Some Catholics show anger at all-male foot washing [Atlanta]

Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 4/9/04 | John Blake

[B Knotts]

He can still impose his male-only directive

Huh?

"Male-only" directive?!?

From my reading of it, the Pope merely pointed out in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis the already-existing reality that the Church has no authority to ordain women.

Now, are you suggesting that it is merely by the Pope's "directive" that women's ordination is forbidden, rather than by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church?

[sinkspur]

The solution here would seem to be teaching priests to follow the bishop's directives, not changing the governmental style of the bishop.

If every bishop in the United States were having this problem over the washing of the feet, I'd agree with you.

There appears to be something about Donoghue's style that is out of sync, not only with his brother bishops, but with his own priests.

Not a good thing for a bishop to be undermined by his priests.

In this case, the fault is not with the priests.

[sinkspur]

Now, are you suggesting that it is merely by the Pope's "directive" that women's ordination is forbidden, rather than by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church?

Knotts, we're talking about including women in the washing of the feet ceremony.

I'll bet your bishop allows women to take part in the ceremony, doesn't he?

[B Knotts]

I misread your post. I thought you were referring to the Pope's "male-only directive," when, upon re-reading it, I see that you were apparently referring to the Bishop's "male-only directive." Sorry.

And, yes, my Bishop probably allows this disobedience in his Archdiocese, since most Bishops do.

[sinkspur]

Let me ask you this:

Donoghue's been Archbishop of Atlanta for eleven years.

During that eleven years, he's allowed men, women, and children to have their feet washed.

Can you see why there might be a bit of consternation when he decides, all of a sudden, to invoke his prerogative of mandating only men, when he's chosen not to exercise it for the previous ten?

[St.Chuck]

Can the proper relationship between the priests of a diocese and the bishop really be compared to the relationship between the bishops and the Roman Pontiff?

That occurred to me as well. Kinds of relationships need not be universally aplied. The relationship with one's spouse is not necessarily the one you would apply to your children, not that priests are children, but there is a marked difference between the pope and the bishops and that of bishops and priests. A creeping egalitarianism to suggest that collegiality be universally applied?

[sinkspur]

The relationship with one's spouse is not necessarily the one you would apply to your children, not that priests are children, but there is a marked difference between the pope and the bishops and that of bishops and priests

Your instincts are correct. Donoghue is treating his priests like children.

Maybe you could answer why Donoghue decided, all of a sudden, to change a practice he has countenanced for ten years!

[gbcdoj]

He's simply reminding his priests to avoid sinning by breaking the law of the Church. Disobedience to the commands of a superior (e.g. the Congregation for Divine Worship) is, after all, a mortal sin according to the Angelic Doctor (ST II-II, 105 a. 1).

The only causes for consternation here should be that he did not condemn it before, that his brother bishops allow the abuse, and that priests think they can disobey with impunity the lawful directives of the Apostolic See and the instructions of their bishop.

The centurion understood how things ought to work in the Church: "For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers: and I say to one, Go, and he goeth: and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doth it". If a superior commands anything which is morally licit and within the superior's sphere of authority, it should be done (ST II-II, 104 a. 5).

As Mr. O'Farrell said, the Church is not a democracy.

[St.Chuck]

I don't know why, but I know that parents can be absorbed with something....say TV, and not notice the child running around with a sharpened pencil in his mouth. When the parent does notice he orders the child to put the pencil down and cease running. The child is incredulous, and can't believe this arbitrary behavior after he had been making laps around the house for ten blissful minutes. While the parent may be wrong for being distracted, he is not wrong for ending the dangerous behavior. Maybe that's the proper analogy for the bishop.

[sinkspur]

Disobedience to the commands of a superior (e.g. the Congregation for Divine Worship) is, after all, a mortal sin according to the Angelic Doctor

Hell for washing the feet of women in an optional ceremony?

OOOOOKAAAAAA.

[sinkspur]

While the parent may be wrong for being distracted, he is not wrong for ending the dangerous behavior. Maybe that's the proper analogy for the bishop.

The proper analogy is this: a company has a rule on the books that expense reports must be submitted on the tenth of the month for the preceding month.

In actuality, the company has allowed the submission of those expenses for up to three months.

One day, a manager decides to enforce the rules, and require submission of the expenses according to company rules for those in his department.

All other managers allow the unwritten three month rule to prevail.

[gbcdoj]

Hell for washing the feet of women in an optional ceremony?

OOOOOKAAAAAA.

I was actually rather surprised by that myself. But the opinion of St. Thomas should not be taken lightly.

[sinkspur]

I was actually rather surprised by that myself. But the opinion of St. Thomas should not be taken lightly

You mean like Aquinas' opinion that the reason masturbation was mortally sinful was because the male semen contained all that was required to conceive a child? That the woman was a mere receptacle for the "life" that the male deposited in her? (Aquinas offered his opinion, ignorant of the fact that the female produced an egg)

[St.Chuck]

All other managers allow the unwritten three month rule to prevail.

Which is their perogative, but the scrupulous manager is doing nothing extraordinary by following the company's rules, and perhaps anticipates results that will benefit his department. Sucking up to the CEO of this company is wise.

[gbcdoj]

17. Among the Scholastic Doctors, the chief and master of all towers Thomas Aquinas, who, as Cajetan observes, because "he most venerated the ancient doctors of the Church, in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of all."(34) The doctrines of those illustrious men, like the scattered members of a body, Thomas collected together and cemented, distributed in wonderful order, and so increased with important additions that he is rightly and deservedly esteemed the special bulwark and glory of the Catholic faith. (Leo XIII, Aeterni Patris)

[sinkspur]

We know Aquinas is great. Augustine was great, too, but his views on predestination have not been accepted by the Church.

[madprof98]

There appears to be something about Donoghue's style that is out of sync, not only with his brother bishops, but with his own priests.

It's sad. He was brought here to put things in order after the very public disgrace of the country's first black archbishop. (Another black archbishop, who died in office, briefly intervened.) Under his tenure, the archdiocese grew tremendously--largely because of the migration of northern Catholics into the Atlanta area and the immigration of many thousands of Hispanics. Perhaps because he didn't need to have a pastoral touch to see such growth in the local church, he never really developed one, and now that he is retiring (he's submitted his mandatory resignation), he appears to be growing more difficult. Today on the Way of the Cross in downtown Atlanta, I talked with people from several different parishes. In every one, the Washing of the Feet ceremony was dropped. And in more than one, the controversy was the topic of the homily.

[sinkspur]

and now that he is retiring (he's submitted his mandatory resignation), he appears to be growing more difficult.

So, as he goes out the door, his final act is to give the finger to his diocese?

Pathetic!

[narses]

The Ft. Worth (NOT Dallas) Deacon opines:

He's changing a practice that has been ongoing for over 20 years, and that is still ongoing in most dioceses around the country. All of a sudden, Donoghue decides to enforce something he hasn't enforced....

20 years is the blink of an eye "Deacon". Obedience is a core Christian virtue, no?

If he wants to act unilaterally, and without explanation, he should not be surprised at this reaction.

Sort of like what the varios liberal heterodox hierarchs have been doing for four decades? Ripping out the kneelers, for example?

If he wants to kill the washing of the feet ceremony in Atlanta, he couldn't do a better job of it if he issued another of his directives.

Or like what conservative, orthodox Catholics have been saying about the heterodox hierarchs and their homosexual antics for years, no? How many seminarians have been runoff by the feminazi types in places like Los Angeles?

The reality is this, women have no place in this liturgy, the Bishop is showing he knows that and the heterodox are squealing like pigs.

[sinkspur]

The reality is this, women have no place in this liturgy, the Bishop is showing he knows that and the heterodox are squealing like pigs.

The bishop has allowed women a place in this liturgy for the past ten years!

The Bishop is retiring, and has decided to stick a finger in the eye of his priests.

Why did he allow women to participate in the washing of the feet for ten years?