: Loyalist
I've never heard of him - I'll have to look into that
35 posted on 07/10/2003 8:16:24 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: plusones
OK, now I'm going to have to check out your book

The western author Louis L'Amour was doing research in this field when he unfortunatley passed away. I have talked to several people who have tried to get access to his research, but they have been unsuccessful.

Seeing that info would be a great find, i know from reading his western novels that his research was meticulous, if he said a stream or a cave or any geographic feature was somewhere (in a novel), it is really there - I have followed several of the trails he described while on vacations, every nook & cranny he described is there, including locations with ancient cliff drawings, artifacts, etc.

37 posted on 07/10/2003 8:27:48 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Ford Fairlane
"My dads farmland was a major camping area for both the Illini & the Kickapoo (& probably some others) after a major storm we can still walk the fields & find all sorts of arrowheads, axes, spears, etc - but nothing like the colection our old neighbor had"

I bought about a five tract of land down here, it was an old pecan orchard that had overgrown terribly. As I was clearing it off, I kept noticing a number of mounds and was thinking INDIAN MOUNDS! I did some checking and discovered that the mounds were horse graves from years and years prior. I do have some 7,000 year old wood though, lol.

38 posted on 07/10/2003 8:45:45 PM PDT by blam
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Loyalist
We have a plaque down here too at Ft Morgan, on Mobile Bay, for Prince Madoc.

"The inscription on a plaque placed alongside Mobile Bay in 1953 by the Daughters of the American Revolution reads: "In memory of Prince Madog, a Welsh explorer who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language."

40 posted on 07/10/2003 8:50:06 PM PDT by blam
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To: plusones
"You've done it again, blam! Another interesting article."

Thanks, It's my hobby.

41 posted on 07/11/2003 7:43:18 AM PDT by blam
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To: JudyB1938
You never 'showed-up' for this ping, ha. (bump)
42 posted on 07/14/2003 8:36:16 PM PDT by blam
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To: farmfriend
GGG index, please.
43 posted on 08/04/2003 10:22:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; carenot; freedom9; FreeLibertarian; Little Ray; lizma; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

44 posted on 08/05/2003 12:22:02 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping. (bump)


45 posted on 11/29/2004 4:57:38 PM PST by blam
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No ping, just the updated contact information.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

46 posted on 11/29/2004 9:53:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: blam

Fascinating story.


47 posted on 08/02/2005 6:19:12 PM PDT by csvset
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

48 posted on 10/27/2005 9:54:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: blam
Kewl - thanks. just backtracking to see what I missed for years.
49 posted on 12/10/2005 3:11:53 PM PST by Yellow Rose of Texas (Separation of Church and State is a MYTH, read the First Amendment)
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To: TR Jeffersonian

ping


50 posted on 12/10/2005 3:21:03 PM PST by kalee
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