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SSPX FRANCE REPORTEDLY IN CHAOS
Envoy Magazine ^ | September 18, 2004 | Pete Vere

Posted on 09/20/2004 7:38:56 AM PDT by NYer

Taking a break from judging annulments earlier today, I visited a number of French traditionalist websites.  I also had the opportunity, yesterday, to speak with a friend of mine who is a canonist from France following the situation as well as another friend who keeps tabs on the traditionalist movement in both the English and the French speaking world.  Everyone agrees -- the situation has degenerated into total chaos, as nobody knows exactly what is going on with the highly-respected French SSPX clergy that have criticized what they see as the SSPX's growing rigidity. 


It does appear that Rome has refused to take competency over the case, more-or-less stating that the SSPX denied Rome's jurisdiction over them when Lefebvre carried out a schismatic act through the 1988 episcopal consecrations.  Beyond that, Rome refuses to comment other than to say, "Our door remains open for their return to full communion."

Beyond that, the rhetoric, polemic and accusations suggest that indeed civil war is breaking out among the laity and clergy within the SSPX's French District.  In fact, two websites have now popped up that are exclusively devoted to tracing all the news stories associated with the crisis.  What I find personally find interesting is that every news report, commentary, polemic, etc... mentions Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion from the SSPX around this time last year.

In the months that followed, it appears that the SSPX more-or-less tried to sweep Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion under the rug.  But in so doing, even the regime currently in charge of the SSPX had to admit the important role played by Fr. Aulagnier in the founding of the SSPX.  This is probably why the SSPX appeared to hope the issue would go away.

Yet it is also well-known that Fr. Aulagnier was a close friend of Fr. Laguerie as well as Fr. de Tanouarn -- two of the SSPX's leading priests.  (As Fr. Laguerie's assistant, Fr. Henri appears to have just happened into the situation).  It is also well-known that a number of French (and some American) SSPX priests were not happy with Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion.  Therefore, I will venture to guess that the current SSPX chaos is the effect of Fr. Aulagnier's expulsion coming back to haunt Bishop Fellay.  As for the particular details, this is the first time in almost fourteen years of being a traditionalist that I find the fog of war too thick to reasonably discern what is going on.  (What I find even more troubling is that behind the scenes, under the flag of truce, other SSPX and traditionalist commentators with whom I am in contact have admitted to having the same problem.)

So if I can end on a personal note to the moderate SSPX clergy and their supporters who follow this blog, I'm more than happy to abide by the flag of truce and keep you guys in prayer while you fight whatever battles need to be fought, but I honestly cannot make heads-or-tails of what is happening. But like Rome has said, the door is open for you to return.  I will pray that God gives you the necessary strength to walk through it.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: france
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1 posted on 09/20/2004 7:38:56 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
But like Rome has said, the door is open for you return. I will pray that God gives you the necessary strength to walk through it.

I personally join my prayers to his.

2 posted on 09/20/2004 7:40:47 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: AAABEST; All
In fact, two websites have now popped up that are exclusively devoted to tracing all the news stories associated with the crisis.

These sites are in French; here are the links.

Crise A La FSSPX

Crise Fraternite

3 posted on 09/20/2004 7:47:39 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer; All

The SSPX website, www.dici.org, has the latest info. on this.

I really don't know what to make of it other than to continue to pray for their regularization within the Church. Even the analysis on www.dici.org gives somewhat of a soul-searching, and is much more pastoral than most of the adherents who post here.


4 posted on 09/20/2004 7:48:21 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: Mershon; All
Thanks for the information. Perhaps this document will provide some insight into the situation. It's in English :-)

The facts reproached to Fr. Laguérie

5 posted on 09/20/2004 7:56:41 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer
Isn't THIS the link you wanted?

The one which you've posted links to a short book review.

6 posted on 09/20/2004 8:23:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer
Ignore post #6.

When I first clicked on your link I got shunted to some book review page. The second time I clicked I got the right page.

Sorry.

7 posted on 09/20/2004 8:27:44 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer
Taking a break from judging annulments earlier today, I visited a number of French traditionalist websites.

Is Pete Vere judging annulments?

As for the particular details, this is the first time in almost fourteen years of being a traditionalist that I find the fog of war too thick to reasonably discern what is going on.

Is Pete Vere a traditionalist?

8 posted on 09/20/2004 8:54:22 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II

"Is Pete Vere judging annulments?"

He is a canon lawyer and, especially in North America, annulments amount to about 98% of the work that canon lawyers do.

"Is Pete Vere a traditionalist?"

Yes - he used to be quite anti-SSPX, although I believe he has called a truce in terms of debate and polemic. I also believe he attends an indult Mass.


9 posted on 09/20/2004 9:17:38 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: BlackElk

Ping for later


10 posted on 09/20/2004 9:36:57 AM PDT by BlackElk ( Ketchupboy delenda est.)
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To: Tantumergo

Pete would have no Indult to attend were it not for SSPX. If they eventually go under, the Indult will follow.

Of course, some people consider themselves traditionalist if they have stopped going to the Clown Mass.


11 posted on 09/20/2004 10:01:24 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: NYer; Land of the Irish; pro Athanasius; thor76; AlbionGirl; Pio; pascendi; ultima ratio; ...
Re: "So if I can end on a personal note to the moderate SSPX clergy and their supporters who follow this blog,"

I see he is praying for the "Liberal" SSPX priests and their supporters but not for the rock solid conservative SSPX priests and their supporters.

cautus ping

Just for the record, when I lead the rosary like I did this morning I included the Holy Father, his Bishops and ALL his ministers. This includes Cardinal Law.
12 posted on 09/20/2004 10:06:38 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: NYer
It does appear that Rome has refused to take competency over the case, more-or-less stating that the SSPX denied Rome's jurisdiction over them when Lefebvre carried out a schismatic act through the 1988 episcopal consecrations. Beyond that, Rome refuses to comment other than to say, "Our door remains open for their return to full communion."

Like the Bush White House's handling of Dan Rather and CBS, the Vatican steps back and allows SSPX factions to fight this one out.

13 posted on 09/20/2004 10:12:43 AM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Mark in the Old South
<> And, of course, we must remember the departed Cardinal Bugnini, Masonic author of the Novus Ordo.
14 posted on 09/20/2004 10:22:56 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: charliemarlow

Yes for men such as him our prayers are most in need, with the caveat that in the event our prayers can not do him good (consider the parable of Lazarus in heaven and the rich man in hell) they be applied to someone in purgatory.


15 posted on 09/20/2004 10:39:21 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: charliemarlow

"If they eventually go under, the Indult will follow."

That is my fear. If they fragment into smaller groups, traditionalists will be easier to pick off by the liberal bishops' conferences.

The time maybe approaching when they need to consider some accommodation with Rome in order carry on the fight effectively.

If they could get an Apostolic Administration or a Personal Prelature, then that would be an effective protection against recalcitrant local ordinaries.

"Of course, some people consider themselves traditionalist if they have stopped going to the Clown Mass."

When you have the power to see into men's hearts then you will have the right to judge. Until then I suggest you leave that up to God.


16 posted on 09/20/2004 11:01:06 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo

I was distinguishing between traditionalists and pseudo traditionalists, not condemning people to Hell.

A problem I think traditionalists have is the alacrity with which the hierarchy, including in Rome, leaps to club down any priest who says the traditional Latin Mass, while almost all of us can report a long list of local outrages and sacrileges that go uncorrected.
This doen not lead people to trust any but the firmest arrangements for the future. And traditionalism is more than the Mass.


17 posted on 09/20/2004 11:07:26 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: Tantumergo
If they could get an Apostolic Administration or a Personal Prelature, then that would be an effective protection against recalcitrant local ordinaries.

My memory is somewhat hazy, but I have the impression that this is precisely what was offered by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos in the recently rejected overture to SSPX. A similar situation to Opus Dei. Is that correct?

The Campos settlement contained a similar provision, did it not?

18 posted on 09/20/2004 11:08:14 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer

This is about as reliable as a CBS story about the Republicans. Envoy would like nothing better than chaos to reign within the SSPX. But what's going on is not unusual in an institution of growing influence. Same thing happened in the early Church.


19 posted on 09/20/2004 11:09:18 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: marshmallow
My memory is somewhat hazy, but I have the impression that this is precisely what was offered by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos in the recently rejected overture to SSPX. A similar situation to Opus Dei. Is that correct?

You are exactly correct. It was an apostolic administration, flatly rejected by Fellay.

It was rejected because the SSPX still thinks it can force the Vatican to give a universal mandate for the Tridentine Mass. It's no secret that some in the Vatican would have already done this were it not for most bishops conferences who objected, loudly.

Now that it appear the strongest group of SSPX priests is fragmenting, the Vatican will likely step back and offer reconciliation, on its terms.

After all, there seems to be a strong sentiment within the SSPX to reconcile before JPII dies.

The next Pontiff might very well tell the SSPX to take a hike, and guys like Aulagnier and Laguiere know that.

20 posted on 09/20/2004 11:20:46 AM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: sinkspur

On the other hand, SSPX might get a better deal from another pope - or the next after that, as the Vatican II generation is replaced by more orthodox people.
SSPX has said they need 1) acknowledgement that an indult is not necessary, since Pius V approved the Mass for perpetuity; and 2) revocation of the excommunications, which would follow pretty much anyway from 1.


21 posted on 09/20/2004 11:27:46 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: charliemarlow
On the other hand, SSPX might get a better deal from another pope

It appears that some SSPX priests, in the birthplace of the SSPX, are not willing to take that chance.

22 posted on 09/20/2004 11:30:05 AM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Tantumergo


The problem in the SSPX, and I see it as its biggest problem is the cult of personality that surrounds Bp. Williamson. The venom that this man poured on Campos was disgusting.


23 posted on 09/20/2004 11:45:49 AM PDT by RFT1
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To: RFT1

The bishop or cardinal in charge of such matters, I cannot recall his name, said of Campos, that they were given
special status because they had been in schism by setting up parallel structures, whereas SSPX is not. I guess that is a clue to how things work.
What would the bishops do if the pope announced that an indult was not necessary? Resign? Go into schism? What?


24 posted on 09/20/2004 11:59:12 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: Tantumergo; sinkspur; marshmallow; All
Une fois n'est pas coutume, l'association publie aujourd'hui l'intégralité du bulletin paroissial Mascaret de septembre/octobre 2004.

Edito

J’avais d’abord pensé écrire ici une lettre ouverte à Mgr Fellay, sorte d’épilogue à ce terrible été qui, après 31 ans de soutane et 25 ans de sacerdoce par, dans et pour la Fraternité, m’a exclu comme un malfaiteur sans même oser le dire : « Vous serez considéré comme n’appartenant plus… », quel courage. Mais les cicatrices de ces deux mois d’enfer ecclésiastique sont là, ouvertes, béantes, pleines de sang et de sueur. Je risquerais des formules irrespectueuses. Il ne le faut absolument pas. Mgr Fellay a cru son Autorité personnelle attaquée ; il n’a vu que cela, il ne voit encore que cela. Quant à moi, je suis blessé, dégoûté – mais rassurez-vous plus résolu que jamais – et quelques semaines de calme donneront à la réponse que je dois absolument à Mgr plus de sérénité, de profondeur et de vérité.

C’est donc à vous que je préfère m’adresser. Pour vous redonner courage, dans cette persécution que vous subissez : « Aussi bien, tous ceux qui voudront vivre pieusement dans le Christ Jésus auront à subir persécution » (saint Paul à Tim.). L’apôtre savait aussi que les souffrances viennent parfois des “faux frères”. Il ne voulait pas que ses propres difficultés affectent ses fidèles : « Ne vous laissez pas troubler par les souffrances que j’endure pour vous : elles sont votre gloire ».

Fidèles de Bordeaux ou d’ailleurs, relevez donc la tête ! Vous avez été et vous êtes merveilleux à nos côtés. Vous avez démontré à la face du monde où était le respect pour le sacerdoce et le sacerdoce en herbe, les séminaristes. Vous avez démontré aussi avec nous que l’Autorité, toute divine qu’elle soit, ne peut jamais être sa propre fin et ne viser, dans son exercice, qu’à se préserver elle-même. Vous avez démontré que la Fraternité Saint Pie X ne peut ni ne doit devenir ce que nous l’avons vu cet été : une zone de non droit, d’arbitraire de crispation autoritaire, de violence même.

Vous avez affiché votre intention de la défendre, coûte que coûte, contre elle-même, pour lui rappeler ses origines « essentiellement apostolique ( art. 2 des statuts )», par et pour le sacerdoce, dans la charité de son incomparable fondateur dont nous faisons nôtre la devise : « Credidimus Caritati ». Oui, nous croyons encore à la charité et au souffle de l’Esprit Saint pour que des frères d’armes et des soldats du Christ (Tim.), au lieu de se déchirer et de s’exclure, bâtissent et construisent ensemble. De la phrase de Jérémie (1, 9- 10), ils n’ont retenu que le début et oublié la fin : « Vois, je t’ai établi en ce jour sur les nations et les royaumes, pour arracher et pour abattre, pour bâtir et pour planter… ». Arracher et abattre, sûrement pas des frères. Mais plutôt bâtir et planter toujours avec ses frères.

J’ai dit à Monsieur l’abbé de Cacqueray, le soir du dimanche 15 août : « Monsieur l’abbé, je ne vous connaissais pas tant d’énergie et de capacité. J’en ai été admiratif. Si depuis deux ans, vous les aviez utilisées à m’aider, me soutenir et m’encourager à Bordeaux, on n’en serait pas là ». Quand je lis dans les revues sous la plume des abbés Lorans, Célier (dont la tête est réclamée par Chiré en Montreuil, ce qui explique son zèle soudain à me pourfendre…) et de Cacqueray que tout a été entrepris pour sauver votre serviteur, j’éclate de rire. A part : « Enlevez vos recours, et partez au Mexique », je n’ai rien, absolument rien entendu d’autre. C’est quand même fort de café ! Le ridicule ne tue plus personne, pas même l’abbé Lorans, ce vieil ami que je croyais plus fier…

Alors, chers fidèles, si vous me comprenez bien, ne regardez pas les difficultés locales présentes ; elles sont le prix à payer pour la grande victoire que nous avons d’ores et déjà remportée ensemble. Rien ne sera comme avant, les remises en question vont bon train. Je suis au fond très fier de vous. Saint-Eloi vit, prospère, et la Fraternité peut et doit suivre. Que mes ennemis sachent que je leur pardonne de tout coeur ; c’est pour eux que j’ai fait tout cela et non pour moi (qu’avais-je à y gagner ? ) ; et s’ils m’ont pris pour un adversaire à abattre, je les considère toujours comme des frères à conforter.

Abbé Philippe Laguérie

25 posted on 09/20/2004 12:12:25 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer

French? If you could translate, it would help.


26 posted on 09/20/2004 12:14:01 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: NYer

GO GO Babelfish - I don't have time to do it by hand:

Once is not habit, association publishes today the entirety of the parochial bulletin Mascaret of septembre/octobre 2004.

Edito

I had initially thought of writing here a letter open to Mgr Fellay, kind of epilogue at this terrible summer which, after 31 years of cassock and 25 years of priesthood by, in and for Fraternity, excluded me like a criminal without very daring the statement: " You will be regarded as not belonging more... ", which courage. But the scars of these two months of ecclesiastical hell are there, open, open, full with blood and sweat. I would risk disrespectful formulas. It is absolutely not needed. Mgr Fellay believed its attacked Personal authority; it saw only that, it sees yet only that. As for me, I am wounded, disgusted - but you reassure more solved than ever - and a few weeks of calms will give to the answer which I absolutely owe in Mgr more serenity, of depth and truth.

It is thus with you that I prefer to address myself. To give again you courage, in this persecution which you undergo: " As well, all those which will want to live piously in Jesus Christ will have to undergo persecution " (holy Paul with Tim.). The apostle also knew that the sufferings come sometimes from the "false friends". He did not want that its own difficulties affect its faithful: " you do not let disturb by the sufferings which I endure for you: they are your glory ".

Faithful of Bordeaux or besides, thus raise the head! You were and you are marvellous at our sides. You showed with the face of the world where was the respect for priesthood and priesthood out of grass, seminarists. You as showed with us as the Authority, very divine as it is, can never be its own end and not aim, in his exercise, that to preserve itself. You showed that Fraternity Black and white Saint X cannot nor should not become what we saw it this summer: a zone of nonright, arbitrary of authoritative crispation, violence even.

You posted your intention to defend it, costs which costs, itself counters, to point out its origins to him " primarily apostolic (art. 2 of the statutes)", by and for priesthood, in the charity of its incomparable founder of which we do ours the currency: " Credidimus Caritati ". Yes, we still believe in the charity and the breath of the Holy Spirit so that brothers in arms and soldiers of Christ (Tim.), instead of tearing and to be excluded, build and build together. Sentence of Jérémie (1, 9 10), they retained only the beginning and forgot the end: " , I See established you in this day on the nations and the kingdoms, to tear off and cut down, build and plant... ". To tear off and cut down, surely not brothers. But rather to build and always plant with his/her brothers.

I said to Mister the abbot of Cacqueray, the evening of Sunday August 15: " Mister the abbot, I did not know you such an amount of energy and capacity. I was admiring. If for two years, you had used them to help me, support me and to encourage me in Bordeaux, one would not be there ". When I read in reviews under feather of abbots Lorans, Célier (of which the head is claimed by Chiré in Montreuil, which explains its sudden zeal with me pourfendre...) and of Cacqueray that all was undertaken to save your servant, I burst of laughing. With share: " Remove your recourse, and leave to Mexico ", I, absolutely nothing did not understand anything of other. It is nevertheless strong of coffee! The ridiculous one does not kill anybody any more, not even the Lorans abbot, this old friend whom I believed prouder...

Then, expensive faithful, if you include/understand me well, do not look at the local difficulties present; they are the price to be paid for the great victory which we gained right now together. Nothing will be like front, the handing-over in question go good train. I am at the very proud bottom of you. Saint-Eloi saw, thrives, and Fraternity can and must follow. That my enemies know that I forgive them of any heart; it for them that I did all that and not for me (which did have I is to gain there? ); and if they took to me for an adversary to cut down, I always regard them as brothers to be consolidated.

Abbot Philippe Laguérie


27 posted on 09/20/2004 12:43:46 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: sinkspur
It's the unhappy statement of the bishop mentioned in the article at the top.
What if SSPX is right and the mess we see around us in the mainstream Church is because of Vatican II? In other words, might it be a disaster for the Faith if SSPX splinters apart before the Holy See comes to its senses?
28 posted on 09/20/2004 12:46:04 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: marshmallow; Tantumergo; sinkspur
Now that it appear the strongest group of SSPX priests is fragmenting, the Vatican will likely step back and offer reconciliation, on its terms.

Here ya go!

Rome, 13 septembre 2004 (Apic) Face a la grave crise qui agite la fraternité sacerdotale Saint-Pie X - séparée de Rome - le Saint-Siège affirme ne pas pouvoir faire de commentaires officiels, ni proposer d'aide légale en raison de l'absence de liens juridiques existant entre elle et la fraternité dirigée par Mgr Bernard Fellay. Consultés lundi par l'Apic, les milieux proches du dossier affirment cependant qu'il est toujours possible pour les prêtres qui le désiraient, d'intégrer l'unité de l'Eglise catholique.

Les autorités de la Fraternité Saint-Pie X ont rendu un jugement d'expulsion à l'encontre des abbés Laguérie, responsable de la paroisse de Saint-Eloi à Bordeaux (France), et Héry son "avocat", le 5 septembre 2004. L'abbé Laguérie avait écrit une lettre à une quarantaine de ses confrères, décrivant la situation catastrophique de certains séminaires de la fraternité, comme ceux d'Ecône ou de Zaitzkoffen. Concernant le séminaire d'Ecône, sur une promotion de 15 séminaristes, seul un prêtre devrait être ordonné en 2005.

Dans sa lettre, l'abbé Laguérie, prêtre de cette communauté depuis 25 ans, dénonce "une surenchère à la sévérité et à l'autorité qui pourrait mettre la fraternité dans une situation grave".

Mgr Bernard Fellay qui dirige la fraternité, au moins jusqu'aux prochaines élections prévues en 2006, a condamné cette remise en cause, et sanctionné l'abbé, lui proposant de s'exiler au Mexique. Ce que l'intéressé a refusé.
En attendant, à Rome, on observe avec "tristesse" cette situation de crise interne et de scission. Dans les milieux proches du dossier, on explique que "cette petite Eglise indépendante se trouve devant un constat d'échec" et "devant une situation bloquée". On ajoute: "Il n'y a pas d'instance supérieure leur permettant de faire appel suite à cette décision d'expulsion", qui a été prise "à la manière militaire d'un autre siècle". Cette situation de dissidence est "relativement courante", affirme-t-on encore, "en particulier aux Etats-Unis où se forment ainsi des petites congrégations sans attaches".

Dialogue et souplesse

Au Vatican, on affirme aussi qu'il est "toujours possible de faire en sorte que les prêtres dits 'vagui' - c'est à dire sans mission canonique et sans incardination - soient intégrés dans l'unité de l'Eglise". On précise aussi que les prêtres séparés du Saint-Siège qui souhaitent entrer dans le giron de l'Eglise doivent prendre "une attitude filiale vis-à-vis du successeur de Pierre", et accepter "de dialoguer souplement avec les évêques". Inversement, on insiste aussi sur la souplesse du Saint-Siège et sur "le désir d'unité" qui doit primer.
La création d'un oratoire de Saint-Philippe Néri en Allemagne est donnée en exemple. Créée au mois de mai 2004, cette institution a pu voir le jour avec la collaboration de la commission du Saint-Siège "Ecclesia Dei", et de l'archevêché de Berlin. Le prêtre, les diacres et les séminaristes qui composent cet institut viennent d'Ecône, l'un des séminaires de la Fraternité. On souligne encore que dans le diocèse de Campos, au Brésil, où la fraternité Saint-Jean-Marie-Vianney est revenue sous l'autorité de Rome en janvier 2002, "la situation est très bonne, la collaboration fonctionne bien dans le diocèse, et un évêque voisin lui demande même des prêtres et des collaborations".

* * * * *

While the Holy See affirms they are not able to officially comment, nor propose legal assistance, they do affirm though that it is always possible for the priests who so wish, to be reunited with the catholic church. The Vatican also affirms it is still possible for those priests - in other words without canonical mission and without incardination - to be integrated into the unity of the church. More precisely, the priests, separated from the Holy See who wish to return to the church must take a filial attitude vis-a-vis the successor of Peter and accept to speak freely with the bishops.

Conversely, one also insists on the flexibility of the Holy See and the desire of unity which must precede. The creation of an oratoire of St. Philip Neri in Germany, is given as an example. Created in the month of May 2004, this institution saw the light of day with the collaboration of Ecclesia Dei and the archbishop of Berlin. The priest, deacons and seminarians who make up this institut come from Econe, one of the SSPX seminaries. We remind also that in the diocese of Campos, Brazil, where the fraternity of St. Jean Marie Vianney was restored under the authority of Rome, in January 2002, the situation is very good, the collaboration works well in the diocese and a nearby bishop is asking for priests and other assistance.

29 posted on 09/20/2004 12:48:15 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: charliemarlow
In other words, might it be a disaster for the Faith if SSPX splinters apart before the Holy See comes to its senses?

I don't see how.

30 posted on 09/20/2004 12:52:07 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Dominick
You showed with the face of the world where was the respect for priesthood and priesthood out of grass, seminarists.

Babelfish translations are hilarious!

31 posted on 09/20/2004 12:53:42 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: NYer
Do the priests need to agree to concelebration and the Novus Ordo and can this all be undone in a sweep of the hand by someone in Rome or a local bishop? Can they perform other rites according to pre-Vatican II rules?
Must the priests promise not to evangelize? Must they swear fidelity to Vatican II, a pastoral council?
I hope that the Holy See will be forthcoming and make a clear guarantee. Rightly or wrongly, there is a great deal of distrust. People look at the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as a likely scenario rather than the ones listed.
We need these folks in the mainstream Church.
32 posted on 09/20/2004 12:58:40 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: NYer

I think the expulsion of Fr. Aulagnier and the SSPX's increased intransigence and hate-filled anti-Papal rhetoric since have demonstrated that the SSPX is simply not interested in reconciling with a fully orthodox and legitimate Supreme Pontiff. I pray that they would see sense, but I am not hopeful.


33 posted on 09/20/2004 1:02:35 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: charliemarlow
Do the priests need to agree to concelebration and the Novus Ordo and can this all be undone in a sweep of the hand by someone in Rome or a local bishop? Can they perform other rites according to pre-Vatican II rules? Must the priests promise not to evangelize? Must they swear fidelity to Vatican II, a pastoral council?

I am no authority on this. How is things done in Campos?

34 posted on 09/20/2004 1:42:22 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: charliemarlow; sinkspur; marshmallow
In other words, might it be a disaster for the Faith if SSPX splinters apart before the Holy See comes to its senses?

Huh? I think you have this backwards.

35 posted on 09/20/2004 1:44:20 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Unam Sanctam; Tantumergo; sinkspur; marshmallow
From The Wanderer - 2003

"Why I Favor Our Superiors Legalizing Our Situation In The Church"

36 posted on 09/20/2004 1:55:41 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: charliemarlow

There is no fear that SSPX was right. If it splinters, it goes the way of most schisms. Splintered or not, it is irrelevant to Roman Catholicism unless and until it submits in humility to His Holiness. Otherwise, it remains in outer darkness.


37 posted on 09/20/2004 2:09:42 PM PDT by BlackElk ( Ketchupboy delenda est.)
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To: Tantumergo
Re: "That is my fear. If they fragment into smaller groups, traditionalists will be easier to pick off by the liberal bishops' conferences. The time maybe approaching when they need to consider some accommodation with Rome in order carry on the fight effectively"

Fear not.

There was a story a Seminarian, attending the SSPX Winona MN Seminary, told me about Archbishop Lefebvre. Before the saintly Archbishop died we was praying. After he stopped some of his seminarians asked him what he prayed for. "That all the priests in the society who do not support what we are trying to do will just leave"

Perhaps he is still praying for this in heaven.

I can not understand reconciling with Rome now, not now. In what manner has things improved? Has the Vatican stated Assisi was a mistake and a scandal to faith? Has the shame of the child abuse scandal been dealt with firmness? Is reverence returning to liturgical practice? Have pro-abortion priests been removed and threatened with excommunication or is this only reserved for Lefebvrites? Has a clear majority of Bishops spoken with a clear voice that pro-abortion politicians are cooperating with evil? I could bore you with more and more questions that would reflect improvement or the lack there of, but I think you see my point.

If you can answer with a clear and confident voice "yes" (no choking now) to these questions than then yes it is time to make peace with Rome.

If you can not, then pray they leave SSPX and the sooner the better.
38 posted on 09/20/2004 2:11:04 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: charliemarlow; ninenot; GirlShortstop; Marcellinus; sandyeggo
The FSSP IS in the mainstream Church since its founding as its priests returned to the Church on that occasion.

SSPX is in no position to make demands. The door is open to them if they wish to return to the Church but the pope has no obligation to purport to bargain away the powers and authority of the papacy in order to reward illicit and excommunicated bishops, any more than Pope St. Pius V had the authority to bind his successors on prudential matters such as banning any changes of liturgy as he purported to do in Quo Primum.

39 posted on 09/20/2004 2:15:21 PM PDT by BlackElk ( Ketchupboy delenda est.)
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To: NYer
Not a very useful post on an English language website, would you not agree? Perhaps you meant it to be in Ecclesiastical Latin?
40 posted on 09/20/2004 2:17:30 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Mark in the Old South

Good point. I pray that the hearts of the rock-solid conservatives be softened and that they return to Christ's Church.

And yes, I also pray that Rome be much more faithful to the truth than it has been lately.

May they be one.


41 posted on 09/20/2004 2:20:06 PM PDT by dangus
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To: BlackElk
any more than Pope St. Pius V had the authority to bind his successors on prudential matters such as banning any changes of liturgy as he purported to do in Quo Primum.

Just a note - the language in "Quo Primum" was usual for pontifical documents of that time. It was never meant to impose an obligation on Pius' successors - he knew very well that he could do no such thing.

42 posted on 09/20/2004 2:23:20 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: Unam Sanctam
Re: "I think the expulsion of Fr. Aulagnier and the SSPX's increased intransigence and hate-filled anti-Papal rhetoric since have demonstrated that the SSPX is simply not interested in reconciling with a fully orthodox and legitimate Supreme Pontiff. I pray that they would see sense, but I am not hopeful."

Allow me to fix the typos in the above post.

I think the expulsion of Fr. Aulagnier and the SSPX's justifiable intransigence and firm calls for return to Catholic doctrine since have demonstrated that the SSPX is simply not interested in reconciling with an unorthodox and erroneous, even though, legitimate Supreme Pontiff. I pray the Vatican will see sense, but I am not hopeful.
43 posted on 09/20/2004 2:28:34 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Mark in the Old South

Here we go again. Please cite exactly where the current Pope has departed from Catholic doctrine, in other words, where the Pope has reversed any defined dogma or any teaching of the ordinary and universal magisterium on the Deposit of Faith as contained in Scripture and Sacred Tradition.


44 posted on 09/20/2004 2:32:05 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: NYer
The Church must maintain its traditions. We are much richer than Vatican II documents.
We also must be allowed to question whether ecumenism and interfaith dialogue do more harm than good.
We must be allowed to ask if the wasteland that has grown since Vatican II is because of it or in spite of it.
And, most important, we must worship God in the manner He deserves and preserve the Catholic Faith from those who are working, from inside and outside, to destroy it. Otherwise, it will exist as a handful of underground. Non?
45 posted on 09/20/2004 2:37:47 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: BlackElk
Since one pope cannot bind another, even in the strongest terms imaginable, then we can look forward to a full correction of the items in Tantumergo's e-mail.
But, wait, no one anywhere ever said Quo Primum was nullified! It's still in effect!
46 posted on 09/20/2004 2:42:09 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: BlackElk; Land of the Irish; pro Athanasius; thor76; AlbionGirl; Pio; pascendi; ultima ratio; ...
Clarification to BlackElk

Excuse me are you posting? I thought you did not wish to be pinged? I assure you I do not want to ping you but if you wish to post on the public forum you had best post something that NO ONE would want to comment upon.

In case you did not understand me before allow me to clear up a possible misunderstanding. You do not dictate a conservation nor are you entitled to control who speaks and when or what the content will be. I do not know that is what you intended, but just to be on the safe side I want to clear that little issue up. If you post you are giving invitation to one and all.

If you do not reply to this I will understand and will not trouble you further. I won't even comment on you post.
47 posted on 09/20/2004 2:43:26 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: sinkspur; GratianGasparri

On the OTHER thread pertinent to this affair, it was stated that some Diocesan tribunal HAD stepped in.

Evidently the fog and smoke is quite thick.


48 posted on 09/20/2004 2:52:21 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Unam Sanctam
Correction:

Here we go again. Please cite exactly where the SSPX has committed a schismatic act as per canon law, in other words, where the SSPX has departed from any defined dogma or any teaching of the ordinary and universal magisterium on the Deposit of Faith as contained in Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

By all means you go first my good sir.
49 posted on 09/20/2004 2:53:40 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Mark in the Old South

Well, they refuse to allow altar girls.


50 posted on 09/20/2004 3:09:19 PM PDT by charliemarlow
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