Posted on 07/17/2004 6:14:12 PM PDT by Polycarp IV
ATHEISM KILLS.
Here's why atheism is always eventually demonic in its fury against its own ctizens:
The atheist is the consummate iconoclast.
iconoclast.
When Atheism becomes the driving force in government, it starts by marginalizing religion and religious, and seeks to remove images of God from the public.
After its iconoclasm has eliminated all images of God, it goes after all mention of God in the culture, till religion has become only a private affair, never mentioned outside the chapel, church, or synagogue.
Eventually, the iconoclasm of the atheistically driven culture and/or government will no longer tolerate even the presence of the chapel, church, or synagogue, destroying them or converting them to serve state purposes.
The remaining faithful are driven underground, only to be persecuted, arrested, tortured, murdered.
Unfortunately, after the iconoclasm of atheism has rid the culture of all public and private images of God and vestiges of belief, atheism realizes that millions of images of God still exist:
in the eyes of the innocent the image of the Creator is still visible.
At which point atheism, with demonic fury, reveals itself for what it truly is: Demonic. And atheism the kills with a fury that can only be called demonic:
Atheism always kills the innocent, eventually. It is the only way for atheism to destroy all images of God on earth.
The proof is in the numbers...atheistic regimes have killed hundreds of millions of innocents over the last hundred years.
Men are far safer in Christian, Jewish, and even Muslim cultures than in any atheistic culture known to history.
That's right: The atheism we have already seen is far more dangerous than any mythical loathsome theocracy the mainstream media and pop culture uses to marginalize believers.
in the eyes of the innocent the image of the Creator is still visible.
Just some thoughts that have run through my mind for several years...thought I'd put them together.
Good job.
Protestants are the consumate Iconoclasts, withess the vandalism and destruction of religious images during the English revolution by the Roundheads.
So9
fyi...
Do you have a primary source for the table? I'd like to be able to reference this in my biology classes, if possible.
Here's the table link, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF which is part of the massive amount of research available at Freedom, Democracy, Peace; Power, Democide, and War by Prof. RUDOLPH J. RUMMEL, PhD., of the The University of Hawaii
Bloody Mary, that devout Catholic Queen of England, only destroyed Protestant bodies in the fires of Smithfield so that must have been superior by your standards.
.
Bloody Mary, that devout Catholic Queen of England, only destroyed Protestant bodies in the fires of Smithfield so that must have been superior by your standards.
Since I am Episcopalian, I don't think so.
I also don't think iconoclasm has anything at all to do with atheism or with the disintegration of society.
I think the article was more than just a stretch, it was ignorant.
SO9
All true unless you happen to be a first trimester fetus depending on the loving kindness of one in four American women. Well it could be worse there is always China.
I agree in large part with that, albeit I would modify it to say: "...iconoclasm has anything at all to do with is not exclusive to atheism or with the disintegration of society. This can be seen not only in the 16th c. western European Reformation, but also the on-going centuries old battle that took place in Eastern and Russian Orthodox church(s) in re: to icons.
Re: Bloody Mary Tutor, 228 went to the flames. But least we should be tempted to wag a finger bear in mind that quite a new "dissenters" met the fire, and the axe, under the reign of her father (Henry VIII), her sister (Elizabeth I) and even a few under the brief reign of her brother (Edward IV)...and let's not even get started with Scotland and/or Germany! There is blame enough to go around.
Ah, yes: "Then kill them! Kill them all!", cried the distraught young king. "Only do not blame me for the calamity!"
I also don't think iconoclasm has anything at all to do with atheism or with the disintegration of society.
I think the article was more than just a stretch, it was ignorant.
10 -SO9-
______________________________________
Well said.
Bump to the author.
Au contraire, mon frere. I think that protestant iconoclasm has everything to do with atheism by degrees. It starts with a rebellion against authority, ascetic pietism and sola scriptura. Then comes the deistic philosophy, where God is just an idea of a prime mover which started a universe and then went on permanent vacation. Eventually, the scientists will turn their contempt for God (Remember Galileo!! rings their battle cry) towards the "real" origin of the universe. For which there is no more proof for their theories than there is for God's existence.
Meanwhile, back in protestantland, They divide and conjure up more versions of Christianity that have less and less to do with God, Scripture and Heaven and have more and more to do with Man, ideology and this world. As an Episcopalian, you have a bird's-eye view of a Church that has deliberately turned away from the tenets of Scripture with the ordination of Bishop Robinson.
Quite frankly, God becomes no more than window dressing for a house of atheists. And perhaps like the Unitarians and other denoms, they'll officially declare it. Unless, of course, that declaration would fly in the face of their moral relativism.
I presume you feel the same way about Jewish or Islamic iconoclasm.
I also presume you think Catholicism is the heart and soul of society, unless I am mistaken and you are a Hindu or some third brand of idolator.
It is the protestant work ethic and the Jewish work ethic that are the reasons we are not still living in hovels on our masters estates, and dieing at 30.
They go hand in hand with elimination of primitive superstition.
So9
One would hope that you would point yourself toward something more spiritually substantial than material prosperity. I would rather live in a hovel and die at 30 and go to heaven, than live in a palace and die at 90 and go to hell.
But in any case, I think scientific progress in health care and economics has infinitely more to do with that than anything intrinsic to Protestantism, and science is hardly an exclusively Protestant enterprise.
Yes, Prots and Catholics have killed a lot of each other, and it's impossible to believe that many of the leading combatants, including popes, didn't do so using the guise of religion for political, financial and territorial gain. It's still going on in Northern Ireland today.
There was the Thirty Years War between Catholics and different Protestant groups who's princes were trying to break away from Rome and control their own territories sans the greedy, corrupt Vatican. And the Thirty Year War was well after the pre-Reformation One Hundred Years War between the Catholic English and French, which was anything but religiously instigated.
Europe's always been a turf war, and horrible executions were the norm until very recently. In the 'good old days' the British burned Joan of Arc after the Duke of Burgandy sold her to them, the Catholics burned Jan Hus, the Calvinists burned Servitus,.....everybody occasionally held human barbecues to get even or feel righteous.
But no amount of inter-Christian murders ever came within a tiny fraction of the millions that have been murdered by atheist governments in the twentieth century. Read "The Black Book of Communism", for instance, and these were all mass murders committed under the authority of avowed atheists leaders.
However, I also find the "Atheists Kill!" comments followed by the giant eyeball post a little ridiculous. By extrapolation, maybe we should be eyeballing the ACLU for going after our Christmas nativity scenes for many years.:)
Re: "It is the protestant work ethic and the Jewish work ethic that are the reasons we are not still living in hovels on our masters estates, and dieing at 30.
They go hand in hand with elimination of primitive superstition."
Oh yes least I forget, this comment does not reflect well on you either.
I know the official catholic position on images.
I also know the truth of the actual beliefs of the vast majority of Catholics I have met.
So9
Truth is an absolute defense.
So9
TradicalRC: It starts with a rebellion against authority....
Well, back the bash Prot truck up a bit and take two breaths. As much as I'd like to be the cause of misery and woe, IF it really does start with a rebellion, why don't you blame the one who started the rebellion? Perhaps that doesn't feed your need to blame we Protestants.
TradicalRC: It starts with... sola scriptura.
Here is your second problem. I know that those of us who think that no man is infallible and only the Holy Scriptures happen to be the only infallible authority outside of God himself, are actually laughing amongst ourselves. You see, that rebellion, which you claim started the whole thing, can be traced to a rebellion against God's clear revelation to man at the time. God said to the man: "You shall not eat." But, the man, thinking there was some other source of authority, started to listen to the creation over the Creator.
We Sola Scriptura types are the ones who actually restored authority to where it shoud be. Now, I'm sure you think that a few hundred million all in unity behind one voice over and against what the Scriptures reveal make it right. But, that would be no more right than thousands of Protestant denominations, who have also rejected Sola Scriptura, listening to every whim and fancy that comes along. They are all wrong.
You may now return to bashing Protestants & mocking the authority of Scriptures.
Christian.
Leave me out of it, chump. I made no comments about protestantism whatsoever on this thread. Thanks.
Why call him a chump?
I had seen on a thread that it was polite to "ping" the thread starter when you posted. Evidently that was in error. I guess that makes me a "chump."
Christian.
Excellent point... very good way of expressing the virtue of Sola Scriptura.
I'll be interested to see TradRC's response, if any.
Well, no, it does not make you a "chump" -- but Polycarp is right, it's not always necessary to ping the Thread Author when responding to contentious comments made by a Thread Participant. I'm sure that TradRC believes himself to be "Contending for the faith" -- but in this case it was a Contention which Polycarp had neither endorsed, nor criticized, nor commented upon in any way.
Best, OP
It seems, if I understand the unwritten rules of this forum that to ping a poster indicates that you presume they either agree with your comments or agree with the poster to which you direct your comments. I can't understand the reaction otherwise.
It would be very helpful if this etiquette were written somewhere so those of us who don't know would not upset people who tend to take comments more personally. Perhaps a "Chatboard for Dummies" book in the local Barnes & Noble. I could learn all of these things over a cafe mocha with an extra shot of expresso instead of stumbling upon them blindly.
Your brother,
Christian.
Your presumption is correct; however, in this case, you may be unaware that PolycarpIV has previously stated he does not wish to make Doctrinal Contention with Protestants the primary focus of his relations with Protestants on Free Republic. Instead, he prefers to focus on Social Action or Moral Theology issues where Trad-Caths and Fundie-Prots may find greater grounds for agreement than, say, discussions of Ecclesiology (where one is either a Papist, or one isn't -- and there's little ground for agreement).
It's not your fault that you were unaware of this (and, of course, Polycarp's comments are fair game on those occasions when he does wade into discussions of Ecclesiology or Soteriology); but, in his defense, Polycarp has previously expressed disinclination towards being flagged in to Cath/Prot theological disputes (while reserving the right to join in on rare occasion, when interested in a particular point). And, now you know. :-)
best, OP
I thought you were accusing all of us Catholics. I did not realize that this was the reason you pinged me.
That makes me the chump for my knee jerk reaction.
Please accpet my sincere apologies.
Well, as long as we're making dumb, broad statements, I mightas well shoot off both barrels too:
Subject: Some thoughts on the "Big Picture," how we got where we are with the culture of death: It all started with ...the Reformation???
I have seen parts of this idea in other writings, specifically Belloc's drawing the arrival of communism back to the reformation, and Kippley relating the sexual revolution to the Lambeth Conference in 1930, and other earlier developments.
This is in response to an attack on Catholicism by anti-Catholic fundamentalists, in case you wonder at my vitriol.
--Dr. Brian Kopp
Some thoughts on the "Big Picture," how we got where we are with the culture of death: It all started with ...the Reformation???
Basic Bible Only Christian Assumption: "With the Reformation, God Reformed his church back to what it was by restoring the Truth "
This was neither reformation nor restoration but deformation and revolt.
Fifteen hundred years after Christ, someone came along who was overly scrupulous and could not bear the burden of his guilty conscience. This man was a priest, but could not control his sexual passions. He used some abuses in Christ's Church in a remote corner of Christendom as an excuse upon which to hang his revolt.
So he invented a new false gospel to assuage his guilt and foisted it on the world. Bible books that did not fit his new false gospel were simply removed on his own "authority."
Intrinsic to this new false gospel was a rejection of the authority Jesus Christ Himself gave His Church on earth. That authority willed by God, was replaced with a new "authority," private interpretation of scripture.
However, the genie was now out of the bottle.
First man rejected the authority of God to give authority to the very Church He created.
Then man questioned the authority of scripture itself, and whether God was truly Creator.
Then man questioned not only the authority of God but His very existence.
Now man declares, GOD ID DEAD.
And if GOD IS DEAD, the final, natural conclusion of rejection of God's authority started 500 years ago, then man can do anything he damn well pleases to anyone. Might makes right. There is no such thing as "wrong." There is no authority upon which to hang any code of morality.
The twentieth century
In 1930 mainstream "Bible only" protestantism fell into apostasy regarding contraception. Christianity always taught contraception was intrinsically evil. (This was ALL Christians, for ALL time, not just Catholics. The point isn't even open for debate. I can quote hundreds of protestant reformers and subsequent protestant theologians and writers, up to this very day, to prove this was the continual teaching of Christianity.)
This apostasy on contraception is the very root cause of abortion. Abortion follows the acceptance of contraceptive mentality as night follows day. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the US Supreme Court decision that confirmed Roe v. Wade [U.S. decision to permit abortions] stated "in some critical respects, abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception... for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail." As Professor Janet Smith points out, "The Supreme Court decision has made completely unnecessary, any efforts to "expose" what is really behind the attachment of the modern age to abortion. As the Supreme Court candidly states, we need abortion so that we can continue our contraceptive lifestyles."
Furthermore, because mainstream protestantism and "Bible Christianity" in general condones non-procreative contraceptive sex, they have no moral authority upon which to preach against non-procreative homosexual sex. Thus the homosexual agenda juggernaut is directly a result of the apostasy of "Bible Christianity" on the birth control issue, as well as the reluctance of the Catholic hierarchy and priesthood to promote Humanae Vitae and the Church's true teachings on sexuality in general.
And if you can kill the innocent baby in the womb, why not granny in the nursing home? Euthanasia too is becoming widespread, as a result of the acceptance of abortion, which came from apostasy on the birth control issue.
The widespread acceptance in American culture of the culture of death --abortion, contraception, homosexuality, euthanasia-- lies squarely on the backs of those who apostatized on the life issues several decades ago. They apostatized because of private interpretation of scripture.
All because a man 500 years ago placed his own new false gospel of the "Bible alone" and "private interpretation of scripture" above the authority Christ Himself established as the protection against the destruction of the Gospel message Christ entrusted to His Church.
***
Atheism, the contraceptive mentality, acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, the Culture of Death...pity...these are the fruits of the so-called "restoration" that was the protestant "reformation."
Yes, of course, the roots of all evil are in Original Sin.
But Christianity was making inroads against these evils till this revolt's natural consequences, over several ensuing centuries, reversed the trend.
Sorry if this offends my protestant brethren. But I will not be shamed into silence. I'm sick of the ignorance and blindness to the brutal reality of the consequences of this so-called reformation within modern protestantism, and the growing anti-Catholic attitude I'm seeing all too often lately.
The answer does not lie in a further protestantization of Catholicism. We either go back to the ways of God and the order Jesus Himself ordained, a teaching Church with a magisterium and Pope, lead and protected by the Holy Spirit, or we go forward into oblivion and the culture of death.
Clearly you do not. Your earlier reference to a pantheistic faith is clear evidence you have no clue what you are talking about in regards to church teaching nor to individuals.
Clearly I do, just as Martin Luther did.
The position of the Church is Monotheistic, but the position of most of its worshipers is polytheistic. They literally worship saints as demigods, even though this is contrary to church teachings.
So9
So9
The big Catholic influx into this country began in the 19th century. Those who came were the neophiles who wanted a change in culture. They adapted to the protestant culture in this nation, if not the protestant religions.
I think Catholicism and Communism are the only two religions that inhibit enterpreneurial growth and progress of all kinds.
There is no better example than the Phillipines. all the experts expected the Phillipines to be the economic and political leader of the Asian Rim after WWII. They had better connections to the US, they had more English speakers, they alone had a democracy. Instead it became a contender with Myanmar for backwardness and corruption. Today, it is conceded by most that The Phillipines is not so much a part of the Pacific Rim as an outlier of South America.
So9
They are also two primary examples of what happens when people of faith put more emphasis on $$$ than on God.
Something was gained, true. But something precious has also been lost by many.
I'll assume that your religious disdain for images translates into having no family pictures whatsoever.
I did.
We Sola Scriptura types are the ones who actually restored authority to where it shoud be.
Really? Please show me the Scripture that says "sola scriptura".
You may now return to bashing Protestants & mocking the authority of Scriptures.
And you may return to bashing the Church which Christ set up when He gave the keys to Peter, our first Pope.
Furthermore, because mainstream protestantism and "Bible Christianity" in general condones non-procreative contraceptive sex, they have no moral authority upon which to preach against non-procreative homosexual sex.
You mean ... other than the scriptures ?
Though I'm sure that some Catholics would like to blame all of your problems on we Protestants, I didn't mean to imply that all Catholics do. To be honest, the same problems have plagued the church since there was such a thing as a church.
Polycarp IV: Please accpet my sincere apologies.
Hey, no sweat. It is hard sometimes to discern intentions and there is a certain individual preference. Though, I do see that you did decide to at least say something on the subject. I'll go see what you posted.
Your brother,
Christian.
So, if I'm a danger as an atheist, should I conclude that if you, or those like you attain power that I have to worry about you coming for me? For the good of society of course, since I'm a danger to it.
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