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Former Anglican priest ordained Catholic priest in San Francisco
Catholic News Service ^ | December 29, 2003

Posted on 12/30/2003 6:16:50 AM PST by NYer

SAN FRANCISCO (CNS) -- Archbishop William J. Levada of San Francisco ordained Father James Livingstone, a married former Anglican priest, to the Catholic priesthood Dec. 20. "He is the first such married man to be ordained a priest for the archdiocese," the archbishop said. Father Livingstone was ordained in the Anglican Diocese of Nova Scotia, Canada, in 1975, and has served in teaching, prison ministry and parish ministry. He was a pastor of U.S. Episcopal congregations in New Hampshire and South Carolina before he moved to San Mateo, Calif., in 1990. He headed an Episcopal congregation there until he made his profession of faith as a Roman Catholic. "Since 1998, when he first petitioned me to consider him for Catholic ordination, he has been patiently pursuing a review of Catholic theology and practice with private tutors," Archbishop Levada wrote Dec. 5 in a column announcing the ordination in his archdiocesan newspaper, Catholic San Francisco.


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From the Catholic San Francisco edition of Dec. 5, 2003

Former Anglican minister to be ordained a priest

Later this month I will ordain Rev. James Livingstone, a married former Anglican minister, as a Roman Catholic Priest. He is the first such married man to be ordained a priest for the Archdiocese of San Francisco. Since 1998, when he first petitioned me to consider him for Catholic ordination, he has been patiently pursuing a review of Catholic theology and practice with private tutors; he has also become involved in lay ministry—and more recently as a deacon—at St. Catherine parish in Burlingame. For the past couple of years he as taught religion full-time at Archbishop Riordan High School. The 1981 decision by the Holy See to make an exception to the general rule of calling only celibate men to priesthood surprised many in the Church. It was made at the petition of the Bishops of the United States in order to accommodate individual clergymen of the Episcopal Church who had reached a decision of conscience that they could no longer remain members of the Church to which they had committed themselves when they were ordained to priesthood in the Episcopal Church. The reasons for this decision are often unique to the individual who makes the request; in every case it involved a conviction that one or other decision of the Episcopal Church raised a new obstacle to their profession of a Christian faith that is Catholic, and in accord with the Apostolic Tradition.

While this “Pastoral Provision” was adopted initially for use in the United States, it has since also been extended to England, and I suppose to other countries where the bishops have requested it. It has also been used, even more exceptionally and rarely, in favor of married clergy of other Protestant denominations.

The Episcopal Church in the United States is part of a world-wide Anglican Communion. It is called an “autonomous province” in the Communion, which means that decisions about articles of faith, ritual, or morality are made nationally; the Archbishop of Canterbury, titular head of the Anglican Communion, has no authority or jurisdiction in the United States. Before the American Revolution, the Church of England (Anglican) sent missionaries to the colonies, but by policy of the Crown, no bishops, or independent dioceses, were allowed. After independence here, the Anglicans established an “autonomous” church in the new Republic, and finally convinced the English authorities to ordain three priests as bishops for service in the United States. The pattern of autonomous provinces corresponding to new nations—often former British colonies—has continued to develop according to the pattern begun by the Episcopal Church here, taking into account the different situations.

The Anglican Communion has always had many adherents who consider themselves “Catholic.” Although its evangelical wing proudly honors the Reformation roots of Anglicanism by favoring the title Protestant (as did the Episcopal Church here until recent decades), many others, especially “Anglo-Catholics,” rejected both the title and meaning of Protestant. We have only to recall Cardinal John Henry Newman, the 19th-century Anglican cleric who became a celebrated Catholic, to recognize who deep the sense of a faith that is “Catholic” runs in many Anglicans. The Second Vatican Council, in its Decree on Ecumenism, recognized this aspect. No. 13 of the Decree says, “Other divisions arose in the West…[stemming] from events which are commonly referred to as the Reformation. As a result, many communions, national or confessional, were separated from the Roman See. Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican communion occupies a special place.”

Although the design of the ecumenical movement envisions a goal of full, organic unity between the Anglican and Roman Catholic communions, and much energy and many resources have been devoted to a many-faceted dialogue to achieve this goal, all parties respect the individual decisions of conscience that may require some persons to “short-circuit” the slow path toward organic unity. For some Anglicans, these decisions have been exacerbated by decisions within the Anglican Communion, especially in the Episcopal Church, to adopt doctrines and practices that depart form the doctrines and practices of the common Catholic Christian tradition, such as the ordination of women as priests and bishops, the acceptance of abortion as legitimate, and more recently, the approval given to the ordination of practicing (non-celibate) homosexuals.

Because the Archbishop of Canterbury has no authority over the other national communities or “autonomous provinces” of the Anglican communion, some Anglicans find the variety of doctrinal positions, ritual diversity, and moral opinions adopted by the Episcopal Church, or permitted by her bishops without correction, to undermine the sense of a Catholic faith, rooted in the teachings of the Son of God, as written in the inspired Scriptures and handed on in the Apostolic Tradition. Hence they wrestle with their conscience, often in long years of discernment over God’s will for them.

The decision to allow married Anglican clergy to serve as priests in the Catholic Church respects not only the decision of their conscience that requires them to profess a fully Catholic faith in the Catholic Church. It also respects their call to ministry accepted in good faith, in their tradition that permitted a married priesthood. In this, their situation should not be compared to that of Catholic priests who committed themselves to a celibate priesthood, but later decided to leave that priestly ministry to marry. In providing this exception to individual married clergymen, the Holy Father and the Bishops wanted to make sure that everyone understood that celibacy remains the normal tradition for priests in the Western church. Among Eastern-rite Catholics (and clergy in the Orthodox Churches), celibacy is required only of bishops; many married men serve as priests.

I would estimate the number of former Anglican and Protestant married clergy who have been ordained Catholic priests since the pastoral provision took effect to be about 100. Over several years I prepared a former Presbyterian minister for ordination in Portland when I was Archbishop there. My successor of ten months, Archbishop (now Cardinal) Francis George had the good fortune of ordaining him after I was transferred to San Francisco eight years ago. His work is well received in the Archdiocese of Portland.

Rev. James Livingstone is a native of Canada, did his undergraduate and seminary studies in Toronto, and was ordained an Anglican priest for the Diocese of Nova Scotia in 1975. He has a diverse background: teaching, chaplain in youth and adult corrections ministry, and parish ministry. He served as pastor in churches in New Hampshire and South Carolina before moving to San Mateo in 1990, where he served as pastor until his Profession of faith as a Roman Catholic. During this time he became acquainted with several priests of our Archdiocese. When his wife Virginia decided to enter into full communion in the Catholic Church, he accompanied her through the RCIA program at St. Catherine’s parish. The Livingstones have an adult daughter.

May I express my personal hope that Father Livingstone will be welcomed by all of us in the Archdiocese of San Francisco when he is ordained a new priest for us on December 20! Archbishop William J. Levada December 1, 2003

1 posted on 12/30/2003 6:16:51 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Congratulations to Fr. Livingstone! I suppose this will only crank up the rallying cry of those who seek to eliminate a celibate catholic priesthood.
2 posted on 12/30/2003 6:18:58 AM PST by NYer (Is Your Mass Valid? http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm)
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To: NYer
I suppose this will only crank up the rallying cry of those who seek to eliminate a celibate catholic priesthood

An exclusively celibate priesthood has already been eliminated, thanks to priests like Fr. Livingstone, but nobody is seeking to eliminate from the priesthood those truly called to celibacy.

In fact, celibacy freely chosen would serve as a great witness.

3 posted on 12/30/2003 7:03:47 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
In fact, celibacy freely chosen would serve as a great witness.

CELIBACY ALREADY IS FREELY CHOSEN. EVERY SINGLE PRIEST EVER ORDAINED IN THE LATIN RITE RITE HAS FREELY CHOSEN CELIBACY If you have any evidence priests are being ordained against their will, produce it or shut-up.

BTW, is there any independent information available that can establish whether or not you are a Deacon? I can't believe you are a Catholic Deacon so obsessed are you with eliminating celibacy as a mandatory discipline and opposing the Pope.

4 posted on 12/30/2003 7:23:06 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: NYer
A remarkable letter in its clarity and comprehensiveness. An excellent treatment of the Anglican issue. This shepherd's flock seems to be in good hands.

It takes a great degree of humility for an Anglican priest of the Anglo-Catholic persuasion to submit to what the Rev. Livingstone has submitted to. This is a good sign for those whom he will serve.

5 posted on 12/30/2003 7:24:03 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: Catholicguy
BTW, is there any independent information available that can establish whether or not you are a Deacon?

When you, and everyone else in the Catholic Caucus, publish your real names and e-mail addresses on Free Republic, so will I.

6 posted on 12/30/2003 7:28:51 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: NYer
Be back later.
7 posted on 12/30/2003 7:47:03 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur; St.Chuck; sitetest; heyheyhey; narses; BlackElk
I just thought of something. According to Canon Law 266 you are a member of the Clergy "By the receeption of the diaconate a person becomes a cleric...." and you have duties you promised to discharge, such as those delineated in Canon Law # 273 CLERICS HAVE A SPECIAL OBLIGATION TO SHOW REVERENCE AND OBEDIENCE TO THE SUPREME PONTIFF and to their own ordinary.

and you have the duty to obey Canon Law # 275 SINCE ALL CLERICS ARE WORKING FOR THE SAME PURPOSE, NAMELY BUILIDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, THEY ARE TO BE UNITED WITH ONE ANOTHER IN THE BOND OF BROTHERHOOD AND PRAYER. THEY ARE TO SEEK TO COOPERATE WITH ONE ANOTHER IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROVISONS OF PARTICULAR LAW.

Does your repeated public opposition to the Pope on the matter of Priestly Celibacy show reverence and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff?

Does you repeated public opposition to the entire Living Magisterium as codified in Canon Law, the Catholic Catechism and the pertinent sections of the Documents of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in the matter of the mandatory discipline of Priestly Celibacy illustrate you, as a Christian Deacon, are building up the Body of Christ united in brotherhood and prayer or does your behavior literally illustrate the precise opposite of what is required of you as a Christian Deacon?

You will not fulfill your own obligations and, in fact, you knowingly and willfully work in opposition to the duties you freely accepted and promised to fulfill yet you repeatedly and publicly demand the entire Latin Rite change its 2000 year old mandatory discipline to satisy your personal agenda - which just happens to coincide with the agenda of the execrable NCR and the rebarbative Feminists and their lackeys, the vow-breaking former priests.

You are having one heck of a Chrismastide, Ace.

8 posted on 12/30/2003 7:49:58 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: sinkspur
celibacy freely chosen would serve as a great witness.

Wait a second...when is celibacy NOT freely chosen?
9 posted on 12/30/2003 7:50:16 AM PST by Desdemona (Kempis' Imitation of Christ on-line! http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html)
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To: Catholicguy
Does your repeated public opposition to the Pope on the matter of Priestly Celibacy show reverence and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff?

It shows the same reverence that my opposition to his position on the death penalty and the war on Iraq shows.

10 posted on 12/30/2003 8:17:29 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
It shows the same reverence that my opposition to his position on the death penalty and the war on Iraq shows.

Again, you are mixing fruit. Church discipline is the pope's domain. Civil responsibilities such as waging war and applying the death penalty are not. It's the same irreverance.

P.S. The pope is right about the DP too.

11 posted on 12/30/2003 8:58:55 AM PST by St.Chuck
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To: sinkspur
Sink, try adopt a more modest approach. Before you begin mounting the public pulpit to denouce the entire Latin Rite and the Pope and the entire Living Magisterium for maintaining an ancient Apostolic Discipline don't you think you first ought to obey Canon Law and discharge the duites you freely accepted.

Or, do your promises have no merit?

It is a bit unseemly to witness those unwilling to fulfill obligations freely undertaken insist others who do faithfully fulfill their obligations change ancient Apostolic Mandatory Disciplines to satisfy your personal agenda - which just happens to match the agenda of others who are disobedient - the NCR, the Feminists, and the vow-breaking priests and nuns they dominate.

Just what sort of Bizarro world do you inhabit where it is ok for you as a Christian Deacon to violate Canon Law and to break promises you freely and willingly made?

What about the matter of integrity? How can you as a Christian Deacon (presuming you are a Deacon) fulfill your role as a Deacon while publicly breaking your promises and insisting others change to fit your personal desires? Have you no shame?

I have dealt with liberals who have no shame or integrity but they were smart enough not to pursue an arguement in which they were being revealed as a phony. They had more self-respect. It appears to me you have as much respect for yourself and your own integrity as you have respect for the promises you have made and are now breaking. You appear to have no shame.

Please prayerfully review Canon # 276 CLERICS HAVE A SPECIAL OBLIGATION TO SEEK HOLINESS IN THEIR LIVES, BECAUSE THEY ARE CONSECRATED TO GOD BY A NEW TITLE THROUGH THE RECEPTION OF ORDERS, AND ARE STEWARDS OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD IN THE SERVICE OF HIS PEOPLE. IN ORDER THAT THEY CAN PURSUE THIS PERFECTION: THEY ARE IN THE FIRST PLACE FAITHFULLY AND UNTIRINGLY TO FULFILL THE OBLIGATIONS OF THEIR PASTORAL MINISTRY...

You clearly are violating Canon Law and the promises you freely made. Please repent and cease the scandalous behavior.

12 posted on 12/30/2003 9:01:36 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: NYer
Great news.
13 posted on 12/30/2003 9:45:15 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Catholicguy; sinkspur; Desdemona
"If you have any evidence priests are being ordained against their will, produce it or shut-up."

To come to my brother's defence to the extent of confirming that what he is suggesting is not totally off the wall:

I assisted at a funeral two weeks ago for a former priest who had been laicised precisely because he had been ordained against his will - it is not dissimilar to the situation of some invalid marriages.

Domineering, pious mother who is desperate to have a priest for a son pushes him in the direction of a seminary. Despite his telling seminary formators that he did not think it was for him, they persuaded him that everyone has doubts like him, and then the subsequent pressure of disapointing mummy was all that was needed to take him right through the system!

I would imagine that as sinkspur has been a deacon for much longer than I have, he will have come across many men who should never have been ordained - I have already! (priests will be far more candid with you when you are in the club!)

I don't think the celibacy issue is the main problem for most of them though. It is the massive numbers of them who could just not think of anything else to do with their lives that is much more shocking - IMHO.

Anyway, we won't be having married priests anytime soon if ever - its not really on the liberal agenda - that is just part of a smoke screen.

A liberal vicar-general recently confided to me that the real objective is to get women into the priesthood and that is what they are working on with several people in the Vatican. The liberals don't want married priests for 2 reasons:

1) The finances.

2) It will slow up progress towards women priests.

There is also the problem that most married men are not homosexuals!!!
14 posted on 12/30/2003 9:50:04 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Catholicguy
Bumping!
15 posted on 12/30/2003 9:51:29 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Catholicguy
1599 In the Latin Church the sacrament of Holy Orders for the presbyterate is normally conferred only on candidates who are ready to embrace celibacy freely and who publicly manifest their intention of staying celibate for the love of God's kingdom and the service of men.


1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities. Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.


1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven." Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord," they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.



16 posted on 12/30/2003 10:00:14 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tantumergo
LOL As always, informative and amusing. As for Sinkspur, I don't beleive he is a Deacon - purely judging by his posts. You and Thomas More are another matter. You two clearly are interested in the life of the soul.

As for those of sinkspur's ilk -deacons or not, these words are apt;

My sons, regard as enemies of the faith those who belittle the pope's authority or who try to minimize the obedience and respect due to his teachings and directives. [St. John Bosco]

17 posted on 12/30/2003 10:11:57 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Tantumergo
To come to my brother's defence to the extent of confirming that what he is suggesting is not totally off the wall: I assisted at a funeral two weeks ago for a former priest who had been laicised precisely because he had been ordained against his

The example is not apt. The problem of someone "forced' into the priesthood will not be solved by a change in the discipline of celibacy. Put another way, everyone properly in the priesthood properly accepted celibacy.

A liberal vicar-general recently confided to me that the real objective is to get women into the priesthood and that is what they are working on with several people in the Vatican.

Good luck to them:

RE: Women priests

In 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful"
(Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church,
Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

This is something that is never going to change.
18 posted on 12/30/2003 10:16:36 AM PST by polemikos (Ecce Agnus Dei)
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To: Catholicguy; sinkspur
I can't believe you are a Catholic Deacon so obsessed are you with eliminating celibacy as a mandatory discipline and opposing the Pope.

That's why a lot of us call him "Deacon" (in quotes). If he really is a Catholic deacon, some of the things he's written on here would likely get him in some serious trouble if his bishop knew about it.

I don't fault him for honestly expressing his opinions. I do fault him for attempting to use his alleged position within the Church to give them added weight--particularly when they run counter to Church teaching/doctrine/discipline.
19 posted on 12/30/2003 10:31:52 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces †)
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To: NYer; Catholicguy
"Although the design of the ecumenical movement envisions a goal of full, organic unity between the Anglican and Roman Catholic communions, and much energy and many resources have been devoted to a many-faceted dialogue to achieve this goal, all parties respect the individual decisions of conscience that may require some persons to “short-circuit” the slow path toward organic unity."

This guy has such a niggardly attitude to converts that I'm surprised he is getting any at all!!!

Since when has conversion to the ONE TRUE FAITH been a "short-circuit" of the "slow path toward organic unity"? This is total b######t - there is no path AT ALL to organic unity with the Anglicans.

They don't even have any notion of unity with themselves - which planet is this stupid ar##ho#e of an archbishop living on? Doesn't he even read Free Republic???
20 posted on 12/30/2003 10:34:47 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: trad_anglican
A remarkable letter in its clarity and comprehensiveness. An excellent treatment of the Anglican issue. This shepherd's flock seems to be in good hands.

Thank you for the positive feedback on Archbishop Levada's comments, regarding the Episcopal Church in America. Shepherding the San Francisco flock is, I am certain, quite a challenge.

It is through watching Marcus Grodi's program, The Journey Home, that I have developed a fuller understanding of the married priest provision. Not all married clergy who convert and seek to serve as priests, are accepted. In fact, far from it! The program is broadcast live and the guest takes questions from callers or via email. On a recent program, the caller was a female minister. She spoke of the challenge confronting her. On the one hand, she had reached the point of conversion; on the other, she held back because the Catholic Church does not recognize female ministers. Grodi handled this excellently, speaking from his personal experience and that of other ministers with whom he is working.

21 posted on 12/30/2003 10:39:21 AM PST by NYer (Is Your Mass Valid? http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm)
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To: polemikos
"Put another way, everyone properly in the priesthood properly accepted celibacy."

Sure - absolutely! Its just scary how many probably aren't properly in the priesthood.

"This is something that is never going to change."

Don't you know that we stopped using language like that at Vatican II? The idea that anything in the Church can never change is just plain rigid intransigence - your kind of Catholicism is a thing of the past! (sarcasm off)

22 posted on 12/30/2003 10:40:14 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
Its just scary how many probably aren't properly in the priesthood.

No argument there. :-o

your kind of Catholicism is a thing of the past!

Where's the Spanish Inquisition when you really need one?
23 posted on 12/30/2003 10:43:54 AM PST by polemikos (Ecce Agnus Dei)
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To: Tantumergo
Perhaps he hasn't heard that ARCIC has passed on! The ARCIC is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! ARCIC's a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! ARCIC's ecumenical processes are now 'istory! ARCIC's kicked the bucket, It's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-ECUMENICAL EFFORT
24 posted on 12/30/2003 10:51:25 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: St.Chuck; Catholicguy
Church discipline is the pope's domain. Civil responsibilities such as waging war and applying the death penalty are not. It's the same irreverance.

Now it makes sense.

Opposition to the Pope's view on celibacy is as serious as disagreeing with the teaching on Transubstantiation, but opposition to the Pope's view on killing somebody is something I can take or leave.

Got it.

25 posted on 12/30/2003 11:06:01 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: polemikos
"Where's the Spanish Inquisition when you really need one?"

Exactly - why is no-one campaigning for Torquemada's canonisation? Nowhere in the gospels does it mention lack of tolerance as being sinful!!!
26 posted on 12/30/2003 11:22:27 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Catholicguy
LOL! - unfortunately that is only the Norwegian Blue ARCIC. The Seattle variety is being resurrected in the spring to release a statement on the BVM.

And then of course there is son of ARCIC - IARCCUM which is just temporarily dormant until the Anglicans can get their butt-fu####s back in the closet!
27 posted on 12/30/2003 11:27:14 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: polemikos
This is something that is never going to change.

If it ever did, it would demonstrate that the Church is not who and what she says she is. It would be the end of Catholicism, and the only place for the orthodox to go would be a sedevacantist traditionalist sect (because, well, they would have been right all along), or the conservative wing of Eastern Orthodoxy (likewise).

28 posted on 12/30/2003 11:33:21 AM PST by Campion
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To: Catholicguy
I think sinky is a female. No deacon. I also do not believe the stories about forced ordinations. Sounds like someone has some psych issues.
29 posted on 12/30/2003 11:51:02 AM PST by johnb2004
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To: sinkspur
Why is it you are always to be found in the middle of a controversy? You are a strange Catholic.
30 posted on 12/30/2003 12:16:24 PM PST by Codie
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To: johnb2004
I also do not believe the stories about forced ordinations.

I don't either. No one can force anyone to do anything without permission.
31 posted on 12/30/2003 12:19:28 PM PST by Desdemona (Kempis' Imitation of Christ on-line! http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html)
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To: Antoninus; sinkspur; Catholicguy
There's an awful lot of vitriol on this thread.

Yes, yes, sinkspur would like to be a married priest. I cannot imagine the pain of feeling called to something that refuses to accept you as you are. (Actually, I can - neither the Phils nor the A's would ever take me as a starting pitcher, but that's another story). I would hate to lose sinkspur on this forum. I think he speaks for an awful lot of folks in the pews, and I appreciate hearing that voice.

I also remember being particularly gratified one time when sinkspur brought his experience of distributing the Eucharist - he stated that it would be nearly impossible for bishops to spot the scandalous pro-abort politicians in the communion line.

I do have a question about you being a deacon, sinkspur. I have been lurking on FR for many years, and I had it in my mind that you were ordained a transitional deacon many years ago, but then received dispensation to marry. Is that correct? If so, you are not currently in an active diaconate ministry - is that right?

32 posted on 12/30/2003 1:09:54 PM PST by old and tired
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To: old and tired
Yes, yes, sinkspur would like to be a married priest. I cannot imagine the pain of feeling called to something that refuses to accept you as you are.

If one "feels" themselves called to a vocation which has requirements one is not willing to accept, then one is being confronted with the truth one does not really have a vocation.

I would hate to lose sinkspur on this forum. I think he speaks for an awful lot of folks in the pews, and I appreciate hearing that voice.

I haven't read anyone calling for his banishment.

I also remember being particularly gratified one time when sinkspur brought his experience of distributing the Eucharist - he stated that it would be nearly impossible for bishops to spot the scandalous pro-abort politicians in the communion line.

Did sinkspur refuse Communion to those proaborts?

If he did, was he positive that proabort hadn't repented at Confession on Saturday and was worthy to receive Communion?

I do have a question about you being a deacon, sinkspur. I have been lurking on FR for many years, and I had it in my mind that you were ordained a transitional deacon many years ago, but then received dispensation to marry. Is that correct? If so, you are not currently in an active diaconate ministry - is that right

This sounds interesting...

BTW, what do you think about Sinkspure violating Canon Law? As a sinkspur-supporting pew denizen, tell me how that is justified. Thanks.

33 posted on 12/30/2003 1:57:49 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: old and tired
"I think he speaks for an awful lot of folks in the pews, and I appreciate hearing that voice."

I assume you mean the voice of dissent and disobedience? One who makes their conscience a teacher rather than a pupil?

What the Church needs are manly, devout priests with testicular fortitude. Men who give sermons where some may walk out. Just as some walked away from Jesus. Truth is a sword that divides. Men who denounce error!
34 posted on 12/30/2003 2:15:02 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: Catholicguy; Antoninus; sinkspur; old and tired
You guys may think that sinkspur is some kind of radical leftist rebel, but when you look at the mainstream of the current Church he is actually much more conservative than your average cleric or layman.

The opinions he expresses on the issue of married priests are not as radical as some senior clergy who have been mouthing off today:


Celibacy of Catholic priests 'breaking down' around the world
By Stephen Bates
London
December 30, 2003

Priestly celibacy in the Catholic Church has largely broken down in many parts of the world, according to Father Timothy Radcliffe, former master-general of the Dominican Order, which has 200,000 members worldwide.

Father Radcliffe, now a monk in Oxford but tipped by some as a leader of the Catholic Church in England, said the church might have to consider ordaining married priests.

On BBC radio he said: "It is clearly the case that in many parts of the world celibacy has actually largely broken down - in many countries in Latin America, parts of Africa, to some extent in the United States.

"If it turns out to be the case that it is being largely ignored or bypassed, then ... a very negative witness is being given; and so we have to ask is it possible now - either we have to provide celibate priests with considerably more support or we have to explore the possibility of them being married."

The Vatican and the Pope have rejected any suggestion of altering the 1200-year-old rule, but there is growing alarm that the number of men training for the priesthood in Europe and the US is declining, and that many are believed to be homosexual.

The Pope blames the decline in new priests and the steady exodus of others to marry on moral decadence and indiscipline in the Western world.

The Catholic Church in England has already relaxed the rule to some extent by letting some married Anglican priests who left the Church of England remain in holy orders. Cambridge professor of the history of Christianity Eamon Duffy said: "There is a real danger in the Western Catholic Church that the clergy will become a profession for homosexuals."

He said many were marvellous priests but "I think everybody sees that it would be undesirable to have the clergy predominantly homosexual."

- Guardian

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/29/1072546470078.html


35 posted on 12/30/2003 2:28:52 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Catholicguy
I had lovely plumage, though, eh?
36 posted on 12/30/2003 3:20:57 PM PST by torqemada ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!")
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To: Tantumergo
Saint Torqemada...has a nice ring to it.
37 posted on 12/30/2003 3:23:14 PM PST by torqemada ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!")
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To: Tantumergo
I see your article as one more example in favor of celibacy. Too often Church leaders or members look to secular answers instead of the divine. Some can't imagine that the Church could survive unless this would change or that would change.
38 posted on 12/30/2003 4:00:25 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: johnb2004
"I see your article as one more example in favor of celibacy."

Puhleeese! - Its not MY article - I just found it on TCR!

I am certainly no fan of Timothy Radcliffe.

However, if I was going to play devil's advocate I might suggest that many traditionalist/conservative Catholics would be happier with queer priests than they would be with married priests! ;)
39 posted on 12/30/2003 4:31:23 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
However, if I was going to play devil's advocate I might suggest that many traditionalist/conservative Catholics would be happier with queer priests than they would be with married priests! ;)

Bada-boom, bada-bing!

LOL!!!!

40 posted on 12/30/2003 4:43:28 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: torqemada
LOL Yes, much better than some of the migratory birds, like the african swallow....

BTW, nice name. I take the opportunity to note that Moses, as the First Inquisitor, bumped-off 47,000 humans in just two days - including women and children; with no trials yet.

Yet listen to our opponents bellyache about poor ol' Torque. It just goes to prove who is the real enemy of those both ancient and modern.

41 posted on 12/30/2003 4:51:45 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Tantumergo
My arguement with him is based upon his violating promises he made and which are limned in Canon Law.

That others are as loony as he is of no consequence to me.

42 posted on 12/30/2003 5:10:30 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy; sinkspur
If one "feels" themselves called to a vocation which has requirements one is not willing to accept, then one is being confronted with the truth one does not really have a vocation.

No one but the Lord knows if a vocation is real. My calling to the Phils, however, is genuine. Why they can't can't use an old man with a fastball probably still in the teens, I'll never know.

I haven't read anyone calling for (sinkspur's) banishment.

No, but a person will only take so much criticism before ignoring it altogether.

BTW, what do you think about Sinkspure violating Canon Law? As a sinkspur-supporting pew denizen, tell me how that is justified. Thanks.

I sometimes agree with sinkspur, and sometimes disagree. But I do think he reflects a large percentage of people in the pew. It would be a disservice to silence any voice not reflective of my own. In the university of all ideas, the truth will necessarily stand out, and the truth will have more impact if every idea has had its say.

43 posted on 12/30/2003 5:24:23 PM PST by old and tired
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To: johnb2004
I assume you mean the voice of dissent and disobedience? One who makes their conscience a teacher rather than a pupil?

That description fits lots of folks in the pews, don't ya think?

What the Church needs are manly, devout priests with testicular fortitude. Men who give sermons where some may walk out. Just as some walked away from Jesus. Truth is a sword that divides. Men who denounce error!

I couldn't agree more.

44 posted on 12/30/2003 5:29:46 PM PST by old and tired
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To: old and tired
The Lord does NOT call one to a vocation if that vocation has requirements the one called refuses to accept. Good Lord. Is that so difficult to understand?

You never did answer about sink violating canon law and breaking promises he made. I guess that means it is ok with you?

Some of you pew denizens worry me :)

45 posted on 12/30/2003 5:32:58 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Tantumergo
I would rather have a married priest than an actively homosexual one. However, I'd rather have a celibate woman priest than a married man. And since the Holy Father has told us we'll never have female priests, I guess at some point the pope will need to decide if we should have married priests. I hope it's after my lifetime, though.
46 posted on 12/30/2003 5:40:05 PM PST by old and tired
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To: old and tired
I do have a question about you being a deacon, sinkspur. I have been lurking on FR for many years, and I had it in my mind that you were ordained a transitional deacon many years ago, but then received dispensation to marry. Is that correct? If so, you are not currently in an active diaconate ministry - is that right?

After a long period of back-and-forth, Rome lifted my laicization a little over two years ago, and I resumed ministry as a permanent deacon. Actually, that's happening more and more; priests who were laicized and whose wives die or have their marriages annulled have also been returning the priesthood.

47 posted on 12/30/2003 5:55:20 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Catholicguy
That others are as loony as he is of no consequence to me.

It appears that optional celibacy is a hot topic among even priests. I'll bet even a bishop or two is in favor of discussing it.

Relax, CG. Discussion about non-essentials is healthy.

48 posted on 12/30/2003 6:03:02 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
After a long period of back-and-forth, Rome lifted my laicization a little over two years ago, and I resumed ministry as a permanent deacon.

Congratulations!

49 posted on 12/30/2003 6:34:04 PM PST by old and tired
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To: Catholicguy; sinkspur
The Lord does NOT call one to a vocation if that vocation has requirements the one called refuses to accept.

You mean I never really had a vocation to pitch in the big leagues if I couldn't pitch to the broad side of a barn, let alone the strike zone? No wonder the Phils never called me up. All those years - All that bitterness! What a tragic waste.

You never did answer about sink violating canon law and breaking promises he made. I guess that means it is ok with you?

It always makes me sad to see anyone violating canon law. If someone does it willfully, it makes me angry. How has sinkspur violated canon law and broken promises he'd made?

50 posted on 12/30/2003 6:46:43 PM PST by old and tired
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