The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[CARepubGal]

Naah. Relics are sort of fascinating to Proddies in a wierd way. It sort of works for us like this:

CRG and Apostolic Prod friend in restaurant in So Cal (Mexican food with some seriously unhealthy but oh so tasty delights). On the walls are the rather bloody pictures of Our Lord Crucified. Apostolic friend: "He is OFF THE CROSS already! Take Him down!" Me: :-) Seriously, it seems (from our perspective) like some of the relics are keeping the Savior ON the cross, not as the Risen Lord. Again it is a perception thing. :-) Hope that helps a little.

[drstevej]

***What's with the current jihad against Catholics?***

No jihad. No more than Luther's 95 Theses were a jihad. Both are points for debate. BTW, have I said anything against a Catholic? I have questioned Catholic practice and tradition. Why do you consider that a jihad?

***Don't you have a sermon to prepare for tomorrow?***

Nope. Off this week.

Why does this historically oriented thread offend you? Are you questioniang Nicholas Cranach's integrity in cataloguing the relics of Wittenburg? Are you questioning Hillerbrand's integrity in his book.

[drstevej]

In its new site the Scala Sancta is flanked by four other stairs, two on each side, for common use, since the Holy Stairs may only be ascended on the knees, a devotion much in favour with pilgrims and the Roman faithful, especially on Fridays and in Lent. Not a few popes are recorded to have performed this pious exercise; Pius IX, who in 1853 entrusted the Passionist Fathers with the care of the sanctuary, ascended the Holy Stairs on 19 Sept., 1870, the eve of the entrance of the Piedmontese into Rome. Pius VII on 2 Sept., 1817 granted those who ascend the stairs in the prescribed manner an indulgence of nine years for every step.

Source

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

An errand to Rome shook [Luther] further. He did not notice the glories of the Renaissance or the reminders of antiquity: instead, he saw the worldliness and levity of the clergy, both high and low.

Luther had his own worldliness to worry about:

"As to divorce, it is still a moot question whether it is allowable. For my part, I prefer bigamy." (De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459)

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

It's not history. It's a hit piece.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Yes, I am questioning the integrity of those men. Did you miss the words "supposedly" and "probably" peppered throughout the piece?

Their allegations defy logic.

[drstevej]

I am tempted to cry "JIHAD."

Instead, I say, Luther's error regarding Phillip of Hesse is unrelated to this thread or topic. A lovely red herring.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Christ on the Cross is the salvatory act. We would never take Christ off the Cross. Portrayals of such border on blasphemy. We have images of the resurrected Christ. Those two events are portrayed separately.

[drstevej]

These relics were "marketed" by the Castle Church as genuine and indulgences were associated with their veneration. That is historical fact whether the articles were genuine or not.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I see. When someone questions your sources, particularly the sower of those seeds, it's a "red herring", yet you are free to bad mouth Catholic practice and belief unconditionally.

The source is unreliable, dishonest and from my reading not a terribly Christian guy.

If you want to play you'd better be prepared to defend your own ideologies. I've got several more quotes from Luther, none of which are particularly attractive.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

According to who? The biased author of this hit piece?

Whether this Church promoted questionable relics or not cannot be determined from this piece but certainly there has been corruption throughout history. No one denies that and good Catholics condemn it.

Speaking of corruption, that Luther was a real prize. Are we allowed to talk about that? I'm guessing not.

[xJones]

Out of charity for our fellow Christians, we ought not to cast aspersions on those who seem to favor relics.

You are so right, and it does cross Christian lines. My late Protestant mother used to receive some of the most shameful gimmicks. There was "the red thread", the put-under-your-pillow prayer cloth, etc., and what looked like form letters saying that God had awakened that particular preacher during the night to pray for her. There is at least one company that specializes in such gimmicks and letters,.... but only God will be the judge of those that prey on the innocent and trusting.

[drstevej]

Exactly, protestant gimmics are reprehensible as well. Away with the Benny Hinns and Robert Tiltons and their gimmicry.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Don't know about altar boys but it looks like he molested women:

Christ "Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." (Mark 10:11-12)

Luther:"As to divorce, it is still a moot question whether it is allowable. For my part, I prefer bigamy." (De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459)

Christ: "And do not be drunk with wine, for in that is debauchery." (Ephesians 5:18) "Keep thyself chaste." (I Timothy 5:22)

Luther: "Why do I sit soaked in wine? . . . To be continent and chaste is not in me." (Luther's Diary)

Interesting interpretation of Scripture there.

[drstevej]

Hans Hillerbrand's text is hardly a hit piece. Lucas Cranach, whom he quotes, was a respected citizen of Wittneberg (he served on the council and was mayor) he was the court painter to Frederick, Elector of Saxony.

A genteel artist, whom you consider a hit man for cataloguing the relics of Wittenburg.

[drstevej]

Molested women ???? Hardly.

[CARepubGal]

Thanks. It was kind of wierd placement (and sort of depressing while chomping on a nacho plate) ;-) Sorry the guys are acting like kids. :-(

[drstevej]

***it looks like he molested women***

Perhaps you were thinking of Innocent VIII (1484 - 1492)

Giovanni Battista Cibo was born in Genoa in 1432, the son of a Roman senator. As a young man he was somewhat licentious and had two illegitimate children, Franceschetto and Teodorina. But after young Cibo took orders he settled down. He became bishop of Savona in 1467, and in 1473 exchanged Savona for the see of Olfetta in Naples. He was created cardinal in 1473 by Sixtus IV. He chose the name of Innocent VIII.

or perhaps...

Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503)

Rodrigo Borgia became a priest (1468) but this didn’t prevent him from forming a close relationship with Vanozza de Catanei who, by the way, was already married. Her husband hung on to the relationship until 1476, by which time Vanozza had borne two of the four children she would eventually have with Rodrigo the Cardinal. These were: Giovanni (1474), Cesare (1476), Lucrezia (1480) and Giofre (1481).

Once Rodrigo decided to seek the Papacy he had to dispose of his mistress. So he made a good choice of a husband for her. He didn’t want to discontinue the relationship with Vanozza, only make it discreet so that his chances of becoming Pope wouldn’t be jeopardized. He obviously was concerned with appearances.

[xJones]

Post any Luther quote you want. He isn't my pope. Did Luther molest altar boys?

Well, no, he married an ex-nun. And Luther didn't deny Christ three times like somebody else did.

BTW, I finally saw the movie Luther. I could see why it made the Catholics mad, because Pope Leo X was a real jewel. God's punishment was for sell, and you could buy indulgences to spring even your dear old grannie out of purgutory. Afterall, you wouldn't want grannie to suffer would you? And of course, the proceeds went to Leo's Vatican building projects. (In defense of Leo, though, he was better than the earlier Borgia pope......but I digest.)

It was historically very interesting, so much so that my elderly Episcopalian cousin and I had to keep waking each other up. :)