Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Skulls Found In Mexico Suggest Early Americans Would Have Said 'G'Day Mate'
Independent (UK) ^ | 9-4-2003 | Steve Conner

Posted on 09/03/2003 4:42:49 PM PDT by blam

Skulls found in Mexico suggest the early Americans would have said 'G'day mate'

By Steve Connor, Science Editor
04 September 2003

The accepted theory of how prehistoric humans first migrated to America has been challenged by a study of an ancient set of bones unearthed in Mexico.

An analysis of 33 skulls found on the Mexican peninsula of Baja California suggests that the first Americans were not north Asians who crossed to the American continent about 12,000 years ago.

The skulls more closely resemble the present-day natives of Australia and the South Pacific, suggesting that there might have been an earlier movement to America across the Bering Strait separating modern Russia from Alaska.

The research, published in today's issue of the journal Nature, is the latest twist in the controversy over who were the first Americans and how did they arrive in the New World?

Native Americans today bear a close physical resemblance to north-east Asians and anthropologists have long believed that this is because they are both descended from the same ancestors, some of whom migrated to America across the Ice Age bridge that spanned the Bering Strait.

However, a team of scientists led by Rolando Gonzales-José of the University of Barcelona in Spain believes that a different scenario could have occurred prior to the accepted migration of northern Asians.

Dr Gonzales-José and his colleagues analysed the shape and dimensions of 33 skulls of a tribe of people who lived near the western Mexican coast of Baja California between 2,500 and 300 years ago.

These relatively long and narrow skulls share a closer affinity to the skulls of the present-day inhabitants of south Asia and the southern Pacific Rim.

This suggests that these particular people could not have shared the same ancestor as present-day native Americans whose skulls more closely resemble broad and short shape of northern Asians.

Tom Dillehay, an anthropologist from the University of Kentucky in Lexington, said the accepted idea of how America became populated with humans was probably far too simple. "More recent archaeological discoveries suggest that there were several different founding populations, arriving from different places," Dr Dillehay said.

"To complicate matters further, it is no longer certain that the first colonisers arrived about 12,000 years ago - some archaeological sites in South America date from 12,500 years ago, which suggests that the first humans arrived at least 15,000 years ago," he said.

Dr Dillehay said the ancient people who lived on the long peninsula of Baja California probably became isolated from the rest of the north American population. This meant they retained the much older ancestral trait of a long and narrow skull.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; americans; brucebradley; clovis; dennisstanford; dillehay; early; gday; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; mate; mexico; preclovis; precolumbian; skulls; solutrean; solutreans
I'm shocked!

Walter Neves has done some good work in this area. I'll post some of his work as this thread progresses.

1 posted on 09/03/2003 4:42:50 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: farmfriend
'First Americans Were Australian'
2 posted on 09/03/2003 4:49:17 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Please, do keep this coming. This stuff is fascinating. I've had a theory about 'our friends to the south' for years.

Thanks for rounding out a rather agonizing day on FreeRepublic. This stuff is great!
3 posted on 09/03/2003 4:50:11 PM PDT by EggsAckley (......No more debating with McClintBots who are NOT from California.........~</;o))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Hmmmmm...did they find a tin of Fosters or 4X in the pit?
4 posted on 09/03/2003 4:50:16 PM PDT by Khurkris (Ranger On...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EggsAckley
Earliest Americans Seen As More Diverse
5 posted on 09/03/2003 5:02:23 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: blam
THANKS! I love this:

"Also, he notes that genetic evidence links eastern Native American populations with ancient Europeans, but not with Asians."

6 posted on 09/03/2003 5:05:49 PM PDT by EggsAckley (......No more debating with McClintBots who are NOT from California.........~</;o))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blam
Another good post. Thanks!

I'd like to see the results of DNA analysis though.
7 posted on 09/03/2003 5:17:35 PM PDT by Coyoteman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EggsAckley
"Also, he notes that genetic evidence links eastern Native American populations with ancient Europeans, but not with Asians."

I don't know why we're not hearing more about this:

European DNA Found In 7-8,000 Year Old Skeleton In Florida (Windover)

8 posted on 09/03/2003 5:19:02 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blam
the ancient people who lived on the long peninsula of Baja California probably became isolated from the rest of the north American population. This meant they retained the much older ancestral trait of a long and narrow skull.

Aha! A link!

9 posted on 09/03/2003 5:20:34 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Sorry I missed that. I was out of town at the time. I'll have to read more about it.
10 posted on 09/03/2003 5:20:43 PM PDT by EggsAckley (......No more debating with McClintBots who are NOT from California.........~</;o))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Sam Cree
First Americans
11 posted on 09/03/2003 5:27:21 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: blam
bump
12 posted on 09/03/2003 5:32:37 PM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: JudyB1938
Rainforest Researchers Hit Paydirt (Farming 11,000 Years Ago In South America)
13 posted on 09/03/2003 5:33:54 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Khurkris
B'dias 'Migo!
14 posted on 09/03/2003 5:33:55 PM PDT by mikrofon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: blam
Oh terrific. Instead of some Americans saying "give California back to Mexico," will the chant now change to "send the whole Southern left coast to the barbee in the Outback?"

Crikey.

15 posted on 09/03/2003 5:57:36 PM PDT by bd476 (Many attempts to communicate are nullified by saying too much. - Robert Greenleaf)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khurkris
Hmmmmm...did they find a tin of Fosters or 4X in the pit?

No, but there was a Toohey's.

16 posted on 09/03/2003 6:21:26 PM PDT by Lessismore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; bd476; carenot; CatoRenasci; ckilmer; curmudgeonII; dorothy; ellery; ..
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

17 posted on 09/03/2003 6:28:57 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
That Windover story is very strange. I wonder what it means.
18 posted on 09/03/2003 6:35:20 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: blam
It takes practically no intelligence to say "G'day, mate." I'll guess these skulls were extremely small.
19 posted on 09/03/2003 6:40:54 PM PDT by T'wit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Asians, Africans, Egyptians, Irish, Polynesians, Vikings, now Australians. I hope the scientists get it all sorted out so we can figure out who we have to pay reparations to.
20 posted on 09/03/2003 6:49:00 PM PDT by T'wit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: T'wit
ha!

that's a good one. I think it's going to turn out that all americans of european descent will owe reparations to everyone else, american or not....sounds fair enough to me--not!
21 posted on 09/03/2003 6:58:09 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Sam Cree
"That Windover story is very strange. I wonder what it means."

It means that some Europeans were in America 7-8,000 year ago and all the books will have to be re-written. It'll be a long time before that happens though, discoveries are coming 'hot and heavy.'.

22 posted on 09/03/2003 7:09:31 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: blam
Weren't they pre-Americans, as in pre-historic?
23 posted on 09/03/2003 7:11:52 PM PDT by Consort
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: T'wit
"Asians, Africans, Egyptians, Irish, Polynesians, Vikings, now Australians. I hope the scientists get it all sorted out so we can figure out who we have to pay reparations to."

People from everwhere came to America in ancient times

This is a statue found in Olmec (1200BC) ruins in Mexico.

24 posted on 09/03/2003 7:17:12 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Consort
"Weren't they pre-Americans, as in pre-historic?"

I prefer paleo-Americans.

25 posted on 09/03/2003 7:18:08 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: blam
We could call them paleo-pre-Americans but I prefer un-hyphenated words.
26 posted on 09/03/2003 7:24:54 PM PDT by Consort
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: blam
Looks like one of those Harley hogs in Milwaukee last weekend.
27 posted on 09/03/2003 9:29:44 PM PDT by T'wit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: blam
Remember this?

Everybody was here first

28 posted on 09/03/2003 9:30:51 PM PDT by T'wit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: T'wit
No, I've never seen that before.
29 posted on 09/03/2003 9:42:14 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: blam
Isn't Charles Boland the one who a poster named "anvil-something" disparaged on a link several years ago ? I linked to it recently via several other links.

It was about the Vatican archives giving evidence for the Vikings in North America.

30 posted on 09/04/2003 2:09:34 AM PDT by happygrl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: blam
I have compared a picture of the "Windover" skull with the "Lucia" skull. Allowing for individual differences, they look remarkably similar to me. I am not html literate enough to post them together. I ask that you do it if you can. Perhaps it might lead to further discussion.

31 posted on 09/04/2003 8:37:20 AM PDT by shamusotoole
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: shamusotoole
"I am not html literate enough to post them together."

Me either, sorry.

32 posted on 09/04/2003 9:36:00 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: shamusotoole
James Chatters (Kennewick Man) says that he has analysized some of the skulls that Walter Neves has and believes some are the same as Kennewick Man and Spirit Cave Man. Chatters has also found one skull in storage that does not match any humans alive today, he has dubbed it 'Stick Man.' (Maybe he is related to 'Mungo Man' from Australia?)
33 posted on 09/04/2003 9:42:17 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: blam; shamusotoole
freep email me the pix and I'll put them together and post them, if you'd like. eastbound@freerepublic.com
34 posted on 09/05/2003 4:52:23 PM PDT by Eastbound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Eastbound

Luzia

35 posted on 09/05/2003 5:03:22 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Eastbound

Skull from the Windover site

36 posted on 09/05/2003 5:07:03 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Eastbound

Kennewick Man

37 posted on 09/06/2003 8:36:40 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: blam

Re: Your # 32, contrast adjusted for detail
38 posted on 09/06/2003 2:43:38 PM PDT by Eastbound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Eastbound
Correction: # 36
39 posted on 09/06/2003 2:45:34 PM PDT by Eastbound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: blam
Same discovery, different report from the Economist.

This report emphasizes that this research could not have been done in the United States, because of the PC restrictions imposed by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. Note also that the Bush Administration continues to back the anti-science Clinton Administration position on taking Kennewick Man back from the scientists and giving him to the Indians for reburial, even though he wasn't an Indian.

Shapely skulls

Sep 4th 2003

From The Economist print edition

Geometry sheds new light on the first Americans

Who am I, anyway?

HOW and when did people first get to America? This is one of the most controversial topics in archaeology. A new analysis of 33 skulls from Baja California, by Rolando González-José of the University of Barcelona, and his collaborators, supports a recent theory that the first Americans were descended from southern Asians rather than Siberians, as had earlier been supposed. The ancestors of these “paleoamericans” are thought to have lived in southern Asia at least 40,000 years ago. Their descendants arrived on the American continent around 15,000 years ago, after “coasting” for generations round the northern Pacific (they coasted south too, according to this theory, and were also the ancestors of Australia's aboriginal population). They thus arrived before the ancestors of modern Amerindians, who crossed the Bering Straits 12,000 years ago.

The paleoamericans appear to have died out. There is no sign of them today. The question is: when did this happen? Up to now, the assumption has been: a long time ago. But Dr González-José begs to differ. The skulls he examined, thought to be from the Pericú tribal group, who were hunter-gatherers living near the southern tip of the Baja peninsula in early historic times, are a mere 2,000 years old. Yet they seem to be paleoamerican.

Although the skulls, stored at the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City and at the Regional Anthropological Museum of La Paz, were discovered over the course of the past three decades, Dr González-José's analysis, reported in this week's Nature, is the first to examine their geometry.

The researchers used two methods to analyse the skulls. The first employed 24 of the variables enumerated by William Howells, an archaeologist at Harvard who pioneered the statistical analysis of skulls in the 1970s. These variables include the length of the skull, the length of the face, and the width of the eye sockets. By comparing these measurements with those of known paleoamerican skulls, and of other populations, ancient and modern, Dr González-José inferred that the Pericú skulls are most similar to those of paleoamericans. The results of this analysis agreed with those from the more cutting-edge technique of “geometric morphometrics”, a computerised curve-fitting technique based on 14 points on the skull. Both methods link the paleoamericans to southern Asians and Pacific islanders, and likewise link modern-day Amerindians to Siberians.

Fortunately, by working in Mexico, Dr González-José's team did not meet with the difficulties currently plaguing archaeologists in the United States. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, passed in 1990, has made it hard to study ancient skeletons found within the United States. It gives control of such discoveries to Amerindian tribes living in the area in which they are made, on the assumption that such old bones may have belonged to ancestors of people in these tribes. Only if the tribes agree are scientists allowed to study them.

Unfortunately, the law has been abused to stop the study of skeletons so old (and so physically unlike local inhabitants) that they could not possibly be ancestral to modern local people. Most famously, this has resulted in a seven-year court battle over Kennewick Man, a 9,400-year-old skeleton that has Caucasian rather than Amerindian features, and was found in Washington state. Though the scientists prevailed in August last year, the American government, which is supporting the claims of local tribes, has filed an appeal. The latest hearings, due on September 10th, may decide whether Kennewick Man will be allowed to shed any light on the debate that Dr González-José has just so elegantly illuminated.

40 posted on 09/18/2003 2:05:49 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Right Wing Professor
Good report, thanks. I notice they have the terminology correct, paleo-Americans and paleo-Indians.
41 posted on 09/18/2003 3:13:39 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: blam
I am acquainted with Dr. Dillehay. Before I got my current job, I worked as a research analyst (fancy name for a principal lab tech) at the University of Kentucky dept. of Forestry. One of my duties was identifying samples of obscure wood. Dr. Dillehay sent over a very strange object that he found at the excavation site at Monte Verde. It had the structural features of a fine-grained softwood, but appeared to me made of lead sulfate, or some other dense, dark metal or metal ore. I never could identify it satisfactorily.
42 posted on 10/19/2003 5:55:44 AM PDT by Renfield
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield
"It had the structural features of a fine-grained softwood, but appeared to me made of lead sulfate, or some other dense, dark metal or metal ore. I never could identify it satisfactorily."

Was this a natural or man-made object?

43 posted on 10/19/2003 9:36:41 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: blam
It appeared to be natural, but I couldn't tell if it was "organic" vs "mineral". It may have been an example of wood whose atoms are replaced by metal...this happens often in nature, and I have a lot of ironstone fossils...but I don't know how it could have happened in the short time this object would have been in residence, about 14,000 years. This process normally takes many eons.
44 posted on 10/19/2003 11:19:55 AM PDT by Renfield
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Renfield
"This process normally takes many eons."

Maybe a human modified object that had already gone through the the mineralization process.(?)

45 posted on 10/19/2003 12:04:14 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

46 posted on 09/14/2005 11:22:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Right Wing Professor

I'm going to catch crap for this, but what if this is evidence of time travel and were just overlooking it?

*tin foil hat off*


47 posted on 09/14/2005 11:47:54 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: miliantnutcase
Looks like your post did a little time travelling. The thread's two years old. :-)

(Time travel would confuse histnory no end, undoubtedly)

48 posted on 09/15/2005 5:59:02 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (... just call me Pangloss.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

from two keywords, "solutrean" and "solutreans", sorted chrono: To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google ·
· The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


49 posted on 06/24/2009 3:00:56 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.troopathon.org/index.php -- June 25th -- the Troopathon)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson