Better question, who can miss the pattern?
Posted on 10/07/2003 12:05:35 PM PDT by SJackson
You know, if G-d were going to start a new religion a thousand years after Sinai, it would have been nice if He had had at least given a hint about it in the Torah. Of course, if you assume at the outset that the nt is part of the Bible then you see "hints" all over the place. But if you don't begin with this assumption you don't.
Not exactly a new religion, but He did give hints as to what He was doing. He gave a lot of them. Both in the Torah and through the prophets that Moses said Israel must listen to.
You simply dismiss them. To ignore the Prophets is to ignore Moses' command in the Torah.
What is meant, by "The atonement is in the Blood"? Tell me.
What is meant by the to Eve that her seed would crush the head of the serpent. Tell me.
Look at the following...How many hints do you need?
Excerpted from the follwing link: Messiah
This Redeemer is often referred to as "the Messiah". "Messiah" is a Hebrew word meaning "anointed". "Christ" is a Greek word with the same meaning. In the OT, men were anointed with oil when they were appointed to the offices of prophet, priest, or king. Prophecies concerning the Messiah foretold that he would fill all three of these offices (eg., prophet: Deu 18:15-19 , priest: Psa 110:4 , king: 2Sam 7:7-13).
As Jesus' began His ministry, he was anointed with the Holy Spirit (Mat 3:16,17, Joh 1:32-34). He fulfilled the role of Prophet in His teaching. He is Priest in His sacrificial death and in His present ministry of intercession. He will enter fully into His role as King, at His second coming.
The OT contains at least 333 prophecies concerning the Messiah. Many of these were fulfilled at Christ's first coming. The remainder await His return. Let's look first at a few of the prophecies which have been fulfilled.
Subject OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment He would come-
-The seed of the woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4, 1Joh 3:8
-Through Abraham Gen 22:18 Mat 1:1
-Through Isaac Gen 21:12 Heb 11:17-19
-Through Jacob & Judah Gen 28:14 Rev 5:5
-At a set time Gen 49:10 Luk 2:1,2
-At a specific time Dan 9:25-26 Luk 3:1, 21-22
-At a specific place Mic 5:2 Mat 2:1
He would be-
-Born of a virgin (1) Isa 7:14 Mat 1:18,21, Luk 1:34
-Emmanuel: "God with us" Mic 5:2, Isa 9:6 Luk 1:35
-Adored by great persons Psa 72:10 Mat 2:2,11
-Called out of Egypt Hos 11:1 Mat 2:14,15
-Preceded by a forerunner Mal 3:1 Luk 1:17
-Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2, Isa 61:1 Mat 3:16, Acts 10:38
-Born of David's seed Jer 23:5 Mat 1:1
-Heir to David's throne Isa 9:7, 2Sam 7:12-13, Jer 23:5 Luk 1:32-33
-A Prophet like Moses Deu 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
-A Priest after the order of Melchizedek Psa 110:4 Heb 5:5,6
His ministry in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mat 4:12,14-16,23
His entry into Jerusalem Zech 9:9 Mat 21:1-5, Mark 11:7-11
His humility & compassion Isa 42:2,3 Mat 12:15-20
His miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mat 11:4-6
His guilelessness Isa 53:9 1Pet 2:22
His reproach Psa 69:9 Rom 15:3
He was rejected Psa 69:8, Isa 53:3 Joh 1:11, Joh 7:3,5
He was hated by men Psa 69:4, Isa 49:7 Joh 15:24-25
He was rejected by the rulers Psa 118:22 Mat 21:42
Jews & Gentiles both were against Him Psa 2:1-2 Acts 4:24-27
He was betrayed by a friend Psa 41:9 Joh 13:18-21
He was forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mat 26:56
He was sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mat 26:15
His price purchased the potter's field Zech 11:13 Mat 27:3-7
He was silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mat 26:62,63, Mat 27:12-14
He was smitten Mic 5:1 Mat 27:30
He was spit upon & beaten Isa 50:6 Mark 14:65, Joh 19:1
He was crucified Psa 22:16 Joh 19:18, Joh 20:25
He was forsaken by God Psa 22:1 Mat 27:46
He was mocked as He died Psa 22:7-8 Mat 27:39-44
He was given vinegar Psa 69:21 Mat 27:34
His suffering was intense Psa 22:14-15 Joh 19:28, cp. Luk 22:42-44
His garments were divided by lot Psa 22:18 Mat 27:35
He was numbered with transgressors Isa 53:12 Mark 15:27-28
He made intercession for His murderers Isa 53:12 Luk 23:34
He yielded to death Isa 53:12 Mat 27:50
His death: a vicarious sacrifice (2) Isa 53:4-6 Mat 20:28, Rom 5:6-8
His bones were not broken Ex 12:46, Psa 34:20 Joh 19:33,36
He was pierced (3) Zech 12:10 Joh 19:34,37
He was buried with the rich Isa 53:9 Mat 27:57-60
His resurrection Psa 16:10,11 Acts 2:29-32, Mark 16:6,7
His ascension Psa 68:18 Luk 24:51
His place at God's right hand Psa 110:1 Heb 1:3, Mark 16:19
His priestly office in heaven Zech 6:13 Rom 8:34
He is the foundation stone Isa 28:16 1Pet 2:5-7 Gentiles would be converted because of Him Isa 11:10, Isa 42:1 Acts 10:45
Notes to table above: Virgin- The hebrew word for "virgin" (Almah) is used seven times in the Bible (Gen 24:43; Ex 2:8; Psa 68:25; Prov 30:19; Song 1:3; 6:8; Isa 7:14). In context, these passages are referring to young women who are virgins. In the third century B.C., the Jewish scriptures were translated into Greek by Hebrew scholars. When the scholars came to the Hebrew word "almah", they used the Greek word for virgin "parthenos". Matthew (Mat 1:23), quoting Isa 7:14 from the Greek Septuagint translation, used this word (parthenos) for virgin.
Rashi (1040-1150 A.D.), the great medieval Jewish commentator, known for his opposition to Christianity stated, "Behold the 'Almah' shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel. This means that our Creator shall be with us. And this is the sign: the one who will conceive is a girl who never in her life has had intercourse with any man. Upon this one shall the Holy Spirit have power." (Buksbazen, "Isaiah the Prophet", Vol 2, p. 150, as quoted by David M. Levy, in "How Would you Recognize the Messiah?", The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry.)
The sacrificial nature of Messiah's death is clearly shown in Isaiah 53. For a more complete discussion of this important passage, see Isaiah 53: Of Whom Does the Prophet Speak?, by Victor Buksbazen
Pierced- Other OT passages also use this word in regard to Messiah's sufferings. Compare Psa 22:16, and Isa 53:5 (where the word "wounded" is literally "pierced"). These passages predicted Messiah's death by crucifixion, long before this method of execution was know to the Jewish people. (Isaiah wrote about 700 B.C., David wrote about 1000 B.C.)
Many of the above passages apply to both the first and second appearings of the Messiah. Consider the following note (at Acts 1:11) from the "Scofield Reference Bible" (Oxford University Press, 1917):
The two Advents- Summary: The O.T. foreview of the coming Messiah is in two aspects- that of rejection and suffering (as, e.g. in Isa 53), and that of earthly glory and power (as, e.g. in Isa 11; Jer 23; Eze 37). Often these two aspects blend in one passage (e.g. Psa 2). The prophets themselves were perplexed by this seeming contradiction (1Pet 1:10,11). It was solved by partial fulfilment. In due time the Messiah, born of a virgin according to Isaiah, appeared among men and began His ministry by announcing the predicted kingdom as "at hand" (Mat 4:17). The rejection of King and kingdom followed.
Thereupon the rejected King announced His approaching crucifixion, resurrection, departure, and return (Mat 12:38-40; Mat 16:1-4,21,27; Luk 12:35-46; Luk 17:20-36; Luk 18:31-34; Luk 19:12-27; Mat 24; Mat 25
He uttered predictions concerning the course of events between His departure and return (Mat 13:1-50; Mat 16:18; Mat 24:4-26).
That's the equivalent of me demanding that you reconcile every interpretation of, every belief that arived out of and everything that was ever said of the Torah, before you talk to me about it.
The following looks like it was written specifically for you.
Dear Child of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
I like to think of the Bible as God's letter to us. In it, He reveals His character, His creative power, His love for His people, and His plans and purposes for their future. In places, the perceptive reader can almost catch the scent of His perfume. Elsewhere, divine tears surely stain the pages. The narrative is rich and full. The Author did not mince His words to capture some market. Rather, He reveals His heart to capture ours.
Then why, upon completion of the Hebrew Bible, does the reader have the sense that the story is not finished? No doubt, because we are left to ponder prophecies unfulfilled: regarding the Messiah, and regarding the redemption and restoration of Israel.
Is it not true that the writer of a letter has the right to add a postscript? or even to follow up with a subsequent letter to keep the reader up to date as events unfold?
It puzzles me, then, that some are so violently opposed to considering a volume that claims to be the continuation of God's letter. Yes, I am aware of the warning: "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."[Proverbs 30:5,6] This prohibition is against counterfeit scriptures, letters written in God's name, but without His authorization or signature. There is no shortage of such so-called holy writings, which are false. They are the work of the Deceiver, who is a liar and the father of lies. But, there is nothing in this passage that forbids God from adding pure words to pure. If He were to do so, we would expect His new words to flow from the former. Their purpose would not be to change or correct, but rather to complete the message already transmittetransmitted.
The Torah was given to us by God through Moses. It was God's Word to His people: complete in itself, to be kept in the heart, taught to the children, and lived out in every area of our earthly walk. Yet, the Lord told Moses that there would be revelation beyond his writings: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My Words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."[Deuteronomy 18:18] Moses, the Law giver, would be followed by a greater Prophet bringing God's Word to His people.
In the passage from Proverbs referred to previously, God raises some questions. Don't you suppose He intended to answer them? "Who hath ascended up into Heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name, and what is His Son's Name, if thou canst tell?"[Proverbs 30:4]
In a later volume, we read this reply: "No man hath ascended up to Heaven, but he that came down from Heaven, even the son of man which is in Heaven." "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him."[John 3:13; 1:18] This is the subject matter of the New Covenant (often referred to as the New Testament), from which these lines were quoted.
But, you say, we have no need for any new covenant. Sinai's law still stands. True, the Law cannot be broken. Yet, to the Torah, which also prohibits unauthorized additions [Deuteronomy 12:32], God added the Psalms and the Prophets. They spoke in harmony with, and passed the tests required by the Law [Deut. 13:1-5].
Listen to the words of one of them: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." [Jeremiah 31:31-34]
It was to this that Yeshua made reference, at his last Seder before his sacrifice for sin. "This cup," he said, "is the New Covenant in my blood, which is shed for you."[Luke 22:20]
Was what he initiated that day new in the sense of being a departure from God's original intent? Or, was it, rather, the next phase of His plan foretold? David recorded the sound of the son's voice: "Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will O my God, yea thy law is within my heart."[Psalm 40:7,8]
His voice has not changed in the later volume. Listen: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."[Matthew 5:17]
When God fulfills a promise, will He keep secret the news?
You really ought to read the rest of the story.
I will thank you. I find that theology a little rediculous in that according to the qur'an God who know's the future allowed his Word to be corrupted twice but then protected the third version? If He knew the future, wouldn't he protect the first version? And of course I believe He did.
I also don't believe Christians distort the Tanakh, but you can follow that discussion on this thread as well.
And finally as far as the contradiction, I still find a contradiction in that the qur'an acknowledges the previous scripture as true without qualifying that the current versions are corrupt. Why would it acknowedge them as anything but distortions if that is what was intended.
Better question, who can miss the pattern?
Read it for yourself:
041.009 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
041.010 He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
041.011 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
041.012 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
The Quran in English
2+4+2=8 (Math not being an Islamic strong point)
about alexander the great, he is never mentioned by name in the qur'an. "dhul karnain" is mentioned, who some people assume is alexander the great. if what you say is true, then it's probably not him.
Or in other words, the Qu'ran is wrong, but you are willing to change reality to fit the moment.
about the inhericance numbers, you applied them wrong. there are many conditions stated in the Qu’ran which adjust inheritance. you adjusted them, or whoever gave you the idea adjusted them in an incorrect manner
Adjust the fractions, do the math yourself, if you can get 15/12=1 you will make the newspapers.
about the angel of death thing, you're ignoring the rest of the Qu’ran. "nothing happens, unless allah wills it"
So basically no matter what happens in reality, the faith can be adjusted to fit, never will reality have to fit faith. Mighty slippery slope you sit on there. Perhaps God had me write you to save you from your error in theology by pointing out the facts, you ever think of that?
If you take a big brick in your right hand and smash yourself in the forehead is it Allah’s will that you broke your nose instead of Allah’s will that the brick passed thru your head without hitting anything?
Reality, what a concept!
As for the Angel of Death thing, I was not pointing out the last part as a contradiction, I was proving that Allah is the Angel of Death, not God, using the Qu'ran to do it. Do you comprehend anything that I am writing or are you just a mind-numbed robot at this point? Am I just wasting my time?
"...Unlike the inspirational verses of Isaiah or the advanced rationality of Jesus’ parables, the Koran only offers rote learning. To invest so much time in memorising such lines makes it unlikely for you then to question them. The little children taught to memorise the Koran instead of multiplication tables at the madrassahs (religious schools) have no spiritual maturity that would allow them to form alternative questions. At least the little children learning the parables of Jesus are advancing their understanding of how metaphors and analogies can be used to illustrate deeper spiritual truths...."
Similarly, the Biblical words translated as "salvation" in English do not refer to "salvation" as understood in the Christianity-- as Judaism has no belief in original sin, and no belief in an eternal hellfire to be "saved from." Depending on the context, the quotes you use mean different things-- for example, Exodus 14:13 refers to Israel's literal and physical salvation from the yoke of Egyptian slavery (as many "salvation" quotes in the Bible do). Likewise, Hannah's "salvation" was from the stigma of being a barren woman, thanks to the miraculous birth of Samuel.
As I said before, I have no interest or desire to debate theology with you-- nor will I get dragged into a posting match where you trot out tired arguments I've heard a thousand times, and I have to spend hours painstakingly refuting them. I was merely trying to demonstrate the theological similarities between Judaism and Islam-- which are quite prevelant in the underlying faiths, despite the Wahabbi corruption of Islam that has taken hold in recent years.
In case your wondering, my family lived in the Persian Gulf for three years, and I've studied Islam quite extensively-- so I truly understand the tragedy of the Wahabbi corruption. Also, as a Sephardic Jew I'm quite close to Arabian/Middle Eastern culture.
And many of them are our greatest Hachamim, such as H'Rishon L'Tzion Ovadia Yosef. I'd say that it's certainly a big deal to memorize the entire Tanakh and Talmud-- definately demonstrates a high degree of intelligence, and a commendable knowledge of the Law.
The concept of salvation is the same though even if the context is different, we saved Iraqis from brutal dictatorship even as the Lord saves us from sin. What did David mean after sinning when he wrote, "return to me the joy of my salvation"?
The concepts of "atonement", of "substitutionary sacrifice" ("the Lord will provide the sacrifice" from the Abraham and Isaac episode), the concept of having to look to One for salvation (the statue of the serpent on the tree), are all in the Torah. You may claim these aren't part of Judaism, but in my opinion it is now a false Judaism that has broken the covenant and failed to listen to the prophets.
But you are right I don't read Hebrew and I'm sure there is much I could learn from you. But I have it on good assurances that there are ancient Rabbinical writings that predate Christ that do acknowledge these concepts in a Messianic role.
Would you mind looking at the Old Testament quotes in post 155 from Isaiah and Daniel and tell me how Judaism interprets them.
Somebody start it up.
How about 'Everyone for YHVH'?
Do away with the middle man.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.