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"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; christ; church; eucharist; jesus; liturgy; mass; sspx; tradition; traditionalism
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1 posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:10 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
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To: Patrick Madrid; NYer; BlackElk; ninenot
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Excellent.  Pax et bonum!
2 posted on 07/31/2004 3:33:34 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
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To: Patrick Madrid; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; ...

A timely work. Does it include a chapter on alternative choices of worship for those frustrated with liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo liturgy (such as the Indult Tridentine or Eastern Catholic Rites)?

3 posted on 07/31/2004 3:46:39 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Patrick Madrid

Why focus on this when there are so many serious problems? At the church in my town they tell people that baptism is not necessary and that they will do it to ``appease the grandparents.''


4 posted on 07/31/2004 3:58:33 PM PDT by nickcarraway (a a)
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To: Patrick Madrid
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored...

Uhm, no-thanks. I'll pass on your book.

5 posted on 07/31/2004 4:04:18 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Patrick Madrid
Nice arrogant strawman Patrick. I guess you haven't gotten the memo that the more you bash us the better we become. You'll get it sooner or later.

I didn't think you were a pot stirrer and would have expected much better from you. Next time you're putting on your phony "nice guy Catholic" routine on that silly EWTN show, remind yourself of this piece of garbage - which is unnecessarily inflammatory and untrue straight from the title.

Go ahead and make oodles of ill-gotten money through slander, I hope you spend it wisely.

6 posted on 07/31/2004 4:05:37 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Patrick Madrid; Land of the Irish
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored

I didn't even realize that. Nice partner in crime co-author Patrick.

7 posted on 07/31/2004 4:14:31 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: NYer; nickcarraway
A timely work. Does it include a chapter on alternative choices of worship for those frustrated with liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo liturgy (such as the Indult Tridentine or Eastern Catholic Rites)?

I would be interested in the reasons cited by current prelates for suppressing the Tridentine Mass (indult/non-schismatic) and non-schismatic Catholic traditions. It cuts both ways - liberal extremism forces many Catholics to search for alternatives for worship. In some cases, tragically, this has led Catholics into Protestant fundamentalist extremism.

8 posted on 07/31/2004 4:15:15 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: nickcarraway
Why focus on this when there are so many serious problems? At the church in my town they tell people that baptism is not necessary and that they will do it to ``appease the grandparents.'' 4 posted on 07/31/2004 3:58:33 PM PDT by nickcarraway

The difficulty with splintering in the church is, really, why stop here? Some people would lump Opus Dei, Regnum Christ, the LCs, CUF and various other "Catholic" organizations which are in sync with Vatican II as "extremism" which harms the church.

9 posted on 07/31/2004 4:24:42 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Patrick Madrid

Your effort seems misguided. Traditionalism is hardly a major problem in the Church today.

In the Diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Pilla has a Rainbow Gay Pride banner on his website and a Seminary Professor is leading the fight for Futurechurch.

I am quite sure your time could have been better spent.


10 posted on 07/31/2004 4:26:52 PM PDT by Diago
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To: Patrick Madrid
More Catholic Than the Pope

ALMOST ANYONE is more Catholic than the apostate Karol Wojtyla, or his predecessor in apostasy, Montini:


John Paul II giving "communion in the hand".


John Paul II with the Trilateral Commission (Apr. 18, 1983).


John Paul II with the B'nai B'rith (Mar. 22, 1984).


John Paul II at the Roman synagogue, where he "prayed for the Messiah who is yet to come". (Apr. 13, 1986).


John Paul II with heretics, schismatics and pagans at Assisi (Oct. 27, 1986).


Small statue of Buddha on an altar at Assisi.


Zoom-in on tabernacle area of previous photo.


John Paul II being anointed with the pagan "Sign of the Tilak".


John Paul II at "Mass" in Papua, New Guinea (May 8, 1984) where the epistle is read by a bare-breasted woman.


John Paul II Kissing the Koran


Paul VI gives up the papal tiara, the traditional symbol of the three-fold papal authority. None of his successors would consent to accept it.


Paul VI with his grotesque "broken cross" which is an utter insult to Our Lord.


Paul VI wearing the Ephod of Caiphas, showing that he thinks more of Old Testament faith (Judaism) than Catholicism. No pope before him wore such an emblem.


Close-up of the Ephod in the previous photo. It contains 12 stones representative of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Paul VI addresses the United Nations on October 4, 1965, calling it (and not the Catholic religion) the "world's greatest hope".


Paul VI with the Protestants who assisted in the formulation of the Novus Ordo Missae.

11 posted on 07/31/2004 4:41:38 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Diago
You must remember that it is not the left that is winning away viewers from Madrid's audience, it is the traditionalists. Madrid appears to have picked the topic that will be the most beneficial to himself.

Could you imagine what problems he may have arranging speaking engagements were he to author a book critical of the Left that controls the institutional church in America.

12 posted on 07/31/2004 4:46:06 PM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: Viva Christo Rey

It looks like Jesus Christ, on His Cross, is bowing to the Pope:

I always thought it should be the the other way around.

13 posted on 07/31/2004 5:14:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Patrick Madrid; Land of the Irish
Re: "Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb"

Is this true? I am assuming abortion, and I am hoping if it is, it was a spontaneous abortion.

If true your selection of co-authored will do your cause more harm than good, in so many ways.
14 posted on 07/31/2004 5:29:26 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Viva Christo Rey
The one with the bare breasted woman is nice......

Well at least one white haired gentleman looks like he disapproves. (sigh)
15 posted on 07/31/2004 5:35:32 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Patrick Madrid
Read the responses from the traddies. You're cutting to the quick with your work.

Next, you'll be called a member of the "lavender mafia."

The people who most need to read your work, won't.

16 posted on 07/31/2004 5:41:22 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Viva Christo Rey
In reality I think the Pope is trying to obey Jesus when He said, "Love Thy Neighbor"and St. Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek etc."

I don't think that there is anyone on earth that loves the Roman Catholic Church more than Pope John Paul II.

17 posted on 07/31/2004 5:50:00 PM PDT by M007
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To: M007
"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange god before Me."
18 posted on 07/31/2004 5:57:35 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Viva Christo Rey

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange gods before Me."


19 posted on 07/31/2004 6:00:27 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Land of the Irish
I always thought it should be the the other way around.

A quaint notion, the 'pope' bowing before Chirst. One would have to first actually believe in God were one to hold it.

As for the 'salute' pic, that at least is accurate with Wojtyla hoisting the right fist of the Communists, versus the left fist of the fascists. At least in Turkey. ;-)

20 posted on 07/31/2004 6:03:56 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Patrick Madrid

Not only are you sowing more division between Catholics who are trying to serve the cause of orthodoxy, but your work will risk further alienating those whom the Holy Father desperately desires to see fully regularised within the Church again.

As your work will no doubt help to frustrate the manifest mind and will of the Holy Father, perhaps you should examine your own conscience for the presence of a "schismatic mentality".

Shame on you!


21 posted on 07/31/2004 6:08:41 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Land of the Irish; AAABEST

Can you tell me more about peter vere? I've never heard of him.


22 posted on 07/31/2004 6:09:13 PM PDT by Coleus (Brooke Shields killed her children? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1178497/posts)
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To: NYer
THANKS FOR THE PING!
23 posted on 07/31/2004 6:10:49 PM PDT by Smartass ( BUSH & CHENEY IN 2004 - Si vis pacem, para bellum - Por el dedo de Dios se escribió.)
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To: Tantumergo
Not only are you sowing more division between Catholics who are trying to serve the cause of orthodoxy, but your work will risk further alienating those whom the Holy Father desperately desires to see fully regularised within the Church again.

The Holy Father has bent over backwards, with olive branch after olive branch offered to the SSPX to regularize them.

They don't want to be regularized. They want to suppress the Novus Ordo (just read their posts on this forum) and force the Church to disavow Vatican II's Decrees on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty.

Anybody with any sense knows the Pope is not going to fold on either of those.

Many seeking people are being led into schism and sedevacantism by the integrists.

No, Madrid's work is a perfect counterbalance to The Remnant, Latin Mass Magazine, and other extremist publications.

24 posted on 07/31/2004 6:14:40 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

They are against it, but I don't know a specific "excuse." Many bishops seem to approve it only as long as only older people go. They don't want any young people there. In Hawaii, the bishop allowed an indult, but he made the petitioners promise to "keep it a secret." So, even if you called the chirch,they wouldn't tell you about it.


25 posted on 07/31/2004 6:18:06 PM PDT by nickcarraway (a a)
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To: Mark in the Old South; Viva Christo Rey
Oh, my goodness gracious, that picture is really something to behold, isn't it? And that broken Cross sends a chill down my spine as well.

The Lord does give one instincts to know what should be rebelled against, that's for certain. I had the same reaction the first time I went to Mass and saw the Altar had been turned into a stage.

I keep repeating to myself that the Church is the Body of Christ, and nothing that any man who inhabits the earthly and human community thereof has the power to defile it. But I still say out loud, Lord help us!

26 posted on 07/31/2004 6:24:54 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: Coleus; Land of the Irish
Can you tell me more about peter vere? I've never heard of him.

He is a 'former' satanist, who became an sspx-er, then indult, then charismatic. I think his first incarnation is the dominant one, especially in the charisms manifest in the other repeated 're-inventions' of himself. Along the way he studied in Canada at the most liberal canon law factory in the entire disgusting novus ordo swamp. Pity he forgot the Faith in the process.

27 posted on 07/31/2004 6:25:24 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Tantumergo

Excellent post, and very cool username.


28 posted on 07/31/2004 6:26:09 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: Patrick Madrid; nickcarraway; Land of the Irish; Diago; Bellarmine; Mark in the Old South; ...
Take a look at Patrick's posting history. He's posted esactly 10 times since March and nearly every post is devoted to promoting HIMSELF. His blog, His (crummy) show, His trad bashing book, His speaking engagements.

Don't pretend you don't hear us Patrick.

29 posted on 07/31/2004 6:26:23 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: AAABEST
If he wrote a book in favor of the SSPX, you'd be fawning all over him, no matter what his posting history reflected.

LOL!!!

30 posted on 07/31/2004 6:28:24 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: AAABEST
Don't pretend you don't hear us Patrick.

Hears you? He likely got half the material for his book off the looney bin that is radical traditionalism on Free Republic.

31 posted on 07/31/2004 6:29:40 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Coleus
Can you tell me more about peter vere? I've never heard of him.

He is a revert from the SSPX schism, the youngest canon lawyer in North America, and also Envoy Encore's token Canadian. He obtained his ecclesiastical licentiate and civil Master's Degree in canon law from Saint Paul University in Ottawa, Canada. As a Catholic writer, canonist and apologist, Pete's work has appeared in numerous Catholic publications, including Surprised by Truth 3. Pete is also the original canon law blogger, having founded the Canon Law Blog which was later rolled into Catholic Light. In addition to blogging for Envoy Encore, he remains an active contributor to Catholic Light and is also developing a blog for the an international group of canon lawyers who maintain a Canon Law Discussion Group. Currently, Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya and they have two children.

This is what has stirred up the SSPX bee's nest.

A CANONICAL HISTORY OF THE LEFEBVRITE SCHISM

32 posted on 07/31/2004 6:32:53 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Land of the Irish; Coleus
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored...

A slanderous accusation is normally accompanied by a a link to supporting documentation from an independent 3rd party. Put up or shut up!

33 posted on 07/31/2004 6:36:34 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: AAABEST
He's posted esactly 10 times since March and nearly every post is devoted to promoting HIMSELF.

Gee I wondered if someone here was going to make this point.

34 posted on 07/31/2004 6:39:00 PM PDT by MarMema (silver lining Opie is fine with me!)
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To: sinkspur

"The Holy Father has bent over backwards, with olive branch after olive branch offered to the SSPX to regularize them."

He has certainly made some major moves considering the forces within the Vatican and the liberal European and American bishops' conferences which oppose him. All the more reason for not stirring the s**t any further!

"They want to suppress the Novus Ordo (just read their posts on this forum) and force the Church to disavow Vatican II's Decrees on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty."

There are many in the N.O. clergy - including Cardinals and Archbishops - who want exactly the same. Heck, Archbishop John Foley and Cardinal Pell are even spearheading a counter attack against Gaudium et Spes.

"Many seeking people are being led into schism and sedevacantism by the integrists"

Far many more are being led into de facto schism and heresy by bishops like my own and the majority of the US hierarchy. Madrid would help far more souls if he turned his guns on them.

As for sedevacantism, the See might as well be vacant for all the obedience that most bishops give it these days - not that the SSPX supports sedevacantism anyway.


35 posted on 07/31/2004 6:41:36 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: NYer

"Currently, Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya and they have two children."

"Currently"??? Are we to take it that this is just a temporary arrangement?


36 posted on 07/31/2004 6:44:24 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Patrick Madrid; Land of the Irish; Mark in the Old South
Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb

I assume this was when vere was a self-admitted satanist - or did he aquire new 'skills' as a 'canon-lawyer'?

38 posted on 07/31/2004 6:56:56 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Patrick Madrid
I went to a SSPX Mass once. It was beautiful yet I felt so lonely there. Right across the street there was an Indult Latin Mass. I wondered how the people at SSPX could stay away from the Mass that was connected with Rome.

I could never leave the Holy See. I would not even go to church at all if I did not have the Pope and the Magisterium to lead and guide me.

Another thing that bothers me is the way the papers like the Remnant are constantly gossiping about the bishops. Isn't gossiping some sort of a sin? The terrible part of gossiping is that the more you read the more you need. It has to keep getting more and more outrageous or the reader is not happy.

39 posted on 07/31/2004 7:00:52 PM PDT by M007
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To: Land of the Irish
You are misrepresenting Vere.

His girlfriend had the abortion when the two of them were satanists, not a part of any Church.

St. Paul applauded the stoning of St. Stephen.

Should he be dogged about that?

40 posted on 07/31/2004 7:01:39 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Land of the Irish

Thanks for the 'right out loud' laugh, but is this the 'co-author' guy?


41 posted on 07/31/2004 7:03:06 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: GirlShortstop; All

The headline gets it wrong. It should be: The Pope thinks he's more Catholic than the all POPES and COUNCILS of the preconciliar Church. The quarrel of these writers is not with traditionalists, it's with the Catholic Church itself--and its teaching Magisterium which John Paul II routinely ignores. It is the Catholic Magisterium which warned against the heresies of indifferentism and syncretism, not traditionalist Catholics! And it's the First Commandment which prohibits worshiping false gods--not us. These writers have a quarrel with true Catholicism, not with us.


42 posted on 07/31/2004 7:08:08 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: NYer

Their quarrel is with Catholicism, not with traditionalists. JPII would have no critics if he followed the precepts of preconciliar popes and councils. But he doesn't--he ignores or violates these.


43 posted on 07/31/2004 7:09:57 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: sinkspur
His girlfriend had the abortion

Abortionist at his final judgement, "I didn't kill those hundreds of babies, my scapel did."

44 posted on 07/31/2004 7:17:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish

Non-sequitur.


45 posted on 07/31/2004 7:19:23 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Land of the Irish
Putting aside the abortion for the moment, don't forget that Vere and Charles Coulombe reportedly shared MUCH MORE than just their common love of satan and the occult.

According to Columbe, Eliphas Levi, the creator of The Sigil of Baphomet, was an "always faithful Catholic.".

Coulombe, The Esoteric Orthodoxy of Catholicism, Gnosis Magazine, Summer 1990:

"One cannot tell with complete accuracy what will happen. But we can know what must happen if the Church is to function properly. She must return to the... magical view of life; and the process of baptizing Hermeticism, interrupted by the Reformation, must be completed."

46 posted on 07/31/2004 7:19:30 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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So the co-author, being a satanist, is like the Robert Byrd and/or conscience of his particular sect of Catholics? Jeepers creepers, a previous satanist? A satanist?


47 posted on 07/31/2004 7:20:42 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl

So? Paul of Tarsus murdered Christians, before his conversion.


48 posted on 07/31/2004 7:23:55 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the divine power, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen saint_michael
 
 
 
49 posted on 07/31/2004 7:24:03 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
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To: AlbionGirl
Yep, satanist.

That HORRID crucifix of Montini, "the broken Christ", passed down to Wojytla, was the symbol of the necromancer in the Middle Ages, and truly the fitting staff of the antichrist, which has been prophesised by some saints as being a series of false popes.


50 posted on 07/31/2004 7:28:58 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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