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Critics say Gibson film mimics a hateful book
Detroit Freepress ^ | February 19, 2004 | David Crumm

Posted on 02/20/2004 7:15:28 AM PST by madison10

Edited on 05/07/2004 7:13:22 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Despite Mel Gibson's effort to disavow any anti-Jewish influence in his film about Jesus' death, his critics are firing back with fresh evidence that the movie closely follows an anti-Jewish book by a 19th-Century German nun.

In a nationally televised interview this week, Gibson said he based his violent portrayal of Jesus' torture and crucifixion on the Bible. He acknowledged that he has read Anne Catherine Emmerich's 1833 book about Jesus' death, but said he was unaware of anti-Jewish references in it.


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1 posted on 02/20/2004 7:15:29 AM PST by madison10
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To: madison10
What book of the Bible is this in?

"The only role the Bible says the Pharisees have in the passion of Jesus is, in one case they try to warn him that there's a plot against his life," said Eugene Fisher, the spokesman on interfaith relations for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops in Washington, D.C.

2 posted on 02/20/2004 7:17:20 AM PST by madison10
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To: madison10
Incoming...
3 posted on 02/20/2004 7:18:19 AM PST by Fury
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To: madison10
Hhhmmm....seems the Cornerstone continues to be a stumbling block.....
4 posted on 02/20/2004 7:20:20 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: madison10
You do ask an interesting question.

What I keep finding from those who want Mel's head forget that all this was foretold in the Book of Psalms 22

Christ even taught that chapter while hanging on that cross.

Do not be alarmed by those who seek to destroy one.
5 posted on 02/20/2004 7:23:30 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: anniegetyourgun
Well put.
6 posted on 02/20/2004 7:23:40 AM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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To: madison10
That is in the NFG (New Feel Good) Bible read by liberals.
7 posted on 02/20/2004 7:28:09 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: madison10
If the New Testament is a hateful book, what is the Koran?
8 posted on 02/20/2004 7:29:05 AM PST by Reelect President Dubya (Drug prohibition laws help support terrorism.)
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To: madison10
I have an idea. Let's get a bunch of Christian leaders and Jewish leaders together to argue about one man's representation of what happened 2000 years ago. While we're doing that, the Islamists can proceed in their quest to murder us all.

Sheesh...
9 posted on 02/20/2004 7:29:29 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: madison10
"Here's one example. There's this whole brutal scene in the movie in which Jesus' captors hang him over a bridge by chains and then yank him back up again," Rudin said. "That's nowhere in the New Testament. Where did it come from?"

What to do? I guess make NO movie about Christ, as there is bound to be SOMETHING in the movie that is not in Scripture.

The scene is nearly identical to one in Emmerich's book, where she describes a Jewish group, the Pharisees, egging on a mixed group of Romans and Jews to heighten Jesus' suffering.

Not even close. Emmerich's book does not even come close to describing what is written in the previous paragraph of this story.

10 posted on 02/20/2004 7:30:09 AM PST by Fury
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To: madison10
bump for later
11 posted on 02/20/2004 7:32:10 AM PST by The Mayor (No service for Christ goes unnoticed by Him.)
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To: madison10
The so-called "hateful book" is online here:

http://www.emmerich1.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm#PREFACE%20TO%20THE%20FRENCH%20TRANSLATION

I haven't read it myself but I'm willing to bet that it is no more "anti-semitic" than Mel's movie, which is to say it probably isn't anti-semitic at all.

12 posted on 02/20/2004 7:33:26 AM PST by westerfield
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To: Fury
He acknowledged that he has read Anne Catherine Emmerich's 1833 book about Jesus' death, but said he was unaware of anti-Jewish references in it.

The way I parse this is he did use the book but does not consider any of it be be antisemetic.

"Here's one example. There's this whole brutal scene in the movie in which Jesus' captors hang him over a bridge by chains and then yank him back up again," Rudin said. "That's nowhere in the New Testament. Where did it come from?"

    I've not read Emmerich's 1833 book.
  1. Is this scene described in the book ?

13 posted on 02/20/2004 7:37:14 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: madison10
"Until Gibson started talking about Emmerich,"

IIRC, it was in response to a question by Primetime's Diane Sawyer.

14 posted on 02/20/2004 7:42:10 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: af_vet_1981
Have you read the NEW TESTMENT?
15 posted on 02/20/2004 7:42:29 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: madison10
Anti-semitism must be completely repudiated and condemned in no uncertain terms.

This is not in any way in conflict with Jesus Christ and His teachings. In fact, it is consistent with them.

The hideous disease of anti-semitism has never been more thoroughly and wholeheartedly repudiated and condemned than it is in the American Heartland today.

16 posted on 02/20/2004 7:42:49 AM PST by Savage Beast (Whom will the terrorists vote for? Not George W. Bush--that's for sure! ~Happy2BMe)
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To: madison10
Liberals are the most confused people on the face of the earth. Desicrating Jesus Christ or flashing the world at the Super Bowl is free speech and to be celebrated, but showing reverence to Jesus is hate speech??? Wonder what or who germinates such confusion. These people cannot tolerate Christians and always have to bring the race card out of any argument they lose. God Bless Mel Gibson and The Passion!

Pray for W and The Truth

17 posted on 02/20/2004 7:42:56 AM PST by bray (Vote Kerry, 10,000 Al Queda can't be wrong!)
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To: madison10
"The only role the Bible says the Pharisees have in the passion of Jesus is, in one case they try to warn him that there's a plot against his life," said Eugene Fisher....

Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. (Matthew 12:14)

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:45f)

Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. (Matthew 22:15)

I could go on, but let it suffice to say that Eugene Fisher doesn't know Scripture.

18 posted on 02/20/2004 7:43:25 AM PST by Theo
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To: madison10
However, John Dominic Crossan, a Catholic Bible scholar

This man is not a Catholic priest and it is debatable whether he is a Catholic, or even a Christian. In fact, he is not a Christian by any normal definition.

19 posted on 02/20/2004 7:43:35 AM PST by Protagoras (When they asked me what I thought of freedom in America,,, I said I thought it would be a good idea.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
He should have used the Mother Goose or Grimm's Fairytales versions :-}
20 posted on 02/20/2004 7:46:11 AM PST by tiki
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To: af_vet_1981
Is this scene described in the book ?

I don't believe so, but I have not seen the movie. I objected to what was written in the article as being described in the book. The link that was so kindly provided, around pages 125-132, is a good reference.

21 posted on 02/20/2004 7:49:01 AM PST by Fury
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To: madison10
I am starting to get pissed off about these Jews saying that my beliefs are hateful, and that I am bad person because I believe in the Bible.
22 posted on 02/20/2004 7:52:17 AM PST by cpprfld (Who said accountants are boring?)
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To: Protagoras
This man is not a Catholic priest and it is debatable whether he is a Catholic, or even a Christian. In fact, he is not a Christian by any normal definition.

"John Dominic Crossan is a preeminent historian and biblical scholar, perhaps best known to the public at large for his controversial suggestion that Jesus was not buried and that his body may have been eaten by dogs and crows. "

From http://dannyreviews.com/h/Who_Killed_Jesus.html

23 posted on 02/20/2004 7:53:44 AM PST by Fury
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To: westerfield

I think they are saying this was one of the main sources for the movie script. I wouldn't be surprised if the bridge scene is in this book.

24 posted on 02/20/2004 7:53:59 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: cpprfld
I am starting to get pissed off about these Jews

What are you going to do about your anger ?

I recommend prayer.

25 posted on 02/20/2004 7:55:01 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Fury
Crossen denies the divinity of Christ, he therefore is not a Christian.
26 posted on 02/20/2004 7:56:17 AM PST by Protagoras (When they asked me what I thought of freedom in America,,, I said I thought it would be a good idea.)
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To: madison10
Had not the Jewish religious leaders, their followers and the Romans not all conspired to
falsely accuse, falsely judge, falsely crucify our Lord....

The rest of us who would be saved...would not be.....

Jesus could have at any time ask His Father in Heaven to send down a legion of Angels...the most terrifying creatures in the Universe (if you were on the wrong side of them)...to wipe out all of Christs enemies...Jesus Himself said so...

Jesus also said that He laid down His life willingly...that NO man would take it from Him....
Jesus also said it was God the Father's WILL that He (Jesus) be beaten, tortured, spat upon, falsely accused,crucified dead and resurrected...

All that He (Jesus) might be the appropriate sacrifice for the sins of the saved....

There is no one to be blamed....in fact some of Jesus last words were
"Father forgive them, for they know not, what they do...

Jesus also taught us to pray the words "Forgive us our sins ..in accordance to how we..forgive others their sins...for if you do not forgive others... neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your sins...
27 posted on 02/20/2004 7:57:32 AM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Just mythoughts
Have you read the NEW TESTMENT?

Muskogee New Testment by American Bible Society Availability: Out of Print--Limited Availability

I can't say that I have.

The Bible, King James Version Old and New Testaments, with the Apocrypha is available here without cost to you.

You can thank my forefathers (and mothers I suppose).

28 posted on 02/20/2004 8:00:27 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: bray
I believe the LIEberals are truly terrified of what this film may do to people. The last thing they need is millions more people believing in the word of Christ and demanding an end to the "Anything Goes" attitude of the LIEberals. They're using anti-semitism as a smokescreen.
29 posted on 02/20/2004 8:01:53 AM PST by anoldafvet (Democrats: Making the world safe for terrorists one lie at a time.)
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To: af_vet_1981
Practice what you preach.
30 posted on 02/20/2004 8:02:26 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: af_vet_1981
According to the link someone provided above to Emmerich's book, there is a bridge scene (p. 135), but most of us don't know if the exact "bridge scene" is in the movie.
31 posted on 02/20/2004 8:02:30 AM PST by madison10
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To: Reelect President Dubya
I think the article was talking about the book that was
written by the German nun. I doubt they've read the
New Testament.
32 posted on 02/20/2004 8:04:27 AM PST by Twinkie
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To: madison10
Wish there was an "edit" feature...it is page 131, NOT 135.
33 posted on 02/20/2004 8:04:48 AM PST by madison10
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To: madison10
When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

Matthew, 27: 24-25.

How's that for hateful language. A Jewish crowd, screaming for blood. That's the reality. There's no escaping it. To do so is to deny scripture.

In the liberal mind, however, the hate comes not from those who cry for blood, but from those who either record the scene or reproduce it cinematographically.

The good news, however, is that God's mercy is infinite. If we turn to Him and humbly request it. As Mel said in the interview, all of us are responsible for the Crucifixion of Christ. Spiritually speaking. Yet the physical instruments of the act in time and history were Roman soldiers egged on by a Jewish mob.

What I'm getting at here is the distinction between the physical and the spiritual, which seems to be lost on the critics of this movie. All sin is hateful and a turning of one's back to God. And Jesus took upon Himself the sin of all the world in His passion and death. The hatred of the mob symbolizes this sin, but sin is not confined to the mob. It is found with all of us.

34 posted on 02/20/2004 8:04:57 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: af_vet_1981
Then you do not know what you are talking about.

As Christ said many times "Have you not read?".

Have you ever read Psalms 22?

I thank my Heavenly Father for Him giving His instruction.
35 posted on 02/20/2004 8:05:32 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
Practice what you preach.

I pray that he does not sin because of his anger against Jews.

36 posted on 02/20/2004 8:06:21 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
What about your own anger, and what you are accusing others of doing and being because they do not do what you demand?
37 posted on 02/20/2004 8:08:19 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: af_vet_1981
It's unrealistic for the Jewish leaders today to expect films on Christianity to cater to their wishes and perceptions. They apparently want all the blame to be placed on Pontius Pilate (and thru him, the Romans). But the Bible is clear that the Jewish authorities plotted against Jesus. This doesn't mean that the entire Jewish populace at that time should be blamed, and it certainly doesn't mean that Jews throughout history should be blamed as a people. What is the big deal here? It was history, it was preordained by God to happen, and we are ALL guilty because of our sin nature. You and me and everybody on the planet are the reason that Jesus was crucified. WE are the cause.

God loves all of the people on this planet equally. God is grieved by anti-Semitism. That said, let me add: Mel's movie is NOT anti-Semitic. I wish the media would stop fanning this issue.

38 posted on 02/20/2004 8:18:48 AM PST by Ciexyz
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To: af_vet_1981
I have been praying that this movie will be a huge success. But, I think that Abe Foxman and the ADL, has done more to ruin Jewish-Christian relationships than this movie would have.
39 posted on 02/20/2004 8:19:48 AM PST by cpprfld (Who said accountants are boring?)
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To: madison10
According to the link someone provided above to Emmerich's book, there is a bridge scene (p. 135), but most of us don't know if the exact "bridge scene" is in the movie.

I found this one in the link.

The archers still held the ends of the ropes with which Jesus was bound, but it would have been difficult to drag him out of the water on that side, on account of a wall which was built on the shore; they turned back and dragged him quite through the Cedron to the shore, and then made him cross the bridge a second time, accompanying their every action with insults, blasphemies and blows. His long woollen garment, which was quite soaked through, adhered to his legs, impeded every movement, and rendered it almost impossible for him to walk, and when he reached the end of the bridge he fell quite down. They pulled him up again in the most cruel manner, struck him with cords, and fastened the ends of his wet garment to the belt, abusing him at the same time in the most cowardly manner. It was not quite midnight when I saw the four archers inhumanly dragging Jesus over a narrow path, which was choked up with stones, fragments of rock, thistles, and thorns, on the opposite shore of the Cedron. The six brutal Pharisees walked as close to our Lord as they could, struck him constantly with thick pointed sticks, and seeing that his bare and bleeding feet were torn by the stones and briars, exclaimed scornfully: ‘His precursor, John the Baptist, has certainly not prepared a good path for him here;’ or, ‘ The words of Malachy, " Behold, I send my angel be/ore thy face, to prepare the way before thee," do not exactly apply now.’ Every jest uttered by these men incited the archers to greater cruelty.

40 posted on 02/20/2004 8:21:39 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: cpprfld
You're so right. It's a tragedy, really.

The biggest supporters of Israel in the world are evangelical Christians in the United States. Most evangelical congregations have not an ounce of anti-Semitism among them, yet the Jewish leadership in this country attacks them over a movie?

I'm beginning to get so outraged by these attacks as to reconsider my own previously unwavering support of Israel. How many times to evangelicals have to be kicked in the teeth by their "friends" before saying "enough?"

41 posted on 02/20/2004 8:26:04 AM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Ciexyz
What is the big deal here?

I think the big deal is 20 Centuries of History.

Yeshua of Nazareth is no longer on trial.

He was innocent.

Some of those who said they were acting in his name and his authority, well that is a different kettle of fish altogether. If they were a minority why were there so many victims ?

42 posted on 02/20/2004 8:28:10 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: cicero's_son
I'm beginning to get so outraged by these attacks as to reconsider my own previously unwavering support of Israel.

This is what the liberal Jews warned us would happen. They said the RightWing or Conservative Christian supporters could not be trusted, that they would eventually turn on Israel and the Jewish people when their religious views were challenged or not accepted. Your anger, well rage really, has caused you to reconsider your "previously unwavering support of Israel." I don't know if you are an evangelical, but I don't trust you at all. Nothing you proclaim about religion has any credibility with me.

43 posted on 02/20/2004 8:34:36 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
This is what the liberal Jews warned us would happen. They said the RightWing or Conservative Christian supporters could not be trusted, that they would eventually turn on Israel and the Jewish people when their religious views were challenged or not accepted.

You sure let the cat out of the bag.

What did Christ warn us about "DECEPTION".
44 posted on 02/20/2004 8:40:47 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Ciexyz
It's unrealistic for the Jewish leaders today to expect films on Christianity to cater to their wishes and perceptions.

Yes

It is also unrealistic for nonCatholics to expect films on Catholicism to cater to their wishes and perceptions. Mel Gibson is making a movie commensurate with his faith, his view of what happened. Others can criticize or praise, but he will make his own work of art, as it were.

45 posted on 02/20/2004 8:42:12 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: madison10
scenes of angry Jews calling for Jesus' death are linked through Emmerich to centuries of anti-Jewish diatribes.

Wow, that's thin.

Who's Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich? A stigmatic nun being considered for sainthood. I consider her visions a better source for "filling in the gaps" than Crossan.

46 posted on 02/20/2004 8:51:50 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Theo
mega-dittoes - it amazes me when "so-called" scholars don't know what any Sunday School kid knows - the Gospels!
47 posted on 02/20/2004 8:52:00 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Just mythoughts
You sure let the cat out of the bag.

You must be unaware. It is common knowledge among Jews. Liberal Jews continually warn against trusting the "Christain Right" and it is a formidable hurdle for conservative Jews to persuade others that their support for Israel is genuine and unwavering. Indeed ...

48 posted on 02/20/2004 8:55:05 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: af_vet_1981
Now we are going to use your words not mine, just for the record.

"liberal Jews" do not trust Christians, why? they are Christians, and "will turn their back on "Jews" and Israel, when their religion is challenged or not followed".

Challenge with what you yourself said you had never read the New Testment. So what is the challenge. No what you have done because of a silly old man and what he chooses to believe tried to smear a "religion".

Do you understand what you have just said.

You have stated "Jews can't trust these Christians because they believe in Christ and not us".

Now without knowing it you have put a whole different picture on what is going on here.




50 posted on 02/20/2004 9:03:55 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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