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"More Catholic Than the Pope" New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; christ; church; eucharist; jesus; liturgy; mass; sspx; tradition; traditionalism
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To: sinkspur
Sounds like the good professor is storing his treasure for Heaven. "Yeah. All that trashing of John Paul II is gonna look good when he meets St. Peter."

As will yours, of the professor.

421 posted on 08/02/2004 1:32:24 PM PDT by Pio
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To: Coleus
Can you tell me more about peter vere? I've never heard of him.

Peter Vere is a very ambitious self promoter. He is an ex-Satanist and also former SSPX adherent. On his weblog he says that he spends his free time reading horror novels, playing drinking games and watching professional wrestling. I think I will take a pass on any spiritual direction he has to offer.

422 posted on 08/02/2004 1:37:00 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Land of the Irish

This is outright libel, sir. Pete Vere, who is a friend of mine, says that his wife, Sonya, has never had an abortion.

You made the same accusation in a previous post, but failed to provide a link to prove it.

I will (once again) complain to the moderator about your posts on this matter.


423 posted on 08/02/2004 1:39:15 PM PDT by mattcabbott
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To: Viva Christo Rey; Coleus; Land of the Irish
Along the way he studied in Canada at the most liberal canon law factory in the entire disgusting novus ordo swamp.

Oh yes, that's correct. Vere has written repeatedly about his debt to his mentor who has now been defrocked as an admitted homosexual abuser. "Adoremus" wrote about how Vere's ex-priest homosexual mentor was a one-man wrecking crew destroying the Catholic liturgy all across the United States from his base in Canada.

424 posted on 08/02/2004 1:41:46 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: mattcabbott; Land of the Irish

After that, could we then talk about how his book may be seeking to pour gasoline on a fire in the Church that's already well out of control?


425 posted on 08/02/2004 1:42:37 PM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: pascendi

It's one thing to take issue with someone's position(s) on certain matters; but such a libelous statement crosses the line - big time.


426 posted on 08/02/2004 1:47:44 PM PDT by mattcabbott
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To: Maximilian
"Adoremus" wrote about how Vere's ex-priest homosexual mentor was a one-man wrecking crew destroying the Catholic liturgy all across the United States from his base in Canada.

Perhaps a little context is in order. 1) Vere wrote these comments before the details about his mentor's past became general knowledge. Vere was as surprised as anyone else. 2) As most North American canonists are aware, his mentor was more of a liturgical libertarian than a liturgical liberal. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when most canonists were arguing that Ecclesia Dei adflicta applied only to the Mass, Vere's mentor was the only canonist of any stature who argued that this position was incorrect and that the Holy Father had now expanded the indult to include the six other sacraments. Subsequently, he equipped Vere and about a half dozen other traditionalist canonists to argue their case within the canon law world. They were successful, and today the expanded permissions is taken for granted by most in the Church.
427 posted on 08/02/2004 1:53:49 PM PDT by GratianGasparri
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To: sinkspur

What I like about these forums is that people are free to ignore the stcky points, and answer instead that which they can easily dismiss.

There are, of course, logistically implausible and just plain silly conspiracy theories. Yet, as the widespread homosexual infiltration of the postconciliar Church attests, the idea that evil men never seek each other out to work together is sillier still.

Moreover, the insistence of liberal propagandists that there is no Masonic conspiracy (aided and abetted by fellow-travellers like themselves) is doubtless the greatest conspiracy of all.

As so many of our Shepherds have themselves embraced Modernity, it might be said that all these conspiracy theories are now superfluous. Their job is finished.

With the secular liberal mindset so entrenched within the Church the whole infiltration/subversion thesis has become purely academic.
Everybody thinks the Holy Ghost thought of all this stuff.

The Communists and Masons have all died or gone home, and left the useful idiots to carry on - and write books. Carry on!


428 posted on 08/02/2004 1:55:43 PM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: NYer
Look, NYer, you are attacking a fellow freeper for simply repeating public knowledge. Self-promoters like Vere are always ready to tell you all about their past life. Several times in the past I have posted links to Vere's blog where he talks about his current lifestyle that is far from saintly. He has written many times about the debt he owes to the homosexual ex-priest who perhaps did more than anyone else to destroy the Catholic Mass.

Here is a concrete example: homosexual rapist ex-priest Fr. Huels not only taught Peter Vere everything he knows about canon law, he also pioneered the canon law practice of "making a path by walking on it." That means that you do something first, and get permission later. If everyone in the US and/or Canada is using altar girls and distributing communion in the hand, then sooner or later canon law will catch up with the practice and approve of what's being done. Huels travelled around the United States as the single most influential "liturgist" promoting precisely these practices. Meanwhile back at the rectory, he was perpetrating homosexual attacks on innocent young novices to his Servite order.

So this is the background and training that Vere represents when he writes a book like "More Catholic than the Pope." This is the factual history. Your attacks on a fellow freeper like Land of the Irish are not going to change the reality of that history.

429 posted on 08/02/2004 2:00:15 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: GratianGasparri
Vere hasn't had anything to do with satanism for almost fifteen years now.

That's probably true about actual hard-core Satanism. But his own blog says that his current lifestyle includes playing drinking games and being a very big fan of horror fiction and professional wrestling. And what about his apprenticeship under Huels, the man who was sexually attacking young seminarians while travelling the country to teach various dioceses how to deconstruct the Catholic Mass? To me that sounds worse than Satanism, because its more real and more directly aimed at the heart of the Catholic faith.

430 posted on 08/02/2004 2:10:33 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: mattcabbott; Land of the Irish
This is outright libel, sir. Pete Vere, who is a friend of mine, says that his wife, Sonya, has never had an abortion.

Is this where I say it sounded like a lie?
431 posted on 08/02/2004 2:12:32 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Arguss
I have a further question for you?

Is George W. Bush in on this Masonic conspiracy because he used the same Bible for his inauguration as George Washington did (and, of course, Washington was a Mason)?

432 posted on 08/02/2004 2:13:55 PM PDT by sinkspur (It is time to breed the dangerous Pit Bull Terrier out of existence!)
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To: american colleen
My God, these people would have me burned and cast away as dross probably - even if I've repented and gone and sinned no more.

You've missed the point. Hopefully you don't go around writing books that accuse other Catholics of being "More Catholic than the Pope." But if you do, then your own credentials would be fair game.

Peter Vere could go to church every Sunday and repent of his past life, and be a good Catholic, and no one is going to criticize him for it. But when someone with his past -- and his present -- publicly accuses OTHERS of not being good Catholics, then the hypocrisy meter has just swung all the way off the chart.

433 posted on 08/02/2004 2:16:02 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian; NYer
"Here is a concrete example: homosexual rapist ex-priest Fr. Huels not only taught Peter Vere everything he knows about canon law..."

But now Vere, not the magisterium of the Church, mind you, is going to tell traditional Catholics his take on things. And people are supposed to soak all this up as the answer to modernism's unparalled reign of terror against Holy Mother Church.

Well if he was wrong about Fr. Huels, then it's more than possible he may be wrong in his book about the good people called traditional Catholics as well. It just stands to reason; guess we'll just have to wait and read it.

Here's your lay magisterium. The lay magisterium made of of lay Catholic apologists like Vere and Madrid and Keating and all the rest, who have no Holy Order, and therefore no authority or grace of office. Yet all the good Neo's of the world look to these laypeople as magisterium, while the real magisterium does nothing but turn their backs on the flock. This lay-magisterium is elected by popular vote of the so-called conservative Catholic population; here's your democratized Catholic Church coming in from an angle probably no one may have suspected.
434 posted on 08/02/2004 2:24:20 PM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: Bead

Should we refer to you as "Venerable Bead"?


435 posted on 08/02/2004 2:25:27 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: pascendi
Well if he was wrong about Fr. Huels, then it's more than possible he may be wrong in his book about the good people called traditional Catholics as well.

The book is not about traditional Catholics.

It is about schismatics and sedevacantists.

You continue to blur the difference.

436 posted on 08/02/2004 2:30:20 PM PDT by sinkspur (It is time to breed the dangerous Pit Bull Terrier out of existence!)
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To: sinkspur

Hey, I could tell you what the difference actually is.


437 posted on 08/02/2004 2:33:38 PM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: sinkspur; pascendi
It is about schismatics and sedevacantists.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

We'll see how he defines "extreme traditionalist." I have a feeling it's going to be more than those you name.

438 posted on 08/02/2004 2:33:47 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: GratianGasparri; Bai Mac.
Because while he personally doesn't mind engaging in a little public controversy, he doesn't want his family dragged into it on his account.

Hypocrisy typical of all these neo-Catholic "apostalates." He is more than happy to use his family in his efforts at self promotion when it suits his purpose. But if someone points out the hypocrisy in this project, he tries to act like a wounded victim.

Just like Bai MacFarland who came on this forum to promote her own neo-Catholic apostolate of "saving marriage." She was more than happy to publish the story of her own impending divorce on the front page of the Cleveland Plain Dealer when it served her own interests. But when someone pointed out the beam in her own eye that she ought to remove before she started removing the specks in others' eyes, she got defensive and complained about invasion of privacy.

Is Envoy going to go the way of Catholicity and The Mary Foundation?

439 posted on 08/02/2004 2:36:12 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: mattcabbott
This is outright libel, sir. Pete Vere, who is a friend of mine, says that his wife, Sonya, has never had an abortion.

The posters on this thread, who are against the Pope, thrive on scandal. That is all they have to go on. They love scandal and distortion.

440 posted on 08/02/2004 2:38:02 PM PDT by M007
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