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Limbaugh stands by McNabb race remarks
AP | 10/01/03 | ROB MAADDI

Posted on 10/01/2003 1:09:09 PM PDT by kattracks

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Rush Limbaugh insisted Wednesday he had "no racist intent whatsoever" in saying the media have overrated the Philadelphia Eagles' Donovan McNabb because they want to see a black quarterback succeed.

In fact, the conservative commentator said he must have been right; otherwise, the comments would not have sparked such outrage.

Limbaugh offered no apology, and McNabb said it was too late for one anyway.

"I'm sure he's not the only one that feels that way, but it's somewhat shocking to actually hear that on national TV," the NFL star said. "An apology would do no good because he obviously thought about it before he said it."

Before McNabb led the Eagles to a 23-13 victory over the Buffalo Bills on Sunday, Limbaugh said on ESPN's pregame show that he did not think McNabb was as good as he was perceived to be.

"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well," Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Limbaugh did not back down during his syndicated radio talk show Wednesday.

He reiterated that he does not think McNabb is a bad player, just that he isn't as good as some members of the media think he is.

"This is such a mountain out of a molehill," he said. "There's no racism here, there's no racist intent whatsoever."

"All this has become the tempest that it is because I must have been right about something," he said. "If I wasn't right there wouldn't be this cacophony of outrage that has sprung up in the sports writer community."

On Wednesday, Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark said Limbaugh should be fired. The retired Army general called the remarks "hateful and ignorant speech."

The NFL disclaimed any responsibility for Limbaugh's remarks.

"ESPN knew what it was getting when they hired Rush Limbaugh," league vice president Joe Browne said. "ESPN selects its on-air talent, not the NFL."

ESPN spokesman Dave Nagle said he did not believe the comments were racially biased. "He was comparing McNabb's performance on the field to his reputation in the media," Nagle said.

Chris Berman, who anchors the ESPN show, said he did not believe Limbaugh's tone or intent was malicious. "As cut and dry as it seems in print, I didn't think so when it went by my ears," he said. "I probably should have looked to soften it."

McNabb, who was runner-up for the MVP award in 2000 and has led the Eagles to two straight conference championship games, said he has no quarrel with Limbaugh's comment on his playing ability. "I know I played badly the first two games," he said.

But McNabb said that the comments about his race were out of bounds and added that someone on the show should have taken Limbaugh on. Among the other panelists were former players Michael Irvin and Tom Jackson, both of whom are black.

"I'm not pointing at anyone but someone should have said it," McNabb said of the panelists, who also include Berman and Steve Young. "I wouldn't have cared if it was the cameraman."

A decade ago, there were few black quarterbacks in the NFL. This season, 10 of the 32 teams will have started black quarterbacks in at least one game.

Limbaugh has helped increase the ratings for "Sunday NFL Countdown." Nagle said ratings are up 10 percent overall. Sunday's show drew its biggest audience in the regular season since 1996.

Limbaugh is the radio host of the politically focused "Rush Limbaugh Show," which is syndicated in more than 650 markets worldwide.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: rush
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To: swilhelm73
Rush just said what a lot of people think about minority atheletes sometimes.
151 posted on 10/01/2003 7:40:44 PM PDT by virgil
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To: swilhelm73
Hugh Douglas (note: one s in Douglas) and Jeremiah Trotter no longer play for the Eagles, by the way.
152 posted on 10/01/2003 8:07:27 PM PDT by Greg Luzinski
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To: Bommer
I'll run circles around you with football knowledge. First off Mcnabb's ability speaks for itself on the field. Remember the game where he broke his ankle in the first quarter? He went on to throw 3 td's in that game that he got that injury. Not only that but who can aruge his sheer toughness. Remember the end of the Jags game last year where he puked on the football field from dehydration? Toughness baby.. toughness. Now run along... I hear Kobe Bryant asking you to defend his off the field sexual prowess.
153 posted on 10/01/2003 8:08:52 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Greg Luzinski
The argument was about McNabb's record in 2001-2002, so I think it rather appropriate to mention his teammates from 2001-2002...you know?
154 posted on 10/01/2003 8:23:14 PM PDT by swilhelm73
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To: kattracks
Actually, his comments were so true, it hit the PC Zombies into a massive hissy fit because he illustrated how convoluted PC mania is. And Rush is right, it's the team that works as one to defeat their opponents, no single man can be the entire team.

Actually, I see this sort of writing from the PC journalists all the time. If a white kid does somethng heroic it is never printed or a side note, but if it is a minority kid, all out reporting. It's ok, but it is so predictable.

And on the other hand, if the perp is a white guy, all out reporting, but if the perp is a minority, no color is mentioned.

It's funny the PC Zombies don't understand, the a human being should be judged by his character and actions, not his color.

155 posted on 10/01/2003 8:34:53 PM PDT by harpo11 (Are we going to sit back and allow PC Zombies to dictate how we live, what we drive, what we say?)
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To: Almondjoy
I have seen McNabb several times and have found him to be unimpressive.

Just like Daunte Culpepper, he can't seem to hit a moving receiver and his main forte' is running (I suppose saying that is racist too.) Well running gets you hurt, just ask Vick and Culpepper. After a quick look at the stats, I'd rank him slightly above a Jeff Blake or Aaron Brooks, and even with a Drew Bledsoe or Tommy Maddox.

He is definitely no Brett Favre, McNair or even a Jeff Garcia.

It was a big mistake for Philly to invest so much in him, just like it was a big mistake for Minnesota to plunk down the cash for Culpepper. We saw what Minnesota could do with a decent passer in the game the last two weeks.

156 posted on 10/01/2003 8:48:09 PM PDT by gore_sux (and so does Xlinton)
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To: JohnnyZ
Once again, the problem that I see here is that there is no evidence that Donovan McNabb is being hyped because of his race... I do not even know that he is receiving unjustified praise.... What I do know is that there was an assumption which can not be supported by fact that Donovan McNabb is being hyped because of his race. I ask again, is it possible that Donovan McNabb is receiving a larger share of attention or being extended unearned courtesies simply because he is a nice guy (unlike Barry Bonds)?

I have no problem with critical analysis of a situation and I think that is what we are doing here. The question is, "How can we make a conclusion based on the information available?" I still maintain that the real problem here was that Rush jumped to a conclusion that appears to be racially biased and does not appear to have sufficient info to support it. He stepped over the line when he brought race into it.

I have been watching sports and political commentary shows for quite some time and I would love to know why it is that we can not discuss sports simply based on the merits of the players. I would be more than glad to discuss race as it relates to sports but I think have someone who brings more politics into the situation than experience and knowledge is getting off point and inserting less important and inflammatory statements simply to get attention...

Perhaps he should dedicate one of his shows to discussing the history of race in sports. We can discuss Jackie Robinson, Enos Slaughter, Joe Garagiola, Segregration, Title IX, or anything else. However, it is irresponsible for him to insert such an inflammatory statement without an opposing view and without having even met the player....
157 posted on 10/01/2003 9:25:53 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: goldstategop
What is different from what is happening to Rush Limbaugh and what happened to the Dixie Chicks?
158 posted on 10/01/2003 9:35:52 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: swilhelm73
First of all, the argument was predicated on McNabb's performance in 2003 as well.

Not in any way intending to be a wise-ass (about this largely irrelvant tangent we've gone on), let me clear something up for non-football junkies.

You wrote "The argument was about McNabb's record in 2001-2002, so I think it rather appropriate to mention his teammates from 2001-2002...you know?"

When people discuss "McNabb's record in 2001-2002", which they were in part here, they're talking about the 2001 regular season and the postseason that followed (which took place in January 2002) + the 2002 regular season and the postseason that followed (which took place in January 2003).

However, the Pro Bowl list you cite is the one related to the 2001, not 2002, regular season.

It follows that McNabb's "2001-2002" Pro Bowl teammates, referenced earlier in the discussion, are those that played with him during the 2001 (not 2002) regular season, which led up to the Pro Bowl which took place the week after the Super Bowl, in February 2002. The proof of this is the inclusion on the list of Jeremiah Trotter, who played (poorly) for the Redskins during the 2002 season (there was no 2002 postseason taking place in 2003 for the Redskins ... tee hee!). This is also proven by the failure to include Jermane Mayberry, Bobby Taylor and Brian Dawkins, Eagle Pro Bowlers last season ("2002-2003 All Pro", not "2001-2002 All Pro".)

Hope that clears things up. Certainly not the most important part of this discussion.
159 posted on 10/01/2003 9:49:23 PM PDT by Greg Luzinski
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To: Greg Luzinski
As far as 2003 is concerned, I don't think anyone is arguing he has been anything but terrible so far. As the example of Warner indicates, a pro player can lose that 'it' that makes them good very quickly - whether that has happened to McNabb yet or not it is far to early to tell, but it would seem that his play this year has led directly to Limbaugh's comments.

As for the Pro Bowl, I was refuting the claim he had no pro-bowl caliber skill level players - he did.

As for the 2003 pro-bowl the Eagles had

OT Tra Thomas
OT Jon Runyan
OG Jermaine Mayberry
TE Chad Lewis
QB Donovan McNabb
DE Hugh Douglas
CB Bobby Taylor
CB Troy Vincent
FS Brian Dawkins
PK David Akers

All of which only makes the point this is not a one man team, and never was, all the stronger. Having seven and then ten pro-bowlers indicates a stacked, and balanced team.
160 posted on 10/01/2003 10:33:12 PM PDT by swilhelm73
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To: dwd1
However, it is irresponsible for him to insert such an inflammatory statement without an opposing view and without having even met the player....

You have no clue what we're talking about, do you? Rush's assertion was two-fold: 1) McNabb is overrated (maybe debatable, but not a controversial opinion) and 2) Sports writers overrate him at least partially because of a desire to see black QBs succeed. (Meeting McNabb has nothing to do with anything.) That second assertion, which is pretty simple and probably would be universally agreed upon were it advanced by a non-conservative, is not even about McNabb, but about the sports writers. You might ask, Has Rush met the sports writers? Peter King at SI (gee, there's a high integrity organization) says all the writers he knows are completely color blind. (Right . . .) But it's very difficult to prove either way, unless Bernie Goldberg were to spend some time looking into it. Knowing the liberal media -- which extends even into sports -- Rush's assertion would seem to be the more believable.

161 posted on 10/01/2003 11:04:14 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: dwd1
What is different from what is happening to Rush Limbaugh and what happened to the Dixie Chicks?

Well, the Dixie Chicks, in their position as singers, criticized the President in a foreign country in war time, and suffered a huge fan backlash; Rush made a debatable assertion about some sports writers in his capacity as sports analyst during the NFL season and is being called a racist by opportunist people who have always hated him and who are trying to ruin his career.

You're right, it's the same!

162 posted on 10/01/2003 11:19:23 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: JohnnyZ
Just for the sake of argument, let us say that he is not a racist. It is like someone who commits a speeding violation. They broke the law but they are certainly not a criminal. However, if they continue to break the law and not pay their tickets, that is a different matter.

I have heard enough comments from him to know that he tends to take a condescending tone at times toward black people and I am not easily offended...


Perhaps, I could concede that Rush Limbaugh is not a racist but he made a racist statement. I do not believe that he should be defined by this one statement but by his history of statements on racial matters before he be judged. That is why I would love to hear his views on title XI, desegregation, etc...

On the Dixie Chicks issue, I agree that they are different based on your position. I was referring to the similarity that Rush and the Dixie Chicks both made statements that did not necessarily have anything to do with the primary purpose for which they were on camera (although I would admit that he did improve ESPN's ratings)...

Just so we are clear, I do not think he should have quit... I do think he should have stood his ground and created a body of work in sports commentary so that we could see a pattern of objectivity and fairness as opposed to a pattern of insensitivity and race baiting.

I hope he reconsiders...


And as a former serviceman, I have a much greater problem with the Dixie Chicks behavior also.... I have stated on several occassions that they misused their celebrity...
163 posted on 10/01/2003 11:58:18 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
I also think perhaps Rush would have been more credible if he had stated specifically who was giving this preferential treatment and overrating Donovan McNabb and stating that the specific writer was in error... Then the statement would have been taken as an indictment of a specific writer or group of writers. This was not done. He made a sweeping generalization about the media and all writers and basically accused them of being unprofessional. That is a pretty "out there" thing to do for someone who has been in sports journalism such a short time....

By the way, your point is valid that perhaps he should have met the writers.... My guess is that he does not know that many of them (though they do have conventions so anything is possible)....

Now if he were going to square this thing away and get his job back (I want to see him have an adequate opportunity to do well or fail), I would like to see him in a round table discussion with a variety of sports journalist and let him make specific statements and answer specific questions (Keith Olberman, Jeremy Schaap, Al Michaels, J.A. Adande, and who ever else the top guns in sports broadcasting are)

Otherwise, I think he did a hit and run and did not stand his ground... I may disagree with him but I can respect a person who stands and defends their view in the face of eloquent opposition....

He should have a chance to defend his position as should those he accused of bias...
164 posted on 10/02/2003 12:09:22 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: kattracks
Judge for yourself, McNabbs stats are dreadful, stats through the end of 2003, 14 touchdowns, 41 interceptions.

 Career Stats  Bio Game Logs Situational Stats Other Quarterbacks Team Roster
PASSING
YEAR TEAM G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
1999 Philadelphia Eagles 12 6 216 106 49.1 948 4.39 63 8 7 60.1
2000 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 569 330 58.0 3365 5.91 70 21 13 77.8
2001 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 493 285 57.8 3233 6.56 64 25 12 84.3
2002 Philadelphia Eagles 10 10 361 211 58.4 2289 6.34 59 17 6 86.0
2003 Philadelphia Eagles 3 3 111 55 49.5 506 4.56 27 0 3 51.1
TOTAL 57 51 1750 987 56.4 10341 5.91 70 71 41 77.5

RUSHING
YEAR TEAM G GS Att Yds Avg TD
1999 Philadelphia Eagles 12 6 47 313 6.7 0
2000 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 86 629 7.3 6
2001 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 82 482 5.9 2
2002 Philadelphia Eagles 10 10 63 460 7.3 6
2003 Philadelphia Eagles 3 3 19 156 8.2 0
TOTAL 57 51 297 2040 6.9 14

 
 
 
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165 posted on 10/02/2003 12:15:51 AM PDT by John Lenin (Remember, we're fighting for this woman's honor, which is probably far more than she's ever done)
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To: John Lenin
This is good.... These numbers could be justification for why one could argue that McNabb is overrated...

Detective Friday said it very well...

"Just the Facts, Ma'am, Just the facts"
166 posted on 10/02/2003 12:23:15 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: John Lenin
This is good.... These numbers could be justification for why one could argue that McNabb is overrated...

Detective Friday said it very well...

"Just the Facts, Ma'am, Just the facts"

I do wish he had appeared on Sportscenter...Might have made a difference in the court of public opinion...
167 posted on 10/02/2003 12:24:40 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
The Dixie Chicks was a fan reaction. What is happening to rush is a media assassination.
168 posted on 10/02/2003 4:59:51 AM PDT by Samurai_Jack (Pacifism by its nature invites escalating acts of war on anyone who practices it.)
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To: Jorge
So, all is speculation and perhaps a waste of time.
McNabb is still an average QB on a team with a stud defense and run game.
169 posted on 10/02/2003 5:31:03 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: SengirV
Jeff blake was a fine QB before the team disintegrated around him. Akili Smith and Shawn King? Please. Neither one is even in McNabb's class. Culpepper and perhaps Leftwich are the real thing. Marlin Briscoe, however, got screwed.
170 posted on 10/02/2003 5:34:44 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: dwd1
Dixie Chicks crapped in their drinking water...their problems came from the actual final consumers of their music. Rush Limbaugh's problem comes from the corporate suite. The true irony is that he defends these gutless pukes!
171 posted on 10/02/2003 5:41:03 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: John Lenin
You're joking right? He has 14 RUSHING touchdowns; 71 passing TDs.
172 posted on 10/02/2003 6:38:17 AM PDT by triplejake
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To: dwd1
"Just for the sake of argument, let us say that he is not a racist."

"Perhaps, I could concede that Rush Limbaugh is not a racist but he made a racist statement."

"I do think he should have stood his ground and created a body of work in sports commentary so that we could see a pattern of objectivity and fairness as opposed to a pattern of insensitivity and race baiting."

Sorry, dude, you're out there on the fringe. Explain, just ONCE, how criticizing white sports writers for building up hype based on race is racist. It is, in fact, the opposite. As for "pattern of race baiting" . . . WHAT in the world are you talking about???

173 posted on 10/02/2003 7:04:43 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: JohnnyZ
I do not think criticizing anyone for anything is wrong... I ask once again, however, why he do not use specifics or go on SportsCenter and debate the issue...

If people are being hyped for racial reasons, then their credibility should be questioned and their integrity improved....

Something I learned in debate class...

He who asserts must prove...

Show me the evidence that there is such a bias and I am more than willing to listen....

I may or may not be on the fringe but I know sports and I know about racism and I know about conservatism.... We can dance this dance all day long...

I am not going anywhere...

And if Rush had taken that same attitude and engaged those who had a problem with what he said in a position where he was not in control of the mike, he would still have his job and I would still like to see him do that because I don't think this is worth losing a job over....


The principle is what is at stake....

Don't make a statement and then not stand up and debate it in neutral territory...

174 posted on 10/02/2003 7:54:35 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
I do not think criticizing anyone for anything is wrong... I ask once again, however, why he do not use specifics or go on SportsCenter and debate the issue...

If people are being hyped for racial reasons, then their credibility should be questioned and their integrity improved....

Something I learned in debate class...

He who asserts must prove...

Show me the evidence that there is such a bias and I am more than willing to listen....

I may or may not be on the fringe but I know sports and I know about racism and I know about conservatism.... We can dance this dance all day long...

I am not going anywhere...

And if Rush had taken that same attitude and engaged those who had a problem with what he said in a position where he was not in control of the mike, he would still have his job and I would still like to see him do that because I don't think this is worth losing a job over....


The principle is what is at stake....

Don't make a statement and then not stand up and debate it in neutral territory...

175 posted on 10/02/2003 7:54:39 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
Those who have heard Rush Limbaugh speak could argue that he has an attitude similar to Trent Lott... We will talk to your top 5% (best educated, most successful) but other than that, you are a useless people... This is the perception shared by many regarding his positions on race... I have said many times that he tends (IMO) to jump to the worst conclusion about black people in his radio shows and it does get trying when he is discussing other issues where I agree 1000% with what he says...

I would like to see him stay on ESPN simply because he could learn a lesson and find a better way to present his views because his analysis of sports has been reasonably accurate.... He simply needs to learn to compartmentalize a little better...

If he walks away from this, he is showing that he does not have the courage to defend his views unless he is control of the mike...

176 posted on 10/02/2003 8:03:12 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: steve8714
Seems like a pretty fair assessment...
177 posted on 10/02/2003 8:06:12 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
You still have not shown ANYTHING to back up YOUR statement that what Rush said was racist.

Nothing.

If people are being hyped for racial reasons, then their credibility should be questioned and their integrity improved....

If people are being hyped for racial reasons, the fault lies in those doing the hyping and has nothing to do with the hypee.

178 posted on 10/02/2003 8:06:30 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: MuchoMacho
He did not serve his country in Kosovo. He served the UN and the Felon and the Felon fired him. On the Felon's orders, Clark also killed a lot of innocent civilians in Serbia.
179 posted on 10/02/2003 8:15:39 AM PDT by Paulus Invictus (RATs are scum!)
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To: Williams
I hope not! Rush is a true conservative and does know his football. We need him as one of the major voices against the RATS and the chaos they bring to politics and the Nation!
180 posted on 10/02/2003 8:21:35 AM PDT by Paulus Invictus (RATs are scum!)
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To: JohnnyZ
Let me explain why it bothers me... He made that assertion that McNabb is overrated simply because he is black and the media gives him special treatment because they have an investment in seeing a black quarterback do good...

I have asked several times and with no reply... Is there a possibility that Donovan McNabb (assuming he is overrated and given preferential treatment) is treated a certain way because he is nice to reporters and photogenic...

What evidence is there (he who asserts must prove) that there is a left wing conspiracy to treat black quarterbacks a certain way....

He offered none and when given the chance to step up and defend the position, he resigned and retreated behind his talk show mike...

Also, when one makes sweeping generalizations about any group without supporting facts and data and attributes negative opinions to an entire group based on the actions of a few, such a person is at best unprofessional and at worst a racist... We can discuss that as long as you like...

Factor in that he has jump to the worst conclusion about minorities and certain people(Kobe, Tupac Shakur, Jim Brown, etc) while defending others that are unsympathetic or that espouse racist views (Trent Lott), ( I was wondering what he had to say about the congressman who killed the motorcyclist), one could argue that he could be perceived as a racist and that he made a racist statement...

You want to say that just because some people agree with him that he is not a racist, work out....
181 posted on 10/02/2003 8:30:07 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
And I am sure that if you asked Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Jeff Blake, Quincy Carter, Daunte Culpepper, Jeff George, Rodney Peete, Randall Cunningham, or any other person who has played the position, I think you may find they are not to happy about it...

It would be the same if I said that Jason Sehorn is overrated and being treated preferentially because he is playing Cornerback (Yes, I know he is moving to safety) and is white(Check and you will see that most starting corners in the NFL are black).... Did Jason Sehorn get treated so well because he is white and playing a position that has seen more black than white players in recent years or did he get rated based on his work and his effort on the field... Or is it that he is married to Angie Harmon and everyone in the media wants to have an affair with her?

Yes, if Michael Irvin made that type of comment about Jason Sehorn, I think I would have to say that he is making a racist statement... Please tell me where I am wrong...
182 posted on 10/02/2003 8:38:21 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
The basic problem that I have is that Rush offered no evidence that Black Quarterbacks are being hyped unfairly and that if they are being hyped unfairly, the primary reason is their race.... He who asserts must prove, not go to their talk show and further their position without opposition and then resign when it gets a little hot in the announcing booth...
183 posted on 10/02/2003 8:41:37 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
The basic problem that I have is that Rush offered no evidence that Black Quarterbacks are being hyped unfairly and that if they are being hyped unfairly, the primary reason is their race.... He who asserts must prove, not go to their talk show and further their position without opposition and then resign when it gets a little hot in the announcing booth...
184 posted on 10/02/2003 8:41:42 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
The basic problem that I have is that Rush offered no evidence that Black Quarterbacks are being hyped unfairly and that if they are being hyped unfairly, the primary reason is their race.... He who asserts must prove, not go to their talk show and further their position without opposition and then resign when it gets a little hot in the announcing booth...
185 posted on 10/02/2003 8:41:54 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
Also, when one makes sweeping generalizations about any group without supporting facts and data and attributes negative opinions to an entire group based on the actions of a few, such a person is at best unprofessional and at worst a racist...

So you're saying Rush is racist against sports writers? I wasn't aware that was a race.

I have previously stated that without an extensive media study it is impossible to prove either way -- heck even WITH an extensive media study it'd be damn near impossible -- that race is part of why McNabb is overrated. But both sides can offer opinions, and that's what Rush did, he offered his. I find it logical based on what we know about White Guilt, the left-leaning media, and backlash against the "blacks can't be QBs" myth. If you think it's more logical to assert that all sportswriters are color blind, the same people who harp about #s of black coaches etc, then you are living in denial or have never read the multitude of race-conscious sports & society columns. Coming from the Boston sports market as I do, I can tell you race is an obsession of sports writers there, and I'll bet it is very prominent elsewhere too.

186 posted on 10/02/2003 8:50:25 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: JohnnyZ
In stating the reasons that McNabb is overrated, he could have given 10 reasons that have nothing to do with media bias or race... In other words, he did not need to bring it up because there is no study or evidence to support his position on this specific athlete...

Concerning race in the media, I believe there is a bias... I think that with celebrities, certain groups are hyped more when they are doing well and kicked harder when they mess up...

I just think that if that was to be the discussion, then let someone state that is the subject, get all the parties together, and work out the drama...

I say again that I want to see him stand up and say what you just said.... However, if he does that, then he is going to have to apologize for what he said because he made an assertion that is offensive (perception) that has no basis in fact (as you just admitted).... It is just his opinion... He could take a lesson from a long list of people who state an opinion and then take responsibility for it....

Going all the way back to the Olympics, Boxing, Baseball, Integration, Title IX, I agree that race is an issue.... I also know that responsible journalists tend to base their opinion and writings based on what has been studied and verified... Not based on that which has been suggested on a talk show... I say again... His mistake is that he has gotten spoiled in the amount of lattitude he is given on his show....

He could make this right so easily by standing up and being interviewed about his views...

That is what the rest of us have to do....(or should he receiving preferential treatment because he is conservative?)
187 posted on 10/02/2003 9:09:55 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: gore_sux
Sigh.. another football fan pretender on the scene.

First off Dante who had a horrible season last year is only in his 4th year in the league. You can't compare that kind of experience with a Brett Favre. None the less good ole Dante has learned from his past mistakes. He has led the team to 3 victories(Gus came in late in the 3rd when Minnesota was already winning). He was hurt by a cheap shot to the back when he was already a good 4 or 5 feet into the end zone. More importantly he's not making the interception mistakes he did last year. He's maturing and a good QB.

A comment about Vick. Vick didn't get hurt scrambling.. he was hurt when he was flushed to the right of the pocket.. he was looking to pass and went down. You might want to review your films again.

Aaron Brooks looks horrible this year. Granted I think he's a decent QB.. but he's struggling this year.. all QB's have bad years.

You think Jeff Garcia is one of the best QB's in the league? I think this automatically disqualifies you from who the great's are. You mention Jeff's name but don't put Peyton Manning in the top 3? Jeff Garcia is not overrated by any means but he is not a top 3 QB.. SF has had the benefits of a sound offense(WR's and RB's) have always been strong. What makes Jeff good is that he is a competitor.. he lays his body out on the line for the win.. just as he's playing with a back that is hurt alot worse then he is letting on.

Bledsoe is an outstanding QB. Even with NE towards the end of his time there he did well with a receiving core that was a joke and a non existant running game. He has shown in Buffalo that his arm is one of the strongest to ever play the game. He's definitely top 3.

McNair could very well be the BEST QB in the league right now. The guy is quick(although he's become less of runner and more of pocket passer, espically this year). No one can argue how tough the guy is. Most importantly he's a winner. His receievers are average at best. Eddie George is just finely starting to get over his injuries and return to old form.. yet the guy wins. At the end of day all that matters is the scoreboard. McNair gets that done.
188 posted on 10/02/2003 10:42:23 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: gore_sux
One more remark since I re-read your post again.

Gus has had a horrible career.. if you want to bank it on stats you might as well compare him to Jeff Blake. To compare Mcnabb to a Jeff Blake you might as well call them both Ryan Leaf.

You probably also think Jerry Rice is an average receiever.
189 posted on 10/02/2003 10:45:12 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: dwd1
The technique used by Rush's enemies has nothing to do with asserting and proving. Only on FR are there reasonable critics. All else are shrill echoes of "Rush is a racist because he is a Conservative".
190 posted on 10/02/2003 10:58:16 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: swilhelm73
Agree with your basic points here, and your inclusion of last year's Pro Bowl Eagles is helpful.

Re. "a pro player can lose that 'it'," the jury's definitely still out on McNabb. (If I'm not mistaken, Warner [note: injury problems] has not led the Rams to a win since the NFC Championship two seasons ago.)

Below is a summary of the five regular-season and postseason performances McNabb has had since he had the pretty bad injury last year.

Divisional Round of last year's playoffs vs. Atlanta last January: OK performance in ridiculously cold weather. Eagles won and advanced in the playoffs.

NFC Championship last year vs. Bucs: Bad performance against eventual Super Bowl Champions and one of the best defenses ever.

Week 1 this season vs. Bucs: Very bad performance against Super Bowl Champions and one of the best defenses ever.

Week 2 this season vs. Patriots: Horrendous performance (regularly failing to see open receivers, fumbles, missing open receivers by 5+ yards) against team that won the Super Bowl the year before last.

Week 4 (Eagles had Week 3 off) this season vs. Bills: Decent performance in Eagles win on the road.
191 posted on 10/02/2003 10:58:55 AM PDT by Greg Luzinski
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To: steve8714
If you want to argue that he has been treated unfairly because of his statement, I have no problem with that... I think he is also being run off because of the politically correct climate gone amuck... I still say that his fate was in his hands. He really should have gone on sportscenter, Larry King, O'Reilly, Hannity & Colmes, anyplace and defended his position....

And bring facts, not a liberal media bias accusation... Otherwise, he is doing the same thing they are doing...

The biggest mistake that he made in all of this is that he as a journalist or commentator became the story....

The story is supposed to be about the game, the crowd, and the players.... Not the commentator....
Going based on personal feeling as opposed to thoughtful conclusions based on data, stats, and extensive personal observation of the players and writers he may make a statement about....

Everyone has the right to their opinion but no one has the right to be wrong in their facts....

Once again, I must quote Sgt Friday... "Just the Facts, sir. Just the facts!!!"
192 posted on 10/02/2003 11:05:48 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Greg Luzinski
Warner has been playing behind a fat, overpaid offensive line that has been a hidden shame here for three years.
Orlando Pace is like a traffic cone on pass plays because he is not in shape, having missed training camp. Early last year it was the same thing.
Because Warner's skills are cerebral(see the field, recognize and react quickly)concussion is an especially tough thing for him to recover from. Every time he is hit he is slammed to the turf, and usually given a little extra. Decent defensive lines have a field day against the Lambs.
193 posted on 10/02/2003 11:09:18 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: dwd1
Concerning race in the media, I believe there is a bias... I think that with celebrities, certain groups are hyped more when they are doing well and kicked harder when they mess up...

So you're claiming that the media is race-biased, just like Rush said. You just agreed with him.

Posit: McNabb is overrated. Many agree with this.

Question: Why is he overrated?

There is no way to "prove" why he's overrated, outside of a massive media survey and psychological examination of sports writers, and even then it'd be iffy. So by your logic, no one can say he's overrated because he has a nice smile, because they have no solid facts to back it up, just an opinion based on observation. In fact, no one can discuss it at all, because their opinions likely can't be proven. No opinions should be allowed on TV or in print unless they can be factually proven. And if someone offers an opinion, they should apologize and be fired. No more discussion of "who's the best center fielder ever" on ESPN. It's opinion.

Oh, and apparently any allegation of racial bias is itself racist.

Do I have your philosophy down to a T or what?

194 posted on 10/02/2003 11:09:36 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: lady lawyer
"Good grief. This wasn't a racist statement. Rush simply said out loud what everybody knows -- there's a racial double standard in the media. Maybe the people doing it are well-intentioned, maybe not. But all he said was that McNabb was overrated, and maybe the racial double standards was the reason."

Corporate America fears nothing more than the 'R' word.
Truth is not a factor. They will cut and run at the slightest inferrence of racism.

195 posted on 10/02/2003 11:09:59 AM PDT by bk1000 (one of these days I simply MUST come up with a decent tag line.)
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To: steve8714
BTW, being racist is not about conservative or liberal as there are racists everywhere you go... Being racist is about jumping to the wrong conclusion about someone based on preconceived ideas about a group.... I am no authority on racism but I will quote that Supreme Court Justice regarding Pornography... " I can't define it, but I know it when I see it...."

One of the reasons that I want to see Rush defend his views is because it is hard being black and conservative and explaining that someone who makes statements that can at least be perceived by some as racist is not what conservativism is all about...

He has ideas which you and I can agree or disagree with but he is not the epitome of conservatism as far as I am concerned....

By the way, he brought the subject up... No one else there was looking for a media bias or race preference discussion... It should have stayed that way...
196 posted on 10/02/2003 11:12:59 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
What I stated is my opinion but I would never represent that and then not stand up and answer to anyone that wants to ask why I said what I said...

I said that I believe there is media bias... I did not say that I believe that the specific bias which he alleges is indeed fact... And you have conceded that there is nothing to prove or disprove his stated opinion... He should not be representing that as fact...

I could also say that I agree with some of the things that the Dixie Chicks said but I sure do not agree with the way they said what they said...

I don't mind being honest and stating my opinion but I tend to keep my opinion to myself or abstain from discussion when on national TV... I would be a lot more responsible to stating facts that can be proven and stating opinions based on facts....

And I certainly would not resign if I made a statement many disagree with without taking on those who disagree with me...

I would not be scared of facing them no more than I am scared of facing you...

197 posted on 10/02/2003 11:21:53 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: JohnnyZ
It started out with Howard Cousel, he kept praising Mohammad Ali, the traitor who converted to Islam. Before, you know it; Ali is now called the most sport reporters the most significant sport figure?

During Ali's fights, there was lots of intimidation to his opponents in order that the chosen champion wins! Sports is full of corruption. Social engineering by the liberals is, and has always been unchecked

198 posted on 10/02/2003 11:31:35 AM PDT by philosofy123
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To: JohnnyZ
Also, concerning my philosophy, you should also state that I try to consider whether my statements would make someone feel as though they are being judged unfairly... Also, I would try not to burn bridges as I would want to be able to talk to and discuss my views with anyone...

Everything you mention can be discussed as far I am concerned. The race issue can also be concerned... What I have a problem with is his discussion of an issue without giving the accused a chance to respond...

When we are talking about the talent of a player and his skills, I think there is this thing called statistics... We have film to show his skill and attitude when playing... We can obtain the opinion of his colleague and opponents to evaluate subjective issues...

All I am saying is that I believe discussions on televisions should be open and honest but also responsible... The best and most accurate information should be considered especially when a sensitive issue such as race (which for some reason, tends to be a sore subject in this country) is discussed....

and I say again, don't hide behind a talk show mike and make assertions that you are not capable of supporting with a reasonable amount of supporting information and commentary...

I do not think you understand me that well. The only thing you see now is someone with a different point of view and you feel a need to say unpleasant things and classify me with some label so that I will go away quietly... Good luck... I am not leaving town just yet..
199 posted on 10/02/2003 11:32:55 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
I don't mind being honest and stating my opinion but I tend to keep my opinion to myself or abstain from discussion when on national TV

That's what analysts and announcers do. They are paid to give their opinions and their analysis, some based on fact, some not.

And you have conceded that there is nothing to prove or disprove his stated opinion... He should not be representing that as fact...

He's representing it as his opinion. Some think it's true, some think it isn't. It would be difficult or impossible to prove it either way.

Rush made very clear where he stood in his resignation statement and in his follow-up on his radio show.

I could also say that I agree with some of the things that the Dixie Chicks said but I sure do not agree with the way they said what they said...

Yeah yeah, you're a flaming liberal, we get the picture . . .

200 posted on 10/02/2003 11:37:22 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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