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Karl I Beatification Causes Uproar
Yahoo! News (AP ) ^ | 9/28/2004 | William J. Kole

Posted on 09/28/2004 11:49:03 AM PDT by Pyro7480

Karl I Beatification Causes Uproar

By WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press Writer

VIENNA, Austria - Some think he's already a saint for seeking a peaceful end to World War I. Others think he's a scoundrel for commanding troops who used poison gas and for mounting two bloody comeback attempts.

On Sunday, Pope John Paul II is to beatify Karl I, but the Vatican's decision to put Austria's last reigning emperor on the road to sainthood has triggered a spirited political and religious debate at home.

Austria's government has come under fire for its plans to send a high-profile delegation to Rome. And the Roman Catholic Church has been ridiculed for the miracle it attributes to Karl: a Brazilian nun whose varicose veins were healed after she prayed to the monarch.

"As an active Catholic, I protest the beatification of Emperor Karl," said Rudolf Stanzel, among believers who think the Vatican is making a mistake. "The church is standing on the side of wealth and power."

Karl I's supporters have worked for 55 years to get the emperor beatified, the final step before possible sainthood. He is among five people the pope will beatify this weekend.

Karl I, sometimes called Charles I in the West, took the throne in 1916 and worked for peace as the Austro-Hungarian Empire neared its end. He abdicated at the end of the war and died in Portugal in 1922 at age 34.

The Vatican, which last December formally attributed a miracle to Karl I — one of several necessary steps for beatification — in April approved the emperor's "heroic virtue." Cardinal Jose Saraiva Martins, head of the Congregation of the Causes of Saints, said the monarch "served his people with justice and charity."

"He looked for peace, helped the poor, cultivated his spiritual life with commitment," he said.

Martin Kugler, spokesman for the Hapsburg royal family that ruled Austria-Hungary, said he can't understand what all the fuss is about.

"As emperor, Karl pushed a comprehensive social program," Kugler told the Austria Press Agency. "He appointed the world's first social affairs minister and protected tenants and children. He instituted worker protections and a family's right to social security. The essence of these measures remain in place today."

Critics contend Karl I is a poor choice because as emperor, he had ultimate command responsibility for troops who used poison gas on the Italian front, although historians say he sought to limit its use, angering his own military command.

Some scoff at the miracle the Vatican credits to Karl I. The Vatican says a cloistered nun in Brazil was cured after praying for his beatification in the 1970s; Austrian church leaders say she suffered from a debilitating case of varicose veins.

Others note that Karl I made two attempts to regain power by force after the monarchy was abolished in 1918 as part of the settlement ending World War I, and that several dozen people were killed in street fighting on both occasions.

The emperor and his family were placed on a ship under British escort and taken to the Portuguese island of Madeira, where he died of pneumonia.

"Karl was a weak, uncertain young man who was dependent on those around him," historian Brigitte Hamann told the magazine Profil, which examined the debate in a cover story headlined: "The Emperor Karl Comedy."

"I'm against the constant trashing of the Hapsburg family — but do we really need to beatify him?" asked Herbert Schreibner, a leader of the rightist Freedom Party.

The government's decision to send a delegation led by parliament speaker Andreas Khol, Health Minister Maria Rauch-Kallat and other top officials has been criticized as a violation of the separation of church and state. President Heinz Fischer, who as a university student worked to block the return from exile of Karl I's widow, Princess Zita, asked Khol to go in his stead.

Khol defended his decision to attend the ceremony. "I am no monarchist — I am a Republican," he told Austrian radio Tuesday.

Karl I "sought peace and led a religious life with decisiveness," Khol said, insisting that "church and state are in all instances separate" in overwhelmingly Catholic Austria.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: austria; beatification; catholic; emperor; karl; pope; worldwari
Austrian "Catholics" (socialists) opposing the beatification of a monarch... who would have thunk it? :-P

There are two inaccuracies in the article. Karl I never abdicated, and he never insisted that church and state be separate in all instances.

1 posted on 09/28/2004 11:49:06 AM PDT by Pyro7480
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; broadsword; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 09/28/2004 11:49:53 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480

Karl Rove is gonna be beatified? OH MAN... The Left is gonna absolutely go nuts...!!!!

Oh. Sorry. Wrong Karl.


3 posted on 09/28/2004 11:54:26 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Pyro7480
Otto von Hapsburg, the scion of the family has held office for years in the EC, and is a possible choice for a future president of the EU, or Unholy Roman Empire.

So9

4 posted on 09/28/2004 11:55:39 AM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Screwing the Inscrutable or is it Scruting the Inscrewable?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

LOL! Karl Rove isn't dead yet. ;-)


5 posted on 09/28/2004 11:55:42 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480

Now they'll REALLY be disappointed!


6 posted on 09/28/2004 11:56:41 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Pyro7480
said Rudolf Stanzel, among believers who think the Vatican is making a mistake.

Beatification is an infallible act, making the above "believer" a non-believer.

7 posted on 09/28/2004 12:11:54 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan

8 posted on 09/28/2004 12:49:12 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Aquinasfan

Yes, exactly.


9 posted on 09/28/2004 12:55:23 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: Pyro7480
And the Roman Catholic Church has been ridiculed for the miracle it attributes to Karl: a Brazilian nun whose varicose veins were healed after she prayed to the monarch.

LOL

10 posted on 09/28/2004 1:04:09 PM PDT by Stubborn (It is the Mass that matters)
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To: Pyro7480; B-Chan; Guelph4ever; Goetz_von_Berlichingen; ELS; Askel5; Vox Clamantis
Thanks for posting this important article. Who do these politicians think they are? Notice that it's not just the socialists--even the "rightist" politician quoted opposes the beatification. Hardly surprising, given that the illegitimate government they all serve owes its existence to the destruction of the Habsburg monarchy (accomplished partly by the U.S. under the evil Woodrow Wilson, I might add).

"As an active Catholic, I protest the beatification of Emperor Karl," said Rudolf Stanzel, among believers who think the Vatican is making a mistake. "The church is standing on the side of wealth and power."

This deplorable attitude is the logical result of that disaster known as Vatican II, when Rome foolishly decided to attempt to "come to terms with the new era inaugurated in 1789" (Cardinal Ratzinger's words). The monarchical trappings of the papacy and its traditional alliance with monarchism (tentative since the otherwise great Pope Leo XIII foolishly urged French Catholics to accept the Republic in the 1890s) were tragically abandoned, with the result that today the vast majority of the world's Catholics simply have no concept of sacramental monarchy or the sacred union of "Altar and Throne." Sadly, I observe that even some traditionalists are thoroughly Americanist and republican in their politics, with no sense of longing for the great Catholic, monarchical civilization that was Christendom.

Incidentally, despite being a lifelong non-TV watcher, I am planning to finally get cable this week, initially so that I can watch the beatification mass on Sunday. I see from the EWTN website that they will also broadcast an interview with two of the Emperor's descendants, Archduke Lorenz and Archduke Rudolf.

EWTN: Television Highlights

Will others here be watching this as well?

Hoch Habsburg!

(B-Chan, I always love your graphics.)

11 posted on 09/28/2004 3:49:53 PM PDT by royalcello
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To: Pyro7480
There are two inaccuracies in the article. Karl I never abdicated, and he never insisted that church and state be separate in all instances.

I think you may have misread the last sentence:

Karl I "sought peace and led a religious life with decisiveness," Khol said, insisting that "church and state are in all instances separate" in overwhelmingly Catholic Austria.

I would interpret the second clause as referring to the speaker (Andreas Khol), not the emperor. In other words, Mr. Kohl praised the emperor, and then Mr. Kohl (not the emperor) insisted that church and state are separate in today's Austria.

12 posted on 09/28/2004 4:04:23 PM PDT by royalcello
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To: royalcello

"Sadly, I observe that even some traditionalists are thoroughly Americanist and republican in their politics, with no sense of longing for the great Catholic, monarchical civilization that was Christendom."


Yes, I have noticed that. Such a great contradiction! No kings, no aristocracy, just lowly democrats putting crosses on bits of paper every few years. For what, I wonder. Certainly not for the glory of God!


13 posted on 09/28/2004 4:16:05 PM PDT by Wessex
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To: royalcello
Will others here be watching this as well?

I'm sure gonna try, there has GOT to be more to the miracle than vericose veins on a nun. - thanks for posting the TV schedule

What ever happened to needing three miracles? Anyone know?

14 posted on 09/28/2004 4:34:02 PM PDT by Stubborn (It is the Mass that matters)
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To: royalcello
Hardly surprising, given that the illegitimate government they all serve owes its existence to the destruction of the Habsburg monarchy (accomplished partly by the U.S. under the evil Woodrow Wilson, I might add).

I do appreciate the pope beatifying the last Catholic emperor. I think he's trying to tell us something, here.

15 posted on 09/28/2004 5:34:21 PM PDT by NeoCaveman (Day 20, and the pajamahadeen still demands Dan Rather be fired)
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To: Pyro7480

Thanks for posting this (and thanks to RoyalCello for passing it along).

It amazes me that anyone claiming to be a good Catholic can protest the beatification of anyone by the Holy Father.

Furthermore, I find it horrific that it is implied Emperor Charles tried to impose himself by force on an unwilling people. All he did was try to regain the position which, even according to the Hungarian government in power at the time, he ALREADY held -Apostolic King of Hungary.

Regardless though, had his attempt actually been a military effort (which it was not) there is nothing wrong with using force if need be to correct an injustice. I wonder if these same "devout" Catholics would condemn the martyrs of the Catholic and Royal Army of the Vendee, the Carlistos of Spain, the Cristeros of Mexico or any of the armies fighting to restore the rule of the Hapsburg monarchs during the Protestant Revolution in central Europe?

Maybe so, they've already seemed to turn against the Crusaders and the great Queen Isabella the Catholic of Spain.


16 posted on 09/28/2004 5:48:33 PM PDT by Guelph4ever (“Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et tibi dabo claves regni coelorum”)
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To: Stubborn
What ever happened to needing three miracles? Anyone know?

As far as I know, the process for beatification and canonization was simplified around the time the Code of Canon Law was revised (early 1980's). I think it was three miracles that used to be necessary for canonization, but "they" reduced that. The devil's advocate was eliminated, too.

The standards for becoming a saint have been lowered which has been partly responsible for the significant increase in beatifications and canonizations recently. It seems to me that whenever a famous Catholic dies, that someone begins a cause for their sainthood.

17 posted on 09/28/2004 7:27:01 PM PDT by ELS
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To: B-Chan

Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze
Unsern Kaiser, unser Land!
Mächtig durch des Glaubens Stütze,
Führ er uns mit weiser Hand!
Laßt uns seiner Väter Krone
Schirmen wider jeden Feind!
Innig bleibt mit Habsburgs Throne
Österreichs Geschick vereint!

Fromm und bieder, wahr und offen
Laßt für Recht und Pflicht uns stehn;
Laßt, wenn's gilt, mit frohem Hoffen
Muthvoll in den Kampf uns gehen,
Eingedenk der Lorbeerreiser,
Die das Heer so oft sich wand
Gut und Blut für unsern Kaiser,
Gut und Blut fürs Vaterland!

Was der Bürger Fleiß geschaffen,
Schütze treu des Kriegers Kraft;
Mit des Geistes heit'ren Waffen
Siege Kunst und Wissenschaft!
Segen sei dem Land beschieden
Und sein Ruhm dem Segen gleich:
Gottes Sonne strahl in Frieden
Auf ein glücklich Österreich!

Laßt uns fest zusammenhalten,
In der Eintracht liegt die Macht;
Mit vereinter Kräfte Walten
Wird das Schwerste leicht vollbracht.
Laßt uns Eins durch Brüderbande
Gleichem Ziel entgegengehn;
Heil dem Kaiser, Heil dem Lande,
Österreich wird ewig stehn!

Blessed Karl von Habsburg, pray for us, for Christian Europe, and for all Kings and Princes who rule by the Grace of God.

O Everlasting God, who hast ordained and constituted the services of Angels and men in a wonderful order: Mercifully grant that as thy holy Angels alway do thee service in heaven, so by thy appointment they may succour and defend us on earth.

18 posted on 09/28/2004 7:52:39 PM PDT by John Locke
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To: Aquinasfan
Beatification is an infallible act...

Bunk. Post evidence from a reliable source backing your claim.

19 posted on 09/28/2004 8:31:29 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: royalcello; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

There is really nothing to be amazed at here - the opposition to Karl? There is no such thing as a good Catholic king, much less a Catholic country.

Such is masonic policy, followed by those who are in the brotherhood, and those who ape its prestigeous membership & their approval.

This is the same thinking upon which the partition of Poland was based. This is the same thinking which makes people hate offically hate Catholic kings in general.

For to praise Karl, and elevate him to the honors of the altar causes confusion with our history texts. After all, we must teach our children that monarchy is bad -very bad. And that Wilson and FDR were very, very good. Of course, you may not say a word against them.

We are of course evil - as Catholic traditionalists- to want Catholic civilisation and monarchs.

As one who is descendant from the subjects of the Hapsburg empire, I thank God that Karl is to be beatified.


20 posted on 09/28/2004 9:23:17 PM PDT by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux!)
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To: thor76
"This is the same thinking upon which the partition of Poland was based."

How so? I was under the impression that Poland was partitioned because the nature of its elective monarchy made it a tripwire for war in eastern Europe, especially since one faction invariably had the support of the Bourbons.

21 posted on 09/28/2004 9:36:22 PM PDT by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: Fifthmark
Beatification is not an infallible act.

Canonization is, however.

22 posted on 09/28/2004 9:45:19 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Fifthmark
PAPAL INFALLIBILITY AND CANONIZATION

Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative. It is the opinion of St. Antoninus, Melchior Cano, Suarez, Bellarmine, Bañez, Vasquez, and, among the canonists, of Gonzales Tellez, Fagnanus, Schmalzgrüber, Barbosa, Reiffenstül, Covarruvias (Variar. resol., I, x, no 13), Albitius (De Inconstantiâ in fide, xi, no 205), Petra (Comm. in Const. Apost., I, in notes to Const. I, Alex., III, no 17 sqq.), Joannes a S. Thomâ (on II-II, Q. I, disp. 9, a. 2), Silvester (Summa, s. v. Canonizatio), Del Bene (De Officio Inquisit. II, dub. 253), and many others. In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet. This infallibility, however according to the holy doctor, is only a point of pious belief. Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith (Arriaga, De fide, disp. 9, p. 5, no 27); others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Suarez (De fide, disp. 5 p. 8, no 8); many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.

What is the object of this infallible judgment of the pope? Does he define that the person canonized is in heaven or only that he has practiced Christian virtues in an heroic degree? I have never seen this question discussed; my own opinion is that nothing else is defined than that the person canonized is in heaven. The formula used in the act of canonization has nothing more than this:

"In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast." (Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)

23 posted on 09/29/2004 3:21:47 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan

All irrelevant to the discussion. Scroll down a little further in that Catholic Encyclopedia article and you will find the following statement:

"This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification..."

...which is what I was saying all along.


24 posted on 09/29/2004 3:44:22 AM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: John Locke

Amen!

Was für schöne Lied! Danke schön.

Das Heilige Römanische Reich, der Deutscher Nation, Doppelkröne und Heilge Kirche für immer und ewige. Hoch Habsburg!


25 posted on 09/29/2004 8:48:45 AM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: ELS
The standards for becoming a saint have been lowered which has been partly responsible for the significant increase in beatifications and canonizations recently.

This is really too bad, because then when a truly deserving candidate like Emperor Karl comes along, it doesn't seem to mean quite as much.

26 posted on 09/29/2004 9:42:19 AM PDT by royalcello
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To: Pyro7480
Beatification and canonisation of those in public life is always a joy to me. It demonstrates that leaders do not have to be fast-talking egomaniacs and serves as a model for those called to lead countries, cities and towns.

Rather than bickering about the political correctness of this decision, these people should stop talking for a while and study the life and works of this man. They might learn something to their advantage.

27 posted on 09/29/2004 9:45:10 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: Guelph4ever
It amazes me that anyone claiming to be a good Catholic can protest the beatification of anyone by the Holy Father.

Well....I think there may have been some legitimate questions about Fr. Josemaria Escriva of Opus Dei. I've read some disturbing things, about him (he had a terrible temper and could be viciously cruel to subordinates), his organization (regarded by many devout Catholics as having cultlike tendencies), and his canonization process (the only witnesses to his "miracles" were Opus Dei doctors) from respectable, Catholic sources. At the very least, he was not as obviously deserving of the honor as Emperor Karl.

As I said in my previous post, I wish that there had not been so many beatifications and canonizations recently due to lowered standards; it would make the Emperor stand out more if this were a rarer event, as it used to be.

28 posted on 09/29/2004 9:50:15 AM PDT by royalcello
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To: Fifthmark
Does that mean if most theologians think contraception is not a grave sin, it is not sinful? Do you know of any authentic magisterial documents that prove your point?

The newadvent site claims there are some who hold that beatification is infallible.
29 posted on 09/29/2004 10:22:31 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: johnb2004

One of the requirements for a papal teaching to be infallible is the intent to bind upon the entire Church (see Vatican I, Papal Infallibility). This is typically not met with beatifications, which grant worship to certain people or places and do not extend the cult to the entire Church. Therefore, beatifications are not infallible.


30 posted on 09/29/2004 1:03:36 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: Guelph4ever
Pope John Paul II is to beatify Karl I

If there's proper basis, then fine. But you don't understand. All of these beatifications under the reign of JP II will, someday, have to be revoked and reconsidered. The process is out of control, without checks and balances. And repentant, wise, holy and Saintly people are mixed in with those who may not be. They will have to start over, in future, re-reform the system, and take it all seriously - which they have not done under JP II.

I understand, completely, that you completely disagree.

31 posted on 09/30/2004 2:34:06 AM PDT by sevry
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To: royalcello

I don't know much about Opus Dei, thought having a short-temper is not at all uncommon among the saintly (Padre Pio being a fine example). I guess I always assumed that if the Spanish republicans tried to kill him, he must have been doing something right.

Everyone has their supporters and detractors, I've never read enough about Escriva to be definite one way or the other.


32 posted on 09/30/2004 11:14:06 AM PDT by Guelph4ever (“Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et tibi dabo claves regni coelorum”)
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To: sevry

The only ones that make me a little nervous are the mass canonizations (often involving martyrs). I wonder sometimes if they truly take into account all of the facts surrounding these events and if the people in question really died for Christ or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. In cases like this, there were doubtless martyrs among them, but when so many are canonized en masse it does make me a tad uncomfortable.


33 posted on 09/30/2004 11:17:31 AM PDT by Guelph4ever (“Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et tibi dabo claves regni coelorum”)
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To: marshmallow
...people should stop talking for a while and study the life and works of this man. They might learn something to their advantage.

BUMP
34 posted on 09/30/2004 11:27:24 AM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
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