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Mel Gibson & Passion: Does the New Testament in the Bible Constitute "Hate" Literature?
February 20, 2004
| Comte d'Maistre
Posted on 02/20/2004 4:59:05 PM PST by ComtedeMaistre
We all need to resolve the controversy over Mel Gibson's movie, "Passion", once and for all.
Mel Gibson used the storyline in the New Testament, as the basis of the script for his movie. Abe Foxman & the ADL consider Gibson's movie as being hateful and anti-semitic.
What is next? Is Mr. Foxman going to call on all hotels all over the country, to remove copies of the Gideon Bible in their hotel rooms? He certainly would not want all those hotel visitors exposed to the "hate" in the New Testament. Didn't you know, according to Foxman's reasoning, a crazed hotel customer may attack Jews after spending one night in an American hotel, because of the "anti-semitic" content of the hotel room Bible?
TOPICS: Current Events
An even better suggestion. Publishing companies that publish Bibles, should submit sample copies of their bible versions to the ADL. This would enable Mr. Foxman and the ADL to edit stuff out of new editions of the Bible, to ensure that the Bible is totally cleansed of racism, sexism, anti-semitism, homophobia, specism, classicism, and all other material that is offensive of Foxman and the ADL.
Heck, Mr. Foxman should be allowed to write material that he thinks is deserving of inclusion in new versions of the Bible, to make the Bible more tolerant and multi-cultural.
Then we can all celebrate "tolerance" "inclusion", and "pluralism".
In Canada it is legally considered hate literature. Infact, a priest was convicted of a hate crime for quoting the bible in a letter to the editor holding an opinion opposing homosexuality.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:00:32 PM PST
by Phantom Lord
(Distributor of Pain, Your Loss Becomes My Gain)
Don't give them any ideas.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:01:23 PM PST
by Sursum Corda
(Pray for the restoration of the Mass of the Ages.)
In some respects it feels as though Mel's movie is receiving as much resistance as the sodomite weddings in San Fran.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:03:59 PM PST
by AD from SpringBay
(We have the government we allow and deserve.)
... Abe Foxman & the ADL ...
These days, Abe Foxman IS the ADL.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:06:44 PM PST
Comment #6 Removed by Moderator
Foxman is relentless. He will never give up. My prediction: There will be a press conference to release some wild horrible charge about Gibson a few days before his movie opens, just as was done with Schwarzenegger.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:13:50 PM PST
Does a history of the Nazis constitute hate literature against the Germans?
posted on 02/20/2004 5:16:41 PM PST
(John Kerry, self proclaimed war criminal, Democratic Presidential nominee)
The ADL is a nonprofit that has taken in 100's of millions of dollars in the past few years. And GOBS of money since it's inception in the early 1900's.
Foxman is just, as usual for him, making as much noise as possible to increase donations. Abe is paid $500K or so a year in salary, benefits, etc. See guidstar.org for more info.
Foxman is in the Joo Bashing business. It's how he makes his money. He's just another Jesse Jackson or Sarah Brady or Larry Klayman.
Gibson is about to release the most watched movie in world history. He is goping to make a fortune. With which I hope he keeps making more of the same type of movies.
That's unbelievable!!! Not that I'm arguing that it isn't true, I'm sure it is. Do you have details of that priest story?
I've heard that too--that quoting the Biblical passage about homosexuality being an abomination is a hate crime in Canada.
Not that we're so great down here. Several years ago a woman I know was threatened with jail for posting fliers on election day quoting the section of the California penal code that makes it illegal for non-citizens to vote. She was flabberghasted. "You mean it's a crime to quote the law in California?"
posted on 02/20/2004 5:20:44 PM PST
Foxman should bother to find out something about the religion of so many of his fellow countrymen.
But, he's not going to. He's a professional bigot.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:25:34 PM PST
This is a great point...especially if we are going ban or revise history to not offend someone. How would the Jews feel if they weren't allowed to tell the story of the Holocaust because it might cause anti-German sentiment? Should we ban the movie "Roots" or the subject of slavery since it may cause anti-white/America hatred? Hell, when Jerry Bruckheimers, Pearl Harbor came out, you had Japanese groups who protested the subject matter because they feared an anti-Japanese backlash. If you can't revise history...demand that it be removed.
posted on 02/20/2004 5:35:57 PM PST
(Kerry may have saved one man but he abandoned thousands of others)
Within my lifetime, I fully expect Christians to be intered in "re-education camps."
The New Testament will be banned as "intolerant" and "hate literature."
posted on 02/20/2004 5:37:15 PM PST
(in an act of defiance, she spoiled her ballot paper)
Not only isn't it hate literature, but it's the greatest message of love in the history of humanity.
Let's pray for all who oppose this movie and the Gospels that inspired it. I think the Lord is going to use this film in a very powerful way, and will bring many souls to Himself.
If this movie is anti-Semitic, then:
Roots is anti-white,
Shindler's List is anti-German,
The Ten Commandments is anti-Egyption,
The list could go on forever,...
posted on 02/20/2004 5:48:42 PM PST
Within my lifetime, I fully expect Christians to be intered in "re-education camps.",
Same here. Remind me again how this all ends? :-)
posted on 02/20/2004 5:48:45 PM PST
("By all that we hold dear on this Earth I bid you stand, men of the West!")
posted on 02/20/2004 6:11:32 PM PST
(in an act of defiance, she spoiled her ballot paper)
And GOBS of money since it's inception in the early 1900's.
The ADL was a fine organization at one time. It didn't really turn flaky until Foxman took over and severed the organization's ties with B'nai Brith.
posted on 02/20/2004 6:39:22 PM PST
Abe Foxman & the ADL consider Gibson's movie as being hateful and anti-semitic.
Actually, no. In his latest interviews, Foxman has admitted that the movie is NOT antisemitic. I am certain that he was gritting his teeth as he said it, but he clearly understood that he had lost that battle utterly and completely. His current bleat is that the movie might inflame and provoke an antisemitic response among a few who would interpret it incorrectly.
As a Jew, I try not to interpret Christian scripture to Christians, a simple lesson that Idiot Foxman seems unable to grasp. I will see the movie to deepen my understanding of the seminal event of Christianity, the environment I live in.
Gibson makes no claim to have filmed a "fifth gospel." What he does claim is that his film is consonant with the four gospels that were his reference and inspiration, and that it represents his view and interpretation of events described therein.
Questions of historical accuracy that do not arise directly and EXCLUSIVELY from those gospels are simply not valid, and do not deserve consideration as criticism of the film. To unbelievers, this is little different from warp drive, time travel, alien invasion, ghosts, dragons, or other fantasies. You either suspend disbelief and appreciate what is presented for its entertainment or illustrative value, or call it balderdash and walk out.
But stories can tell us a great deal, because the imagination is perhaps the greatest of laboratories for human ideas, thought, and interaction ever conceived. It has been exploited since ancient times by great authors. So whether you consider the gospels to be fiction, fact, or somewhere in between (another ancient writing technique,) they remain "the greatest story ever told", and certainly worthy of exposition.
Foxman be damned. He does not speak for me, or for any but his small clique.
Your a little late for that buddy. I has already happened and it will continue to happen. What do you think happens to Christians in Communist Countries? What do you think happens to children in public school? What do you think happened to Christian children in Muslim countries?
Comment #21 Removed by Moderator
Comment #22 Removed by Moderator
Comment #23 Removed by Moderator
This is from a Hal Lindsey column of Feb 5th, 2004, published in WorldNetDaily:
In Canada, it is a violation of that country's hate-speech laws to express my opinion regarding homosexual conduct. A man was recently charged with hate crimes in Canada for posting a billboard that contained Bible references prohibiting homosexual conduct. Similar laws exist in other allegedly "free democracies."
the link is http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36938
posted on 02/20/2004 9:27:24 PM PST
It's well known the Bible has been through countless translations, every time the result of the agenda of religious fanatics.
That is simply not true. The historicity of the Bible is well attested to...and new translations have not been the "result of the agenda of religious fanatics." That is an irresponsible assertion which you would be hard pressed to prove.
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator
The problem with that is what is historically accurate? It's well known the Bible has been through countless translations, every time the result of the agenda of religious fanatics.
AS I mentioned earlier, I'm Jewish, so my view differs from that of most of those who have commented on this subject. I am willing to consider other sources and evidence, for instance.
But for the true believer, the Bible literalist who, like Mr. Gibson, considers the Gospels to be the inerrant, inspired word of G-d, the concept of historical accuracy is confined to maintaining consistency with the four Gospels to the greatest possible degree. Judging it by any other standard is equivalent to criticising a production of, for instance, "Hamlet" for its violence. The fact that he read and studied other sources to learn how others had interpreted the same source material does not detract from the seriousness of his attempt at scriptural fidelity.
What he has done is to take a relatively sparse description of events and add the detail that he envisioned to create the visual scenes, the dialog, and some of the in-between events that are not described but provide continuity for what is there. Literary license? Of course. But did he insert material that is inconsistent with the source material, or omit anything critical to a reasonably complete exposition of the Gospel story?
Comment #29 Removed by Moderator
Jews have a special advantage in their documentation. Each of our documents - the Torah - is a faithful, letter by letter, mark by mark, hand copy of another torah, whose pedigree can be traced back to the earliest such documents known, centuries before Christ. Back to the Word of G-d? We believe it, but we do not actually have handwriting samples from Abraham or Moses for comparison.
Christians also have a gap between events and their record, but both the period they record and the delay is shorter. For one thing, they adopt all of Jewish history and legend as their own. And of course, the events described center on the short life of a single extraordinary individual rather than the history of an entire people.
Gibson has said - and I accept his statement - that his movie is an expression of his faith, presented in the medium he knows best. Da Vinci gave us the Last Supper in his medium, and Michelangelo the Pieta in his, as expressions of their faith, all from the same text. But they might have chosen a different medium today, and only time will tell if Gibson has achieved even a small fraction of their genius working in his medium.
Gibson claims to have made every effort to remain true to the Bible texts, which do not have identical descriptions of the same events. Personal note: Next month I will begin to teach a course in Managerial Economics in a MBA program, a course I took years ago and am frantically trying to get back up to speed on. Economics is based on abstractions and models, which are drastically simplified representations of reality. Any textual description of events is another kind of model, a drastic simplification of the events chronicled. The Gospels do not describe the man three rows back in the crowd, shouting at the guy next to him who just stepped on his foot. But where the text describes a nondescript crowd, a film requires a bunch of individuals like this guy, each portrayed appropriately. After all a picture is worth quite a few words, and at 24 frames per second, 90 minutes or so is a lotta pictures.
So of course he has to fill in detail and provide continuity that is NOT in the Gospels. Does it fit with the source material - no significant contradictions, nothing added that conflicts with the message? And of course, he has to include everything necessary to tell the story. Has he succeeded? I'm eager to find out.
For what it's worth you're a Jew who takes the pain associated with this, kind of like a cross.
Like the Jew that carried the cross for us taught us, kindness and love are verbs and not always easy.
These threads can be difficult as we have idiots on all sides. Thanks for being a trooper and God bless you.
posted on 02/22/2004 12:16:12 PM PST
(<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
I am sick of the lies and character assassination directed at this by the likes of Abe Foxman, who claims to represent a hell of a lot more Jews than he really does. I do not believe in treating anyone with the level of disrespect and dishonesty that we have seen here - or that we have seen from the men seeking to replace the President.
I have listened to both sides of this; one side is loud, disrespectful, and makes no sense, the other has been earnest and gentlemanly. I will judge for myself.
It was over 3 years ago. Probably tough to track the story down.
posted on 02/23/2004 5:55:30 AM PST
by Phantom Lord
(Distributor of Pain, Your Loss Becomes My Gain)
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