Skip to comments.Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend
Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542
Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)
I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)
Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.
BTW, it's not nice to refer to another poster without pinging them.
Christ saved all of us but it is up to each individual to receive His gift.
You are correct about prayers and as I now retire to bed, I shall include him.
Have a good night and a Merry Christmas!
Thank you, same to you. :)
However, there is not much hope of your understanding it all unless you are willing to read - without bias -the entire Torah, Prophets and the B'rit Chadasha (renewed convenant).
In Isaiah 53, a portion of scripture that is rarely if ever read in synagogue, the prophet speaks of the suffering servant (Yeshua - which translated means 'and he will save his people from their sin').
If you will read and consider who this servant might be, comparing both Jewish writings AND respected Christian commentaries, you will be hard pressed to come to any conclusion other than that Yeshua is the Messiah. No other explanation is borne out by Scripture, and the Rabinnic explanations generally obfuscate the issue and generally contradict themselves in the process.
Regarding the Rapture (harpatzo in the Greek, meaning to "catch away") it is prophesied to occur "when the fullness of the gentiles be come in".
The nation of Israel was to be "a light to the Gentiles", but they failed. The church is supposed to bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they also failed. The church is trending that way now, but many still follow a "replacement theology" wherein the term "Israel" is spiritualized and the church has redefined itself as "spiritual Israel" - even though Romans 9,10 & 11 make it unmistakably clear that G-d will never forsake his people. The book of Daniel, most notably Chapters 9 and 12, Daniel is given visions from G-d, through His messenger Michael, of the unfolding history up to and including the "end-times". And in Chap. 12, Verse 1, Michael says "and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a naiton even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Which book would that be? The Lamb's Book of Life - written in Yeshua's blood that was shed for the whole world, as well as for His people Israel, most of whome, heartbreakingly, rejected His messiaship.
The "time of trouble" is the "time of Jacob's trouble - a time the church refers to as the great tribulation. It is at the end of that time that the plan of redemption will come to its fulfilment in Yeshua's return to claim of his people - those who have accepted his identity as Redeemer and L-d of L-ds, the one who reconciles the world to the G-dhead. At that time there will be neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather only each individual's belief in Him, and in His purpose for being born, crucified and resurrected.
If you will examine ALL of the evidence, you will be able to come to your own conclusion. Hope this helps.
>Indeed, it is. This is why people like Bandaneira need our
>understanding, patience and prayers. Afterall, Christ died
>for him too.
Christians are redeened BY the REDEEMER! And belief that the Christ died for us and living as we should,is how we are saved.You said something akin to that,hence,you discredited /refuted yourself. LOL
If you don't believe that, you most certainly are not a Christian.
That's not an optional belief.
It's as fundamental as any principle of Christianity.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but your understanding of orthodox Christian theology is sorely lacking.
Real Christians pray that all people are saved. Jesus did not teach us to pray our enemies go to hell.
Someone asked about the RAPTURE,which is not Biblical prophesy;"THE RAPTURE" isn't in the Bible. It's a relatively "new" idea,which was an extrapolation on Revelations and goodness knows what else.
What do you imagine bothers me...the Second Coming,or some tinfoil Christian fiction? Take your choice.Here's a hint,it isn't the former. :-)
Interesting concepts. But may I ask, how do you decide what is "evil"? If I slap you in the face, you might get upset. But in my universe, slapping is perfectly acceptable, and besides, you have no rights in my universe, only I do So YOU are the evil one for trying to stop me from exercising my right to follow my "good" beliefs.
Also, what do you mean by "divinity"???? Please define the term.
How about "redeem" - redeem from what? And exactly what is the "course of human history"? And if you have the power to "change" it, you can only prove that by revealing what was to be versus the "changed" version.Can you do that? And exactly what's being "changed"?
Why not read the oldest source book on human history - the Bible - and see exactly how history can be written in advance?
I am a Christian,though many so called Christians on FR,make me wonder if they are.
Reread what I wrote and if you are still in a quandary,get someone with better comprehension skills to explain it to you.
You need to do some reading in your Bible, you are embarrassing yourself.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we
ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Read post # 112
People like you,who make ridiculous statements,such as "you need to do some reading in your Bible",for example. You have no idea if I've ever read the Bible,or how many times I've read.LOL
The historical fact is,generation after generation have thought that they were living in the "END TIMES",since Jesus was crucified.They weren't. Will they come? When GOD sees fit.
OTOH,there is NOTHING at all in any scripture,which says what the modern novels say will happen and the RAPTURE stuff is NOT a universally Christian ethos/principle.
Good night, my friend. Keep studying your Bible
Good night and perhaps you should follow your own advice. ;^)
My understanding of Christianity is quite good,actually and is devoid of tinfoil...which is why I stay off the Religion here. ;^)
Now that is truly one the lamest excuses there is. Nice try but sorry dude but that don't cut it. If you can't back it up it don't mean nothing. We got plenty of time and plenty of bandwidth. So lay it out there. If you are really in the know why keep it a secret?
"Notice how low France is going..."
>Jews are God's people, and so are Christians. At the end of
>time, I think ( and hope ) He will slap you on the back, >and say "well done." I don't think minor theological
>difference matter much to a being so vastly higher than
This is what the New Testament says on this subject ...
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Real Christians don't think like that. This is how we pray for our enemies:
Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Enemies have driven me into your embrace more than friends have. Friends have bound me to earth, enemies have loosed me from earth and have demolished all my aspirations in the world.
Enemies have made me a stranger in worldly realms and an extraneous inhabitant of the world. Just as a hunted animal finds safer shelter than an unhunted animal does, so have I, persecuted by enemies, found the safest sanctuary, having ensconced myself beneath your tabernacle, where neither friends nor enemies can slay my soul.
Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
They, rather than I, have confessed my sins before the world. They have punished me, whenever I have hesitated to punish myself. They have tormented me, whenever I have tried to flee torments. They have scolded me, whenever I have flattered myself. They have spat upon me, whenever I have filled myself with arrogance.
Bless my enemies, O Lord, Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Whenever I have made myself wise, they have called me foolish.
Whenever I have made myself mighty, they have mocked me as though I were a dwarf.
Whenever I have wanted to lead people, they have shoved me into the background.
Whenever I have rushed to enrich myself, they have prevented me with an iron hand.
Whenever I thought that I would sleep peacefully, they have wakened me from sleep.
Whenever I have tried to build a home for a long and tranquil life, they have demolished it and driven me out. Truly, enemies have cut me loose from the world and have stretched out my hands to the hem of your garment.
Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Bless them and multiply them; multiply them and make them even more bitterly against me: so that my fleeing to You may have no return; so that all hope in men may be scattered like cobwebs; so that absolute serenity may begin to reign in my soul; so that my heart may become the grave of my two evil twins, arrogance and anger; so that I might amass all my treasure in heaven; ah, so that I may for once be freed from self-deception, which has entangled me in the dreadful web of illusory life.
Enemies have taught me to know what hardly anyone knows, that a person has no enemies in the world except himself. One hates his enemies only when he fails to realize that they are not enemies, but cruel friends. It is truly difficult for me to say who has done me more good and who has done me more evil in the world: friends or enemies. Therefore bless, O Lord, both my friends and enemies. A slave curses enemies, for he does not understand. But a son blesses them, for he understands. For a son knows that his enemies cannot touch his life. Therefore he freely steps among them and prays to God for them.
St Nikolai Velimirovich
Collecting your previous posts ...
>Wow, I don't think humankind deserves death and hell.
Please see http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~allenp/ORIGINALSIN.html
>No, Mike. Don't look at Jews for Jesus. It is a waste of
Here's the evidence in the Old Testament which points to the 1st century arrival of the messiah found http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html and http://yfiles.com/shiloh.html
>One does not need an intermediary to connect to the higher
If God ordained the priest of Psalms 110 to be our intermediary, then who are we to complain? Psalms 80:17 makes it clear that the individual at God's right hand is the Son of Man. Daniel 7:14 shows that the Son of Man will be given an everlasting kingdom. Jeremiah 23:6 tells us that in the days of this King, Judah shall be saved. "Saved" implies forgiveness of sin, which Zechariah 3:9 implies will be done through an engraving action on a stone with seven eyes. Zechariah 4:10 tells us that God Himself has seven eyes.
God informs us of his using "similitudes" in the speakings of the prophets in Hosea 12:10.
>Which one of the following sects best approximates your
>belief system/frame of reference ?
The New Testament, like the Old Testament, are the Word of God, because they say what happens thousands of years before they happen. What man builds on top of the Word of God, does not make the Word of God cease to be so. There could be a million incorrect sects of Christianity, and it still wouldn't transform God's truths and Word into lies.
Christianity can withstand the strongest scrutiny. I invite you to write me privately, and we can arrange to meet and lay out the evidence for and against Jesus Christ being Messiah and God.
I'm well aware of that, newbie.
And telling me to read someone else's post,which was directed to me anyway,using it as a way to trash me,without writing it yourself,is so SINFUL,as to be actually funny! LOL
You and the writer of that post have broken one of the ten commandments.Now how is THAT going to help you reach heaven? :-)
It's not and you don't You're just a nasty troll, really.
No, it isn't. In fact, everything from your mis-naming of the book of Revelation (no plural there), to your petulant claims that no one knows how much you read the Bible, fairly scream "light-weight." You might as well claim to be a sniper who can't recall bullet drops for a .308. And while you may not be embarrassed, it's only because you don't recognize how painfully obvious your lack of knowlege is to the rest of us.
There is one Apostolic Church -- with two Rites: East (Orthodox) and West (Roman Catholic) -- that has been around since the Pentecost, and She is no sect.
All others are whatever you want to call them. Get your facts straight.
Here are a few simple questions. Did Noah want a worldwide flood so he could build an ark? Did Abraham want to kill Isaac to obey God? Did Abraham want to see the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed to rescue Lot? Did Moses want want the angel of death to come and kill the first born so that Pharaoh would finally free the Israelites?
And YOU imagine that you are a "good" Christian? That's just too too funny for words.But that's what FR's religion threads always turn into...flame wars.And it's also why they are oh so boring to boot. LOL
This is by those who dispute a literal, bodily, personal, return to earth by Christ. Frankly, this is a result of disbelief in the Word of God (or the spiritualizing method of interpretation). The postmillenial view, popular among covenant theologians, teaches that the world through preaching of the Gospel will be Christianized and brought to sumission to the Gospel before the return of Christ. Those who hold to this view while holding to a literal second, follow the Old Testament teaching on the nature of the millenium kingdom. Amillenialists hold that there is no literal millenium on earth followed by a second advent. All the prophecies concerning the kingdom are being fullfilled in the inter-advent period spiritually by the church. In its most general characterization, amillenialists deny a literal 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth.
Two events are occuring in parallel post-rapture. For the church the first to occur is the judgement seat of Christ (also known as the bema seat), and then the marriage of the Lamb. Simultaneous with this is the Tribulation that occurs on earth. Many things occur during that time; the Book of Revelation illuminates that time in great detail.
Frankly, all these issues can be resolved through the use of proper hermeneutic and exegetical (reading out of, expounded by) interpretation of scripture. A no more satisfactory resolution can be made than a pre-trib rapture with a pre-millenial second advent of Christ. Any other doctrine is flawed, and is a result of improper hermeneutic and or an eisegetical (reading into or applying onto) interpretation of scripture.
So would attempting to be a Christian.
Knock it off. Make your claim good - stay off the Religion Forum.
You are posting to the wrong person.You need to direct your post to Bandaneira.
We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, NOT to pray for a war there. I've only heard this theory (about Chrisitans only siding with Jewish people because we want them in charge of Jerusalem to hasten the return of Christ) from those trying to drive a wedge between the two groups. I've NEVER heard this idea taught from any pulpit at any church I've attended or any teaching I've listened to. Most of what I've listened to is concerned with becoming Christ-like in life, dying daily to selfishness and self-centeredness and walking in love with your family and neighbors.
I don't know about other Christians, but whenever I meet a Jewish person, I have a genuine affection for them, and a real desire to understand their faith, because I think their faith sheds so much light on our own. I could go on for pages about all of the rich language in the Old Testament, which is vital for Christians to have an understanding of in order to more fully grasp our own heritage.
So, in answer to your very simple question:
No, I don't want a major war.
Christianity doesn't stand or fall upon the veracity of the Bible. Christianity stands or falls on whether or not Jesus Christ is whom He said He was. If Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, the blemishless lamb of God who comes to wash away the sins of the world, then the greatest movement since the invention of mankind is entirely predicated on a lie. Who would knowingly and willingly die for a lie (suffering excruciating torment and torture in the process)? All but one of the apostles died violent deaths. Furthermore, and that notwithstanding, the empty tomb needs a suitable explanation.
bookmark for latter
What do you have to say about the Hebrew Prophet Jonah, and The Book of Jonah?
With respect to part B), your reference to Christ's statement is totally yanked out of context. John 4:22 is part of Jesus' discourse with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:6-30). The salient point of John 4:21,22 is Christ's dealing with the Samaritan's attempt at going off on a rabbit trail.
Jacob's Well is at the foot of Mount Gerizim toward which she pointed. Sanballat erected a temple on this mountain which was destroyed by John Hyrcanus B.C. 129. Abraham (Ge 12:7) and Jacob (Ge 33:20) set up altars at Shechem. On Gerizim were proclaimed the blessings recorded in De 28:1-68. The Samaritan Pentateuch records an altar set up on Gerizim that is on Ebal (over 200 feet higher than Gerizim) in the Hebrew (De 27:4). The Samaritans held that Abraham offered up Isaac on Gerizim. The Samaritans kept up this worship on this mountain and a handful do it still. The woman felt that by raising this theological wrangle she would turn the attention of Jesus away from herself and perhaps get some light on the famous controversy.
Christ had just shocked and embaressed the living crap out of the woman in v18 (so as usually is done today by people who can't argue the facts, they attempt to change the subject). This is also an excellent example of how to deal with people like that when one is witnessing to them.
Anyways, Christ's response in v21 intimated that the worship of God will be emancipated from bondage to place (the temple). Both Jews and Samaritans are wrong as to the "necessity" for that. Jesus told this sinful woman one of his greatest truths with that statement.
In v22 Jesus answers her attempt at diversion directly. The Samaritans rejected the prophets and the Psalms and so cut themselves off from the fuller knowledge of God. Jesus is a Jew as he fully recognizes (Mt 15:24). The Jews, as the chosen people, had fuller revelations of God (Ps 147:19; Ro 9:3-5). But even so the Jews as a whole failed to recognize God in Christ (Josh 1:11,18; 7:26). For salvation is from the Jews (hoti hê sôtêria ek tôn Ioudaiôn estin). "The salvation," the Messianic salvation which had long been the hope and guiding star of the chosen people (Lk 1:69,71,77; Ac 13:26,47). It was for the whole world (Jn 3:17), but it comes "out of" (ek) the Jews. This tremendous fact should never be forgotten, however unworthy the Jews may have proved of their privilege. The Messiah, God's Son, was a Jew.
And with respect to part C), "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus" (#674 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church), I'm absolutely baffled and flabbergasted how the Roman Catholic Church derives that doctrine cited in #647 from the scripture cited in the footnotes. The first footnote to #647 (569) refers to Romans 11:20-26. Romans 11:20-26 is Paul's warning to the Gentile's in Rome, not to boast because of their privleges, lest they fall under condemnation. The condemnation that he was referencing was God's treatment of Israel (Rm 10:19-11:12), specifically with respect to the Jews stiff-neckedness and rejection of the Gospel. And so since God's chosen people were passed over, and salvation is come unto Gentiles (v11,12).
In Rm 11:26 Paul refers to "the Deliverer", making reference to something that was written in the Old Testament: Ps 14:7 and Isa 59:20,21. The footnote to the latter part of #637 of the Roman Catholic Catechism that drives this point home: Romans 11:12, 25. Paul is telling the Romans that the Jews would be blind until the "fullness of the Gentiles came." Cross references to this time are found in Lk 21:24 and Re 7:9. Clearly what scripture is intimating, that the Jews would remain blind until Christ comes again, but when he does return, they'll see the error of their ways and be saved (just like the Gentiles until then).
Your entire point is demonstrative of fundementaly unsound doctrine premised upon exremely sloppy hermeneutic.
"#647 from the scripture cited in the footnotes. The first footnote to #647" - substitute #647 with #674.
"The footnote to the latter part of #637 of the Roman Catholic Catechism" - substitute #637 with #674. Furthermore, the footnote for the last part of #674 is 572 (Rm 11:12,25).
I like that prayer.
Will have to copy it off and print it out.
Are you Russian Orthodox?
So according to you, what gives more weight to an argument aren't contents but the length of one's membership to FR.