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PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION BAN - THE BETRAYAL IS NOW COMPLETE [BARF ALERT - ANTI-GOP PROPAGANDA]
NewsWithViews.com ^ | May 9, 2003 | By David Brownlow

Posted on 08/02/2003 10:39:40 PM PDT by Uncle Bill

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1 posted on 08/02/2003 10:39:41 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
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To: Uncle Bill
wholly crap! unbelievable! I did not know about the details. Just sickening...
2 posted on 08/02/2003 10:43:11 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Uncle Bill
IF THE HEAD IS ALMOST OUT OF THE MOTHER, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO KILL THE KID?

I never did understand why conservative politicians did not address this point.

Obviously, if you can deliver the baby to kill it, you can deliver the baby!

3 posted on 08/02/2003 10:47:15 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe
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To: AAABEST; billbears; Victoria Delsoul; Fiddlstix; fporretto; Free Vulcan; Liberty Teeth; Loopy; ...
-
4 posted on 08/02/2003 10:53:18 PM PDT by Sir Gawain (Every Jedi has a semi-retarded twin -- http://www.jedimaster.net)
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To: Uncle Bill
Neither party is worth a damn. I have no further loyalty to either party.
5 posted on 08/02/2003 10:53:31 PM PDT by boycott
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To: Lijahsbubbe
"Obviously, if you can deliver the baby to kill it, you can deliver the baby!"

Exactly. Whatever happened to for the children when it really counts?

6 posted on 08/02/2003 10:53:32 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
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To: boycott
"Neither party is worth a damn. I have no further loyalty to either party."

Me either. Screw 'em. I'm sick of the betrayals.

7 posted on 08/02/2003 10:56:46 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
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To: Uncle Bill
INTSUM
8 posted on 08/02/2003 11:01:08 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
Hello sir. God bless.

Hearing on The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (HR 1833)

Statement of Brenda Pratt Shafer, R.N.
Registered Nurse

Before the Subcommittee on the Constitution
Committee on the Judiciary
U.S. House of Representatives

March 21, 1996

Mr. Chairman and honorable members of the Judiciary Committee, I am Brenda Pratt Shafer. I am here before you, at the request of the Committee, to relate to you my experience as an eyewitness to what is now known as the partial-birth abortion procedure.

I am a registered nurse, licensed in the State of Ohio, with 14 years of experience. In 1993, I was employed by Kimberly Quality Care, a nursing agency in Dayton, Ohio. In September, 1993, Kimberly Quality Care asked me to accept assignment at the Women's Medical Center, which is operated by Dr. Martin Haskell. I readily accepted the assignment because I was at that time very pro-choice. I had even told my teenage daughters that if one of them ever got pregnant at a young age, I would make them get an abortion. They disagreed with me on this, and one of them even wrote an essay for a high school class that mentioned how we differed on the issue.

So, because of the strong pro-choice views that I held at that time, I thought this assignment would be no problem for me.

But I was wrong. I stood at a doctor's side as he performed the partial-birth abortion procedure-- and what I saw is branded forever on my mind.

I worked as an assistant nurse at Dr. Haskell's clinic for three days-- September 28, 29, and 30, 1993.

On the first day, we assisted in some first-trimester abortions, which is all I'd expected to be involved in. (I remember that one of the patients was a 15-year-old-girl who was having her third abortion.)

On the second day, I saw Dr. Haskell do a second-trimester procedure that is called a D & E (dilation and evacuation). He used ultrasound to examine the fetus. Then he used forceps to pull apart the baby inside the uterus, bringing it out piece by piece and piece, throwing the pieces in a pan.

Also on the first two days, we inserted laminaria to dilate the cervixes of women who were being prepared for the partial-birth abortions-- those who were past the 20 weeks point, or 4 1\2 months. (Dr. Haskell called this procedure "D & X", for dilation and extraction.) There were six or seven of these women.

On the third day, Dr. Haskell asked me to observe as he performed several of the procedures that are the subject of this hearing. Although I was in that clinic on assignment of the agency, Dr. Haskell was interested in hiring me full time, and I was being given orientation in the entire range of procedures provided at that facility.

I was present for three of these partial-birth procedures. It is the first one that I will describe to you in detail.

The mother was six months pregnant (26 1/2 weeks). A doctor told her that the baby had Down Syndrome and she decided to have an abortion. She came in the first two days to have the laminaria inserted and changed, and she cried the whole time. On the third day she came in to receive the partial-birth procedure.

Dr. Haskell brought the ultrasound in and hooked it up so that he could see the baby. On the ultrasound screen, I could see the heart beating. As Dr. Haskell watched the baby on the ultrasound screen, the baby's heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen.

Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms-- everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby's head just inside the uterus.

The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall.

The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby was completely limp. I was really completely unprepared for what I was seeing. I almost threw up as I watched the doctor do these things.

Mr. Chairman, I read in the paper that President Clinton says that he is going to veto this bill. If President Clinton had been standing where I was standing at that moment, he would not veto this bill.

Dr. Haskell delivered the baby's head. He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw that baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he'd used. I saw the baby move in the pan. I asked another nurse and she said it was just "reflexes."

I have been a nurse for a long time and I have seen a lot of death-- people maimed in auto accidents, gunshot wounds, you name it. I have seen surgical procedures of every sort. But in all my professional years, I had never witnessed anything like this.

The woman wanted to see her baby, so they cleaned up the baby and put it in a blanket and handed the baby to her. She cried the whole time, and she kept saying, "I'm so sorry, please forgive me!" I was crying too. I couldn't take it. That baby boy had the most perfect angelic face I have ever seen.

I was present in the room during two more such procedures that day, but I was really in shock. I tried to pretend that I was somewhere else, to not think about what was happening. I just couldn't wait to get out of there. After I left that day, I never went back. These last two procedures, by the way, involved healthy mothers with healthy babies.

I was very much affected by what I had seen. For a long time, sometimes still, I had nightmares about what I saw in that clinic that day.

That's why, last July, I wrote a letter to Congressman Tony Hall of Dayton, in support of the bill, telling what I had seen. And that led to me being asked to tell others what I'd seen, just as I am doing here today.

Mr. Chairman, since I wrote that letter to Congressman Tony Hall, I have been subjected to some strange attacks on my credibility, and I would like to address these briefly.

Last July 12, I sat in the audience as the full Judiciary Committee debated this legislation, and I heard Congresswoman Schroeder read a letter from Dr. Haskell to the Judiciary Committee (also dated July 12) in which he said, "I have examined our records and found no evidence of a Brenda Shafer working for us during 1993."

Fortunately, I had previously provided the Constitution Subcommittee with the pertinent payroll records from Kimberly Quality Care, including their invoice to Dr. Haskell's clinic. After these documents were circulated, Congresswoman Schroeder withdrew that particular allegation, explaining it away as resulting from confusion over my married name. But it seemed peculiar to me at the time that neither she nor her staff had contacted me, or the subcommittee staff to request documentation, before she basically called me a liar in front of everybody. But there was much more of that sort of thing to come.

In his July 12 letter, Dr. Haskell said also said that my account was "inaccurate," because "she describes procedures at 26 1/2 weeks and 25 weeks... This is contrary to my own self-imposed and established limit of 24 weeks." But in recent times I've seen an article published in American Medical News for July 5, 1993-- just a few months before I worked for him-- in which Dr. Haskell said that he performs the procedure "up until about 25 weeks," which conflicts with his letter to the Judiciary Committee.

Also, in Dr. Haskell's 1992 paper describing the partial-birth procedure, "Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion," which you have all seen, he wrote,

"This author routinely performs this procedure on all patients 20 through 24 weeks LMP [i.e., from last menstrual period] with certain exceptions. The author performs the procedure on selected patients 25 through 26 weeks LMP." Keep in mind that this 26 1/2 week little boy had Down syndrome, so this was a "selected patients" case.

Later, I learned another letter had been produced by Dr. Haskell's operation, dated July 17, this one signed by Christie Gallivan, a nurse. This letter was cited by opponents of the bill before and during the House and Senate floor debates, and was even entered into the Congressional Record by Senator Barbara Boxer.

In this letter, Christie Gallivan acknowledged that I had worked at the clinic for three days, but went on to claim that since I was a temporary nurse, I "would not have been present" at such a procedure-- or, then again, in the alternative, that if I did see such a procedure, then my memory must be faulty, or else that I must be deliberately "misrepresenting" what I saw.

Well, as I've said from the beginning, although I was assigned by a temporary agency, Dr. Haskell needed another surgical nurse-- I was told that he was having a hard time keeping them-- and he seemed to be interested in hiring me on a permanent basis. He wanted me to observe the procedure. Christie Gallivan was the surgical nurse and she spent those three days giving me an "orientation," as it says on the Kimberly Quality Care invoice. But what is striking to me is how blatantly inconsistent Nurse Gallivan's letter is, not only with what I saw, but with what Dr. Haskell himself has written and said elsewhere.

Christie Gallivan wrote, "Dr. Haskell does not use ultrasound in the performance of second-trimester procedures." Then she went on, regarding my account, "Therefore, her entire description of her experience with viewing the second-trimester abortion, which includes Dr. Haskell using the ultrasound while doing this procedure, is clearly questionable."

Yet, in Dr. Haskell's paper explaining how he performs the procedure, he clearly states that the surgical assistant "places an ultrasound probe on the patient's abdomen and scans the fetus, locating the lower extremities." And a little further on, referring to the forceps, he wrote, "When the instrument appears on the sonogram screen, the surgeon is able to open and close its jaws to firmly and reliably grasp a lower extremity."

So when Christie Gallivan writes that I could not have seen a baby moving, you can evaluate-that statement in the light of her other statements on these points on which there is such a clear written record. And you should notice that she never tries to explain, in this letter, why anyone should believe that these babies supposedly don't move. I've been given a copy of a transcript of the tape-recorded interview with Dr. Haskell conducted by the American Medical News in June, 1993-- only three months before my time at his clinic-- in which he explicitly acknowledged that most of these babies are alive when he pulls them out.

On November 17, I testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Kennedy asked me why it had been reported, in a nursing newsletter, that I was employed by the National Right to Life Committee. As replied, and I tell you know, I've never been a member of, or a donor to that organization, and certainly in no sense an employee.

Certainly, since last summer I have cooperated with National Right to Life in their efforts to make my experience more widely known, because I think it's important that people know the truth about this matter. But National Right to Life has not paid me for anything, and nobody else has paid me for anything in connection with this subject either, beyond reimbursing travel and accommodation expenses. By the way, the editor of the nursing newsletter subsequently retracted the erroneous claim.

Most recently, I got a copy of a letter sent to a constituent by Congresswoman Lynn Rivers of Michigan, written in longhand, in which this distinguished member of Congress claimed that I "was unwilling to testify under oath or submit herself to cross examination in front of Congress-- even though she was sitting in the hearing room while testimony was being taken."

Of course, Mr. Chairman, that is all pure fiction. By the time I heard of your bill and wrote my letter to Congressman Hall, on July 9, you had already concluded the hearing on your legislation. I was present for the July 12 markup, and spoke with various members of the committee and the press informally, but of course there was no opportunity for me to formally testify on that occasion, although I certainly would have welcomed the opportunity.

In November, when Senator Hatch invited me to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, I accepted immediately and without qualification. During the question period, Senator Kyl asked me if I would be willing to testify to these things under oath and I replied, "Yes, sir, I would. Or under a lie detector or anything else I need to do." [Senate hearing record, p. 63] And I tell you the same thing.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for indulging me in unburdening myself on these points. It is been frustrating to hear, and hear of, these attacks on my truthfulness, and not be able to respond.

It is still amazing to me that certain individuals who hold high elective offices, offices for which I hold great respect, have been so willing to publicly spread this kind of blatant misinformation about me, without making the slightest effort to investigate or look at any of the documentation.

Mr. Chairman, these people who say I didn't see what I saw-- I wish they were right. I wish I hadn't seen it. But I did see it, and I will never be able to forget it. That baby boy was only inches, seconds away from being entirely born, when he was killed. What I saw done to that little boy, and to those other babies, should not be allowed in this country.

Thank you.
[End Of Transcript]

9 posted on 08/02/2003 11:13:31 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
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To: LiteKeeper
Translation??
10 posted on 08/02/2003 11:14:31 PM PDT by trussell (Pesky, hiding, blonde hair-causing a blonde moment!! Can't find it to pull it out!!)
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To: Sir Gawain
Thanks for the ping, Gawain. :-(
11 posted on 08/02/2003 11:17:25 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Uncle Bill
Let's see,
We were promised a ban on partial birth abortions.
This bill bans partial birth abortions.
Therefore we have been betrayed.

Got it.
O2
12 posted on 08/02/2003 11:34:39 PM PDT by omegatoo
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To: trussell
We cannot vote for Bush anymore! We must find someone else. He is little better than the worst with a disguise. He is like the Trojan horse for us and apparently the republicans that signed the "partial birth abortion ban" are not better. Also his roadmap to peace is a roadmap from hell. What's going on with him considering he suppose to be a Christian???
13 posted on 08/02/2003 11:49:00 PM PDT by Bellflower
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To: Bellflower
How does INTSUM translate into this?

I don't believe I am able to read the President's mind about what he is doing. But I do support most of his decisions. I believe if he supports this, it is because he believes this is the right, first step to a total ban.

I could be wrong, and this is just my opinion, but at this time I choose to trust the President I helped to put in office.
14 posted on 08/02/2003 11:59:09 PM PDT by trussell (Pesky, hiding, blonde hair-causing a blonde moment!! Can't find it to pull it out!!)
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To: omegatoo
Yea, this whole thread has gone over my head too. They wanted a PBA ban, they got a PBA ban, and now they are bitching that Bush didn't ban ALL late term abortions.

Hey, I want abortion banned too, but let's quit moving the goalposts. This would have never passed if it banned something other than PBA.

15 posted on 08/03/2003 12:07:38 AM PDT by TomB
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To: Bellflower
"He is like the Trojan horse for us and apparently the republicans that signed the "partial birth abortion ban" are not better."

Given the 'close' numbers of the Congress and Senate; particularly those Repubs who are in fact Liberal by ANY other qualification. . .perhaps; this was the best we could do this year. . .

The fact is, we need more and 'better' Republicans on board to help pull the boat here and get it to 'safe harbor'.

I hope no one makes the mistake of thinking Bush et al. . .is no better than any Democrat. Give the 'new Left Democrat Party' an inch. . .and the miles we walk afterward will be truly regretable.

16 posted on 08/03/2003 12:18:12 AM PDT by cricket
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To: omegatoo
Uncle Bill figured out a long time ago that most people are idiots, and that they will believe the dealine, and his missinformation without ever bothering to actually think for themselves.

Bill is an anarchist, his goal is to create chaos under any sort of administration.

Bush promised a ban on partial birth abortions, and it has been delivered, yet you see people in here yelling tyhat they will not vote GOP again...I want to see the sort of anti-abortion bill the Dems will pass to please these single-issue voters.
17 posted on 08/03/2003 12:18:59 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I applaud any sort of restriction on abortion, but I won't be happy until abortion of any sort is illegal. This bill is probably the best we're going to get for a while, though, and it's a start.
18 posted on 08/03/2003 12:24:47 AM PDT by gsrinok
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To: gsrinok
Quit playing into Bill's sleight of hand, and figure out that all that text that he used to get a knee-jerk emotional reaction no longer applies as all partial birth abortions have been banned.
19 posted on 08/03/2003 12:28:15 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Uncle Bill
Who the heck are "women" that they feel their lives are more important than other lives??? If "women" feel that way, then I don't want to be any part of them!!! All human lives are valuable unless they have committed crimes so heinous that they no longer deserve the privilege G-d gave them.
20 posted on 08/03/2003 12:30:51 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: Bellflower
"CHAPTER 74. PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS

‘‘Sec.

‘‘1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited.

‘‘§ 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited

21 posted on 08/03/2003 12:33:32 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Bellflower
What part of "partial birth abortions prohibited" do you not understand?
22 posted on 08/03/2003 12:34:11 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: omegatoo
Bill, the absolute POS that he is, is trying to divert attention away from a Bush victory.
23 posted on 08/03/2003 12:35:45 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Uncle Bill
Busj promised to ban partial birth abortions, partial birth abortions have been banned.

Where's the betrayal you lying SOS?
24 posted on 08/03/2003 12:37:10 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Uncle Bill
Are you a DU plant or something ?
25 posted on 08/03/2003 12:39:14 AM PDT by John Lenin
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To: Jim Robinson
Have you seen this?

Banning partial birth abortions (as promised) is a betrayal?


26 posted on 08/03/2003 12:39:29 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: John Lenin
Bill is worse than that, at least most people at DU are honestly stupid.
27 posted on 08/03/2003 12:40:07 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I agree, and I'm happy to see this bill. It's not that I have any particular complaints about it, it's just that we have a long journey ahead of us to make abortion illegal, an even longer way to go to make all Americans see it for the evil that it is. This bill is a good start.
28 posted on 08/03/2003 12:42:19 AM PDT by gsrinok
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To: Uncle Bill
Are you president of the dementedly obtuse?

Your posted article is dated May 2003. Get current!

Partial birth murder has been banned.
29 posted on 08/03/2003 12:44:55 AM PDT by onyx (Name an honest democrat? I can't either!)
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To: Bellflower
We cannot vote for Bush anymore!

Bush can only the sign or not sign the bill as handed to him. Would rather he just not sign this bill at all?

30 posted on 08/03/2003 12:45:11 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: Luis Gonzalez
But Bill IS stupid.
Honestly.
31 posted on 08/03/2003 12:46:08 AM PDT by omegatoo
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To: Luis Gonzalez
It's part of the DNC plan, like when they call in to radio shows and act like conservatives to bash Bush. Like people are really that naieve to believe them.
32 posted on 08/03/2003 12:46:44 AM PDT by John Lenin
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To: gsrinok
"This bill is a good start."

And it's no betrayal.

What's funny about the abortion issue is that conservatives abandon all semblance of any support for State's rights, and demand that the Fedral government intervene.

The issue of abortion should be left to each individual State.

33 posted on 08/03/2003 12:55:03 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Yo soy la Cuba libre.)
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To: Mercuria
Mercuria:

You wrote:

"And heartbreaking as it is for me to say this, neither does Mr. Santorum care. Nor, for that matter, any other Republican who tries to paint the possible passage of a clearly flawed and ineffectual bill - that will save not one child from this barbaric procedure - as a victory for anyone or anything but their campaign managers, who will no doubt use the blockage or passage of this bill to play upon the ignorance and gullibility of their constituents again during the next election go-round.

Oh, and so will the other side, btw, when they paint Republicans as "extremists" for producing an "anti-choice" bill to begin with, even though it in fact does nothing more than hint to abortionists that they themselves will have to get a little more creative in their "choice" on how to stay on the legal side of an elective PBA. I say if the Republicans are going to get trashed by the Democrats, they might as well get trashed for something real.

Fraud Republic has the utter gall to shut out the truth about S.3 as "propaganda", and then uses a soft-soaped pro-Pubbie spin and the spectre of brutalized unborn babies - none of whom will be rescued by this Potemkin PBA ban being bandied about - to prop up the GOP and S.3 as any way effective about this issue. And to add insult to injury, they "coincidentally" present a "new" (actually old) column about morality being problematic in the pro-life debate just hours after Uncle Bill's original post got pulled and he got booted."

Sorry, Mercuria, but I ain't buying it. You're gonna have to explain to me how this legislation is a sell out and how Mr. Santorum and the rest of the Republicans are putting one over on us. This bill looks like it calls for a jail term for any doctor performing a partial birth abortion.

34 posted on 08/05/2003 2:13:20 AM PDT by Jim Robinson (Conservative by nature... Republican by spirit... Patriot by heart... AND... ANTI-Liberal by GOD!)
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To: Mercuria; JohnHuang2; kattracks; jwalsh07; billbears; MissAmericanPie; Free_at_last_-2001; ...
What do y'all think? Is Mercuria right about this? Is Mr. Santorum putting one over on us? Have we been betrayed by the Republicans? Looks to me like this bill says any doctor that uses the so-called partial birth abortion procedure to kill a baby gets fined or goes to jail.
35 posted on 08/05/2003 2:43:42 AM PDT by Jim Robinson (Conservative by nature... Republican by spirit... Patriot by heart... AND... ANTI-Liberal by GOD!)
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To: Jim Robinson
Looks to me like this bill says any doctor that uses the so-called partial birth abortion procedure to kill a baby gets fined or goes to jail.

Seems clear cut to me too.

For years we have been trying to get partial birth abortions banned. Now, when it's finally happened, it's seen as a loss, a betrayal?

I can only imagine what those who are screaming the loudest about the passage of this bill would have said if a bill hadn't been passed.

I detect something more than dissatisfaction with this particular bill behind all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

36 posted on 08/05/2003 3:20:00 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: kattracks
"I detect something more than dissatisfaction with this particular bill behind all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth."


The author of this "material" is an '04 Constitution Party candidate for Congress from Oregon. Consequently, the motivation is anti-Republican propaganda.

http://www.davebrownlow.com/

A similar, if not exact, thread was pulled night before last. You might note the campaign page doesn't show up in the link posted.
37 posted on 08/05/2003 3:55:08 AM PDT by windchime
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To: windchime
The background of the author explains the splashy title of the article and post.

I'm asking for mercy on those who would get righteously indignant on this topic - the killing of babies. Compassion is deeply spiritual and always emotional, even to the point of righteous anger. Some of us DO understand that there are necessary political strategies, and timings, and an opposing group. But based on the topic, consider mercy for why there is blindness in this area, where some don't want to appear to compromise. I think they're blinded and swayed by the deep compassion that rises - it rises in all of us, especially on this topic. I'm not condoning poor judgement.

Just something to consider. spoken as a minister

38 posted on 08/05/2003 4:23:49 AM PDT by bets
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To: cricket
The fact is, we need more and 'better' Republicans on board to help pull the boat here and get it to 'safe harbor'.

That may be. The fact is, a lot of things that have passed...more aid to education, prescription drugs, AIDS money to Africa, etc....would've been strenuously fought by the Republicans if Clinton were still President.

This abortion bill from the Senate might be awful. But, it's a first step. I don't see how anyone can explain why GWB didn't sit the HOR and Senate down, quickly, after it was passed, and get something. The fact that something is signed (even if imperfect) would be a powerful message that this country cares about life. Instead, GWB went to the Mideast, then Africa, now it's summer recess. It will not be acceptable to say in September. Ooops....too late....wait for the next election.

39 posted on 08/05/2003 4:32:40 AM PDT by grania ("Won't get fooled again")
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To: onyx
Partial birth murder has been banned.

Am I mistaken? I thought that the Senate and HOR hadn't gotten together on one bill to be signed yet, and until that happens PBA is not banned.

40 posted on 08/05/2003 4:37:12 AM PDT by grania ("Won't get fooled again")
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To: grania
The other post said that the debate wouldn't start until Sept 1, after the recess.
41 posted on 08/05/2003 4:41:50 AM PDT by bets
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To: bets
"I'm asking for mercy on those who would get righteously indignant on this topic - the killing of babies."


The saving of one child from this murderous procedure is a win as far as I'm concerned. Criticism of any advances in getting partial birth abortion banned (or of President Bush who WILL sign it into law) drives those individuals who fail to discern the motivation of the criticism into the arms of the likes of Hillary and her ilk.
42 posted on 08/05/2003 4:43:51 AM PDT by windchime
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To: Jim Robinson
I would make several points:

It's a good strategy on our part to dissect legislation in order to hold the Pubbies feet to the fire. We cannot simply sit back and do nothing. The Pubbies need to know we're watching their every move.

That said, the legislation does seem to ban p/b abortions. Unfortunately, we will have to see how the law plays out. Abortion worshippers have no compunction about breaking laws or finding loopholes that were never intended and/or that don't exist.

I would feel a whole lot better about this law if NARAL, PP and the abortion crowd told us chapter and verse why they opposed it.

That's one way to determine it's efficacy.....how the law's opponents view it.

43 posted on 08/05/2003 4:48:55 AM PDT by Liz
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To: Lijahsbubbe
Obviously, if you can deliver the baby to kill it, you can deliver the baby!

Of course. But that's not what they want. They want the baby dead.

I think I'm going to throw up.

44 posted on 08/05/2003 4:53:39 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Jim Robinson
I trust our good Senator from Pa.Let's move forward for the babies.
45 posted on 08/05/2003 4:55:11 AM PDT by fatima
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To: windchime
Yes, this is true.

Mercy and understanding aren't the same as condoning. Because of the deeply moving, humanly and divinely sensitive topic, I'm asking that you seek to understand and not totally flip out on the people who were blinded into poor judgement. I understand their viewpoints in this area are harmful to progress. Do you understand what I mean about mercy?

46 posted on 08/05/2003 4:57:05 AM PDT by bets
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To: Liz
"That's one way to determine it's efficacy.....how the law's opponents view it."

Following is a link I found last night that provides a transcript of the exchange between HRC and Rick Santorum on this topic.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/863886/posts
47 posted on 08/05/2003 5:03:43 AM PDT by windchime
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To: Uncle Bill
So now we know why the Republicans have gone thirty years without a single pro- life victory. These guys are not even pro-life! We have been fooling ourselves that somehow, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the years of partisan efforts were getting us closer to ending legalized abortion in America. But if the "sense" of the Senate is any indication, we have not even started the fight. We can now only hope that the House has enough sense to put S.3 out of it's misery.

A decades old policy of voting for the lesser of two evils has left us with a Republican Party that is a mere hollowed-out shell of its former self, broken beyond any hope of repair. The only way we are ever going to win this fight is by putting men and women of integrity into office who will not bow to the political pressures.

Clearly, the team we have in there now is not up to the task.


Is it too late?
48 posted on 08/05/2003 5:06:20 AM PDT by WhiteGuy (Deficit $455,000,000,000 + MY VOTE IS FOR SALE)
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To: Liz
I would feel a whole lot better about this law if NARAL, PP and the abortion crowd told us chapter and verse why they opposed it.

good points...esp. how much the AbortNAZI scream and stomp about it...

49 posted on 08/05/2003 5:12:12 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid,doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :)
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To: bets
"Do you understand what I mean about mercy?"

Yes.

"I'm asking that you seek to understand and not totally flip out on the people who were blinded into poor judgement."

LOL. You've evidently never seen me 'totaly flip out'. My comments and link were provided to clarify the source and the motivation of the presentation of the material.
50 posted on 08/05/2003 5:13:42 AM PDT by windchime
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