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"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; christ; church; eucharist; jesus; liturgy; mass; sspx; tradition; traditionalism
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To: Patrick Madrid
Thanks for letting us know about your book. Sometimes I wonder how many Catholic Freepers may be authors of books and use pseudonyms,promoting their own books in a more stealthy manner,you know. As you may or may not have noticed we have a lot of material introduced by the far end of one side of the spectrum.

I appreciate the fact that you use your own name and if you say something we disagree with here or in your magazine,we can question you or take you to task for it. I myself would never be so brave. I picked a name that allowed me the latitude to be flippant,amiably eccentric or a bearer of accidental treasures without identifying myself.

Looking forward to your book!!

141 posted on 07/31/2004 11:38:44 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: saradippity
I picked a name that allowed me the latitude to be flippant,...

And that you are.

142 posted on 07/31/2004 11:43:01 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: stop_fascism

Shouldn't that be written as "former" satanist?


143 posted on 07/31/2004 11:45:48 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: pascendi
He has the same level of credibility as I do: none. He has no office in the Church.

Really? Laymen or laywomen have no credibility in the Mystical Body of Christ?

True, he does not possess a Divine office in the Church, but everybody has a Divine vocation. Being a journalist is one of them.

I have 2,000 years worth of saints to read instead.

Many of whom were laity. For example, any book written by a Nun or Sister (e.g. St. Theresa of Avila, the Little Flower, etc.) was written by a laywoman.

...we've got 2,000 years of that, and anyone can find it without his help.

Most people are not canon lawyers or theologians or biblical exegetes, etc. Many still do not have the time or energy or capability of investigating from original sources the many questions of their Faith which come up often enough. Often they find it helpful to learn about their Faith from others in the Mystical Body of Christ who do have the time and capabilities for such activities. Some of them even write books to help others. Some, even, as professional writers and journalist.

Maybe you don't need his book. Nobody does absolutely speaking, which is true of just about all books written. But relatively speaking, there are probably many who will find it helpful, also true of many other books written.

144 posted on 07/31/2004 11:45:48 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: Land of the Irish

Eleven million martyrs? That would be 100 martyrs on each and every day between the Ascenscion of Our Lord and the Battle of Milvian Bridge. It's a statistic that would require the wholesale depopulation of entire cities and districts. Where on earth do you find support for such a figure?

But notwithstanding your crackpot history, as I said I'm pleased to see you backing away from crackpot ecclesiology.


145 posted on 07/31/2004 11:48:31 PM PDT by Romulus ("For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.")
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To: sinkspur

"One billion Catholics are in union with the Pope" and attending mass every Sunday? I don't think so.


146 posted on 07/31/2004 11:48:46 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: Land of the Irish
I know little about Peter Vere

Then why do you defend him?

Tsk tsk. Answer me, and I'll answer you.

Are you implying that he still, even now, approves of these serious sins? Why is his Catholic Faith called into question by your "quotation marks"?

147 posted on 07/31/2004 11:52:22 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: sinkspur

What was done to Zambian Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo?


148 posted on 07/31/2004 11:52:49 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: ultima ratio

"Why are so many of his officers smoking grass and kissing cabin boys instead of manning the ship?"

Because they are leftist homosexuals?


149 posted on 07/31/2004 11:54:09 PM PDT by Max Combined
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To: Romulus
But notwithstanding your crackpot history, as I said I'm pleased to see you backing away from crackpot ecclesiology.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not backing off any of my beliefs.

You used "crackpot" twice in one sentence. Must be the new buzzword on Camp Street.

150 posted on 07/31/2004 11:57:35 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
Since you have failed to source that comment about Peter Vere and the abortion,I have had to think.

Either he mentioned it in an article he wrote about his earlier experiences in the world,in which case he probably also said he repented,confessed it and was forgiven. Very much in keeping with Catholic teaching,isn't it? Or,are priests not able to forgive certain sins committed by certain people unless they run it by you?

Or,perhaps in your earlier life you had a different profession and have knowledge of a single woman named Sonya,who came to you for services?

Remarks like you made,make me ashamed to be Catholic.

151 posted on 08/01/2004 12:01:03 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: narses; AAABEST; thor76; Dajjal; Land of the Irish
I think that the Mass (liturgical worship) is very important so don't get me wrong but there are other Catholic traditions and traditional aspects of Catholic culture which have been eroded beyond just the way Mass is celebrated. Catholic education has been targeted for social engineering in bizarre liberal and modernist ways. Now, the people who see something positive in Vatican II overlook the very obvious liberal modernist ways that Catholic culture has been eroded in Catholic institutions by invocations of "the spirit of Vatican II."

This is an important topic and it should be debated fairly, honestly, and accurately with reference to all the facts. I don't think we should view the debate in knee-jerk fashion immediately as something negative. This should be discussed. The truth and the facts will come out.

152 posted on 08/01/2004 12:02:31 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Land of the Irish
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not backing off any of my beliefs.

Good, because I'm really looking forward to your defense of the "eleven million martys" headcount.

Must be the new buzzword on Camp Street.

Come and see.

153 posted on 08/01/2004 12:14:16 AM PDT by Romulus ("For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.")
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To: Land of the Irish
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored...

Uhm, no-thanks. I'll pass on your book.

Rethink this. Who is the worst sinner you know? Who did Christ spend time with?

154 posted on 08/01/2004 12:36:29 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Max Combined
Last I heard, Milingo returned to Rome but once again has jumped from the Ark. It's being kept quiet, "see no evil, hear no evil".

Here's an excerpt of an interview upon his very brief return to Rome.

SCHANKER- Do you have any message for Reverend Moon?

MILINGO- Tell him I am doing what he asked me to do: living for the sake of others.

So we have a Catholic Archbishop professing his obedience to Sun Myung Moon, while he is "returning" to Rome.

155 posted on 08/01/2004 12:38:08 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: saradippity
I have had to think.

Good for you!

156 posted on 08/01/2004 12:41:27 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: MarMema
Who is the worst sinner you know?

Myself.

157 posted on 08/01/2004 12:47:01 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
Myself.


158 posted on 08/01/2004 12:50:04 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Romulus
Come and see.

I was just there, Sunday July 4. I heard no reference to "crackpots".

159 posted on 08/01/2004 1:15:54 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish; pascendi; Patrick Madrid; ultima ratio; TotusTuus; sinkspur
It's not slander, it's fact. Ask Madrid, Vere or Soyna.

You have made the accusation! You bear the burden of proof. So far, YOU have produced not one shred of evidence to support it. Bearing false witness is a MORTAL SIN.

Mortal Sins*

This examination of conscience is not intended merely as a checklist to be used prior to confession. The purpose of this examination is to help souls to know what actions or attitudes are sinful and the gravity of the particular sin. The hope is that this knowledge will serve to keep people from committing these sins.

* Three things are necessary for a sin to be mortal: 1. Serious matter (things listed on this sheet); 2. Knowledge or firm belief that the act is seriously wrong prior to committing the act; 3. Full consent of the will.
All three of these conditions must be present simultaneously for a sin to be mortal. This means that if you did not know the act was seriously wrong, then you are not guilty of having committed a mortal sin. If you did not will the act, e.g., if you were forced or if it was in a dream, you are not guilty of having committed a mortal sin. All mortal sins committed since your last confession must be confessed by both type and number, i.e., the title of the sin and how many times it was done. If there is a mortal sin from the past that was forgotten and has not been confessed, it should be confessed at your next confession. It is not necessary to confess venial sins, but it is a good and pious practice.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- False witness (not under oath) or perjury (under oath)
-Telling large or premeditated lies
- Serious gossip, detraction (revealing the faults of another without serious reason), or calumny (harming the reputation of another by falsities)
- Violation of a confidence without good reason
- Being an accomplice to another's grave sin

Examination of Conscience

For one who advocates the need to restore sound catholic doctrine, it is simply amazing that you would use this forum to air your own sins.

160 posted on 08/01/2004 5:50:08 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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