Legal fight over Mormon leading Bible study

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | September 16, 2004

[JohnHuang2]

A Christian student organization filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit against Washburn University School of Law in Topeka, Kan., yesterday after officials revoked its funding in response to a complaint from a Mormon who was not allowed to teach a group-sponsored Bible study.

According to a statement from the Center for Law and Religious Freedom, the advocacy arm for the group in question, the Christian Legal Society, Washburn law student Daniel Arkell cited university policy and filed a charge of religious discrimination in April against the school's CLS chapter.

Arkell, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, had led a CLS Bible study earlier in the semester, where, the legal group says, he advocated religious beliefs that were inconsistent with CLS' statement of faith. Leaders of the chapter subsequently told him he would not be allowed to lead CLS-sponsored Bible studies in the future.

According to the statement, Arkell in his complaint detailed his disagreement with all five points of the CLS statement of faith. Following a hearing, the Washburn Student Bar Association acquiesced to Arkell and revoked CLS' funding on Sept. 2.

"Washburn's action is an outrageous affront to religious freedom," stated Gregory S. Baylor, director of the Center for Law & Religious Freedom, located in Annandale, Va. "Washburn is trying to force CLS to sponsor a Bible study leader who explicitly rejects CLS' religious message."

Continued Baylor: "Punishing CLS for preserving its religious identity is a bizarre misapplication of university non-discrimination rules. What will the university do next? Punish the College Democrats for preferring Democrats? Washburn should respect the constitutionally protected right of students to band together around shared ideals."

[txzman]

Silly Christians. Next time let an extremist Muslim teach.

[garylmoore]

That's about the same as having Dan Rather teach a class on "How to report the truth".

[familyop]

Was he going to teach the Book of Covenants?

[Seattle Sunshine]

So, the real name of their church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Do any of you actually know what they believe?

[Revelation 911]

Do any of you actually know what they believe?

Youll find discussion of mormon topics non existent on FR - too controversial to even discuss doctrine etc....so we dont.

Direct all complaints to JR

[Sam the Sham]

How can you have a Bible study without first agreeing that that this about the Bible not "The Scriptures" as Mormons call their books.

[AppyPappy]

GREENSBORO -- Members of First Baptist Church have voted overwhelmingly to leave the conservative-led Southern Baptist Convention. More surprisingly, the mostly moderate congregation also voted not to affiliate with any Baptist denomination -- moderate, conservative or otherwise. And while members will give most of their money to Baptist missionaries, they agreed to support other denominations that want to share Jesus' message with Methodists.

[MikeJ75]

I thought Mormons were Christians. After all, the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don't understand why the Christian club objected.

[Hillary's Lovely Legs]

I thought Mormons were Christians. After all, the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don't understand why the Christian club objected.

Because the Bible that mainstream Christian faith uses does not include the trip that Jesus made to America which is why the Book of Mormon was added.

[Colofornian]

How can you have a Bible study without first agreeing that that this about the Bible not "The Scriptures" as Mormons call their books.

How can you have a Bible study by somebody who represents a group that adds the disclaimer that they believe the Bible to be the Word of God insofar as it's correctly translated? (This means wherever and whenever the Bible disagrees with the Doctrine & Covenants, the D&C "Scripture" trumps the Bible).

[Colofornian]

I thought Mormons were Christians. After all, the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted... (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

[Colofornian]

complaint from a Mormon who was not allowed to teach a group-sponsored Bible study.

What? Was he going to teach on Psalm 82:1,6, a passage LDS folks like to cite which they say backs up their belief that we all can become gods? I can just imagine every Bible study @ every secular university being taken over by Mormons. "Our devotional for today is how, you, too, can become worthy of your future divinity and semi-sovereignty."

[DannyTN]

"Do any of you actually know what they believe?

They believe:

• God is one god of many gods.
• Jesus is a separate god from God.
• God started out as a man and was promoted to Godhood.
• God is not omnipresent but sits atop another planet waiting news of earth from couriers.
• Mormons will be promoted to Godhood too.
• Seances with the dead are ok.
• Joseph Smith is actually the one who judges men and determines whether they are worthy to enter heaven.
• Jesus's death covers everybody wether or not they accept Him. Thus all people are saved. (Except really really bad people who go to hell.)
• The salvation you recieve from Jesus whether or not you accepted Him, is merely eternal life as a slave on earth.
• Heaven and Godhood is different from salvation and is earned.

[TontoKowalski]

I don't understand why the Christian club objected.

The answer's in the article:

"Arkell, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, had led a CLS Bible study earlier in the semester, where, the legal group says, he advocated religious beliefs that were inconsistent with CLS' statement of faith.

I'm a Christian, but not a Catholic Christian. If I wanted to teach a Catholic Bible Study, and said disparaging things about the Pope, then they'd be perfectly justified in kicking me out.

Same thing here.

[Scourge of God]

You're correct--I'm LDS myself, but I would never expect to be be allowed to force my teachings into some other Christian group. Nor would I accept another Christian group to come and preach their teachings at my location.

[Colofornian]

I thought Mormons were Christians

Even the LDS Church-published magazine, The Ensign, has gone on record as saying that LDS folks worship a different god than Christendom.

[TontoKowalski]

...insofar as it's correctly translated...

You definition of "translated" cannot be taken to mean: "I went to the ancient Bible texts and, using my superior knowledge of ancient languages, developed after years of formal study, re-wrote them into modern English."

"Translated" means: "I took a pencil and marked out everything I didn't want to be in the Bible, and added a few things that I thought were lacking."

[Colofornian]

I'm LDS myself, but I would never expect to be be allowed to force my teachings into some other Christian group. Nor would I accept another Christian group to come and preach their teachings at my location

We've got a consensus, then. Perhaps this LDS law student should take some advice from brethren like yourself.

[Colofornian]

"Translated" means: "I took a pencil and marked out everything I didn't want to be in the Bible, and added a few things that I thought were lacking."

Well, actually, Joseph Smith, LDS pioneer propheteer, did do exactly that: It's called the "IV"--or Inspired Version. He "corrected" all of the verses he thought were wrong in the KJV Bible.

Still, Salt Lake City offers up the KJV--and not the IV--as the free offer in its commercials.

Makes you kind of wonder why the KJV trumps the "translation" of its very own prophet.

[TontoKowalski]

Still, Salt Lake City offers up the KJV--and not the IV--as the free offer in its commercials.

Are you sure about that? I want to contest that statement, but confess I don't have enough info to do so.

It's inconceivable that the LDS church wouldn't be giving away the Smith "translation."

[Lx]

Yes, I have extensively studied the reference material presented on South Park.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

From the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sain ts:

1). We beileve in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2). We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3). We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4). We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5). We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6). We believe in the same orgianization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7). We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues and so forth.

8). We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9). We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10). We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built on the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11). We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12). We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and susting the law.

13). We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul - we believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report of praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[VegasBaby]

Aside from obvious inaccuracies that you presented, anyone can take a religious belief and oversimplify it to fit their own interpretation (Seances with the dead? Huh?)--but that doesn't mean the person's interpretation is an accurate depiction.

That being said, I don't agree that this individual should try to force the LDS teachings on this group if they believe otherwise.

[Osage Orange]

Amen....brother Kowalski

[Old Professer]

It's all utter nonsense; either there is one god or there is none.

[CommerceComet]

>>You're correct--I'm LDS myself, but I would never expect to be be allowed to force my teachings into some other Christian group.

I have a friend who was a member of this group before he graduated from Washburn Law School. He told about this situation and he said that the Mormon leading the study was going out of his way to pick a fight.

[Scourge of God]

I have a friend who was a member of this group before he graduated from Washburn Law School. He told about this situation and he said that the Mormon leading the study was going out of his way to pick a fight.

The guy's obviously a weanie. He's gotta be a Kerry supporter. :->

Scourge

[CommerceComet]

>>He's gotta be a Kerry supporter.

I don't know about the Mormon student but from what my friend tells me most of the professors in the Washburn Law School are. Fortunately, most of us here in Kansas aren't.

[Colofornian]

Are you sure about that? I want to contest that statement, but confess I don't have enough info to do so. It's inconceivable that the LDS church wouldn't be giving away the Smith "translation."

I'm sure. I've seen the commercials. I'm less sure about the current reason why. My understanding as to why the Church was not distributing the IV in earlier days was because the RLDS (Reorganized Church out of Missouri) had copyrights on the IV. But I know the IV is circulated now by LDS.

[Colofornian]

1). We beileve in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

This is nice slight of handwriting. What this article doesn't say belief-wise about the LDS is that the three characters mentioned in this article are three separate gods who form the one godhead. "We believe in God, the Eternal Father" makes it sound like any Christian denomination. What? You can be LDS and believe there are no other gods other than God, the Eternal Father? I don't think so.

[Colofornian]

2). We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

What this means is that they don't believe in original sin. That contradicts a number of Biblical passages: "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies" (Ps. 58:3); "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5).

[Casloy]

I am staying out of this one for sure!!!

[Colofornian]

3). We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

In effect, the Gospel just becomes the 11th Commandment and all the ordinances become the 12th, 13th, 14th, etc. commandments. The atonement in this context just gives everyone the opportunity to obey to be saved. As the Book of Mormon reads, "Ye are saved by grace after all you can do." Now, tell me, who of us can ever say, "I've done enough." I can't.

[Colofornian]

Silly Christians. Next time let an extremist Muslim teach.

Good practical tactical. Why Muslims, liberal Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Moonies, should just get in Bible Study leader line @ campuses all across the country. You know those religious folk are all alike!

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Yeah, me too. I should have known better than to post the L.D.S. Articles of Faith. Seems some here are saying that those articles do not reflect what the Mormons really believe.

Well, I have three things to say to that. Firstly, when I want to know about a religion or a philosophy, I go to the adherents of that faith - not to the detractors.

Secondly, to paraphrase Reagan, a person who is with me 80% of the time is not my enemy.

And lastly, remember the golden rule. It really isn't a good idea to use Rather or Clinton tactics. We can disagree on philosophical principles and religious differences without descending to the level of Chris Matthews or Carville.

[JiggyMac]

Didn't "She who is the Coulter" command us all to convert Muslims to Christianity, not Christians to Christians?

Maybe the student was just aiming in the wrong direction.

[Spiff]

We use the complete King James Version of the Holy Bible. You can even get one free by calling a toll free number. I have no idea what amount of religious intolerance one would have to possess to refuse a Christian, teaching from the King James Version of the Holy Bible, from leading a Bible study class just because he's a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If one would listen for just a moment they would hear the similarities and agreements between the LDS doctrine and their church's. But you can't keep a thing like blind religious intolerance down with some people.

[Spiff]

Well, actually, Joseph Smith, LDS pioneer propheteer, did do exactly that: It's called the "IV"--or Inspired Version. He "corrected" all of the verses he thought were wrong in the KJV Bible. Still, Salt Lake City offers up the KJV--and not the IV--as the free offer in its commercials. Makes you kind of wonder why the KJV trumps the "translation" of its very own prophet.

The Prophet, Joseph Smith, received inspiration and created the inspired version of SOME of the KJV Bible. Those verses are NOT included in the KJV Bible that the LDS Church uses but footnotes in that KJV Bible leads to the inspired verses.

[geopyg]

Our good friends and neighbors are Mormans. And yes - they are our good friends. However, based on our conversations over the years I think they are mislead on one of the basic tenants of Christianity - that Christ died for their sins - and that nothing THEY do can "save" themselves.

We went to their son's babtism, and one of the songs was an old hymn about how "we were healed by his stripes" - except in their version it was JOSEPH SMITH's stripes that healed them!

The multiple gods, attitudes toward women, etc. is bothersome to me, but what really bothers me is how the idea of "not being good enough" affects their lives and brings them worry. I too am concerned that my actions don't always follow my faith - but I know that I am saved - and move on from there.

One of my lack of actions is giving more of a "testimony" to them - but I figure I can show my faith by example rather than bounding on a Bible.

[newguy357]

So, the real name of their church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Do any of you actually know what they believe?

Spaceships and stuff.

[Constitution Day]

This should be a fun thread!

[newguy357]

I really hope you're being sarcastic. Either that or you have no idea about the differences between LDS and Christianity. The former is contradictory with the latter.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

except in their version it was JOSEPH SMITH's stripes that healed them!

Now that, I seriously doubt. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide the name of the hymn in question please?

When I was in California quite a few years ago, there was an organization styling itself the Christian Research Institute. I believe (but am not quite certain) that it was based out of the Calvary chapels there. Anyway, the head of it at the time (and the founder, I believe) was one Walter Martin. His hatred of Mormons, Catholics and Jehovahs Witnesses was astonishing, to say the least. In fact, he got so libelous in his comments, that he was given a court order to shutup.

Personally, I admire a person who lives a Christ-like life. Example is far more important to me than mere words. Given this, I'd say that Anwar Sadat was more of a christian than Walter Martin ever was.

[Little Bill]

They also believe the Constitution is a God inspired Document, puts them on my side.

[CollegeRepublican]

I thought the Mormon episode of South Park was pretty funny. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Smart, smart, smart, smart, smart.

I agree that most Mormons are really nice people and their beliefs are just that beliefs. Just like any religion you have to take certain aspects of them on faith. The problem that Mormons run into is that their religion was founded in the recent past in a time were local newspapers and others could document their actions. The Mormon detractors have more ammunition compared to older religions, due to the nature of the founding of the LDS religion and the actions of its founders. People also become suspicious when the church leaders attempt to discredit or stifle talk of polygamy or other "bad" aspects of the religion during its early years.

[A.J.Armitage]

I'll guarantee no Mormon student group in the country would let me teach a Bible study.

[Colofornian]

The Prophet, Joseph Smith, received inspiration and created the inspired version of SOME of the KJV Bible. Those verses are NOT included in the KJV Bible that the LDS Church uses but footnotes in that KJV Bible leads to the inspired verses.

Thank you for the clarification. My question is why hasn't Salt Lake City simply published either a KJV re-translation w/the corrections (vs. simply reducing them to mere footnote, non-revelational status); or, why hasn't it simply come up w/its own version (like the Jehovah's Witnesses' World Translation) using the "corrections"?

[Colofornian]

I'll guarantee no Mormon student group in the country would let me teach a Bible study.

The one LDS College Institute group I occasionally attended was very cordial and quite receptive to questions. The Institute director there was quite nice; unlike some brethren of his I've encountered online who, porcupine like, are fearful of even broaching certain topics.

[Colofornian]

Didn't "She who is the Coulter" command us all to convert Muslims to Christianity, not Christians to Christians? Maybe the student was just aiming in the wrong direction.'

Hey, LDS missionaries knock on our doors for a reason. Joseph Smith said in reporting his first angelic/Christ vision that he was told that all of our creeds (Christendom) were an abomination unto the Lord. Hence, to LDS folks, we are the Gentiles. That's why they baptize the dead & folks still alive like us (by proxy).